Evangelical parents go to court to stop daughter with terminal illness who wishes to die:

[Are_grits_groceries]

She is paralyzed from the neck down, tethered to breathing and feeding tubes — but Manhattan bank manager Grace Sung Eun Lee still managed to mouth four words Wednesday.

“I want to die.”

Doctors are trying to honor Lee’s wish, but her devout parents believe that removing the tubes is suicide — a sin that would condemn the 28-year-old to hell.

They’ve gone to court to keep the terminally ill brain-cancer patient on life support, turning a heartbreaking family tragedy into a right-to-die legal battle.

The case has put medical ethics and religion on a collision course, with lawyers arguing in two courtrooms while the patient at the center of the fight can do little more than blink her eyes.
<snip>
Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/queens/paralyzed-terminally-ill-patient-fight-death-article-1.1174383#ixzz28QS4cBD5

This is tragic in many ways.
Let her go! If God is going to save her according to their thinking, he will.

[obamanut2012]

1. She is a lucid adult -- why should her paremts decide her fate???

WTF?

[get the red out]

5. That's my reaction too!!!

She's 28 years old and able to make her own decisions! How can her parents' wishes be "honored" over hers? Just because you are someone's parent doesn't make you their owner!!!!!

This shouldn't even be an issue, no one should even be giving a thought to whether a grown woman's parents should be able to veto her spoken medical wishes. I even wonder if there would be a thought given to the parents' desires in the case if the grown adult were a man and not a woman?

[obamanut2012]

14. The courts had no business giving TWO TROs

[get the red out]

19. No they did NOT!

"Culture clash" or "religion" cannot, in any sane world, but used to circumvent the law.

[obamanut2012]

21. Yes, TWICE the parents and courts have stopped their daughter's legal rights

Even after medical professionals testified the daughter is competent.

[get the red out]

29. Sorry, should have said "No the courts did NOT have the right"

I was too short. I agree with you completely.

[obamanut2012]

33. I read it that way anyway!

No probs.

[slackmaster]

22. First reply nailed it.

Suicide is sometimes a rational choice made by a mentally competent person. A severe physical health problem with no hope for recovery seems to me a good example of a rational reason for a person to decide to die.

Sometimes it is not. Depression, which can USUALLY be treated successfully, often leads to suicide in people who are otherwise healthy.

[Mariana]

30. Refusing medical treatment is not "suicide". nt.

[obamanut2012]

35. Her parents see it as that, and it's a sin to them

[Mariana]

43. Her parents are control freaks

tormenting this dying woman to try to make her do what THEY want her to do.

Her father said to the judge, “The thought of her dying, my heart tremors, everything goes black.” Notice he didn't say, "The thought of her going to hell..." or, "The thought of her committing this sin..."

The courts shouldn't be allowing these people to inflict their beliefs, genuine or otherwise, on their adult daughter. She has the right to refuse to consent to medical treatment.

[Pab Sungenis]

76. Exactly.

The thinking behind suicide being a mortal sin is that it's denying God the decision of when you die, and rejecting his gift of life.

Refusing medical treatment is not suicide, because it's leaving the decision to God. If God doesn't want her to die, He can heal her. If he does not, it's His will.

These parents aren't concerned about sin, they're trying to find any excuse to avoid dealing with their daughter's death.

[Mariana]

78. And torturing her in the process.

Her father's saying she'll go to hell if she chooses to stop the life support. Her mother's telling her that God will make her all better, if she does what they (the parents) want. All those "visitors" coming in to pray at her all the time. No wonder she wants it to end.

[obamanut2012]

82. I never said I agreed with them, I have said the opposite

[slackmaster]

56. Refusing food is suicide.

[Mariana]

60. How about refusing a respirator?

From the article - "On Sept. 18, doctors tried to remove the breathing tube to see if she could manage on her own — but she could not, court papers say."

[slackmaster]

61. I don't want to get into a hair-splitting exercise here

The patient has made a conscious decision to end her life. That's all that really matters.

[Cal Carpenter]

66. She chose to get terminal brain cancer?

I must have missed that part of the article.

[slackmaster]

74. Did I say she chose to get cancer?

[Cal Carpenter]

75. You said she made a conscious decision to end her life

Which is not accurate. Brain cancer is ending her life. Tubes that force food into her system and air into her lungs are prolonging her life. These are invasive medical procedures. She is suffering. She is not choosing to die - rather she is choosing to end invasive, painful procedures that will do nothing for her quality of life but only prolong her agony. Her body cannot handle these basic functions anymore. She has the right to refuse these procedures. She is not asking for a morphine megadose. She is not on a hunger strike. This is not suicide, legally or even morally by most people's standards.

[slackmaster]

79. Thank you for your pedantry. I'm sure it's given with good intentions.

[Mariana]

69. There's nothing to decide there.

She can't exactly decide not to die of terminal brain cancer. She can decide to die sooner or later, but that is the only deciding she can do about it.

[roguevalley]

34. shes their daughter. have the decision yourself then judge. i

Have. Everyone is different and the sin thing could just be their shield.

[obamanut2012]

37. That has nothing to do with the legalities of her case

Her parents have no legal right to try and force a medical decision on a mentally competent adult, and it is appalling two judges have thought they have such a right.

[liberalhistorian]

44. It's not just appalling, it is

truly frightening as well. If she is competent, as her medical providers have testified that she is, then, legally, the court has no legal right, standing or business to stand in her way. And they have no business putting the religious beliefs of family over the wishes of a competent adult.

[obamanut2012]

48. Which they have done, TWICE

And, not only is this woman lucid and mentally competent, but she is also in great physical pain.

[roguevalley]

80. the legalities aren't part of what I am saying. I am saying until its your decision, you can't know.

For me, it was the only way to go for my beautiful wonderful mom and dad. But it is the HARDEST damned thing EVER. The legalities I hope go the way the daughter wants but I can see the motivation of the parents. I don't agree with it. But I can feel their shoes. That is all.

[Care Acutely]

88. Yes, the legalities have everything in the world to do with what you're saying.

You did not make a decision against the wishes of a legally competent adult person. THEY ARE. She IS legally competent, ergo it is a LEGAL matter.

[roguevalley]

92. if you ignore the human element in situations you will always be pissed and filled with ego based

legalities. I am for the girl having what she wants but there is a human element here that you ignore at your peril. I have seen people adamant about DNR's at the moment of crisis fall apart and go for the flimsiest cure and hope possible. Go legal if you want to but its a one dimensional understanding of this.

And lest you think I'm being a short sighted bitch about this, I've been there and done the right thing twice. I am on the girl's side but I can see it clearly from all angles.

[Care Acutely]

93. The law protects free human beings from malfeasance cloaked in "concern"

And far from ignoring the power of emotion that results in baseless interference and usurpation of natural autonomy, the law exists because of it. That's why we have laws, and appeals, and a multi-tiered court system. The law prevailed in this case when a previous faulty decision made by a judge who made an unsound and probably emotional decision was overruled.

Your example again of the persons formerly adamant about their DNR's changing their minds at the last minute is again an example of competent, autonomous human beings deciding their own fate. Of course they have that right. So does this young woman. It's not just a moral right, it's a legal one.

I would guess that many, if not most can imagine the powerful emotions of a parent watching a vibrant, beloved daughter cut down by a cruel disease at the prime of life. Ethical debates are fine classroom exercises and make for lively conversation in the nurse's station breakroom, but the law provides a final condensation of mores and ethics to a rational course and decision.

[Gormy Cuss]

90. I hear what you're saying.

Last edited Sun Oct 7, 2012, 01:46 AM - Edit history (1)

The parents are using any justification they can to deny the reality that their daughter is not only dying but no longer has any quality of life, is ready to go and would die without the extraordinary care.

It's probably unfortunate that the father is the family's spiritual adviser. Clergy not connected to her emotionally may have been able to help them sort through their emotional and faith issues.

What makes me incensed though is that the courts are siding with the parents.

[roguevalley]

91. me too. this is a terrible thing for everyone, especially that poor girl My thoughts are for her.

[jberryhill]

2. An adult has the right to refuse medical treatment.

Further treatment of her without consent is simple battery.

[marions ghost]

4. that should be the bottom line here

however I have found out the hard way that the medical establishment is far too happy to let fragile people go--even if they DON'T want to. It's a grey area that has me conflicted. I would never sign any sort of living will from what I have seen.

[Le Taz Hot]

13. I'm curious about your reluctance

to use a Living Will/Living Trust. I've set this up with my almost 91-year-old Great Aunt and it specifically states what she does and does not want done to her in case she becomes terminal or unconscious. Goddess forbid but if this decision ever becomes necessary, I won't have the religious vultures oozing in under the door raising objections if I have to carry out her wishes to pull the plug. It will also keep the greedy vultures that also make up a portion of my family fighting over who gets what.

[marions ghost]

20. Both my father and mother

were in fragile conditions 10 years apart, but both were completely cognizant and in control. Treatment that would extend life was EXTREMELY hard to get, and in both cases they were urged to "let go" by medical personnel and pelted with DNRs & questioned about living wills. In both cases the whole family was treated as pariahs because my parents wouldn't sign these things. It eroded my confidence in these systems. It was exactly the opposite of what you would expect. There was NOBODY trying to extend their lives (they were 74 and 84). We had to fight hard for treatment that gave my mother five years of productive life. She had a lot of spirit and wanted every single minute. My dad did too, but got involved with a doc who treated seniors differently from the word go, and so compromised his care to the point of malpractice.

In the case of your Aunt if it makes her feel better at 91 to do this, then fine. But understand that in other cases medical personnel will simply not offer life extending treatments. Understand--if there is a living will, treatments will NOT be offered. In an era of for-profit hospitals you can see that this can cause problems.

Living wills are NOT about stopping procedures people don't want (this is BS--there are no religious vultures)-- it's all about completely relinquishing legal rights to medical personnel and preventing malpractice suits. The ONLY reason to do it is IF there will be NO family members with medical power of attorney present to make such a decision for an incapacitated, unconscious patient. (Obviously family members without power of attorney are not authorized).

I don't understand how this medical DNR can stop greedy vultures int he family from fighting over who gets what. She needs to have an air-tight, rock solid will re. her possessions.

Hope this answers your question. I have been thru a wringer over this.

[Le Taz Hot]

32. . . .

I don't want to dispute an issue that is obviously sensitive for you so I'll just thank you for your thoughtful reply.

I do have to add one thing: By "religious vultures" I was referring to people such as those in the OP who take their religion to extremes and not all people with religious convictions.

[marions ghost]

36. In our case

I would even welcome some religious vultures if they would have helped us. But more what we got from (well meaning) religious family members was "it's time" and "leave it to God" when it was expressly NOT what the patients wanted. Subtle pressure. They were trying to tell US kids to "let go, let God" --when we only wanted what our parents wanted, ie. to live. And they were correct in wanting treatment which was available (two in the family are medical researchers and knew this). I agree that religion isn't real appropriate as intervention, but compassion IS. We did not get very much of that. If we hadn't had one doc who took Mom under his wing, she would have died 5 years sooner.

The topic is not all that sensitive now--don't worry--I mean they're dead and gone. But I would be VERY careful about signing any such living will type of release myself. Only if there were no family member able and willing to speak for me. And in my case there are many that I would trust. So it's not an issue. My mind is completely made up on this--no need for anyone to ever ask for my signature. I'm covered. But others may not be.

I'm just making the case for giving someone medical power of atty and NOT signing living wills. If you are lucky enough to have a family member who knows your deepest wishes this is the way to go.

[HiPointDem]

86. "In an era of for-profit hospitals you can see that this can cause problems." = yes. it will.

[marions ghost]

89. Thanks for the corroboration

[jberryhill]

58. She doesn't want treatment - what's "grey"

I hope to God no busybody ever lets their broad social concern get in the way of my fucking right to make my fucking decision to terminate treatment.

[marions ghost]

59. You're not hearing what I'm saying

In my experience there IS no cadre of right wingers trying to take your decision away. Most will HAPPILY let you die. This is a trumped up fear that has no basis in reality. From my experience people (both well meaning and not) are more likely to be trying to assist in terminating you. We even had to fight off a "Nurse Kevorkian" who was going to pull the plug herself if she could--had to call in the doc to prevent it--my Mom lived five more years, totally in her right mind, appreciating every second of it. If you know what goes on in hospitals you will know that this is true.

People tend to automatically sign living wills or DNR without considering that this lets medical personnel decide even in instances where you ARE in your right mind (but may be sedated or temporarily incapacitated).

The best scenario is if you have a family member who has your medical power of atty. That's all I'm saying. I am certainly NOT making a case for anyone not being given every right to make such a decision--but just know that a living will CAN backfire. I have seen it.

[obamanut2012]

15. This

That poor woman has suffered enough. She is ready to let go, and her parents should respect her decision, because she will ultimately die anyway, just with greater pain and less dignity.

[hifiguy]

31. Bull's eye.

A competent adult has every legal and moral right to refuse medical treatment. When my 86 year old mother discovered she had cancer she refused surgery and her wishes were honored. For the last five months of her life she was made comfortable in the hospice and eventually slept away.

This woman's family should butt the fk out. They are assholes of the first order.

[liberalhistorian]

46. I'm sorry about your mother, but I'm glad her wishes were honored

regarding her treatment and death. I believe it should be up to the individual person. Some people, like your mother, in such cases, don't want any treatment other than palliative (pain) management and care. Others want to fight it medically all the way. Some people, in the situation of this young woman, want to be permitted to refuse further treatment, others want to fight it all the way. It should be up to the person, period. Not family, friends, doctors, the court, the media, society, etc., etc. Nobody owns, or has the right to control, any other life but their own.

My mother is 71 and feels the way that yours did. She's said if she gets cancer or another terminal or serious/life-threatening illness, she doesn't want any other treatment besides palliative care. Fortunately, she's quite healthy now, but you really never know. I privately have a problem with that, as I'd like her to stick around as long as possible, but it's not my place or business to object or fight it.

[hifiguy]

49. That was more than three years ago.

She'd made her wishes abundantly clear to me and given me power of attorney several years before, had them put down in writing by a lawyer specialising in elder law, and gave the doctors their marching orders after her diagnosis. All she ever wanted was palliative care; she figured she'd had a good run without anyone cutting her open. She went peacefully and on her own terms. Not a bad way to go.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

38. Yes, I know of two cases in which a person refused treatment for cancer

In one case, the person was very old, missed her late husband acutely, and felt that she had had a good life and no need to stick around any longer.

In another, the person was facing a third recurrence of breast cancer and dreaded going through chemo and radiation again. (In this case, her husband and parents were still alive, but they respected her wishes.)

[LongTomH]

57. My late sweetheart was a devout Catholic; but, she reached a point in her cancer treatment...

...where chemo had little chance of success. She refused chemo, transfusions, anything but palliative care.

She died peacefully within less than two weeks.

[tallahasseedem]

64. I work with cancer patients and see this kind of thing every day...

it is absolutely heartbreaking. I can say they are the bravest people I have ever met. Making the decision to not continue treatment is not an easy one, especially when they have fought so hard to live.

[Mariana]

70. It sure doesn't make it any easier

when the people who are supposed to love you are telling you you're going to go to hell for your decision.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

3. This tragic for everyone involved.

I, personally, don't know what I'd do in either place.

[geckosfeet]

6. The supreme entity wants her - keeping her on life support is in opposition to it's design.

How can human beings be so arrogant and manipulative as to project their wordly view onto their concept of god.

Say it - you don't want your daughter to die. But you have the power and she does not. That's all it is.

Assholes. They lie and deceive themselves and then project their evil onto everyone else.

[WinkyDink]

12. Well, that's a slippery slope argument, regarding medical procedures.

[geckosfeet]

77. The daughter expressed one desire. The parents intervened and imposed theirs.

Not much going on except life support. No other medical procedures that I read of. No chance for recovery.

Maybe some conversations with a psychologist or a spiritual adviser might change her mind, but then again it might convince that her decision to die is the right one.

I don't think there is much more that medical intervention can do to improve her quality of life.

[Mariana]

7. “The thought of her dying, my heart tremors, everything goes black,”

Grace’s father, prominent Queens pastor the Rev. Manho Lee, pleaded to a judge.

So, Mr. Lee, this is all about what YOU want. And you're telling your dying daughter that she'll go to hell if she doesn't do what YOU want her to do.

Mr. Lee, you're an asshole.

[obamanut2012]

16. And, his daughter WILL die anyway

She is getting palliative care for terminal brain cancer.

[HockeyMom]

8. I saw this happen with my Uncle

He was was 68 years and needed an operation or he would die within 6 months. He was told while the operation could save his life, he would probably be bedridden for the rest of this life, and might suffer brain damage. He told them flat out NO. Fortunately, he not only was coherent, but also ambulatory. He put on his clothes and walked out of the hospital.

My cousins were furious over his decision and tried to have him declared mentally incompetent to give them the power to force him into the hospital for that operation. My Uncle throughout all the legal maneuvers went about this life doing things that he had always wanted to do. Very much like that Tim McGraw song, "Live like you are dying."

Uncle Sal passed before the decision was handed down. He was declared COMPETENT.

I think this affected my (widowed) Mom, older than him by 4 years. She sat me down and explained to me her wishes and flat out asked if I (only child) would honor them. I told her yes. She then went to an attorney and filed all her legal papers before she was admitted to the hospital.

What this father is doing is cruel beyond belief. His daughter is an ADULT and should be allowed to live, and DIE, as she wishes.

[obamanut2012]

17. I love that song

Because of the message it embodies, just as your uncle lived his life to the fullest until his body knew it was time to go.


Adding video link:

[madaboutharry]

9. A grown woman has the right to refuse medical treatment.

If only the parents could understand the depth of their cruelty by not allowing their daughter to have her wish.

[4th law of robotics]

10. 28. She is well in to being of the age of majority

the parents can be upset all they want but legally they should have no say.

To actually go to court to force your child to suffer simply because you can't realize your beliefs are yours only is disgusting. What horrible people.

[WinkyDink]

11. Is 28 not legal adulthood? This shouldn't even be allowed in court.

[obamanut2012]

18. And TWICE the courts have stopped her legal medical wishes

[snooper2]

23. stupid fucking religous fundies...

Why don't you have a little respect for your daughter instead of a thousands year old book written by a bunch of old men who didn't even know what causes waves?

[malaise]

24. Those are evil parents

What's more they have no legal standing since she's an adult.

[Arkansas Granny]

25. I feel sorry for the parents. It's very hard to lose a child, but, in this case,

the child is an adult, fully aware of what is going on and her wishes to have life support removed should be honored.

[valerief]

28. I don't feel sorry for cruel, stupid, fearful people. nt

[yellowcanine]

39. The parents should go to her bedside and ask her what she wants to do.

And then abide by her wishes. It is not suicide to ask for artificial life support to be removed.

[Mariana]

51. They don't give a fuck what she wants. nt.

[Pithlet]

71. I felt bad for them, too, even though I feel the court ultimately ruled correctly in letting her go.

This broke my heart, from the father: “The thought of her dying, my heart tremors, everything goes black,” I honestly think that in part they just had a hard time letting go. She wasn't critically ill for very long. This had to hit so, so hard. And I think the mother panicked when she overheard the conversation. Just awful. I can't even imagine. But I agree, it was her decision.

[valerief]

26. How torturous for the woman. Religion is torture. nt

[hlthe2b]

27. Damn those parents... This is HER choice. HERs alone.

May NO ONE take her clearly voiced choice and control to ensure as dignified death as possible.

This is just unbelievable. I normally would cut some slack to grieving parents in denial, but not here.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

40. Like many free-lance fundies, they're ignorant of their own tradition's theology

and many Koreans are fundamentalist Protestants. That variety of Christianity seems to agree with the rigid thinking that pervades much of Korean society, according to an acquaintance who lived there many years.

The idea of suicide as a leading automatically to hell comes from medieval Roman Catholic theology

In that line of thinking, suicide is murder, a mortal sin, murder of the self, and to be freed from damnation, you have to confess and do penance, which is obviously impossible if you're dead. So by that logic, suicides all go to hell. That was why they could not be buried in church cemeteries.

However, in evangelical Protestant thinking, you're supposed to be saved from hell by the grace of God through the sacrifice of Christ, so if you die as a believer, you're home free.

I don't agree with either view, but that's what they teach.

[liberalhistorian]

42. You are correct, that is the theology behind it.

Unfortunately, Catholicism hasn't really changed much since medieval times and the whole "suicide is damnation" nonsense is still too much a part of too many Catholic churches.

[obamanut2012]

84. It technically isn't part of doctrine anymore

As suicide is now understood to be the act of someone who is NOT in "their right mind," so is no longer a mortal sin. It is also NOT a sin for Catholics to refuse medical treatment for themselves.

The Church is still beyond backwards on many issues, but at least there is some progress on this matter.

[Mariana]

52. Which Christian denominations teach

that refusing medical treatment to prolong life, when one has a terminal disease, equals suicide? Are there any?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

73. I don't know of any, but a lot of fundamentalists kind of make it up as they go along

No, really.

[obamanut2012]

85. Catholic doctrine allows adults to refuse medical treatment for themselves

It's when they refuse it for others that the matter can either be grey or black and white, depending.

[liberalhistorian]

41. Well, as a Christian, I can say

that, religiously, she has the right to make her own choices in everything, including life or death choices. We are endowed with free will, we were not created as robots. It's the RW fundies who have twisted that into such a pretzel that it now means to them that THEY have the right to make such decisions for others, especially women. Now, I my heart goes out to these parents, especially as a parent myself, I can't imagine what they are going through and what their grief is doing to them. But this is their daughter's decision, not theirs, and she is the one who has the right to make it, not them. And if she's terminal, she will not recover anyway.

[BOG PERSON]

45. dumbass kkkonservatives won't let their daughter make the ultimate decision

typikkkal republic illogic

[Sheepshank]

47. Using religious rhetoric sucks

but what if the rhetoric is that God would want this girl in his presence. he gave her a sickness that surely would have taken her al long time ago if not fot he artificial means to keep her alive.

It make me sick that people, evangelicals, will interpret the will of god to suit their personal preferences...somtimes it's the natural way of things that are only acceptable, but suddenly the artificial means of life must be maintained. Not just this situation, but birthcontrol too.

[Mariana]

54. It's certainly a handy tool for manipulating people.

Like these parents have done.

[Initech]

50. I've said it before and I'll say it again: the fundies do not give a shit about children!!!!!!

[HappyMe]

53. Breaking right now --

The court denied the parent's legal action. They found the woman competent to make her own decisions.

[hifiguy]

67. Good.

It is readily apparent the court stayed the injunction only long enough to review the record developed in the lower court. That record seems abundantly clear given the story linked in the OP. May this poor young woman quickly find peace. It's her choice and no one else's.

[obamanut2012]

87. GOOD!

[dkf]

55. This is so sad.

My mom often tells me that she wants me to believe so I can be in heaven with my family when we have left this world. The thought makes me cry because I know she does this out of love...

But I have a hard time with the Christian church and especially with the hypocrisy and dictates.

I wonder if Grace is so miserable and in pain that all she wants is relief. But I also understand that for those who believe there is more than this world.

I don't know what to say.

[Mariana]

68. The overwhelming majority of Christians

do not believe that letting a terminal disease take its course is equal to suicide. I can't think of a single denomination that requires dying people to remain on life support indefinitely in order to go to heaven. If the parents really believe that, they are on the extreme fringe.

[HockeyMom]

72. Catholic Hospital my Mom was in

They honored her DNR. That is leaving her life or death in "god's" hands, not man's medical science. Not the same thing at all as Assisted Suicide.

This issue came up on Freepers site. The MAJORITY said that putting life and death issues in the hands of "god" was not anti-life. It was only the extremists, life at all costs and taken away from individuals, who disagreed.

[tallahasseedem]

62. Let her go in peace.

This is such a tragic story, my heart breaks for this woman.

[Duer 157099]

63. It's all about suffering and torture. God's plan for you.

Assholes.

[mrs_p]

65. They should allow her to determine her own destiny

and let her know they love her so much they will respect her wishes.

[spanone]

81. i don't get it, if these folks believe in the afterlife, what's the big friggin' deal?

pass on dear.....

[proud2BlibKansan]

83. She's 28. Let her decide.