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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsDad's 'I am bitterly, bitterly disappointed' email to adult kids goes viral
CNN) -- They're calling it the "Crews missile."
Fired from the keyboard of 67-year-old Nick Crews, the missive blew the lid off his dysfunctional family.
In an e-mail titled "Dear All Three," published in U.K. newspaper The Telegraph, Crews excoriates his three grown children for their professional and personal failures and for the "bitter disappointment each of you has in your own way dished out" to him and his wife.
Crews, a retired British naval officer, was fed up with his children's unsuccessful marriages and inability to earn a living that, as he said, measures up to their potential.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/30/living/telegraph-nick-crews-email/index.html?hpt=hp_t3
'I am bitterly, bitterly disappointed': retired naval officer's email to children in full
This is the full email that retired Royal Navy officer Nick Crews sent to his son and two daughters in February expressing his and his wife's disappointment in them.
------------------
Dear All Three
With last evening's crop of whinges and tidings of more rotten news for which you seem to treat your mother like a cess-pit, I feel it is time to come off my perch.
It is obvious that none of you has the faintest notion of the bitter disappointment each of you has in your own way dished out to us. We are seeing the miserable death throes of the fourth of your collective marriages at the same time we see the advent of a fifth.
We are constantly regaled with chapter and verse of the happy, successful lives of the families of our friends and relatives and being asked of news of our own children and grandchildren. I wonder if you realise how we feel — we have nothing to say which reflects any credit on you or us. We don't ask for your sympathy or understanding — Mum and I have been used to taking our own misfortunes on the chin, and making our own effort to bash our little paths through life without being a burden to others. Having done our best — probably misguidedly — to provide for our children, we naturally hoped to see them in turn take up their own banners and provide happy and stable homes for their own children.
(snip)
I can now tell you that I for one, and I sense Mum feels the same, have had enough of being forced to live through the never-ending bad dream of our children's underachievement and domestic ineptitudes. I want to hear no more from any of you until, if you feel inclined, you have a success or an achievement or a REALISTIC plan for the support and happiness of your children to tell me about. I don't want to see your mother burdened any more with your miserable woes — it's not as if any of the advice she strives to give you has ever been listened to with good grace — far less acted upon. So I ask you to spare her further unhappiness. If you think I have been unfair in what I have said, by all means try to persuade me to change my mind. But you won't do it by simply whingeing and saying you don't like it. You'll have to come up with meaty reasons to demolish my points and build a case for yourself. If that isn't possible, or you simply can't be bothered, then I rest my case.
I am bitterly, bitterly disappointed.
Dad
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/9686219/I-am-bitterly-bitterly-disappointed-retired-naval-officers-email-to-children-in-full.html
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wickerwoman
(5,662 posts)grew up to be whiners who don't ask his advice.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)kids don't want to have anything to do with them from now on.
In this country, my husband and I in our travels, met many aged couples whose children refused to have anything to do with them and they couldn't understand why. Yet, when you asked them what their kids were like, all you heard was a string of complaints about how they had been a disappointment. No doubt the kids heard about it endlessly too, to the point that they decided they didn't need that kind of negativity in their lives.
That's exactly right.
I actually belong to a board for adults who are now dealing with abuse suffered in childhood. Often times it's subtle, constant emotional abuse and the child (now adult) often breaks contact because of some last straw. Usually it's the parent blaming the child for something yet again or the parent refusing to take responsibility for something they've done that wasn't so nice and it's a pattern. The parents often tell everyone their sob story about their 'ungrateful' children, leaving out the part where there has been dysfunction and abuse and that the kids have put up with more than enough already.
Darth_Kitten
(14,192 posts)It works both ways. How about parents who are open and try to have a relationship with their kids but the kids are somehow encouraged to blame their parents whenever life doesn't go to plan?
laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)I hear about those mythical horrible children-creatures who are encouraged (where can you tell me is this 'encouragement' coming from?) to blame their parents, but I haven't run into any yet. I HAVE run into kids who were emotionally abused by their parents and whose parents have made their lives a living hell.
Professional victims - I know that term came from somewhere...I...just...can't...place....it.....
yeswehavenobananas
(10 posts)that Mumsy and Dada spoiled the children (doesn't he mention money borrowed?) and realized way too late that they had made their children dependent. And when they put their foot down, the kids got pissed. I mean, how did this email go viral in the first place? 
Sounds like the kids took revenge to make them look bad.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)It's something smug judgmental dicks say. Why not just put on a hat that says "smug, judgmental dick" and call it a day?
Quantess
(27,630 posts)How is it pronounced? When people write that, do they actually mean "whining"?
Dark n Stormy Knight
(9,771 posts)Quantess
(27,630 posts)Different pronunciation, too.
Dark n Stormy Knight
(9,771 posts)it's a different word. 
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)i have a fucked up brother that over 50 is still taking hand outs from my father to such an extent he has gone thru his retirement money. and still, he is without a job and my father is giving him money. in four months, my father looses our house payment, then what? or do we keep paying even though we are done and owe no more, really paying my brothers way.
my parents, who did such a kick as job watched brother and his wife fuck up their three kids lives from day one.
i get the letter.
he is at least allowing them the chance to put forth a reasoned argument.
and he is saying, no more. grow up, or no more. dont bring the garbage here.
i would start coming up with fun stories to tell mom and dad.
JustAnotherGen
(31,869 posts)Move over - I'm sticking my ass right out next to yours. I'll take the beating!
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)how about yours? my brother taught me well.
lapislzi
(5,762 posts)I think that in the main, if you raise them properly, most grow up just fine.
I don't lay a bunch of expectations on my kid, other than, get through college, support yourself, and use your common sense, which I did my level best to impart.
If the above doesn't work out, then I'm not going to throw it in her face. If she wants my help, I'll do what I can. If not...she's an adult, she's on her own. But her ADULT life is not about living up to MY expectations. I'll take what comes, knowing I have little to be ashamed of in the parenting department.
If your dad, seabeyond, is supporting your ne'er do well brother, that's his choice and, it could be argued, bad judgment. They're both adults.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)bah hahaha. those would be expectations. and pretty huge, encompassing ones at that. that is all i expect from mine. oh, and respect self and others. HUGE, expectation.
actually, the college thing is their choice. the do, or dont
and my father is old. he has a fixed income. it becomes my problem when we have to use my kids college fund, or our retirement to pay my fathers way. so ya, it matters.
lapislzi
(5,762 posts)It seems so second nature to me. I managed it even coming out of a dysfunctional family. And, she's in college, so I expect her to stay the course or embark on a reasonable alternative, so long as my money is involved. And the involvement of my money is my prerogative. I can pull that at any time.
Yes, I forgot about respect for self and others. But if you're doing your job as a parent, these things usually self resolve.
I did not mean to sound callous about your father's situation, and I would never presume to tell you what to do. One of the benefits of being an only child (me) is that I never had that to worry about.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)my thought, not every one is as good as you, lol. sigh... more than anything i wish i had finished college. and i tried twice. and i couldnt do it. academics was easy. it was being around so many people. ah well.
but see, those expectations is just second nature to you. and that is how they make the best expectations. cause, it is simply expected. t hat is when it gets done, lol.
and i get you do not know the circumstance. it is all good. it is what it is. 
Lightbulb_on
(315 posts)... and frankly that they should have.
Among these are that their children don't grow up to be losers, as appears to be the case here.
As long as the father is realistic about what could come as a result of this letter, then I fully support him.
yeswehavenobananas
(10 posts)what a "loser" or a "winner' is?
In any case, I suspect that the parents spoiled their kids and realized too late the monsters they had created.
I do despise his line about not having anything to credit themselves with. Children are too often an extension of the parents' egos. I have a feeling that the father feels like he failed his children and is taking it out on them instead of looking in the mirror.
NJCher
(35,713 posts)It might clue you in.
Or maybe you think it's OK to make decisions in life that are "copulation based."
Quote:
...so many of these events are copulation-driven, and then helplessly to see these lovely little people being so woefully let down by you, their parents.
Cher
dkf
(37,305 posts)Without the impact on the kids, pops wouldn't be so upset.
pnwmom
(108,990 posts)The children are all employed and have never been dependent on the father or on the state. The father just doesn't think they have fancy enough jobs to brag about. One of them, for example, works for a taxi service. Another is a mother of two toddlers, a 12 year old, and is married to a surgeon -- and she's been translating a book that's about to be published and has a small translating business.
Do you still fully support this father? Or do you think the children are better off now that he's cut the ties?
Darth_Kitten
(14,192 posts)Wow. 
yardwork
(61,700 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts),also, has a clear vision ... her Uncle taught her well. She has watched, as he has take the wrong path at just about every decision he has come to. Fortunately, she has a good comparator in her parents.
It's not that we have made all the right decisions, but she has seen how we survive, and work to correct, those bad ones we've made.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)all my kids life, it has been an example of how to trip up in life.
again... love him dearly, unconditional. he is who he is.
JustAnotherGen
(31,869 posts)I had extremely high expectations placed on me . . . And I don't think that's a bad thing. I guess because of my background there was an expectation that because YOU have been privileged then YOU have to excel. You have to stand up straight and fly right.
And well - there are people in America just waiting around for black women to fall - and it's not just Republicans.
Darth_Kitten
(14,192 posts)Doesn't take the handouts (there are none), but.....communication from her seems to be that whenever she's bitterly unhappy about life she calls up my mother and verbally berates her to the extent people on the other side of the house (albeit a small house) can overhear.
I noticed when she married her 2nd husband she suddenly started becoming a Victim. Sometimes you don't hear from her in a long time and then she calls up. Occasionally she is even civil, believe it or not, but how fair is it to have to put up with her changing moods? She can fool her kids and a few close friends, but she doesn't fool us.
wickerwoman
(5,662 posts)Yes it's reasonable if they were great parents, to expect their kids to either keep their negativity to themselves or to buckle down and work harder at careers and relationships.
But reading the letter, they come across as narcissists, not great parents. It's not "I'm sorry you went through that painful divorce" or even "Thank God you've finally had the sense to leave that abusive asshole", it's "How dare you leave me with nothing positive I can brag to my friends about" and "Why didn't you ask me and listen to my advice. I know everything."
Habibi
(3,598 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)Ask me all about it. I have 2 of them. The letter is consistent with how narcissistic parents act. They are apt to 'look good' on the outside and even seem reasonable to their audience, but for the children it's like death by a thousand pin pricks - subtle, crazymaking pin pricks.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)you may have a point. AND, i remember your story. we have talked about it. you would hear it easily.
laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)I'm flattered and humbled that you remember my story. I feel for the kids of this man. I'm a 'disappointment' to my parents as well, since I'm divorcing (he left me) and have 4 kids (they think that's too many). They aren't as public as this guy though - they only whisper it behind my back and couch it in acceptable terms, "poor laundry_queen, we've had to do so much to get her back on her feet and she still is not done school at her age. Tsk Tsk."
pnwmom
(108,990 posts)to spot another one.
But he's textbook.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)Narcissists often seem logical and reasonable to others. They are great politicians. They often treat their adult kids like children because that way, they keep control and they can have eternal youth. You can almost hear the desperation in this message--he can't live through any of his children now because they don't measure up, so they have taken away something HE deserved...
Yes I know Narcissism very well--it is so destructive. 
Dorian Gray
(13,498 posts)seems logical and reasonable. And who lumps all of their children into one group like this. Each would have strengths and weaknesses the other wouldn't have.
This just seems like a hardline jerk trying to knock what he considers sense into his children in a very public way.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)--they are buying his distress, feeling sorry for him, and not questioning the "logic" of his argument. He looks like a concerned parent, when all he really cares about is himself. This can be true even if he's a general "do-gooder" who others respect. Narcissists are very good at covering their selfishness, but they only do things for others that benefit themselves in some way. Think Rethuglicon businessmen.
You'd be surprised at how common it is for people to give guys like this a pass.
CoffeeCat
(24,411 posts)The biggest trick that narcissistic parents play is the subtle emotional abuse, as you said--"pinpricks." This is by design, too. Every day you are given subtle reminders that you are not good enough, or displeasing them. And of course, the narcissistic parent is cruel--dangling their acceptance and love like a carrot that can (and will) be yanked away at the slightest hint that you are not behaving EXACTLY as they demand.
Their demands on their children are not about helping their children to be good people. Those demands are about making the parent look good. Their children are props--objects to be discussed at cocktail parties and with colleagues.
And when their children grow up damaged, filled with self loathing because they know they will never meet their parents expectations--these narcissistic parents will turn on you without a thought. If you don't have the job that they can brag about or the cute grandchildren that they can discuss with their other vacuous friends--you are of no use to them. You must still be a prop, even as an adult.
As you probably know laundry queen--these parents are great at scapegoatting and backstabbing their own children. If their children do have problems that are obvious--these types of parents are very quick to jockey for position--labeling the adult child as the problem, the disappointment, the horrible perpetrator of pain and suffering for the adult. In my family, my siblings had problems with alcohol, drugs, eating disorders, depression and even one suicide attempt. All of this was pain from being raised in this toxic soup. But the pain was never acknowledged. These obvious signs of their failures--were annoyances and embarrassments to them. These people can't and won't see the humanity in their own children.
I cut off my malignant narcissistic parents many years ago. I started living the day I cut them off. They are very, very sick and damaged people.
I read this letter from this father--and I hope this is a springboard for these children to get some distance from these dysfunctional parents. Unfortunately, many children of parents like this are so damaged, that they remain connected--still desperately trying to get the love and acceptance that they have desperately needed as children. They're trauma bonded to these narcissists and until they find a good therapist and realize that their parents are flawed and toxic--they'll remain damaged children forever trying to please people who get off on inflicting emotional pain onto their children.
I'm glad his email went viral, demonstrating a bit of hope--that at least one of the children is saying "FU!"
yardwork
(61,700 posts)It's often the oldest sibling who will take on the responsibility of trying to please the toxic parents. She's probably also trying to get her younger siblings to forgive him. I see her desperately trying to "heal" this - she's probably played that role all her life. She's married to a surgeon, has three children (two of them babies), has started her own business, and is translating a book. It sounds like she is pretty successful to me - but apparently it's not good enough for mum and dad. Instead of telling them to take a hike she is defending them and beating herself up for not being good enough.
pnwmom
(108,990 posts)He views her as an extension of himself since she is apparently the least objectionable of his children, and she probably views herself that way, too. Very sad.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)And I'd guess that there's been years of abuse dished out by this man(and possibly his wife, although we have no real picture of her role in creating this family dynamic).
laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)pnwmom
(108,990 posts)children are really doing is showing strong signs of narcissism.
All three adult children are employed and none of them have required financial assistance from him or the state. And yet he wants to cut off communications with them unless they give him more to brag about.
(And I just read that the older daughter has three kids, is married to a surgeon, is translating a book that's about to be published, and started a small business.)
yardwork
(61,700 posts)
He was griping about the fact that other people have 'paragons' for children and he doesn't. It was all about him and his feelings of inadequacy at these dinner parties.
coalition_unwilling
(14,180 posts)that I read your response, I see that I am not alone.
pnwmom
(108,990 posts)not about loving his kids and caring for them.
And he probably doesn't like it that his wife cares about them, because he wants her attention all to himself.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Or he can't forgive them for not joining up as well.
pnwmom
(108,990 posts)the fact that he could have had a different life, that he stayed in the Navy only to be able to afford the private school tuition payments.
It is typical of a narcissist to blame his perceived failures on anyone handy.
Blasphemer
(3,261 posts)Just the fact of the letter being written was enough to raise a red flag for me but the contents certainly speak more for the parents than the children. Anyone who compares their lives to others, especially in terms of achievements that seem to be only attained for superficial reasons, doesn't have much room to throw stones. I don't have children but I sometimes find myself disappointed with the friends I have in my life. I immediately chastise myself and recognize that these are people who are in my life because I chose them as friends and allow them to be in my life. If there's a problem, it's with me and not them. I think these parents should so some self-reflection and figure out how they contributed to their own disappointments.
monmouth3
(3,871 posts)
ToxMarz
(2,169 posts)But he doesn't sound like a good parent. That is not an example of 'tough love'. The entire letter was about him, know wonder his children and he don't mesh well.
pnwmom
(108,990 posts)once they went to boarding school. Now he only cares about them insofar as they furnish material for bragging about to his friends. What a great father!
His problem, IMHO, is that he is a grandiose narcissist who is jealous of the attention his children get from his wife, who is meant to be his and his alone. There's nothing wrong with the kids -- they're all self-supporting and never needed money from him or the state. One of them has two toddlers, an older child, is married to a surgeon and is about to publish a book she translated -- and has a small translating business. But she just isn't special enough, apparently, to compete with the children of his friends.
What a jerk. The offspring are better off without him.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)Once they are adults your father has no obligation. My parents had another way. They would lend me the money I needed with a small interest rate and they made me sign a note to that effect with their bank that acted like an agent. Even though I might have gotten away with not paying the parents, I did have to pay the bank or get my credit trashed, wages garnished or worse.
Other than that your parents really have no business telling your brother how to live. Actually, it would be better if you and your other siblings, if you have them, criticize your brother about how he's raising your nieces and nephews. It carries more weight I have noticed when the aunts and uncles step in rather than the grandparents. I know it's very hard to sit back and do nothing, but sometimes that's unfortunately the injustice of the world.
Since I never had these problems, take what I'm saying with a grain of salt. I'm just speaking from observing friends, neighbors and coworkers going through these problems over the years.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)love
he says can i borrow. but, we understand it is give me, and not going to be mentioned and brought up again. you give money, understand it is a gift.
three decades.
dont know why he is like this and my other brother and i are not. it is all of who he is.
kids... meh, does no good to say anything. alcoholics. we are always there for them though. and spend the time with them, love them.
that is the best we can do. accept him for who he is. cause he isnt going to change. that expectation went away about a decade ago, lol.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)That conjures up two memories ...
The first occurred when I was about 11 years old. I asked my Dad to borrow $5.00 to purchase something or another. He said "Sure" and handed me the money. And off to the store I went.
About two weeks later, he took me to the store to buy a baseball glove ... I had been saving for it for months and baseball try-outs were about a week away. I spent about an hour trying out all the gloves ... I had to have just the right one. When I finally found it, I was really excited. As we walked to the check-out counter, I was chattering about the glove and how I was going to break it in just right.
When the cashier ran up the sale, it came to about $1.50 more than I had saved ... I forgot about the tax. But it was okay, my dad waas standing right next to me. I handed the cashier all the money I had, then turned to my father ... "Dad, can I borrow $1.50?" Imagine my horror when he looked me in the eye and said, "Nope, you still owe me $5.00." He went on to say, "Son, when say 'borrow' that means you get no more until you've paid back what you borrowed. If you had said, 'Can I have?', then I don't expect to get paid back."
So I had to put back the perfect glove and pick out a cheaper one. I didn't speak to my Dad all the way home; but it was a lesson, I never forgot.
The second memory involved my Brother-in-Law. I like him a lot; but as I mentioned above, he makes really bad decisions.
Well, my wife (having grown up very, very poor; but having made good for herself) had take to cutting her brother in on any lump sum money that she got ... Income tax refund, give her brother a couple hundred dollars; a big win at the casino, break her brother off some. In any given year, we'd give him a couple grand (and this went on for years); but I really didn't have a problem with this because I liked him and we were doing okay.
Well, in the course of one week, my car was totaled when BabyGirl 1StrongBlackMan decided that the garage door didn't really need to be open for her to park the car in the garage AND a tree limb blew down, destroying our parameter wall AND our main water line failed, underground, in the middle of the front yard. As you could imagine ... $6,000 in unplanned for insurance deductibles and plumbing cost, put a major crimp in our budget.
One afternoon, we ran into my Brother-in-law in a bar ... He was in there spending like a millionaire, buying round after round. So my wife whispered to him, asking to borrow $50.00 to get us to pay day. Her brother reached into his pocket and pulled out a knot that would choke a bear ... as he flipped past hundreds, to get to the smaller bills, he looked my wife in the eye and asked, "when you gonna pay me back?" Then, to make matters worse, he said, "What you're gonna need to do is follow me to {someone's) house. He owes me $50.00, I'll give you that."
My wife's mouth fell open and I just said, "Naw ... That's alright ... We're cool; we'll make do."
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)lmao. very generous. i think that is why he expects it from us. if he has money, he gives it away.
i liked your first story.
i have been able to do that with two of his kids. they are trying hard. i tell them, i will be your bank, as long as you pay back. first time you do not, i stop.
i am very lenient on the time and struggle to pay back.
interesting.
did your wife stop giving him chuncks of money?
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)She still gives him money whenever she thinks he's broke ... which is all the time.; but that's a fight, I'm not willing to fight.
Her response was her promising to me that she would never again ask him to borrow a dime ... My response to her response, "Yeah, that'll teach him!"
NJCher
(35,713 posts)I loved the baseball glove story.
Just a guess, but I'll bet it was very difficult for him to do that--would bet anything that he wanted you to have the better baseball glove.
Your pops was a gem. He put off his gratification--and yours--so you could learn a lesson.
Cher
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Dad (RIP) was a gem. He taught me daily life lessons and only lectured me once that I can remember.
I came home from a party, clearly under the influence of the weed ... he looked and me and quietly said, "you know what ... Those of us that smoked dope when we were young never amounted to much of anything", then he turned and walked away.
pnwmom
(108,990 posts)substance-free kids aren't working in fancy jobs that he can brag about to his friends?
According to the daughter who made the letter public (and who has reconciled with him), none of them have been getting any financial help from their parents. It is only by his definition that their lives aren't good enough for him.
What an ass.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)as i said, i am dealing with the same in my home. and i would like to see my father able to do that. but, he cant.
i went off what was in the letter.... and told my view without any back ground.
noamnety
(20,234 posts)About the three kids (adults): "Today she works in a sailing shop in Plymouth; Fred, married for the second time (he has just become a father for the second time) works for a taxi firm in the city; and Emily is struggling as a business interpreter."
And the dad's comments:
“It upsets me that they occupy basic-wage positions instead of working at the upper periphery of their capability. I would be mortified if they were to need — either immediately or in later life — state benefits. "
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/lifestyle/9699955/I-havent-done-well-as-a-father-have-I-Softer-side-of-the-man-who-fired-off-Crews-missile.html
Kelvin Mace
(17,469 posts)their father by not being wealthy and successful by his criteria.
What a dick!
Whisp
(24,096 posts)a climber. a nose up in the air arse.
if his kids are not measuring up to his snot snobbery, good for them.
Dad needs a attitude adjustment. I sure wouldn't want to have anything to do with a snob like that.
pnwmom
(108,990 posts)Most people I know wouldn't be ashamed of a daughter in her situation.
Marr
(20,317 posts)LiberalEsto
(22,845 posts)Each of my daughters has dropped out of 5 colleges, and left us with tens of thousands of dollars in student loans. Neither one has a degree, though one is 2 credits short of a BA and the other 3 credits short of an AA.
Neither one works at the moment, though the older one at least does work most of the time. The younger one hasn't worked in years and has a number of other issues I won't get into. Both live with us. Neither one has ever contributed a dime toward their student loans.
I tried my best to raise them well and set limits, rules, etc. Unfortunately my husband is a classic enabler who let them do whatever they wanted, and yelled at me if I raised my voice to them. Now he realizes the damage this has done, but it's too late.
I would give anything to see them finish their degrees. What I wouldn't give to attend someone's graduation. Get decent jobs. Pay their own way in life. (The older one does, except for the loans) Move out. I stopped writing Christmas letters to family and friends because I'm so ashamed and disappointed in my daughters.
Sukie
(573 posts)It is highly possible to have been a wonderful parent and still have whiny kids who grow into whiny adults. I also get the letter.
pnwmom
(108,990 posts)aren't fantastic enough to suit him.
It's not from a parent whose adult children are malingerers or slackers.
It's from a man who's complaining about his three adult children who are all employed and have never needed financial help from him or the state. One of his daughters has three children (2 toddlers), is married to a surgeon, and has been translating a book that's about to be published. Do you "get" why he would have sent that nasty letter to her?
It certainly is possible for a good parent to produce children with problems. But in that particular family, the father appears to be the main problem.
NJCher
(35,713 posts)Did you or did you not see that the reason the father is expressing these concerns is for his grandchildren!?
I think you're reading your own situation into this letter and you are ignoring what few facts we have.
Cher
pnwmom
(108,990 posts)is because he doesn't have anything to brag to his friends about?
"We are constantly regaled with chapter and verse of the happy, successful lives of the families of our friends and relatives and being asked of news of our own children and grandchildren. I wonder if you realise how we feel — we have nothing to say which reflects any credit on you or us."
Why should he be worried about the children of his oldest daughter, the one whose husband is a surgeon? Why did he send that letter to her?
He can pretend he's most worried about the grandchildren -- they're still young and cute enough that he likes them. But this is the father who admits to ignoring his children once they went to boarding school (which in England often starts at age 8). Sooner or later he won't like the grandchildren, either.
yardwork
(61,700 posts)As far as I've read, all three adult children are employed. The oldest daughter is married to a surgeon. I have not been able to find any evidence that the grandchildren are being neglected in any way.
What facts have you found?
Kelvin Mace
(17,469 posts)after all, Dad is "whinging" about how he has nothing to brag about to his friends.
His kids may be abject failures, but he is no prize. Also, success is not just measured by having a job and staying married. I have seen many miserable people who wouldn't leave a bad job or a bad spouse for a variety of bogus reasons.
pnwmom
(108,990 posts)from the state or from the parents.
And his oldest daughter has three children, is married to a surgeon, is translating a book that's about to be published, and started up a small business.
the father is a dick.
Common Sense Party
(14,139 posts)sabotaging the lives of their own children.
RepublicansRZombies
(982 posts)and intentionally sabotage their own adult children's families.
Just because you are old or a parent, doesn't make you wise.
Narcissists are very good at telling their story from their point of view and making others look bad even if they have to make it all up.
Other people naturally believe them because they are rich, confident and appear to have it together....sort of like Rush Limbaugh.
randome
(34,845 posts)But a father who excoriates his children instead of sticking it out with them through thick and thin sounds like he has an inability to communicate well.
My daughters are only 15. But if they turn out badly -which I truly can't see happening- I would blame myself first.
agracie
(950 posts)because I've been there (am STILL THERE) and done that with three allegedly grown children of my own.
840high
(17,196 posts)
vaberella
(24,634 posts)She did not have a good life. Struggled a great deal with me as a single mother before she met my step-dad (daddy) and he helped her until he passed away. Now she's back on that road. But now she's older and I am also an adult. I kept thinking, she paid for my two Bachelor's and my Masters degree. This woman put me through catholic schooling and for year after year---even if I accomplished those degrees I have put off passing into adulthood. I.E. I had yet to forge my own career and create my own life. When I finally did that, now I am a full time teacher and I'm able to pay her rent and helped her out a great deal.
But none of that happened until I reflected on ways that I was disappointing her and seeing how she worked super hard for me. I have to do that for her. I don't blame the man in this letter and I think if his kids are serious they will see where he's coming from. My mother stated to me she was disappointed but it wasn't until I got my life in order did she say she was...I think there's a bit of that for every parent when they see their kids not taking life by the horns and making the best of their lot in it.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)and it is good seeing you....
vaberella
(24,634 posts)Thanks for the appreciation and it is nice seeing you too. 
yardwork
(61,700 posts)See my posts downthread for explanation.
RepublicansRZombies
(982 posts)Lies travel halfway around the world before the truth gets it's shoes on....so it is very difficult for more quiet honest types to disprove this absurd negative.
Takes years and years and they still won't admit they are wrong...kinda like the Republican party nationally....
Carolina
(6,960 posts)while there are always two sides to every story and we are hearing the Dad's only, the bottom line is there are many entitled young/younger people out there.
My parents worked hard and provided every opportunity for us; yet in our family, we have fuck-ups among us still with hands out and still blaming everyone else. Two friends have given their children stable homes and paid for educations. What do they have to show for it: zip, nada, zilch. Two still dependent ne'er do wells.
As a parent of a successful son (fortunately), I count my blessings, but feel their pain.
lapislzi
(5,762 posts)How does he suppose his children became that way? Did they grow to adulthood in a vacuum? Surely with such a strong, positive role model, they should be pillars of their community.
Yeesh, I abhor sanctimony.
pnwmom
(108,990 posts)a narcissist who doesn't have enough to brag about to his friends -- they're not doctors, lawyers, or vulture capitalists.
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)about his friends talking about their kids, I immediately realized that was his problem. What a hateful creature to say things like that to his own children.
Barack_America
(28,876 posts)These are all adults we're talking about. He's not happy with the relationship he has with his kids. He understands that he cannot control their behavior, but sets up boundaries for how much it can affect the lives of he and his wife.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)If his children are such failures, he should spend some time with a mirror figuring out how they turned out that way.
Not saying it's 100% his fault, but he had a very large hand in forming these adults.
sibelian
(7,804 posts)
SoCalDem
(103,856 posts)Love them
Take care of them
Teach them to do for themselves
Launch them into their own lives
Stay OUT of their love-lives
Stay OUT of their finances
Cheerfully accept their mates
BUTT OUT
and
do not EXPECT them to be anything but whomever/whatever they want to be.
dballance
(5,756 posts)I have no problem with the military but since he's retired Navy I just wonder if he had much opportunity to be around to raise his kids and help teach them the values and way to live life that would make him proud. Or, was he out at sea for most of their formative years?
It makes a difference to me which way things were in whether or not he has much of a leg to stand on when it comes to criticizing them.
Again I'm not criticizing him for being in the Navy or even if he was out at sea for most of their formative years. Just wondering about the situation.
WI_DEM
(33,497 posts)down any longer.
pnwmom
(108,990 posts)Narcissists -- the kind of person who would complain that his employed, self-supporting, drug-free children don't give him enough to brag about -- are hell to live with.
midnight
(26,624 posts)What about the parents who have to travel for a few days, or more for work every month or so.. It's not just the military...
Lightbulb_on
(315 posts)We don't just step out for 60 hours or a few days.
It stretches into months or even years...
midnight
(26,624 posts)dballance
(5,756 posts)
TexasBushwhacker
(20,210 posts)He may find he's shipped off to an old folks home and never has visitors. The economy is tough. He should be glad his kids are employed and not asking him for money.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Gee, you think maybe some people are sugar coating the goings on of their own families in order to avoid embarrassment?
Habibi
(3,598 posts)and are rubbing it in. 
RepublicansRZombies
(982 posts)not miserable people looking for someone to blame for their own unhappiness
Worried senior
(1,328 posts)he doesn't sound unreasonable to me and if they aren't doing what they should be I can see how that would upset him. Especially if they are dumping on their mother, who knows what issues the parents may be dealing with. Doesn't look like the kids are offering them any moral support.
obamanut2012
(26,111 posts)They all have jobs and are self-supporting. Adults have NO duty to live the life their parents want them to. It is imo pathetic if an adult did so.
pnwmom
(108,990 posts)and she's translating a book that's about to be published and has a small business.
The other two are both employed and have never relied on financial assistance either from him or the government.
Are you sure he doesn't sound unreasonable?
I think, as a narcissist, he's probably irked that he doesn't have his wife's full and undivided concern -- she loves the kids, too.
Raine
(30,540 posts)to why your kids are disappointments are closer than you think.
Fresh_Start
(11,330 posts)and apparently he wasn't any great shakes as a parent.
Really if all of your children are having problems, you need to look for the common denominator...which is their parents.
Yes, one child can struggle because of things outside of your influence, but all 3 of them.
Look in a mirror old man.
The daughter who is excusing her old man says...
She admitted spending “many years underperforming”, partly because her father’s uncompromising stance left her with little self-confidence.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)enough will do that. kids need the experience of succeeding & meeting expectations as well as the experience of missing the mark and missing being OK, a platform for reanalyzing how to do better rather than hearing what a fuck-up one is.
Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)Decades of destructive, fear-based reinforcement definitely leave their mark, years of reparative therapy notwithstanding.
RepublicansRZombies
(982 posts)I can only hope to not pass it on to my children.
smokey nj
(43,853 posts)communicate with them regularly. He's pissed off that they don't have high wage jobs about which he can brag to his friends.
Here's a link to another article about him:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/lifestyle/9699955/I-havent-done-well-as-a-father-have-I-Softer-side-of-the-man-who-fired-off-Crews-missile.html
Here's an excerpt:
"I remember once my mother asking me what Emily — who was at Exeter University at the time — was up to. I said I hadn’t a clue. ‘What a way to run a family!’ she said.” His late mother’s words have haunted him since.
He's an ass.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)approve of this letter and are on his side. I suppose that just highlights our cultural differences when it comes to family and child rearing. I find his attitude repulsive.
smokey nj
(43,853 posts)Surya Gayatri
(15,445 posts)there is a "beam" in his own eye rather than a "mote" in theirs.
His judgmental, condescending attitude must be really hard to swallow in a more intimate setting.
yardwork
(61,700 posts)We are given no evidence that his grown children are doing anything wrong. The oldest daughter sounds like she has a very successful life. All we have is the man's statement that he is disappointed in them. For what? No evidence that they have caused him any trouble.
I find it very troubling.
WI_DEM
(33,497 posts)Liberal_in_LA
(44,397 posts)
yewberry
(6,530 posts)datasuspect
(26,591 posts)AlexSatan
(535 posts)Unless they are magic floating apples...
datasuspect
(26,591 posts)things are more obedient where i come from.
ElboRuum
(4,717 posts)You have apples too? Gotta be some ridiculous coincidence.
libdem4life
(13,877 posts)we needed to make it in the world. And we all did...in our own, individual ways. Same as to the second generation...not necessarily from financial positions, but from kicking/waving them out of the nest and being mature parents enough to accept an "advisory when asked" capacity.
My gut level on this tortured man is/they that he never learned to let go...to trust his/their parenting...and tried to make up for it later, which is absolutely impossible...and bitterly unsuccessful.
FieryLocks
(110 posts)Mr Crews...it's genetic?
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)but on the other hand, we have no picture of the children. They could truly be struggling, or they could be spoiled brats. There is no way of knowing.
The father is using shaming, however. It doesn't usually work to get the desired behavior. And children do not "owe" their parents good marriages, grandchildren, or success in careers. Children do not "owe" their parents anything. If the parents earn their children's love and respect, that is all they can really expect.
Family counseling would have been a better approach. But he's just pompously writing them off. It's a no-win for the kids--if they shape up in his eyes they feel like children again, but if they don't, then he's done with them.
If this were my Dad, I'd write him off. And maybe that WOULD be better for all. He has never accorded them adulthood because they don't meet his definitions. If they don't want to be treated like children, they need to put some distance between themselves & their parents.
Also you have to factor in the "litter" aspect--if one of the kids does improve and is rewarded, then the others are resentful.
This is a seriously dysfunctional situation. Family counseling.
pnwmom
(108,990 posts)They just haven't been giving him enough to brag about. You're right -- he's practically the definition of a narcissist.
abelenkpe
(9,933 posts)could get a job with reasonable job security, benefits and pension, buy a home, get married, raise a family and retire. His kids generation requires two working parents who even then don't have a secure work situation. Instead of looking down on his kids he should be asking himself what has changed that has made it so difficult for every one of his kids to even come close to achieving the same standard of living. His actions will only alienate his children further and he'll spend no time with the grandchildren he claims to be so concerned about.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)Also there is so much competition now--the population of the world was 2.5 billion in the 50's. It's going to hit 7 billion this year.
pnwmom
(108,990 posts)Dark n Stormy Knight
(9,771 posts)high-fiving this jerk, but especially appreciated you spelling it out so clearly.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)--when I read that, I can give these kids the benefit of the doubt.
I submit that the narcissist father really wants to keep them as kids, pushed and pulled by his emotions.
Dr. Strange
(25,922 posts)Any chance this was written by Lee Mercer, Jr?
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)Just FYI to those who think they were sponging off the parents:
<snip>
Mr Crews says that his daughter Emily, a business interpreter, son Fred, who works in a taxi office, and another daughter who works in a sailing shop, have not lived up to their potential.
He said he was frustrated that they should have fulfilled their capabilities.
'It upsets me that they occupy basic-wage positions instead of working at the upper periphery of their capability.
'I would be mortified if they were to need 0 either immediately or in later life - state benefits.
'I long to see them take responsibility for their actions.'
<snip>
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2237665/Nick-Crews-Id-mortified-needed-benefits-Father-frustrated-email-adult-children-went-viral-says-regret-voicing-views.html
Do you still get to pick your parents nursing home in the UK?
cali
(114,904 posts)He sees his children as extensions of himself.
pnwmom
(108,990 posts)RepublicansRZombies
(982 posts)nt
midnight
(26,624 posts)disappointment that seems to have been having a burdensome feel for the family...
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)There is also something to be said for shutting the fuck up, when doing so will cause more harm than good.
The trick is knowing the difference.
Given that (at least) one of the kids saw fit to provide it to the Telegraph, I both suspect he's actually underestimated the the scope of the problem and so should have kept his mouth shut.
pnwmom
(108,990 posts)She's also about to publish a translation of a book (as part of her translating business) and asked his permission to publish the letter. (Does she sound like a failure to you? Neither of his other children are failures, either, except in his own warped mind.)
Oddly enough -- but maybe not, for a complete narcissist -- he gave her permission to publish the letter.
lunatica
(53,410 posts)Before I decide whether this person has a real case for being so disappointed. Maybe he was a horrendous father himself.
smokey nj
(43,853 posts)Here's a link to another article about the guy:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/lifestyle/9699955/I-havent-done-well-as-a-father-have-I-Softer-side-of-the-man-who-fired-off-Crews-missile.html
And an excerpt:
"I would be mortified if they were to need — either immediately or in later life — state benefits. They should contribute to, not draw from, the pot. I long to see them take responsibility for their actions.”
lunatica
(53,410 posts)That tells me he's a very bad parent.
smokey nj
(43,853 posts)Liberal_in_LA
(44,397 posts)lunatica
(53,410 posts)That the kid wants everyone to know he's a bad seed? Or that the kid wants to show what the father is?
I'd say it was the latter, because I doubt the kid wants the world to see what a loser he is.
libdem4life
(13,877 posts)much all that requires is doing what you're told.
Canuckistanian
(42,290 posts)When one's children fail to produce a good return on investment. Perhaps it can be written off as bad debt on the tax return.
CaliforniaPeggy
(149,681 posts)Children do not come into the world to come up to their parents' expectations.
You need to do the best you can to raise them to be good productive HAPPY citizens, and that's all. The rest is up to them.
His disappointment is waaaaaaay displaced.
ElboRuum
(4,717 posts)There is a difference between providing for children and raising them to be adults. I'm going to guess that he did the former but not so much the latter. It is a common adage that upon the children you can see the reflection of the parents.
If I were him, I'd be quite disappointed. Disappointed in my complete failure as a parent. I'm not surprised he's receiving support for this, there are plenty of shitty parents out there going through the same thing who want to be let off the hook for their own failures, and I'm sure this would make them smile.
Gin
(7,212 posts)Overrated!
MotherPetrie
(3,145 posts)
riverwalker
(8,694 posts)I have seen it, we all have. I once read "The Myth of the Family" by James Hillman, and he wrote about the modern tendancy in our culture to blame our parents for everything.
Can you imagine any adult a hundred years ago, blaming all his failures on his parents? He would be laughed out of the village.
TwilightGardener
(46,416 posts)parents have felt the same way at least a couple times about me.
Kali
(55,019 posts)
nolabear
(41,991 posts)
MrScorpio
(73,631 posts)The thing about unconditional love is that it has absolutely NO conditions.
Apparently, the father's conditions for any expressions of love to his children entails a performance level from them that is capable of making him look good to his friends and cronies.
I would hazard a guess that as a deployed Naval officer during much of their formative years, Pops outsourced the raising of his kids to others. Perhaps he should ask for a refund from those English boarding schools that he sent them to.
This letter is a perfect example of people who are suffering from a case of English Gentry Problems.
It's a little less catastrophic when dealing with family issues down here in the lower classes, where the lack of unreasonable expectations prevent us from operating at such a high level of crisis management.
burnsei sensei
(1,820 posts)To love unconditionally is to toe a line-- it is a discipline in itself.
Beware of every unrealistic expectation!
Such a family and even institutional dynamic is usually repeated several times and in several areas of life; and it always leads to long-term distress.
geckosfeet
(9,644 posts)Don't have em then treat them like disposable diapers.
hunter
(38,325 posts)It probably won't get better until he forgets who all the players are.
DonCoquixote
(13,616 posts)In short, he is another conservative idiot, the sort that come here to Florida on a fortnight, with the pension they got from their job, and talk about the modern day as if we are all scum.
“We would be on our own at the beach, with no lifeguard, no grown-up to say, ‘Watch out for this undertow’. The great breakers would come towards you, then you would duck and the breaker would go over you and you would bob up again.”He sounds nostalgic for those Swallows and Amazons days. Nowadays, you see those wetsuit-clad surfers riding the waves: nothing spontaneous there. We would go off fishing on our own, and climb the cliffs. And do you think there were any signs there saying ‘Take care’? It was idyllic. And we were free.”
Another one who thinks freedom is associated with lack of government guidance or services. SIGH
And of course, this gem:
He retired in 1998 after 35 years in the Navy and his last command was a ballistic missile-firing nuclear submarine.
So in other words, Mr. Crews, you had a government job, based on cold war fear, picked as one of the people who would nuke Moscow if you were given the order.
NOw, seabeyond, do not get me wrong, I know how there can be parasitic trash in families. I have seen people mooch off my parents ruthlessly, and then attack them. But this man is a fool, and fools like him deserve to die alone.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)Thank you for your excelllent post.
Bettie
(16,120 posts)If one kid is a screw up, then it is probably that kid.
If all of them are, in the parents' eyes, failures, then the parents either have extremely skewed expectations/perceptions or they should look to their own parenting skills for the failure.
pnwmom
(108,990 posts)that's about to be published, and has a small business.
The father is the problem.
0rganism
(23,967 posts)
Next up: the Feats of Strength
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)although their words are much less harsh and more bewildered. In their case, I think, it is simply a matter of being in a bubble and not realizing how the world has changed for younger people.
They bought their house when it was still possible to raise a family on one income. They paid around 30,000, and it is now valued at around 500,000 in a major metropolitan area. He worked in the same place his entire life, earning regular promotions and a decent salary, and he retired with a generous pension. They sent their children to college. They have adequate money in the bank for retirement and live a very comfortable, though not luxurious, lifestyle.
Their kids were all good students, got into good colleges (although not elite), earned degrees, and waited to have families until they got their first jobs. But they are underwater with graduate school loans. They have repeatedly had jobs disappear beneath them, or salaries downgraded, or benefits cut. Their purchased homes lost rather than gaining value. They struggle to afford medical insurance. In short, they deal with everything the plutocrats have done to this country.
This couple is in their 70's, and they honestly don't understand how things have changed for their children; they cannot fathom that hard workers should struggle so much, unless they are doing something wrong. They were brought up in our culture that associates material struggling with personal failure. They just don't understand.
pnwmom
(108,990 posts)and has set up a small business and is translating a book which is about to be published.
But apparently she hasn't given him enough to brag about.
He's a textbook narcissist.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/9686721/Daughter-defends-former-submarine-captain-who-told-children-he-was-bitterly-disappointed-in-them.html
Mrs Crews-Montes now lives in Brittany with her second husband, a French surgeon, and three children aged 18 months, two, and 12.
She said her father’s email did not upset her because she had already begun to turn her life around when she received it in February. She had set up a business and had started translating a French self-help book into English.
“I had already done what he told me to do. I had already given myself a kick up the backside.” She admitted spending “many years underperforming”, partly because her father’s uncompromising stance left her with little self-confidence.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)I was rather advanced as a child and therfore always expexted to be absolute perferct and the best at everything. When I got perfect straight A's and blue ribbons for winning sporting events it was considered by my parents to be "living up to my potential". There was never any praise, only criticism and abuse for falling short of the ideal.
Needless to say, this way of parenting did not leave me as a very motivated person. I do fine, my siblings are much more successful but they did not suffer the physical and mental abuse that I did. I have no confidence. I was never encourged or praised, only threatend. Eventually, I just stopped giving a shit.
pnwmom
(108,990 posts)There is a really good book for children of narcissists, called "Children of the Self Absorbed."
It helped me personally, but I was especially glad I read it when I did because I had children. Otherwise, I might have passed to them on some unexamined beliefs that I'd absorbed from my narcissistic parent.
Another good book, especially if you have kids, is "Punished by Rewards," by Alfie Kohn. It talks about why grades an blue ribbons take away from motivation in the long run.
DonCoquixote
(13,616 posts)I have had college degrees, but I never lived up to my potential. Of course, I had some issues that were undiagnosed at the time, but people could never figure what was wrong with me, especially people like my brother that bragged about flunking out of college, and still making an ungodly salary, how he would fire people like me all the time. I had medical bills that almost lost me parents their house, student loans, and an amount of money made so low that when my mother took me to social security to apply for disability, they showed all the money I ever made in my life, and my Mother genuinely thought it was a misprint.
It helps that I come from a family where people make twice what my father did, and spend four time that, yet some of them still found ways to trick my father into doing things for them. And of course, I had all the "faith and the peter Pan advice" thrown at me, by people who thought I was lazy, or that I needed to go back to church. I will tell you straight out, the only reason I did not cut my fucking wrists is because I used to work in the funeral industry, and I did not want my family taken advantage of as they wasted money on my burial! If killing myself would have given my mother and father the money they deserved, I would have! That is because I felt guilt about how I had failed them!
However, my parents were NOT like this Brit asshole. They knew I was trying, and they knew I was not given a fair shake. Turns out I was diagnosed with a bunch of issues that explained a lot, stuff that was not diagnosed when younger. But what mattered is that my parents were not embarrassed about me, they did not feel disappointed in me..
THEY LOVED ME!
And that,my friends, is what being a parent is all about, and I humbly say, if you cannot do that, do not have kids.. furthermore, before you call someone a LOSER, keep in mind, that person might be under a burden that would crack you into so many shards if it was placed on your shoulders! I realize that for the love of of my family, I might be one of those crazy people under the bridge, and for all I know, I may still be there, but I know that I am loved for what I am, and not some narcissistic wish fulfillment!
Allright,sorry i had to get real there, we will now return to your regularly scheduled Don Quixote, whose main offense is lambasting self righteous hypocritical creeps of all stripes, but being polite when doing so.
smokey nj
(43,853 posts)Some would consider me a failure, I don't.
pnwmom
(108,990 posts)And I think he wrote this letter because he's jealous -- his wife was paying more attention to the kids than to him.
And no wonder!
Kaleva
(36,328 posts)"Today, Emily, now working as a translator in France, still finds her father’s email hard to stomach, but admits: ‘A lot of what Dad said is true and with time I’ve become more sympathetic towards his point of view.
‘What he said is what a lot of people of his age, gender and class would probably like to say to their children but would never dare to.
‘My parents have been married for 42 years and are of a generation who gritted their teeth and just got on with it when times were tough. I can see how exasperated they must be,’ says Emily who has two children — Margot, two-and-a-half, and Antoine, 18 months — with Pierre, and Jemima, 12, from her previous four-year marriage. ‘We were probably all phoning home with our various troubles or unwelcome news and they must have felt overwhelmed and wished we would just grow up."
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2237665/Nick-Crews-Id-mortified-needed-benefits-Father-frustrated-email-adult-children-went-viral-says-regret-voicing-views.html
pnwmom
(108,990 posts)Even today, most parents wouldn't write scathing letters about under-achievement to daughters like her: she has three kids, is married to a surgeon, is translating a book and has a small business.
She's trying to justify his behavior now, as many children of emotionally abusive parents do.
She hasn't wrapped her mind around his complete self-absorption. (As evidenced by his complaint that his children haven't given him enough to brag about.) It's hard for the children of a narcissist to accept that their parent will never be capable of empathy or genuine love -- that any affection they receive is entirely dependent on how good they make their parent look.
Kaleva
(36,328 posts)It may be justified or maybe not but I'm reminded of the numerous threads here about members posting about how they let their relatives, even parents, have it during the holiday season meals and it's usually about politics. Some here said they don't even communicate anymore with siblings, parents or other close relatives.
My own father talked to me like I was still a teenager living at home well into my 40's and running my own business. While annoying, I just accepted it as that's the way he was.
pnwmom
(108,990 posts)The real damage is when the narcissistic parents abuse their children as they are growing up.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)of criticizing your children & being disappointed in them? it's counterproductive, imo. shame can sometimes be a kick in the pants, but just as often it can be a complete demotivator.
people don't shape up until they themselves want to. i dont' think regular shaming furthers that process of self-understanding because one gets too wrapped up in 1) defending onself and 2) self-loathing & insecurity.
you need some basic sense of security & confidence before you're able to take risks & be able to keep going with a good spirit in spite of failure.
RepublicansRZombies
(982 posts)most likely!
pnwmom
(108,990 posts)Note that he's also against people getting state benefits in retirement. Ironic, since he was a serviceman.
“It upsets me that they occupy basic-wage positions instead of working at the upper periphery of their capability.
"I would be mortified if they were to need — either immediately or in later life — state benefits. They should contribute to, not draw from, the pot. I long to see them take responsibility for their actions.”
He blames contemporary culture, which proffers us “a cancerous cocktail where on the one hand everyone is supposed to be free to do whatever they wish, but on the other we all expect protection from the consequences of our actions”.
Lex
(34,108 posts)them of. Not surprised.
Egalitarian Thug
(12,448 posts)There are stereotypes for a reason, and this message nearly screams of what kind this man is.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts) Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)of what had really happened in his grown children's lives...not HIS version of those lives, but the reality of them.
Do we really know for sure that they'd done THAT badly in life overall? Or that, if they'd had setbacks and failures, that those events were solely of their own doing?
The photo that accompanied the article does make the man look like he'd have been terrifying when his kids were little. There's an arrogance in the way he holds himself, and a hardness in the eyes even as he smiles.
sibelian
(7,804 posts)But, to be fair, he would have a point.
vaberella
(24,634 posts)Full explanation in post # 135.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1910485
undeterred
(34,658 posts)Time for the airing of grievances! Bring out the pole!
Paladin
(28,271 posts)That phrase tells me all I need to know about this guy. Blow it out your ass, Pops. If you're disappointed in your kids, try looking in a mirror. I sense Mum feels the same, but she doesn't dare tell you....
Darth_Kitten
(14,192 posts)Google this story and you'll see what I mean. 
Yes, I'm mean.
yardwork
(61,700 posts)I read the father's letter. Then I went looking for facts. Are his children, in fact, unemployed parasites on their parents, both financially and emotionally? I found that the oldest daughter of the family is in fact employed, married to a surgeon, and raising three children, two of whom are babies. I found that the other two children are also reportedly employed.
My father tended to talk about my sister and me this way. When we got good grades in school, he misrepresented them as "ok but not great" to his neighbors and colleagues. Our behavior - boringly exemplary in terms of never being in trouble with the law or any authorities (since we were so frightened to do anything wrong, but I'll get to that in a minute) - was described with sighs, rolling eyes, "you knows," and grimaces to his relatives and colleagues, who thought that they were commiserating with somebody whose children, like theirs, were using drugs, failing in school, and getting arrested for drunk and disorderly. In fact, my sister and I were cleaning house, driving our mother around, cooking, and generally acting like scared rabbits trying to please a pair of unpleasable, narcissistic parents. Our thanks was more criticism of us to the outside world.
I didn't realize how abusive this behavior was until I went away to college and discovered that not everybody treated their roommates to screaming meltdowns and constant criticism. Also, my friends started to notice that something was odd about my parents when they would stop by for a visit and hear my father say that he was "sick of me" and "glad that I was out of the house." Their parents didn't talk that way about them.
One more thing - my parents absolutely refused, from the time my sister and I were little, to help us achieve anything. Science fair at school? We can't drive you to do it - you're on your own. Want to be part of a club or editor of your school yearbook? No, we don't have the time. Need a new winter coat because the old one is falling apart and you've outgrown your winter boots? Sigh. We don't have the money! (This while thousands were being spent each month on beer, liquor, cigarettes, new furniture for the house, vacations for them, etc.) I could go on and on but I'm getting a headache.
My point is - when somebody says something like this about their children, inquire about the facts.
smokey nj
(43,853 posts)inquiring about the other side of the story.
yardwork
(61,700 posts)With only the father's word, we don't know if this is a case of truly horrible children and a desperate father who has finally given up, or a case of a narcissistic, abusive father who is unfairly criticizing his children.
People who didn't know me or my sister would have believed my father's representation of us. People who did know us would call me up and say that they were concerned about me, because my father was saying strange things that they knew were false. That's how I found out what he was saying about me to others. How many others never bothered to check? And in how many ways did that hurt me, and my sister, in achieving the success that the narcissistic parent craves? Good parents help their children - they introduce them to people who can become mentors in school and in their careers. They encourage their children and speak well of them to others when it is deserved. In this way, good parents help their children make their way in the world and learn to support themselves.
I went a long way away to college and never returned home. I got married young and distanced myself from my parents. I'm successful in my career and, after decades of therapy, a generally happy well-adjusted person. My sister went to college in our hometown and stayed in close orbit with my parents, constantly seeking their approval. She has problems.... Naturally, my parents blame her for entirely for her problems. No whisper of blame attends to them, the parents!
smokey nj
(43,853 posts)My parents treated my oldest sister (she's 20 years older than I am and there are 6 of us) like shit when she got pregnant out of wedlock in the early 70s. I was an infant at the time, so I didn't learn this chapter of our family history until I was an adult. They kicked her out and sent her to a home for unwed mothers because she would be a bad influence on her younger sisters. When they would go for visits and take her out for a ride, they made her duck down so she couldn't be seen. My sister's baby died shortly after birth. My mother eagerly assumed the role of the grieving grandma.
The irony here is a few years earlier, my father's youngest sister, who lived with us, got knocked up out of wedlock, didn't tell anyone she was pregnant until she went into labor, and didn't let anyone know she was keeping the baby until the day she was released from the hospital. Not only was she not thrown out, my parents helped support her daughter. Nothing was ever said to her about being a bad influence on her nieces.
To this day, I'm amazed my sister ever spoke to my parents again.
yardwork
(61,700 posts) smokey nj
(43,853 posts)can't tell them how much they hurt her. I feel bad for her because she's disabled and homebound and spends a lot of time dwelling on the past. I do the only thing I can do, which is listen when she needs to talk about it.
rainin
(3,011 posts)when I read your post was that your aunt's baby might have been your father's. That's why he treated it differently. Yikes. Just a thought. BTW, your story is compelling and heartfelt. Sorry you had to go through that.
smokey nj
(43,853 posts)Last edited Sat Dec 1, 2012, 01:30 PM - Edit history (1)
there isn't any. We've discussed this at length and have come to the conclusion that my aunt's pregnancy didn't reflect on my parents parenting skills, where my sister's did. I didn't go through anything, really. I was just baby when all this went on and didn't find out about it until much later.
ETA: Kicking my sister out was more of my mom's thing than my dad's. Mom was a big proponent of tough love (though she mellowed as she got older) and came from a large, judgemental, Irish Catholic family that was steeped in unacknowledged dysfunction. She was pissed that my sister made her look bad in front of her family. On the contrary, relatives on my father's side weren't all that concerned with appearances. They knew they were fucked up and owned their dysfunction.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)It's so damaging and harmful. So many narcissicistic parents think their children owe them. My step-mother who physically and mentally abused me daily felt that I OWED her an apology. I actually did it and she said "It's about time". Why the F**K was I apologizing to a woman who had beaten the shit out of me every day of my young life until I left for college.
She actually thought that she was the victim. That is the very definition of narcissicm.
yardwork
(61,700 posts)Thank you for posting about this.
treestar
(82,383 posts)She may be encouraging complaints - and getting involved in drama because she likes it.
At any rate, this guy does not love his children - he wanted bragging rights from them and that's it.
And we don't know their side. It is harder to have a successful marriage these days, in fact, divorce is the norm. So maybe he's asking too much on that score.
pnwmom
(108,990 posts)None of them have ever relied on financial assistance from the father or the state. One of them works for a taxi service. I don't remember the second's job, but she or he has one, and is self-supporting. The oldest daughter isn't self-supporting, probably -- but she has a surgeon husband. For most of us parents, that would be considered adequate! She also has two toddlers and a twelve year old, has a small translating business, and has been translating a book that's about to be published.
She is one of the children who has been divorced; the toddlers are with her second husband.
You're right that the mother might be encouraging complaints -- sometimes people with personality disorders marry each other, and this father is a textbook narcissist. But it could just be that the father is jealous of the attention the mother pays to the children. That would be in keeping with his narcissism.
treestar
(82,383 posts)He is complaining on behalf of their mother, it seems. Did she ask for his officiousness? Maybe he just doesn't like the time she devotes to listening to them.
pnwmom
(108,990 posts)and the father admits having little to do with them after that point.
He probably likes having the mother all to himself; and his likes his children, as long as they give him enough to brag about.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)rainin
(3,011 posts)Regardless if his anger is justified, there is no love in this letter. There are many ways you can speak to your children without saying things like "never-ending bad dream of our children's underachievement and domestic ineptitudes". A loving parent would never say this. This father's words were meant to cut. He should apologize.
DonCoquixote
(13,616 posts)which involve people who are genuinely assholes. However,there is a bit of irony here, that Commander Crews seems to be the willfully clueless, entitled male asshole that groups like the Feminists had to band together to deal with.
No offense Seabeyond, you know I respect you, but this Crews fellow,in addition to being arrogrant, does show himself to be quite the arrogant patriarch.
RepublicansRZombies
(982 posts)They are narcissists. They have never seen anything from anyone else's point of view, and they are just not capable.
It's all me me me. This is why we need to ignore this mentality nationally and do what is right for the country. It appears this type of immoral selfish attitude lends well to making lots of money and taking over power nationally.
I am my parents biggest disappointment. I graduated from college. I got married, had two kids, have been taking care of myself and never asked for anything. But they decided they hate my husband, hate me, took my inheritance when my grandma died but gave it to my brothers. They made up stories to the relatives to the point people were talking to me like I needed to escape an abusive relationship and I had no idea what they were talking about. Their biggest disappointment now is that I have not failed like they hoped. Had I failed, they would be the last people I would turn to for help. These parents are lucky their kids still trust them enough to turn to them for help, not anymore I am sure.
When I trace back to when I started being treated differently, it was when they figured out I was a liberal even before I did.
I imagine this has been going on across the board, greedy mean Republican parents withholding from liberals because they are assholes. Family Values my ass!
Multiply that by the years of accumulating wealth and being surrounded by yes men because they drove everyone else away....now we have a half a nation of narcissistic sociopaths, choosing leaders who support their world view of more more more for me me me.
They can't see anything from anyone else's perspective because they have never had to. Just like in my family, I was chased off, and the yes men continue to enable the sociopaths.
Brickbat
(19,339 posts)RepublicansRZombies
(982 posts)n/t
Brickbat
(19,339 posts)WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)pnwmom
(108,990 posts)as she was growing up.
This woman has a small translating business, is about to publish a book she translated, and has two toddlers, a twelve year old, and a surgeon husband. She says she had already turned her life around when he sent her the letter. So why did he send it to her? Because he's a textbook narcissist. And she's the unfortunate adult child who's most wrapped up in his web, because she comes closest to meeting his expectations.
RepublicansRZombies
(982 posts)Little upset about losing the election?
Unable to accept being wrong?
Lashing out at the children instead?
(I know he is in the UK- but they are united in their idiocy and this has been a blow to their philosophy)
pnwmom
(108,990 posts)from the government in retirement, and says he's worried that his children might need to.
yardwork
(61,700 posts)even though he is a surgeon.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Mad that Cameron doesn't have a majority
Resentful that he didn't get more wars to send men off to die in.
Bitter that Ulster, Scotland and even Wales are slowly easing their way out of the UK.
Unable to accept that the old, Imperial world he grew up worshiping no longer exists.
And taking all THAT out on the kids.
La Lioness Priyanka
(53,866 posts)if all three of my children are failures then i must have failed at parenting. one out of three, maybe it's their doing entirely but if its all three, then i must have contributed
pnwmom
(108,990 posts)La Lioness Priyanka
(53,866 posts)
oh reiki ur so fine
(12 posts)La Lioness Priyanka
(53,866 posts)avebury
(10,952 posts)the problem in the first place. Many parents are former latch key kids who are determined that they will give their kids everything that they feel they never got.
The office I work in deals with hiring young people who are in college or just out of college. It is amazing how many of them are clueless about the actual process of what it takes to become independent adults. We are currently interviewing for one position and the father of one of the applicants actually called to see if the position had been filled. The applicant is the one who should have called not Dad. We have had Moms or Dads calling us to find out what jobs might be available for their son or daughter. What is the matter of teaching our children to exhibit some initiative? There have been candidates who have shown up to an interview with Mom and Dad. Actions like that are the kiss of death for a job applicant. I heard more than one manager say that they would never higher someone with parental issues like that. There are some young people that just plain wear on you.
I told my boss the other day that high schools and colleges really need to have mandatory workshops to teach children the process of job hunting, interviewing techniques, resume writing, business etiquette, and so on.
Brainstormy
(2,381 posts)That's all I've got to say.
snooper2
(30,151 posts)
People will argue about anything around here
Enrique
(27,461 posts)I thought, why did this go viral? And the people taking sides, that seems crazy to me.
OnionPatch
(6,169 posts)You can't really know the whole story from this letter.
Politicub
(12,165 posts)that they don't live at home. Can you imagine?
He was saying his wife was upset -- which could be considered as him assigning blame to his wife in addition to how he feels about his children. Maybe he feels like he's weighted down by her fragile ego, too. Excuse me as I shed some tears.
I think this kind of thing - being upset when your kids grow up and don't live up to your expectations -- plagues a lot of families. It often just doesn't play out in such a dramatic fashion.
Quantess
(27,630 posts)It is spelled WHINING.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)So don't whinge about it anymore.
Quantess
(27,630 posts)I have seen it spelled "whingeing" or "whinging" more and more frequently over the past year or so. If someone wants to show me proof that those are accepted alternate spellings of "whining", I will eat my words.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Look at the websites for any British newspaper or the BBC, you'll see "whinging" or "whingeing" there all the time.
In the meantime, though, here's a fairly authoritative source on the matter:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/whinge
Quantess
(27,630 posts)"Whinging" is a real word that means the same thing as "whining", but with the different spelling also accompanies a different pronunciation. It is pronounced the way it looks!
Someone upthread posted a different link that says the same thing. Hopefully, that settles it.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)would ask him for advice? I wouldn't if I was his son.
He probably spent their childhoods treating them like they were midshipmen who'd swabbed the poop deck badly-that is, when he talked to them at all.
And the man takes no notice of the fact that Britain, like the rest of the world, has been in some sort of recession or other for most of the adult lives of his offspring...the best-organized and most motivated of their generation would have found earning a decent living tough sledding at best.
Sanctimonious, judgmental dick(thanks to Dirk Gently for that perfectly descriptive phrase, btw).
