People are so proud to declare unhinged lying as winning. Lowering standards.

[ProSense]

Calling Bulls--t on the Pundits

by mooremusings

So the punditocracy is declaring Full of Mitt the "winner" of tonight's debate. Romney was rude and mendacious throughout, whereas Obama was presidential. Obama stated his accomplishments clearly and deftly parried Romney's attacks. But Romney - as I saw one liberal commentator tweet - "crushed" Obama? Seriously? You've gotta be kidding me.

I've really had enough of this bulls--t.

I'm sick of seeing habitual liars and fast-talking con artists be taken seriously as leadership potential in this country.

I'm sick of seeing leading figures on the left wring their hands and unfairly nitpick Obama's performance - people who should know better.

I'm sick of seeing Obama's intellectualism - and intellectualism in general - constantly suspected, disrespected and derided.

I'm sick of the media making up crap just to manipulate public opinion.

I'm sick of being bombarded with propaganda disguised as political discourse.

I'm sick of seeing a culture elevate style over substance when it comes to our political leaders.

The pundit class mocked Al Gore. They crucified John Kerry. As a result, voters left reason behind and put a dangerous bumpkin in the Oval Office. Now, the chattering classes are skewering Obama for no good reason. When will American culture stop accepting mediocrity and incompetence, and start valuing reason and intelligence? When will thoughtfulness be seen as a sign of strength, rather than aggressiveness? When will we stop asking this question about a potential Commander-in-Chief, "Would I have a beer with this person?" and start asking, "Can this person skillfully lead a nation and help solve its problems?" When?

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/10/04/1139698/-Calling-Bulls-t-on-the-Pundits

Best commentary! Everyone talks about what's wrong with this country, that's it. People accepting bullshit as good and bullying as winning.

It's disgusting. This was a pyrrhic victory for Romney. He dazzled the audience with fast-talking bullshit. People ate it up, and now comes the puking. Yeah, you helped build that, just like the media built the very serious wonky Paul Ryan.

[annabanana]

1. BIG kick and No Kidding!. . .n/t

[greatauntoftriplets]

2. Well said.

Rmoney acted like he was on speed.

[seabeyond]

3. very good. and this is the message that needs to get out. why let the lies be a win? nt

[gademocrat7]

4. Amen!

[JoePhilly]

5. I think there will be some blow back on this. Mitt's lies were incredibly easy to spot.

Most people don't like it when you lie to their face.

[porphyrian]

6. . n/t

[Tigress DEM]

7. We DON'T NEED ANOTHER LIAR IN CHIEF - been there done that under *ush. No thanks.

[lalalu]

8. Patience grasshopper :)

I really like what you wrote and in fact I think it is one of the fallouts from this debate. Seeing how many people are angry at the outright lies by Romney is heartening. Let them crow and think they have won. Didn't Obama let Trump do the same? Then he came out with the facts and crushed him.

[Atypical Liberal]

9. The substance of what Romney said is not what made him "win".

Romney could have been talking about marshmallows last night.

This is not what made him "win" the debate.

What made him win was he sounded prepared.

He had talking points, and he hammered them at every opportunity, and decisively.

In short, he sounded like he knew what he was talking about.

Yes, you and I know that it is absurd that the head of the GOP can stand there with a straight face and say, "I'm not going to cut taxes for the wealthy!"

Yes, you and I know that it is absurd that the head of the GOP, the party that really doesn't give a shit about poor people, can stand up there and basically say, "Hey, I love Obamacare/Romneycare - as long as it is administered on the state level!"

You and I know that we need to invest in alternative energy, and it is a false dichotomy to say we have to choose between teachers and alternative energy, but when he gets up there and says, "For the money you spent on green energy you could have hired a million teachers, oh, and by the way, your campaign donors were benefiting from those investments," man, that shit sticks!

I'm annoyed with all the people saying that this was all just a "hang back" strategy from the President. I don't buy it. The president needs to act like an election is on the line, because it is.

Most of what was discussed last night was common talking points that just about anyone on this forum could address. The President needs to step up his game.

[Glitterati]

10. Well said

What I saw was a man (Obama) who couldn't defend himself, much less you and I.

THAT is the takeaway we should ALL be concerned about.

[seabeyond]

13. are you fuckin serious? he has accomplished a lot. not perfectly, but a lot. and women and gays

are especially appreciative of his defense. so how about i dont get on you pathetic band wagon as my rights are being attacked and the dems are the ones standing with me.

[Glitterati]

14. Yes, I'm dead fucking serious

But good luck with playing Mitt The Bully today.

[ProSense]

18. It's actually

"But good luck with playing Mitt The Bully today. "

...playing: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251118984

[seabeyond]

47. you throw out nonfactual garbage, i challenge you with truth and i am romney bully? more bullshit.

[Bohunk68]

61. Yuppers,

Mittens changes positions more than Snow White in bed with the Seven Dwarfs.

[Glitterati]

111. YOUR truth

not mine.

I hope you realize your bullying and bullshit accusations drive away many more voters than you gain.

It is YOUR version of YOUR truth driving voters away from Obama.

You can't BULLY people to vote for our guy.

on edit:
I just spent the last 3 hours converting a Romney supporter. And you spent the same time trying to drive us both away.

Good job!

You go!

[Indpndnt]

97. Good luck explaining away the 47% video. People won't forget that over a debate.

No matter how much you want them to.

[Glitterati]

113. My low information voter neighbor

Never heard of it.

Until I played it on my computer for him this afternoon.

[Indpndnt]

115. So he watches debates, yet has never seen the news or a commercial lately?

He isn't online, either? Yet he's a debate watcher? Lol

[Glitterati]

116. He didn't watch the debate

Did you miss that part about how he hates politics and politicians?

He likes Romney because he was a "businessman who might be able to fix this mess."

[Indpndnt]

118. He has made his decision with zero input based on Willard's profession?

Then why even bother reaching someone like that?

And I'm not bothering with your posts throughout this thread, so had no idea about your ignorant neighbor.

[Glitterati]

119. Because he's worth it!

Every human on this planet needs to vote FOR their own interests. Not against them.

He's hurting in every way - financially, has no job, can't pay for basic necessities for his babies.

I paid him $300.00 today for changing my oil, checking and replacing all the fluids, and replacing the front brake pads. After I bought the parts he would need.

I did that to give him respect so that I could pay his electric bill before they shut it off.

I want him to vote for Obama, because then, at least, he won't be voting for Mr. 47%.

He was stunned when I played that video for him.

And, frankly, we're actually speaking about every one of those 7 adults in that house.

If I can change 1 mind, I might be able to change all 7 of them.

[LondonReign2]

42. In determining who won the debate, past accomplishments are irrelevant

Obviously Obama and Democrats are light years better than the Neanderthals that represent the present day GOP when it comes to gay rights and women's rights. However, those subjects never came up in the debate.

Romney lied his fucking ass off, but the vast majority of Americans didn't know that in real time (because they aren't political geeks like us). Obama lost because he ceded the field and let Romney's lies go unchallenged.

[seabeyond]

45. What I saw was a man (Obama) who couldn't defend himself, much less you and I.

that implies/states obama cannot defend us. that is not correct. it is false. his history proves otherwise.

so.... that makes it bullshit. i was responding to a poster that threw out a bullshit line that really has little or nothing to do with the debate, but .... thinking.

[treestar]

73. the "vast majority of Americans"

aren't quite that stupid. That's saying they watched this debate only and decide based on this debate only. Like that was the only 90 minutes the President, or for that matter, Rmoney, had or will have.

If Obama kept correcting Rmoney, you'd be saying Rmoney controlled the framing. Kept Obama chasing after his lies.

The whole point is look at the substance.

[LondonReign2]

90. I'm not so sure

"The vast majority of Americans aren't quite that stupid" -- You have a higher opinion of them than I do

Nonetheless, I stand by the opinion that most people, particularly the undecideds, DON'T know the truths from the lies. If they did they certainly wouldn't still be undecided. No one who KNOWS what the truth is can possibly sit there and watch Romney lie his ass off and STILL be undecided.

But, SOME will decide based on this debate only, while many won't. For those undecideds, Romney helped himself more than the President did.

"If Obama kept correcting Rmoney, you'd be saying Rmoney controlled the framing. Kept Obama chasing after his lies." Gee, thanks for telling me what I'd be saying. Care to put any other incorrect words in my mouth?

[treestar]

104. Imagine what it would have looked like if Obama kept correcting Rmoney

It would let Rmoney decide what to talk about and keep Obama from saying anything positive - so it would be "Obama kept chasing Rmoney's lies and never got out any of his policies!" Yes, I think that's what you'd be saying.

I dont' think anyone so political that they are actually undecided would even watch the debate.

[marions ghost]

87. "couldn't defend himself"

let's not rush to extremes.

[ProSense]

11. "In short, he sounded like he knew what he was talking about. "

He looked unhinged.

"I'm annoyed with all the people saying that this was all just a 'hang back' strategy from the President. I don't buy it. The president needs to act like an election is on the line, because it is. "

I tell you what, Romney was spewing lies by the second. He was hoping that the President would engage him point by point, which would have been a big disaster, getting mired in debating Romney's lies and flip flops. The President stayed focus on making his point. He didn't screw up. Republicans have nothing. Democrats have unhinged Romney spewing lies (http://www.democraticunderground.com/1251118984).

6:44 PM PT: Romney almost makes a collosal mistake, initially saying he and Obama have the same plan on Medicare for people in the next decade. But he quickly realizes that would be a denial of his bogus $716 billion attack. So in the course of about 75 seconds he goes from saying he and Obama agree on Medicare ... to Obama is the worst person in the world on Medicare.

Got whiplash? I do.

6:46 PM PT: This split-screen really is not kind to Mitt Romney. And while I think he's generally been fairly composed during his speaking moments, he really hasn't laid down the seeds of any argument that will undermine or weaken Obama. And I really think he made a mistake with his Medicare answer, initially forgetting that he's supposed to say Obama is evil.

6:51 PM PT: Mitt Romney thinks he owns that podium. And he wants America to know it.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/10/03/1139457/-The-first-2012-presidential-debate-President-Obama-vs-Mr-47-6

[Glitterati]

12. What you seem to miss

Is that you and I KNOW Mitt was lying.

Do you really think those independents who haven't been paying attention to the politics know that? Of course, they don't.

You are attributing a degree of knowledge to the voting public that just doesn't exist.

The mushy middle was the target at last night's debate. Not you and I.

[SemperEadem]

16. anyone who is still undecided

at this late stage of the game is an idiot.

[Glitterati]

19. That's true

but so is the fact that there are undecided voters who watch the debates to make their decision.

Call them whatever you want, but THEY were the target in the debate last night.

You and I KNOW which candidate we're voting for. We were NOT the target last night. Our opinions and votes have been cast already (hopefully with early voting) but UNDECIDEDS exist and they were who Robme and Obama were speaking to last night.

[pscot]

69. Welcome to idiot America

The country that gave G. W. Bush two (2) terms.

[Glitterati]

109. Amen! n/t

[treestar]

74. and if they decide based on that debate alone

1. might decide for Obama and
2. might change their minds for the next debate, or the next thing they hear and will change their minds many times between now and then

[ProSense]

17. Really?

What you seem to miss

Is that you and I KNOW Mitt was lying.

Do you really think those independents who haven't been paying attention to the politics know that? Of course, they don't.

The sample was taken from the most recent CNN poll.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021466107

What you're saying is that because people are uninformed, it's up to us to support positions (Romney won) that keep them uninformed.

The punidts are not uninformed. What's their excuse?

[Glitterati]

20. No one is supporting Romney

They are stating FACTS.

I'm sorry you think the FACTS hurt you, but it's still FACT.

[ProSense]

23. "They are stating FACTS. "

"I'm sorry you think the FACTS hurt you, but it's still FACT. "

Fact: Romney was spewing bullshit. He looked unhinged.

Do you think anything you say will change the fact that Romney lied about everything?

[Glitterati]

30. No

But, I'm going to keep repeating this. You and I were not the target audience that needed to be reached last night.

You and I know they were lies topped by more lies.

But those undecideds have no such information. Imagine yourself in the same boat and watch the replay of that debate.

They don't CARE about politics.

They change the channel when an Obama speech comes on.

They prefer a football game to a political speech.

They ONLY know they are hurting in this economy.

They are like you and I in that this economy is killing us.

But, they aren't looking for SOLUTIONS, they are trying to figure out who will FIX this mess.

[ProSense]

34. "You and I were not the target audience that needed to be reached last night. "

So because we're not the "target" we should accept selling bullshit as winning? I mean, did you miss the point of the OP?

[pscot]

81. No one here is disputing that Romney lied

The issue is why the President failed to call bullshit. Instead of attacking Romney's lies and defending Democratic ideals, he wrapped himself in Simpson-Bowles and even suggested at one point that he and Romney were in agreement. Rope-a-dope has to set up your attack, otherwise it's just another way of getting your butt kicked. This was only the first round, but it gave the MSM the opening they've been looking for; a chance to portray this a a close contest, with a game challenger carrying the fight to the champ. You think it matters to CNN that Rmney's a lieing asshole?

[Glitterati]

108. Here's where I have been for the last 3 hours

With my next door neighbor, paying him to work on my car so they could pay their electric bill. Their house went into foreclosure yesterday. 3 families living together in their father's home. A home he paid $160,000.00 for that appraised yesterday for $79,000.00.

Typical low information voters. Each and every one of them.

Hates politics and politicians.

Thinks we should pay a flat tax. Even though it would be 30%. Because "the rich" are getting away with murder.

The man should be a Democrat, but he supports Romney.

At least until I can spend more time with him.

[SemperEadem]

15. how does the average person feel

when they've flow into Denver hours before they begin physical exertion? How do they feel after 24 hours of getting acclimated to the thin air? That is the difference between those two. mittiot was there 24 hours before the debate, so he'd gotten well acclimated to the air. Obama flew in at 2pm the day of.

Obama may have been hanging back... and his strategy may have been to give mittiot enough rope to fashion his own noose. mittiot flat out lied his way through that debate and now his handlers, instead of prepping for the next debate, are going to be spending their time dragging what mittiot said from the middle and back out to the right. mittiot's lies said that he rejected all of the right wing bullshit he's been talking for the last 6 years.

Also, had he lit up mittiot at the first debate, then all the talk would have been about him being a scary, angry black man and nothing would have been said about the substance of what he said. Look at how everyone is acting today: distracted by the shiny, sparkly stuff and not a word on the fact that Obama cut the legs out from under a lot of the lies mittiot told.

Next debate will be closer to sea level and between now and then, mittiot's handler will be living in fear of the damage they've had to control and the damage that is on its way from the next round of lies. By the last debate, Obama will be asking mittiot "how does my ass taste?"

[Glitterati]

24. I hope you're right

I hope that amazing orator shows up and shows Robme his ass.

Whatever the reason, last night was painful.

I watched about 2 minutes of Morning Smoe this morning and just changed the channel before I threw up.

It hurts, but we have to hope Obama has an amazing recovery from this. I don't doubt he will...we just have to avoid the assholes who are hooping and hollering today with their win.

Here's the really funny part! Robme threw the Tea Partiers to the wolves last night and they're cheering his "win" this morning. ROFL, wonder what happens when THEY wake up to the truth tomorrow after their euphoria has expired.

[SemperEadem]

125. precisely my point about the sparkly bs

they're too stupid being mesmerized by the sparkly bs to see that their boy tacked to the center on them. As the days play out, they're going to realize that he hoodwinked them... and by then the next debate will be underway and I'm hoping Obama will slam him.

[Glitterati]

126. Some of the "big" guys will figure it out

Pretty fast. You know, the idiot leaders, like Erick Erickson of RedState, and Bill Kristol.

Those fools will quietly say......wait a minute......we are rooting for Obama2.

And, then the Tea Partiers will rip them to shreds, because they are just too stupid to understand it.

Rip away folks! Please.

[Atypical Liberal]

40. Excuses won't mean much if he loses the election.

I'm not buying the preparedness angle. Yes, I understand that there are great responsibilities as President of the United States.

But the man has mobile White Houses to fly around in that he can run the country from.

If getting accustomed to the air was what caused this problem (and it wasn't) then someone should have planned that out and gotten him in town earlier.

This election is a serious national security issue, as serious as nearly anything else that is happening in the world. The President needs to act like it.

By the last debate, Obama will be asking mittiot "how does my ass taste?"

I hope so. I hope at the next debate at least he spends less time looking down at the podium.

[SemperEadem]

124. I am not distracted by the sparkly bs

I was listening for policy.. call me an informed voter. mittiot didn't offer plausible policy. He offered nothing but bald faced lies. Period.

As far as his schedule is concerned... I guess keeping the free world free doesn't give one a lot of wiggle room schedule wise. He's not like mittiot--who was last worked for pay in 2002--has all the time in the world. He runs nothing but his mouth. It's kind of easy to leisurely show up in Denver a day or two before to prep, with all that time he has on his hands.

The president did fine. He gave mittiot the rope to fashion his own noose.

[marions ghost]

89. "he rejected all the right wing bullshit he's been talking for the last 6 years"...

--it seemed so to me.

So will any teabaggers and far right wingers GET this?

I think they might feel a bit confused...at being thrown under the bus--ie. back into oblivion

[serbbral]

43. Amen Atypical Liberal!

Amen!!!!!!! I agree. Romney flip flopped all over himself, but he looked comfortable, calm, and vibrant. Obama didn't even look as if he wanted to be there. Obama didn't even look up at him. He looked like John McCain did when he debated Obama. I remember people saying the same about McCain not looking at Obama. There were soooooo many things Obama could have called Romney on and he said nada! I can't believe he NEVER even mentioned one word about the 47%, not one. All I can say lying or not, he better bring it next time or we might be looking at President Romney. I hate to say it, but we're living in an era where fluff and style is what counts instead of substance. This election is too close for Obama to act lackadaisical.

[lalalu]

48. Your annoyance is an American problem

President Obama let the real Romney come out. If anyone was more annoyed with President Obama than the things that came out of Romney's mouth then that is something that can't be fixed.

The President has "stepped up his game" and beat republicans many times by letting them dig their own hole. Then the same people who claimed he needed to "step up his game" are left looking bewildered and befuddled at his victory.

[Atypical Liberal]

59. Don't take my word for it, check the front page of CNN. n/t

[treestar]

72. "sounded" prepared

You've just made the point. Who values "seeming" to say something over actually saying something. That was the essay's point.

What of the content of what Rmoney said? The essay was saying look at that. Not in the mere delivery.

Nixon shouldn't have "lost" because he was sweaty and JFK looked good either. Maybe this country would be a better place now if we had not spent the last 50 years being shallow.

[RiverStone]

83. Romney "won" because he did much better "acting"

Remember, the vast majority of John Q Public believes reality TV is real. On facts, of course DU is right that Obama nailed it. On style ---back to reality TV--- Romney pushed him around. Either Obama's handlers or Obama himself really fucked this one up.

In 2 weeks, he better come out swinging!

[Atypical Liberal]

96. Yup. You don't come off strong looking at your toes and avoiding eye contact. n/t

[zeemike]

21. But Obama did not attack

And so that means Rmoney won?....well that is what we have been conditioned to believe...at least some of us.
The militarism of America started long ago, and a general that does not attack has no respect in the public eye...and now we want our president to be a general.

Wisdom has been neutered.

[Glitterati]

25. No

No "attack" is necessary. All that was required was a RESPONSE to the lies.

It was the lack of response from Obama which gave the lies their credibility.

[ProSense]

33. The President

"No 'attack' is necessary. All that was required was a RESPONSE to the lies."

...responded when it was important to do so. There was no way he was going to stand there and responded to rapid fire lies. That would have been idiotic and a disaster.

Romney: I’ll Cover Pre-Existing Conditions, Obama: No, You Won’t

Benjy Sarlin

Challenged by President Obama during Wednesday’s debate in Denver over how he would find insurance for the sick after repealing the Affordable Care Act, Mitt Romney asserted that he had a plan for those with pre-existing conditions.

“Pre-existing conditions are covered under my plan,” he said. “Young people are able to stay on their family plan. That is already offered in the private marketplace. You do not need the government to mandate that.”

He charged Obama with turning to “an unelected board who will decide what kind of treatment you ought to have,” a reference to an independent panel of experts created by the ACA tasked with controlling overall Medicare costs, but not individual patients’ treatments.

The only problem: Romney has made that guaranteed issue claim before, only to repeatedly have his campaign clarify that his unnamed plan for health care reform would not allow people with pre-existing condition to obtain insurance. It would only allow them to maintain continuous insurance, for example if they lose their job, something that is already in the law but often prohibitively expensive with employer subsidies. As recently as last month Romney’s campaign confirmed his policy stance.

“That is already the law,” Obama said. “That does not help millions of people out there with pre-existing conditions.

Obama went on to charge Romney with deliberately hiding his plans to repeal and replace not just the ACA but other major laws in order to keep unpalatable consequences from voters.

- more -

http://2012.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/10/romney-ill-cover-pre-existing-conditions-obama-no-you-wont.php

[Glitterati]

35. What part of this are you not understanding

Do you really think the Walmart worker who watched the debate knows ANY OF THAT?

No.

They think all politicians are assholes.

They think football is more important that politics.

They want someone to FIX this mess.

They don't care how.

They do not give a shit about these FACTS.

They have to go vote.

They have to choose a candidate.

Their co-worker at Walmart loves Romney.

After last night's debate, they think that low information co-worker is right.

[ProSense]

36. "Do you really think the Walmart worker who watched the debate knows ANY OF THAT?"

No wonder you're pushing Romney as the winner, you're insulting people's intelligence just like he does.

I mean, Romney is losing low income voters in the polls by a significant margin. You do not appear to understand where Romney's support comes from.

[LondonReign2]

50. Stating that the President lost the debate is fact

No one is "pushing Romney as the winner", he was the winner as reflected in numerous spot polls of undecided voters. All the teeth gnashing in the world doesn't change that fact. Yes, we are quite aware Romney lied his way through the entire debate; that doesn't make the Obama the winner of the debate.

Romney left so many hanging meatballs over the plate and Obama refused to take a swing. You may believe it would have been a mistake for Obama to counter the lies; the results of the spot polls say otherwise.

[treestar]

79. It's an opinion

It's not like a swimming race or a horse race.

[LondonReign2]

92. Not horse racing, ice skating

When the judges (in this case, the public) give the higher marks to the other skater, they've won the competition. You can complain all you want to and argue that your skater actually had the far more artistic performance, but the medal is going home with the other person.

[treestar]

103. They have metrics for it

They give points and there is a score. And a panel. There are limited, objective things to judge, which are the same for all competitors.

[serbbral]

51. @ProSense

"I mean, Romney is losing low income voters in the polls by a significant margin. You do not appear to understand where Romney's support comes from."


Well, after last night he might not be losing them any more.

[treestar]

86. That's silly

Geez, only freepers would be that deluded about it.

[marions ghost]

91. He threw low income voters under the bus

and didn't even give em a Christianity-based Gay or anti-women dog whistle. Settled for "Obamacare" which didn't really get anywhere.

I wonder if low-income, low info voters are kind of mystified--I guess they'll be waiting for their buddy Ryan to throw em some bones...

[Jakes Progress]

63. Sure attack the messenger.

It won't help us win, but you can feel real good about your huff.

My Democratic neighbor just took his mom to wal-mart. He said everyone there was cheering the romney "victory".

My brother works a blue-collar bar on Wednesday nights. He said it was wall-to-wall cheering for mitt. A boom night for beer sales (no tips, of course. after all they are republicans).

If we keep our heads up our asses and just puff about how great we really are, we will be doing the same next year when they swear in mitt. Obama needs to get it on the ball. Yes, you are right. They need to be called on their lies. But not the next day, or the next week. Clinton formed his immediate response team to hit back in the newspapers the next day. We can't wait until the next day in this age. Obama needs to have the facts and be able to put them into sound bites. He needs to refute the lies with data on the spot. Call a liar a liar. He let way too many go last night.

So you can continue the in-fighting and going after other Democrats by calling them names and playing games. You can do that if you've already given up.

[Glitterati]

121. Thank you, Jakes Progress

I agree with every word you said. Especially this:

So you can continue the in-fighting and going after other Democrats by calling them names and playing games. You can do that if you've already given up.

[lalalu]

49. Do you really think the Walmart worker was ever going to vote for President Obama

[treestar]

78. Obviously you have little respect for the voters in general

If you handled the campaigns that would show. You'd be handling a campaign that looked more like a Republican one.

[Glitterati]

117. Grow up!

There are people like my neighbor who know absolutely NOTHING about politics and politicians. And he's voting for Romney, until I can convert him.

I started working on that today, by playing the 47% video for him. He had never seen it.

No, he didn't watch the debates, he sees no commercials, because he doesn't have television! They cannot afford cable (hell, I paid him to work on my car so they could pay the electric bill today). We can't get over the air television here, even WITH an antenna, which he doesn't have.

There are 4 families living in a house that was put into foreclosure yesterday. 5 babies under 6. I watched them while he worked on my car.

Quit accusing those on YOUR fucking side of being trolls.

[treestar]

129. Why are you trying to convince this person.

No one called you a troll. But if you are a Democrat, you want Democrats to win. So if you really think you're going to convince this guy, then you have to be positive. It might just be better to show enthusiasm about your candidate and refrain from boo hooing over every mistake.

[Glitterati]

135. How sad

That is just so incredibly sad, it's not worthy of response.

No one was boo hooing over anything. I was disappointed in Obama's performance in the debate.

I'm sorry that I came on a DEMOCRATIC forum and expected to be able to discuss my disappointment. It was entirely stupid of me not to realize that I would be bullied, demeaned, and accused of being a troll.

In the meantime, I'm going to continue to have my discussion with my neighbor (which you are NOT a part of) and convince him to vote for Obama.

Clearly, I'm on my own, because no one at DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND is going to give me any support while doing so.

Nope, they're going to continue to berate, demean and attempt to ban anyone who dares to disagree!

One thing is absolutely certain - I won't refer my neighbor here to get answers to questions. Nope. You guys would run him off in a heartbeat.

Are you proud of your work here? Does it make you feel all warm and fuzzy to know that I can't use this site to support my positions? I can't tell my neighbor to go to Democratic Underground to get the FACTS.

He would be run out of the place!

[treestar]

77. Rmoney is so confused about his own position on Obamacare

or his own position on health care, that he says something different every five minutes.

Here was Obama telling Rmoney what Rmoney's own position is supposed to be.

[treestar]

75. Then Obama would not get the chance to say his piece

It would be all: Rmoney owned Obama making him continually contest his lies.

They can be contested from now until the election. It didn't have to be right then.

[zeemike]

95. And if he had called it lies they would have said he lied

And his lies were desperate and that Mitt got to him.
There is no wining when there is spinning.
I think he did the right thing to remain calm...in in my view of the debate it was Rmoney that looked desperate, rattling of one talking point after the other with his fast talking snake oil sales tactics...but no one in the media will ever say that.
Besides if someone rattles off a dozen lies at one time how can anyone answer them?....lies are easy but the truth takes much longer.

[DhhD]

56. Now the stage is set for VP Biden to debate the GOP Congress.

Ryan is now obligated to step in the horse manure that Romney created last night. Romney was in his Dream World riding his White Horse last night; forgetting the tea party.

Second debate: picking up on the lies, obstruction and harmful policies that the GOP has and will bring to the 90% of Americans if the Trickle-Up Fairy dust storm returns to the White House and to Congress. The We the People need to get specific by accusation of failed results with the numbers and harmful results we are now living with since the Fairies (now with magic under pants) started this. An example: if the ACA is removed, then on November 8, children with pre-existing TERMINAL conditions will be removed from life saving drugs, especially in states like Texas where Medicaid has been compromised and time removed by that Trickle-Up Fairy Duststorm.

[zeemike]

93. I am rooting for your view

And welcome to DU...
But like the old saying it is not who gets the votes but who counts them that matters...and the same principle applies to the debate...it doesn't matter who "wins" the debate it matters how the debate is framed bu the media cause many of us believe the spin because we think the spin masters know what they are talking about.

[AgingAmerican]

22. Low information voters

They make or break elections. You have to speak to them as if they know absolutely nothing.

The Pundits on MSNBC all thought Obama won, initially, until the focus group polls came in. They then changed their minds a bit.

I thought Obama did fine, but he should definitely and adamantly call out Mittens on his outright lies come next debate.

[Glitterati]

28. Thank you!

And, as I said in another post........what happens when the Tea Partiers realize Robme threw them to the wolves last night?

But, you're wrong about the MSNBC pundits. Big Ed and Chris Matthews were screaming about Obama the second the debate ended. I saw it with my own eyes. Poor Rachel was trying to counter with intelligent points, but she was drowned out by those 2. Big Ed was furious, and Chris Matthews was just stunned.

Chris Matthews kept saying "Obama, watch MSNBC to learn about the issues you left out tonight!"

[RickFromMN]

82. I agree with Ed Schultz and Chris Matthews. I was unhappy. Why couldn't President Obama defend

the truth? Why couldn't President Obama be a fighter for the truth?

I don't know what happens when President Obama tries to negotiate, to compromise with the House Republicans, but if last night's debate is any indication of President Obama's style, I think I understand why the House Republicans seem to say, their way or no way.

People will listen to their friends before they listen to fact checkers.

I know enough Republicans to know what they say to their undecided colleagues, the smooth talk, the nodding heads, and the they have to get back to work rather than listen to another opinion.

Please President Obama, learn to fight back. Learn to defend the truth. I was very disappointed.

[Glitterati]

120. Exactly.

That wasn't the Obama we see on the campaign trail. Where the hell was the Great Orator? Where was the Obama WE all know?

He would grimace at the lies, and then change the subject when it was his turn.

He simply should have been defending Democratic principles, and he wasn't.

[bullwinkle428]

29. Hang on a second - "The Pundits on MSNBC all thought Obama won"?

Ed Schultz and Tweety were absolutely livid just moments after the debate ended! They looked like they wanted to kick Obama's ass over his poor performance, as they perceived it!

[Glitterati]

32. That's what I saw as well n/t

[FSogol]

26. K & R. n/t

[rocktivity]

27. And they're willing to accept aggression as credibilty

Last edited Thu Oct 4, 2012, 11:10 AM - Edit history (1)

Bullies bullying you by being so intimidating you don't have time to think about what they're saying. Look at how well it worked on Jim Lerher.


rocktivty

[xocet]

31. Jim Lehrer? n/t

[rocktivity]

88. I stand corrected -- JIM Lerher

Last edited Thu Oct 4, 2012, 01:28 PM - Edit history (1)

THIS is TOM Lerher:

rockivity

[xocet]

98. Thanks for the video - Tom Lehrer's work is so funny....

Here is one that I just found - that you might enjoy:

[LovingA2andMI]

37. EXACTLY ^^^^

I wrote about this night and frankly was hard on two "pundits" on MSNBC....

Did the media watch Former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney (R)/ President Barack Obama (D) first debate?

No really, did the corporate owned, lock, stock and barrel 'news' media listen to the same exchange of ideas that played on our television screens on Wednesday, October 3rd?

Wow, the "progressive stallworths" so was thought of Rachel Maddow and Ed Schultz threw President Obama debate performance completely up under the bus. Then backed up with running over the President's counterpoint words with eight bus sized tires on Thursday evening.

ROJS News participated in live tweeting via Facebook some of the counterpoints President Obama made tonight to GOP Candidate for President, Mitt Romney.

"I will take ideas from anyone as long they are looking to make middle class families stronger and advancing the needs of the middle class," President Obama.

"This is where budgets manner because budgets dictate choices," President Obama.

"The first role of the Federal Gov't is to keep that people safe. I also believe the American gov't should open up avenues for people to succeed," President Obama.

"When Gov. Romney says that he will set up a better plan, but has yet to say with what? At some point, I think the American people have to ask themselves is Gov. Romney keeping all these plans (to repeal and replace) things to himself, because they're too good?" President Obama.

"The ironic thing is, we seen this plan work really well (the Affordable Healthcare Act) in Massachusetts," President Obama.

"Gov. Romney said that he wants to repeal Dodd-Frank. The question is that does anyone think that the problem we had (with the economic crisis) was too much regulation? If so, Gov. Romney is your guy," President Obama.

"Then what you have is folks like my Grandmother at the mercy of the health insurance company at the most (needy) times in their lives. Turning Medicare into a voucher program is not the way to go," President Obama.

"The way for us to deal with Medicare is to deal with costs. When it comes to Social Security, you don't need a major structural change when it comes to dealing with Social Security," President Obama.

Again, what debate was the folks at MSNBC watching? Obviously not this one on October 3rd.

Read more: http://www.reachoutjobsearch.com/2012/10/video-msnbcs-progressive-pundits-spin.html#ixzz28KrXTPA6

[BumRushDaShow]

38. A hearty K&R

Bullydom does not = running a country

Meaning that hothead Rmoney or even the likes of Tweety would have us in WW3 quick, fast, and in a hurry. Rmoney managed to piss off world leaders during his short overseas excursion, with his rash motor mouth style. He is not and never will be a statesman and neither would Tweety.

[MissNostalgia]

39. Im mad

This stupidity of thinking Romney won based on the delivery of his LIES, is angering. A lie is still a lie, no matter how you say it.

[Historic NY]

41. Rmoney plan baffle them with bullshit.

[Wednesdays]

44. Spot on.

A big K&R

[Doctor_J]

46. We didn't "declare" unhinged lying as winning

The president's intrade odds took a dive last night. Unhinged lying won the night. The president declined to call out the lies, instead letting himself be called a liar at the end. Just one example:

Rmoney: "My tax cuts do not add $9T to the deficit"

Correct response: "Really? Have you talked to your sidekick lately? Just yesterday he said you are committed to a 20% across-the-board tax cut. Every refutable economist says this is a $9T hit to the budget, and no amount of 'growth' will generate that kind of revenue. So one of you lied."

[byoung6]

52. I have found a bright spot!

After picking my jaw back up off the floor last nite at what was sold as a debate and ended up being a mockumentary. I have been thinking, Romney can't run from all the lies he told last nite. Romney's lies have painted him into a corner, the President and the whole campaign has a week to just hammer away at Mitt on all the flip-flops and lies. So actually, I think Mitt layed out a banquet of stuff for Team Obama to attack the Ryan-Romney ticket on. So everybody who was upset like me, take heart, Mitt is toast, another load of film of him lieing!

[malaise]

53. K & R

for truth

[ChairmanAgnostic]

54. ProSense, you are wrong.

60% of the population hates politics and is not involved in it. Some of them tuned in, probably for the first time of their own volition. Otherwise, they have been bombarded with ads, something they probably hate. They are not tuned into politics like folks here. What they saw was sad. Romney, energetic, incisive, attacking.
Obama, weak, indecisive, disengaged.

They tried to Carterize Obama, and damn it, they came close.

[Peregrine Took]

64. Agreed. Obama looked like an adjunct and Romney like a CEO.

Even the biggest True Believer's have to agree to that.
Only hope is to move on and have Biden try to turn things around.

What is bugging me is what was Obama thinking? I know he had a plan and wanted to stay on message and be calm and presidential but at some point he should have realized what was happening and changed his plan.

I wonder if the lack of audience participation (I hate that) deluded him into thinking he was doing well.

[OldDem2012]

105. Wow. You must like CEOs who lie on a constant basis...

...Why should President Obama have bothered to respond when Mitt was doing such a great job of destroying his own campaign all by himself?

[ProSense]

80. No

I'm not:

Democratic Pollster: Romney Scored Some Points But Not Enough
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021467583

[ChairmanAgnostic]

139. polls are a mere snapshot of a small group of people.

they have their uses, but are also very susceptible to statistical games and abuse. (See generally, Rasmussen)
Trends over time take longer to develop. There would not be an instantaneous result, unless Obama was caught on TV acting like a catholic priest with a young child or like Jerry Sandusky with a future recruit.

Come back 2-3 weeks from now, and we will have a much clearer idea.

[bucolic_frolic]

55. Mitt was Speaking in Tongues

He verbally flummoxed the President

and everyone else.

Facts don't matter to Mitt.

He's sort of like Reagan in that regard.

[allan01]

57. re:People are so proud to declare unhinged lying as winning. Lowering standards.

this is why i dont watch these things any more . this is why i dont read our local rag anymore. this is why i dont watch television news anymore . this is why i am going to pull the plug on comcast a friend when he was a little boy and his dad went to see the preseident speak( the pres. came thru fresno ca on a whistlestop tour) . when father and son got home , the got the local rag of the area. they were shocked. both looked each other and exclaimed ,I that isnt what he said". ratings this is one event where ratings shouldnt matter .

[ancianita]

58. Amen. Let the puking commence.

[Norrin Radd]

60. I don't get the whole [he won on style] nonsense.

What style? He was stuttering, rambling, and interrupting, and he was twitchy.

[Doctor_J]

70. Today, the polls are closer and Rmoney's base is energized

How else would you define "won"?

[Norrin Radd]

131. Challengers always get a bounce. The faux fawning

from the media is what I don't get. Well, I get that they lie for the R's, but their narrative doesn't make sense on its face.

[hifiguy]

62. "Fast talking bullshit" indeed.

I have never heard anyone lie so much so quickly. Willard sounded every bit like the content-less snake oil salesman he is. I wish the President had called him out on some of his more egregious lies and was disappointed that he did not.

Money Boo Boo sounded like he was so jacked up on Dexedrine that I had to turn the debate off and head for baseball after less than an hour. As another DUer posted last night, Willard "dominated" because he talked over everyone. That isn't a win. It's just being a loudmouthed asshole.

[ailsagirl]

65. Thanks for posting!!

[LaydeeBug]

66. No, we are ashamed to say that the lies weren't called out, allowing them to grow legs. nt

[RiverStone]

99. I'm not ashamed to say I agree with you --- Obama missed about 4-5 chances to call bullshit...

On Mitt's lies.

The good news is he has 2 more debates to come out swinging.

[LaydeeBug]

106. That is very true. I just don't buy the whole "oh he *meant* to do that" meme.

Someone show me the post anywhere in DU PRIOR to the debates that predicted this.

This is not a GAME CHANGER by a long stretch...not even close.

But we did not win.

And we should have.

[pangaia]

67. ". When will American culture stop accepting mediocrity and incompetence, and start valuing reason a

and incompetence, and start valuing reason and intelligence?'

Never again. It is over.

[Doctor_J]

71. When we take the media back

until that happens, you're right.

[treestar]

68. +1000000000000000000000000000000000

It's not just elections either. It's the whole culture.

I wonder if these people really think the swing state polls will reverse themselves overnight. It's more like they were concerned with the quality of entertainment. These debates should be discontinued for a while. They've become nothing but show.

[Harriety]

76. I like to think of our President as a classic Leo "the lion" figure.

Maybe it's because of the way he appears to watch his prey and study it just as President Obama was doing last night. He listened to a ranting fool and refuted what Romney said when he could without upsetting or alerting his prey too much as to how much he was aware of his lying and deceit. That kind of behavior takes discipline and intelligence. The kind of discipline he takes to run a country in the midst of chaos. Romney went off half cocked but said very little. Some people noticed this. Apparently the spinners thought it best to play it safe and give the "win" to the louder, rambling guy spouting lies. Well, I think the our President did very well last night. He stayed the course, observed his prey, and I would hope that we would not underestimate the keen prowess of the Lion King.

[dreampunk]

84. Too bad our President can't

call a liar a LIAR. That word seems to have got lost the minute it rolled out of the Mouth of Newt. ROMNEY IS A BULLSHIT SALESMAN. Maybe a good one, but he sure doesn't need folks like the wonderful Rachel Maddow and others backing him up!

[warrior1]

85. kr

[Blue Owl]

94. It's time for President Obama to say "Mitt, you're lying!"

Call a spade a spade, then dig Romney's grave with it already.

[joeglow3]

100. Then, lets dump the debates

Using their logic, there is ZERO purpose to a debate because we already know who the better leader is.

Historically speaking, this reaction is a VERY common reaction for the side of incumbent (especially one ahead in the polls).

However, I agree with the sentiment and it is a SAD commentary on our society,

[DirtyDawg]

101. I don't...

...know who mooremusings is, but damn...this is the absolute best I've read - ever. And, by the way, MSNBC needs to get Tweetybird to just STFU. The guy is an embarrassment and needs to be throttled...and Big Ed ain't much better.

[OldDem2012]

102. Quite a few of those folks are on this board.....

....Mitt lied just about every single time he opened his mouth, and some people actually believe he won. I seriously question what standards they have for winning.

The President set a trap and Mitt jumped in with both lying feet...lies that are already being exposed by pro-Obama ads.

You people that are crying like two-year-olds need to go to Time-Out and don't come back until you've returned to rational thought.

[lunasun]

107. standards lowered for future Idiocracy

[Cha]

110. Thank you, ProSense.. got to be

the 100th Rec..now, I have to go out.

[newspeak]

112. well it seems that "unhinged lying" is now a favorite american pastime

little boot's, with the help of a very complicit media, lied us into iraq. Now I know his war profiteering friends have made some bank, but for the majority of the american people, that lie has caused physical and economic harm, that we are still paying.

honor, honesty, empathy seem to be for patsies now. so, does the romney camp think, "the ends justify the means"-but whose ends and what means (lying)?

[LongTomH]

114. Our national discourse has been systematically dumbed down for decades!

Rational argument has largely been replaced with sound bites, talking points and the PR techniques perfected by Edward Bernays in the 1930s.

[ProSense]

122. Yet some are tripping over themselves to help it along. n/t

[Glitterati]

123. And, some are busting ass to stop it.

Give THEM some damned credit.

[Jakes Progress]

133. Oh no. You can't do that.

We have to jump on other Democrats for not cheering enough. That's how we prove how perfect we are - by calling them trolls and shaming them for not being sufficiently unctuous.

[ProSense]

134. Declaring Romney the winner is not "busting ass to stop it."

It's aiding and abetting.

[Glitterati]

136. Please

find anywhere that I said Romney was the winner.

ANYWHERE.

And, in the meantime, be sure to eliminate DU as a place where I can tell my neighbor to go to get the FACTS. You'd run him off in a heartbeat, defeating everything I am trying to accomplish!

Good job! You go!

[ProSense]

137. "find anywhere that I said Romney was the winner. "

I really don't care what you said. You're in a thread that is criticizing the claim that Romney won and you're barking on about "FACTS."

[Glitterati]

138. You GO!

Beat me up so more.

Make DU useless for those of us trying to CHANGE minds and votes.

Success! You made it! You're on TOP OF THE FOOD CHAIN!

Are you happy now? Good.

For your final blow, please put me on ignore.

[identify]

127. amen

Well put, my friend.

[daybranch]

128. 2 wins

For Obama. He came across as likeable,genuine, sincere and working for us. and honest. He talked to the voter.

[toddwv]

130. I'm amazed that one of the first thing Mitt plans to do as President

is to fire Jim Lehrer.

[PA Democrat]

132. Why do so many Americans admire people based upon their wealth

rather than their worth as a human being?

Romney made his money in a fashion that should not be admired if we were a decent society. We should admire people who make contributions that make the world a better place and not people whose primary goal is to make as much money as possible regardless of the cost to others.

Our values are really messed up.