UN says only 7000 kids have been bombed in gaza...

[ExciteBike66]

I'm not sure of the latest number, but the IDF in March estimated they had killed 13000 hamas fighters.

Is it really a good thing that they are bombing 1 child for every two hamas members?

[no_hypocrisy]

1. "Only"

Sigh . . . . . Children, dead. Some starved to death. Others dying after excruciating pain from wounds.

[ExciteBike66]

7. Yep,

My kid is turning 10 in three days, which has caused me to have several, much more intensely phrased posts removed by the jury...

[Crunchy Frog]

18. Hope you'll be careful.

If you get five posts removed in a given time period, you're pretty much finished here.

[Bad Thoughts]

24. "Only" does not explicitly carry any judgements or minimizations

In context, it means few or fewer.

[marble falls]

27. Beat me to it.

[SarahD]

33. Tempted to get sarcastic.

I wanted to say something like, "Great news! I feel so much better." But I can't bring myself to joke about children dying, even though I do love sarcasm.

[LakeArenal]

51. Some surviving with a lifetime of pain and scars.

[AloeVera]

59. And disease, epidemics caused by bad sanitation.

No safe water, if any.

Hundred of thousands, maybe half a million, forced to flee ad hoc in recent days from "safe" Rafah to inadequate refugee camps with NO WATER, NO SANITATION. Per Oxfam or Unicef chief.

Where is that safe evacuation and adequate shelters and infrastructure that was the red line? The disease, epidemics and starvation will cause deaths that will dwarf those reported so far, and the quibbling here over numbers will be put to shame.

[Think. Again.]

2. That is the number that they were able to identify by age.

[Bettie]

13. And who knows how many

are buried under rubble.

[Think. Again.]

44. Excellent point...

The UN reports at least 10,000.

[lapucelle]

47. The Hamas Government Media Office and Palestinian Civil Defense reported that number to the UN.

UN/OCHA transcribes the data that Hamas gives it and publishes the Hamas numbers as an infographic with an appended disclaimer.

Disclaimer: The UN has so far not been able to produce independent, comprehensive, and verified casualty figures; the current numbers have been provided by Ministry of Health or Government Media Office in Gaza and the Israeli authorities and await further verification.

Other yet-to-be verified figures are also sourced.

https://www.ochaopt.org/sites/default/files/Gaza_casualties_info-graphic_3_May_2024.pdf

[Think. Again.]

49. Yes, that is the number the UN is reporting.

[lapucelle]

50. It is the number that Hamas is reporting. UN/OCHA transcribes, posts, and disclaims. N/T

[Think. Again.]

52. Yes, the UN is reporting those numbers.

[lapucelle]

63. Yes, the UN relays the Hamas numbers with a disclaimer that they are unverified.

[AloeVera]

58. Don't confuse those buried under rubble ...

With the 10,000 inidentified dead.

No one knows anymore how many are buried under rubble. Back in November 7,000 people were missing and assumed buried under rubble. But reporting on that stopped due to the massive destruction, blackouts and and lack of resources. It's grim.

[Think. Again.]

60. I see, thank you...

...so you're saying there are 10,000 unidentified plus an unknown number buried in the rubble?

Grim is putting it lightly. I just hope all of this stops very soon. I'm becoming seriously disgusted with hmanity.

[AloeVera]

62. Agree with your last sentence.

That IS what I'm saying. Except the 10,000 unidentified are not just children. They are people who are either so horribly mangled/in pieces or no one claimed or identified them. They are Jane/John Does.
We don't know how many of them are children.

Nor do we know how many are buried under the rubble, lying in impromptu or mass graves and unrecorded, or died from untreated diseases or illnesses, lack of pre-post-natal care etc etc. You simply can't bomb a society back to the stone age and not know the dire human cost.

[malaise]

3. One is too many

That is all

[marble falls]

28. Bingo.

[Mossfern]

38. On THAT

I will agree with you Malaise - 100%!

[yardwork]

4. It's horrible. I'm very grateful that Biden is president.

I know he's doing everything he can to encourage a resolution. It's difficult when one side - Hamas - are sadistic terrorists who don't care how many innocent people they kill in their attempt to destroy Israel.

[ExciteBike66]

12. True about hamas

But bombing kids is not a good strategy for the side that claims to be morally just.

[yardwork]

14. I'm not happy about it, either.

I don't agree with Netanyahu's approach.

[Torchlight]

37. Do not all sides in all wars make the claim of righteousness and justice?

Tel Avis does so. As does the Hamas leadership, Haniyeh, Marzuk and Mashal, while leading their luxury lifestyles in Qatar.

[ExciteBike66]

53. Bombing kids is not a good strategy for either side

But equating Israel with hamas doesn't do Israel any favors...

[Torchlight]

54. Nor does the focus on one at the expense of the other grant favors.

"But bombing kids is not a good strategy for the side that claims to be morally just."

I'd assert it's not a good strategy for any side, independent of, and irrelevant to unsupported claims of moral superiority.

[RockRaven]

5. If people can get you engaged in an argument about exact figures, they can

derail you from engaging with the morality or strategic prudence of what is being done.

And, fwiw, it sounds like you've bought some spin/selective quoting and not the report actually said or meant.

[ExciteBike66]

9. I'm not to concerned about the report as such

No one is denying that thousands of kids are dead in gaza. Arguing over the exact number is pointless in that context.

[marble falls]

29. Exacly as Malaise said, one is too many.

[AloeVera]

36. Yup, don't buy into the spin of JP reporter.

The UN simply changed its methodology to exclude 10,000 dead who have not been identified. We don't know how many of those are women, children, elderly.

This is being used dishonestly to claim a 50% reduction when it is far from the truth.

But imagine "only" 7,000 children and 5,000 or so women. We focus on that, while also fighting the misinformation and dishonesty where we can.

[Beastly Boy]

6. It's a bad thing.

Which doesn't excuse the UN from reporting fake stats on Gaza. UN is supposed to be a legitimate organization, or so I've heard.

[ExciteBike66]

8. Why would i give two ***** about whether or not the UN is 100% right in their numbers

Is that supposed to make me feel better about the fact that kids are being bombed over there?

Its sad that some people spend their time nit picking the stats while kids are dying.

[Beastly Boy]

20. If your purpose was not to legitimize UN numbers that they get from Hamas, why bring them up?

Would it make any difference to you if the UN excluded active Hamas fighters younger than 18 from the reported numbers of "kids" and it turned out that only 5000 "kids" were killed in Gaza?

Would it make any difference to you if, out of those 5000 kids, the vast majority were killed in the vicinity of Hamas military targets? Would it make any difference if the international law puts the responsibility for those deaths squarely on Hamas?

You wouldn't give two shits about that, would you? Then, what is the purpose for bringing up the UN statistics in the first place? Would it make you feel any better if it was 1 child for every 500 hamas fighters?

It wouldn't make me feel any better.

Obviously the numbers you brought up in your OP have nothing to do with your concerns. So I see no purpose for bringing them up in the first place.

[ilovegamers43]

35. Why are you so upset about

Numbers If they are just numbers and do not matter?

[Beastly Boy]

39. I believe you directed this post to me in error.

It is the OP who is upset about numbers. I am just pointing out the absurdity of bringing up the numbers to obfuscate the reason that the OP claims to be upset about.

[Eko]

56. Historically the Deaths Hamas reports are correct.

They can be verified to a certain degree and are considered valid. "The United Nations and other international institutions and experts, as well as Palestinian authorities in the West Bank — rivals of Hamas — say the Gaza ministry has long made a good-faith effort to account for the dead under the most difficult conditions." "“The numbers may not be perfectly accurate on a minute-to-minute basis,” said Michael Ryan, of the World Health Organization’s Health Emergencies Program. “But they largely reflect the level of death and injury.” In previous wars, the ministry’s counts have held up to U.N. scrutiny, independent investigations and even Israel’s tallies. "

[lapucelle]

65. According to your link, 13,000 of the reported deaths were not reported through ministry data.

The numbers are calculated using a combination of hospital data and public sources

The health ministry's figures rely mostly on hospital emergency rooms, which record information about patients who come in. Hospitals tally the number of people dying in their overflowing hallways and operating rooms each day.

According to the ministry, more than 17,000 Palestinian deaths have been recorded this way, with the victim's name and other information recorded in the electronic database unless the body cannot be identified, in which case it is indicated as such.

snip=========================

The other 13,000 or so deaths in its overall total of 30,000 are based on accounts from "reliable media sources," though the ministry doesn't cite or say which sources those are..

https://www.npr.org/2024/02/29/1234159514/gaza-death-toll-30000-palestinians-israel-hamas-war

[Eko]

66. and the rest

"Al-Qudra tells NPR this reliance on public sources of information is the result of multiple communication blackouts, in which phone lines and internet service were cut in Gaza, sometimes for more than a week. This made it difficult to communicate with hospitals and upload the number of casualties to the ministry's database. During some of these blackouts, the ministry in Gaza couldn't provide daily death toll figures."
And your point is?

[lapucelle]

67. Your post touted the past reliability of Gaza Ministry of Health numbers,

but 13,000 of the reported deaths were not reported by the ministry.

[Eko]

69. Of course they were reported by the ministry.

"Al-Qudra tells NPR this reliance on public sources of information is the result of multiple communication blackouts, in which phone lines and internet service were cut in Gaza, sometimes for more than a week. This made it difficult to communicate with hospitals and upload the number of casualties to the ministry's database. During some of these blackouts, the ministry in Gaza couldn't provide daily death toll figures."
Who is Al-Qudra? Why he is the health ministry spokesman in Gaza. They reported those numbers and said why they did.

[lapucelle]

70. Yes, I know who he is.

I also know that some of the deaths were reported by the Gaza Media Office. At least that's what OCHA says in its disclaimer.

[Eko]

71. Ok.

So I take it you think they are wrong. Fine, that is your opinion. All available evidence points that it is correct. Have a great night.

[lapucelle]

73. OCHA might think the Gaza Media Office is wrong as well.

OCHA is no longer using GMO as the source for casualty demographics.

--------------------------------------------------

May 3



--------------------------------------------------

May 8

[Eko]

74. From may 3rd to may 8th the numbers went up.

If the GMO was problematic it is not making your point at all. The numbers did not go down, they went up.

[lapucelle]

83. Like I said in my post, the UN is no longer using the Gaza Media Office

as the source for the casualty demographics.

[Eko]

86. Ok.

So I still am unsure of what your point is.
Thanks,
Eko.

[John Shaft]

10. One is too many . . .

[sarisataka]

11. I recall when it was reported 44 babies were beheaded

because a reporter misquoted an IDF member. There were screams of "Propaganda", "Lies", "We can't trust anything Israel says", etc, some particularly ghoulish demands were made for pictures... However when the UN says Hamas is inflating children's death counts by thousands it gets a shrug at best.

In my perfect world, all of the children are alive. In the real world they are not, yet the difference in reactions is jarring.

[ExciteBike66]

17. Sure, just like some folks seem satisfied that the UN was wrong.

They concentrate on the trivial idea that the numbers are inflated, when even the uninflated numbers should horrify them.

[sarisataka]

21. We are in agreement

it was trivial to argue of how many Jewish babies were beheaded. One death, let alone beheading, should have been horrifying enough. Yet much electronic ink was spilled to try to get an accurate number.

Do you think all of the past (and ongoing) questioning of exactly how many Jews were murdered/raped with demands for details has any relation to those who question the numbers of Palestinians killed?

[Happy Hoosier]

15. Why did Hamas start this war?

Put the blame where it belongs. Why doesn't Hamas surrender? Why aren't "Pro-Palestinian" partisans calling for Hamas to surrender?

[ExciteBike66]

19. So Israel could nuke gaza and it would be hamas's fault, no blame at all for Israel?

No. Even if one side in a war didn't start it, they still cannot bomb kids.

[Happy Hoosier]

25. Why are you putting words in to my mouth?

I never said that. And I do not support it.

But I'm sick of "Pro-Palestine" advocates ignoring who started this recent flare up.

I'm perfectly willing to hold Israel respoinsible for proper restraint and the protection of civilians. But we must also hold Hamas responsible. *I have heard ZERO outrage from some sectors about Hamas embedding itself in areas with many civilians.

It's "pellucidly clear" that the criticism is exrtremely one-sided from some factions here on DU.

[Demsrule86]

42. What do you think happened after 911? We invaded Afghanistan and Iraq. We were attacked. Israel was attacked.

We need to force both parties to the bargaining table if possible. But we are not bombing kids. In fact, Biden won't ship them weapons.

[SarahD]

82. Oops! I think you made a little slip..

We did invade Iraq, but Iraq had nothing to do with attacking us. We killed countless numbers of Iraqis for no apparent reason.

[Demsrule86]

84. I know that but it was tied to 9-11. We all know there were other reasons. And I don't disagree that it was wrong.

But where were the protests? The clue to these protests is in the anti-Jewish rhetoric. We need to encourage a deal and ultimately a two-state solution. It is in everyone's best interest.

[SarahD]

85. I agree it was tied to 911.

Because we allowed it to be. Because we and our spineless political leaders accepted the transparently false WMD rationalization. And there were demonstrations. Lots of them. I participated.

[Crunchy Frog]

23. Why did Netenyahu spend decades helping to prop up Hamas?

[Happy Hoosier]

26. Because he's a right wing nut who wants to perpetuate conflict.

I am not defending Netenyahu. Never have. The sooner that asshole is gone, the better.

That doesn't mean Hamas gets a fucking pass.

[Crunchy Frog]

32. Not giving Hamas a pass, but it seems that both sides are responsible for "starting" the war,

and neither Hamas nor the Netenyahu government give damn about the lives or welfare of either Israeli or Palestinian civilians.

The war didn't start on 10/7 either. The conflict has been going on pretty much continuously for longer than I've been alive, and both sides have been fueling it.

[LeftInTX]

48. Netanyahu displayed hubris and negligence

However, blaming Netanyahu for Hamas attack is like blaming parents for their spoiled adult kids.

When Netanyahu wasn't looking Hamas built tons of tunnels and prepared for attacks. He should have looked, because Hamas is like a bunch of bratty kids. But he certainly didn't say, "Here's some money build up your terror network with it".

He thought he could divide the Palestinians politically, but seriously if he knew he was emboldening their terror network, I think he would have clamped down.

Hamas has proven that you can't give an inch when it comes to dealing with them.

If we say, "It's Bibi's fault", it makes Hamas look so helpless and incompetent that they actually need Bibi in order to survive.
If that's the case, they should have gotten inline once Israel threw down the gauntlet. They didn't get in line and they seem to be doing quite well while after seven months of sustained attack.

Yes, I fault Bibi for negligence. Vigilance and clamp downs on his part might have prevented Hamas infrastructure's terror network.
However, it's not his fault that Hamas turned out to be a bunch of Iranian style kamikazis with billions of foreign bitcoin dollars financing their terror infrastructure.

[Crunchy Frog]

57. I'm not blaming Bibi alone, I'm suggesting that

both sides bear responsibility. I'm not buying that Bibi is as naive about Hamas as you seem to think he is. I think it's also very likely that Hamas knew exactly how Bibi was likely to react, and launched their attack with that in mind.

The real tragedy is what Bibi did to help engineer the assassination of Rabin. I think that probably ended whatever chance there was for the establishment of some sort of stable peace in the region, which Bibi clearly didn't want.

[marble falls]

30. For political points by bragging "I've got Hamas tamped down so re-elect me!"

[brush]

16. How does the UN know? Have they counted the mass graves, those buried under rubble?

How do they know?

[Crunchy Frog]

22. I think they follow similar protocols in their counting of deaths in Ukraine.

They only count the ones that they can document, and most of the deaths have happened in places they can't reach. So they don't count the likely tens of thousands of deaths from the bombing of Mariupol, or the flooding deaths from the russian controlled left bank of the Kherson region after russia blew the dam, or civilian massacres in russian controlled cities, towns, and villages. Sometimes people use the official numbers to try to downplay the severity of the war, or make dishonest comparisons between Ukraine and Gaza.

I'd guess that they're dealing with many of the same issues in Gaza though. In the current chaos it's likely not possible for them to document every war related death. That fact shouldn't be used to downplay things.

[Beastly Boy]

40. They are not.

By their own admission, they are relying on the numbers provided to them by the Hamas Health authority.

Only recently did they begin to include a disclaimer to this effect in their reports. In very small print.

[lapucelle]

46. Hamas reports the numbers to the UN,

and OCHA publishes the Hamas numbers as an infographic. That's why the OCHA information page includes a disclaimer.

Disclaimer: The UN has so far not been able to produce independent, comprehensive, and verified casualty figures; the current numbers have been provided by the Ministry of Health or Government Media Office in Gaza and the Israeli authorities and await further verification.

Other yet-to-be verified figures are also sourced.

https://www.ochaopt.org/sites/default/files/Gaza_casualties_info-graphic_8_May_2024.pdf

--------------------------------------------------------------------

It appears that OCHA is no longer specifically citing the Gaza Media Office as the source for the breakdown numbers of women and children killed.

The May 3 infographic:
https://www.ochaopt.org/sites/default/files/Gaza_casualties_info-graphic_3_May_2024.pdf

The May 8 infographic:
https://www.ochaopt.org/sites/default/files/Gaza_casualties_info-graphic_8_May_2024.pdf

----------------------------------------------------

On May 8, there was an unexplained change in the way OCHA is choosing to report and present the Hamas's fatality numbers.

OCHA should specifically address why they are no longer citing the Gaza Media Office for the numbers of women and children killed and exactly what informed their decision to downgrade those numbers.

As for the disclaimer, the public deserves to know exactly which data on the information page are verified and which are not. Noting that "Other yet-to-be verified figures are also sourced" is unhelpful at best.

[lapucelle]

64. The UN publishes Ukraine casualty reports through its agency, the Human Rights Monitoring Mission in Ukraine (HRMMU)

Here's the protocol:

Methodology

HRMMU collects information about civilian harm from conflict-related violence from a wide range of sources, including through interviews with victims, their relatives, and witnesses; open-source information, including photo and video material; forensic records and reports; criminal investigation materials; court documents; reports by international and national non-governmental organisations; public reports by law enforcement and military actors; data from medical facilities and local authorities.

All sources and information are assessed for their relevance and credibility and cross-checked against other information. In some instances, corroboration takes time. This means that conclusions on civilian casualties may be revised as more information becomes available and numbers may change as new information emerges over time.

Statistics presented in the current update are based on individual records of civilian harm where the “reasonable grounds to believe” standard of proof was met, namely where, based on a body of verified information, an ordinarily prudent observer would have reasonable grounds to believe that the harm took place as described. HRMMU refers to information that meets this criteria as “verified.”

https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/2024-02/two-year-update-protection-civilians-impact-hostilities-civilians-24.pdf

[Crunchy Frog]

75. The truth is that it's pretty much impossible

for the UN to verify deaths in places that they are not able to access. Those places include Mariupol and the areas most affected by the man made flooding, are completely cut off from the outside world and any sorts of independent agencies.

There have been mass graves found in all areas that have been freed from russian occupation, but again, most areas under occupation have not been liberated, and there's no possible way to access and count them, let alone people who's bodies have been disposed of, who have been killed on the territory of russia, or washed into the sea, or bulldozed under rubble and paved over. Those numbers can't even be meaningfully estimated.

So yes, I know they have a methodology and a protocol. I'm just saying that it can't in any way capture the real numbers, which will almost certainly never be known.

[AZSkiffyGeek]

31. So Hamas makes up numbers, and you take them as gospel

But the UN VERIFIES numbers and you don't believe them.
Good to know you trust terrorists over the UN.

[brush]

45. Please, I certainly didn't say that. I asked how does the UN know?

Two different things altogether, don't you think?

[marble falls]

34. As long as they can't show their math none died? One dead Gazan child is too many. One dead Israeli child is too many.

.

[Demsrule86]

41. Palestinian children are in the line of fire because Hamas attacked Israel. I don't think Israel right either.

Their response is nothing but a land grab if you ask me. And I think that Netanayuh planned a wag-the-dog operation...he gave money to Hamas which funded the attack on Israel. And remember Israelis are in the streets protesting. Let's hope to God they get Netanyahu out. This is not our war. Biden has condemned it and is refusing to send weapons to Israel. That is all we can do. I do not wish to send any troops. This is something Israel and Palestine have to solve...not us. All the protests and despicable antisemitic crap I have been seeing will accomplish nothing. In fact, I think it makes a deal less likely. And we should always remember American Jews have no responsibility in this matter...not the adults and not the kids. We need to do our best to make Israel and Palestine negotiate and reach a peaceful conclusion.

[Darwins_Retriever]

43. Children in every war die

How many died in the 6-day war, especially by the initial attacks by the Arab nations. Or the Yom Kippur war. Or the other attacks, especially by organizations such as Hamas, Black October, PLO ... How many children have died from the never ending Hamas rocket attacks, they were intended to attack population centers not military targets.

[AloeVera]

61. Not like this.

In the last 76 years, just over 5,000 Israeli civilians have been killed in wars, intifadas, Oct 7 etc. The majority adults.

In 2 years of war, 600 children were killed in Ukraine.

In just 7 months, at least 8,000 children have been killed in Gaza. Not including those unidentified or buried under rubble.

It's always been a question of proportionality and morality.

[Crunchy Frog]

78. How many children were killed in Mariupol?

If thousands of children die in bombing attacks and there's nobody there to count them, did they really die? You seem to be suggesting that they didn't.

[AloeVera]

79. Not suggesting that.

I went with the UN figures of identified children. But you are right. It needs to be added that civilian casualties in Mariupol, including children, are vastly understated. HRW estimates there were around 8,000 excess deaths, though it's not clear how many were combatants. The Mayor and others have estimated from 25,000 to 75,000 casualties. We may never know the true figure. It was a horrific war crime.

Of course people and children die and the counting or not makes no difference to that fact. As is the case with Gaza, many are uncounted, buried under rubble or in mass or makeshift graves.

Thanks for pointing that out and mea culpa.

[elias7]

55. Of course even one is too many, but then why respond?

The point of the report is that Hamas lies. And that maybe Israel can be slightly less demonized as not being so randomly indiscriminate as they have been accused of.

[DemocraticPatriot]

68. "ONLY seven thousand children bombed".....

OK. 'Got it'.

Whatever the true numbers---- it is too goddamned many,
especially if you are one of those dead children....

[BannonsLiver]

72. The unofficial DU number is 10 times that.

[LuvLoogie]

81. That straw dog won't hunt

[Aussie105]

76. There is a lot of convoluted thinking involved

by a lot of people to make this all OK with them.

I'm not one of them.

But I will say no more.

[AllyCat]

77. Only 7000. Well that's so much more comforting.

Actually, not. It’s terrible.

[lees1975]

80. One child on either side is too many.

Do they hate each other so much that they demand the blood of their children?