All this talk about rape is making me...

[Whiskeytide]

… think about our society’s take on rape and sex generally. And I have some thoughts to share and questions to pose. I'm a man who came of age in the mid seventies, for what that's worth.

Rape is rape. Right? And sex with anyone who has not consented is rape. Always. Or is it? My wife and I, in our younger years when we drank more often to excess, had sex on more occasions than I can count when neither of us were in any condition to voluntarily consent. It never occurred to us that we were raping each other. Now, you can say there was implied consent, but if we start recognizing the defense of implied consent, where will that take us? Would it be enough that I thought she consented? If she had called the cops the next morning, would I have been charged?

Let’s get a little more into left field. What if a man visits a prostitute, and pays her for sex. Unknown to him, she is being forced to trick by her employer, and it is against her will. Is the John guilty of more than solicitation? Has he raped her? Has the pimp raped her?

I have seen animals have sex, live and on the screen. It does not appear to be, at least most of the time, consensual. Especially tigers – holy shit, that looks like rape. But it is instinctual, right, to preserve and extend the species? Homo Sapiens have evolved from animals. We are animals. We have some of those same instinctive impulses, as I seem to recall from human sexuality and sociology courses years ago. I read “The Naked Ape”. True, we have evolved the ability to reason and have become civilized, but does that completely suppress the physical instinct to have sex with any female we can have sex with? Completely?

And, if there is an ongoing battle between our reason and our instinctive urges, what do alcohol and/or drugs do to influence the outcome of that internal conflict? How many of us have done things while drunk that we never would have done sober? Should “I was drunk” be a defense? Should it be taken into consideration at all?

Our society is inundated with violent, forceful, aggressive sex every day, and in every conceivable form. Movies, video games, TV. Watch the Lifetime channel on a Saturday afternoon if you doubt me. How about humor - Headley Lamar: “You said ‘rape’ twice”. Thug: “I like rape”. Headley: “Ooooh. Kinky”. I laughed my ass off at that one, but now I can see an argument that it was promoting rape. I hate to say it, but rape is everywhere these days.

Is it any wonder that our 14, 15, 16 and 17 year old children are confused as Hell about where the damn line is? Especially when their bodies have been ravaged by hormones? We all understand the scenario in a post I saw earlier in one of the threads that if "..she takes off her own clothes, helps you take off yours, and then says 'let’s do it now' ”, we have consent. And we all understand that forcing yourself on someone who is resisting in any way is rape.

So, what is resisting?
“No”.
“I said NO!”
“I’m not in the mood”
“We shouldn't do this”
“I want to, but we can’t”
“You’ll tell your friends”
“Not if you don’t have a condom”
“Don’t. Stop. No. Stop. Don’t. No. Stop. Don’t. Stop. Don’t stop. Don’t stop, oh God, don’t stop”.

Guys ARE taught - by peers, media, whatever – that turning a “NO” into a “YES” is the art of seduction. So where does the seduction end and the rape begin? If you persuade her to consent, is that okay? What if you lie to her to get the consent? “I’ll love you to the end of time”? “The doctor says when they turn blue, it can do irreparable damage and I might not be able to have children later”. What if you just wear her down and she gives in out of exhaustion?

Is the line different if you’re the father of the teenage girl versus the father of the teenage boy? Why?

Some women do like to “be taken”. I have known a few, and one of them told me once that it made her feel less guilty about liking the sex. I remember thinking about how messed up that was, but I blamed the double standards of our society, not myself for participating in the “sex game” she openly desired. I suppose if you had been watching us from the closet, you may well have thought I was forcing myself on her. But I didn't rape her. At least I don’t believe I did.

I also understand that some women, as screwed up as it sounds, do have stranger-rape fantasies. Haven’t known any of those. But I guess it takes all kinds.

Is there a difference, in any way or to any degree, between (a) the stranger who jumps out of an alley or crawls in through a locked window and forces himself on a woman sexually, and (b) the date who accompanies a woman who drinks enough such that she is not sufficiently in possession of her mental faculties and cannot form the requisite intent to voluntarily consent, and then he has sex with her as she remains conscious but doesn't physically resist? Should the punishment be different for those two men? How so? How many different shades of grey exist between those two scenarios? 50, maybe?

Forcing yourself on a woman against her will is rape. Having sex with an unconscious woman is rape. Drugging a woman to exploit her sexually is rape. But biology and the complications of human relationships can make things a little murky beyond those absolutes. I have never done either of those things. But I have begged, cajoled, pleaded, tried reverse psychology, teased, begged some more, acted distant, told jokes, dared, double-dared, even triple-dog-dared (that last one works great for getting a woman to skinny dip) ..… all in the name of changing the NO into a YES. And I am certain that some girls had regrets the next day – and no, not always because I was less than stellar in my performance. That’s a topic for a whole ‘nuther thread.

At the end of the day, as several posters have suggested, is it more about respecting other people generally, rather than trying to list rules for what is and what isn't a sexual assault? I know that would not work in court (I'm a lawyer, we have to have our rules), but when it comes to real life, wouldn't that fundamental principle get us to the right conclusion most of the time?

Just my 2 cents.

[leftstreet]

1. Wordiest rape apology OP evah! n/t

[Whiskeytide]

3. I said I was a lawyer...

... what'd you expect.

[Whisp]

7. what kind of client did you defend?

nevermind.

[morningfog]

111. Was?

What happened?

[Iggo]

165. You said a lot of things.

[demmiblue]

12. Yep. This is getting beyond bizarre. n/t

[redqueen]

23. It is amazing how much time and energy is devoted to it. nt

[Mojorabbit]

85. +1000. nt

[Whisp]

2. just so you are aware, I know what you are doing.

and I know why you made that headline the way you did.

[LAGC]

5. What is it about 400-500 post users coming out of the wood-work all of a sudden?

This has to be a concerted effort...

[YoungDemCA]

8. It's an attempt to delegitimize the issue...

nt

[redqueen]

24. +1

[Squinch]

33. +2

[WCLinolVir]

127. You bet it is. Talk about projection.

[CoffeeCat]

156. I thought it was creepy...

...and weird.

[Starry Messenger]

15. We're coming up on winter break.

This must be the activity between studying for finals.

[kestrel91316]

32. Misogynist trolls working together to try to weaken women's progress

against the culture of patriarchy and rape that the RW wishes to promote.

[seabeyond]

34. yup. and the fucker has so little respect for women, women that have been raped, he

thinks it is all cutsey to start the thread as he did. this is beyond creepy.

[RKP5637]

77. It was a weird OP, to say the least! n/t

[seabeyond]

78. a man feeling belittled so many men and women standing up for rape victims. he is doing his jab

the best he can to cause pain to those that have been raped, of all genders, or age of rape.

it is not subtle or coy. it is a slap in the face to all that experienced it. it is shameful.

[YoungDemCA]

4. Any form of coercion crosses the line

BOTH partners should be able to consent, without pressure from the other to do something they don't want to do.

As far as more meta-social aspects...I blame the unequal power distribution between men and women for what is known as "rape culture." Changing the power relations will change the culture.

[Whiskeytide]

6. I like your use of the term coercion...

... it fits. But even it can be defined with some variance. But I agree with your take on the power distribution. That may have more to do with defining rape than anything else.

[pnwmom]

211. But he did raise one issue that I've wondered about, too.

If both partners are conscious but drunk -- and assuming there's no physical force -- is the man still guilty of raping the woman? Is the woman also guilty of raping the man? Are they both guilty? Neither guilty? This might have been more clearcut in the days when the rape laws didn't allow for the possibility of a woman being the rapist.

[FightForMichigan]

9. Well.

Short answer: Thanks for thinking about these things.

Long answer to follow....

Rape is rape. Right? And sex with anyone who has not consented is rape. Always. Or is it? My wife and I, in our younger years when we drank more often to excess, had sex on more occasions than I can count when neither of us were in any condition to voluntarily consent. It never occurred to us that we were raping each other. Now, you can say there was implied consent, but if we start recognizing the defense of implied consent, where will that take us? Would it be enough that I thought she consented? If she had called the cops the next morning, would I have been charged?

Far be it from me to guess at how the relationship between you and your wife operates. If the two of you have an ongoing agreement that this is OK, then it is OK - for the two of you. And the OK-ness of it can be withdrawn at any time, such as, for example, one of you is angry at the other for something that day or just isn't feeling well right then or plain old doesn't want to. If neither of you feels like you've been used against your will, I'd say you're OK. But she isn't here to ask. Maybe you should ask her?

Let’s get a little more into left field. What if a man visits a prostitute, and pays her for sex. Unknown to him, she is being forced to trick by her employer, and it is against her will. Is the John guilty of more than solicitation? Has he raped her? Has the pimp raped her?

So you're walking down the street when someone offers to sell you a really nice diamond ring. Sure is pretty. And the price is unbelievable. Who knew you could get such a nice ring for $10. And, being the gullible sort, you take the bargain. Holy cow, imagine your surprise when you get tagged for receiving stolen goods! What's that? You didn't know? How could you not have known? Did you really think you could buy a ring like that for $10? We say you participated in the crime. Yes, the John raped her. Which is one of the reasons I have some serious misgivings about prostitution. It had damned well better go along with a strong program to eliminate human trafficking or you're throwing the doors open to an epic expansion of human misery.

True, we have evolved the ability to reason and have become civilized, but does that completely suppress the physical instinct to have sex with any female we can have sex with? Completely?

Really? Really? You mean mankind, with its oversized brain, it's ability to harness fire, develop language and write books, pass down knowledge from generation to generation, create medicines to cure disease and fly to the moon - to do all these things - somehow a man can't control his own penis? This is nonsense. You can have instincts all you want. It doesn't mean you get to act on them and it's OK.

And, if there is an ongoing battle between our reason and our instinctive urges, what do alcohol and/or drugs do to influence the outcome of that internal conflict? How many of us have done things while drunk that we never would have done sober? Should “I was drunk” be a defense? Should it be taken into consideration at all?

Drinking is a choice, and when you drink, you're not absolved of responsibility. Some good drivers never would take chances with a motor vehicle that they would take when they're drunk. That's no excuse for killing someone. In fact, it's treated much more harshly that someone who has a fatal accident caused by a mechanical failure, for example.

Our society is inundated with violent, forceful, aggressive sex every day, and in every conceivable form. Movies, video games, TV. Watch the Lifetime channel on a Saturday afternoon if you doubt me. How about humor - Headley Lamar: “You said ‘rape’ twice”. Thug: “I like rape”. Headley: “Ooooh. Kinky”. I laughed my ass off at that one, but now I can see an argument that it was promoting rape. I hate to say it, but rape is everywhere these days.

Yeah, that's shitty, isn't it?

Is it any wonder that our 14, 15, 16 and 17 year old children are confused as Hell about where the damn line is? Especially when their bodies have been ravaged by hormones? We all understand the scenario in a post I saw earlier in one of the threads that if "..she takes off her own clothes, helps you take off yours, and then says 'let’s do it now' ”, we have consent. And we all understand that forcing yourself on someone who is resisting in any way is rape.

So, what is resisting?
“No”.

Yep, right there. You got it in one. Why you went on from that, I have no idea.

Guys ARE taught - by peers, media, whatever – that turning a “NO” into a “YES” is the art of seduction. So where does the seduction end and the rape begin? If you persuade her to consent, is that okay? What if you lie to her to get the consent? “I’ll love you to the end of time”? “The doctor says when they turn blue, it can do irreparable damage and I might not be able to have children later”. What if you just wear her down and she gives in out of exhaustion?

Oh baloney. Guys are also taught that no means no. So stop at no. What is so damned hard about this?

Is the line different if you’re the father of the teenage girl versus the father of the teenage boy? Why?

Don't know what this means.

Some women do like to “be taken”. I have known a few, and one of them told me once that it made her feel less guilty about liking the sex. I remember thinking about how messed up that was, but I blamed the double standards of our society, not myself for participating in the “sex game” she openly desired. I suppose if you had been watching us from the closet, you may well have thought I was forcing myself on her. But I didn't rape her. At least I don’t believe I did.

Consensual play is just that: consensual play. She told you what she wanted to do and the two of you did it.

I also understand that some women, as screwed up as it sounds, do have stranger-rape fantasies. Haven’t known any of those. But I guess it takes all kinds.

They're not rare and they're exactly that: Fantasies. Fantasies are something a person has control over. Rape is the utter loss of control and assault from another person. They're completely different things.

Is there a difference, in any way or to any degree, between (a) the stranger who jumps out of an alley or crawls in through a locked window and forces himself on a woman sexually, and (b) the date who accompanies a woman who drinks enough such that she is not sufficiently in possession of her mental faculties and cannot form the requisite intent to voluntarily consent, and then he has sex with her as she remains conscious but doesn't physically resist? Should the punishment be different for those two men? How so? How many different shades of grey exist between those two scenarios? 50, maybe?

They are both rapists. If, however, a rapist inflicts additional harm during the rape, he may be subject to more charges. For example, here in Michigan, we are poised to pass a law that specifies that strangulation (not to the point of death) will soon be considered an attempt to inflict bodily damage less than murder and it will carry a 10-year sentence. So if a rapist tries to cut off someone's breathing before or during a rape in order to subdue them, they risk an additional 10-year prison sentence on top of any sentence for the actual rape. (Or, more realistically, the rapist can plea down to a strangulation charge and serve 10 years.)

Forcing yourself on a woman against her will is rape. Having sex with an unconscious woman is rape. Drugging a woman to exploit her sexually is rape. But biology and the complications of human relationships can make things a little murky beyond those absolutes. I have never done either of those things. But I have begged, cajoled, pleaded, tried reverse psychology, teased, begged some more, acted distant, told jokes, dared, double-dared, even triple-dog-dared (that last one works great for getting a woman to skinny dip) ..… all in the name of changing the NO into a YES. And I am certain that some girls had regrets the next day – and no, not always because I was less than stellar in my performance. That’s a topic for a whole ‘nuther thread.

You're making this so much harder than it has to be and I don't know why. Rape - generally speaking - is commiting sexual acts upon someone against his or her will. It's simple. Legally speaking, each state will have its own definition, but it usually goes something like this: the sexual penetration of a person vaginally, orally or anally without consent. You can beg someone all day long and you might be an annoyance and make an ass of yourself, but begging isn't rape. Because no one has been sexually penetrated against his or her will. If she gets fed up to the point she decides to have sex with you just to make you quit whining, that's still not rape, because she decided too. If you got fed up with all that and held her down and did it anyway, or threatened her to the point she was unable to safely say no, or drugged her to get rid of resistance, then yes -that's rape.

(I'm a lawyer, we have to have our rules)

Oh, well, that explains a lot. And I suspect you know a lot of answers to your own questions. So my question to you is - why are you trying to muddy the waters?

[arely staircase]

20. That was good

I have a son and a daughter and I appreciate your answers to this misinformed op.

[LisaLynne]

49. Thank you so much for taking the time to write such a thoughtful,

precise response. It is far more than the OP deserved and much kinder than I am able to be. I thank you for it.

[Ms. Toad]

83. Thank you for this excellent and thorough response! n/t

[Luminous Animal]

125. That was great.

[lunatica]

185. Great comments.

Welcome to DU!

[cali]

10. ugh. another clueless man.

[kestrel91316]

35. He's not clueless. He's wilfully obtuse, and a raging sexist pig IMHO.

Almost certainly a RW troll.

[seabeyond]

37. he is smeering the offensiveness of rape in victims face. this person needs to delete or

go

we just have an OP of a rapist telling us his experience. now this garbage.

[kestrel91316]

45. I'd bet serious money that they are sockpuppets of the same RL person, and that that person

has been accused of rape in the past (and possibly convicted). SERIOUS, RAGING misogyny here.

[seabeyond]

54. they are probably pissed off men because some sexist got TOS. or a sock or whatever

but, it certainly seems there has been an absolute assault on women, using rape.

i cannot tell you how creepy/disgusting this is.

[Squinch]

55. I thought the same.

Lots of bloviating on, "is it really always that bad?" All of it sounding like justification for a past act.

Yeah, buddy, you are REALLY that bad.

[Whiskeytide]

90. You would lose the bet on all counts.

But your post and many others here simply want to attack me, when I'm trying to point out why teenagers can't be expected to always understand the rules. If they're not taught respect for others generally, then what hope do they have to be able to handle sex maturely?

And please point out an example in my op that you believe to have been mysoginistic.

[seabeyond]

95. well, golly gee, been talking about education for a good 24 hours without it sounding like

rape apology.

the whole point of about four threads is educating teens. and yet, we didnt have people feeling like this was some sick rape fantasy.

[kestrel91316]

190. Rape apologists are always mysogynists. By definition.

[WCLinolVir]

132. He goes on at length to "validate" a "grey area". Perp talk.

[kestrel91316]

191. Sounds exactly like the NAMBLA crowd trying to justify pedophilia.

[DonCoquixote]

11. OK, let me demolish some of your points

Japan: they have porn and video games that make the worst of American porn look like Disney. Go ahead and Google hentai and you will see what I mean. And yes, a lot of this is targeted at teenagers. Yet, japan has one of the LOWEST amount of rapes in the world. Why, because Japanese boys are taught Rape is actually WRONG.

Fantasies: I suggest you look up the terms "Safe, sane and consensual." In many of the BDSM circles/clubs, there is an iron law that says that if something stops being consensual for one second, the person is thrown out of the club, reported to authorizes, and otherwise f'ed with by lawyers (especially since oddly, many lawyers happen to be the people behind the leather masks.) A girl fantasizing about something is in no way shape or form consent to be raped..

In other words, no, it does not matter what the "slave" allowed (repeat: alllowed) to be done to her or him for the past 4 hours, if it stops being consensual, it gets stopped! I bring this up to show that the line of thought was BS even in extreme cases, much less some lady reading Erica Johns "Fear of flying" or "50 shades of grey."

[sufrommich]

19. Japan does not have " one of the LOWEST

amount of rapes in the world". Rape goes widely unreported in Japan because of it's 100 year old sexist rape laws and a culture that tends to question the victims of rape.

http://www.japantoday.com/category/lifestyle/view/victims-are-finally-learning-to-speak-out-against-japan%E2%80%99s-outdated-rape-laws

[redqueen]

30. THANK YOU! nt

[Bonobo]

232. Ummm, yes it does. Statistics prove it.

Your article doesn't do a SINGLE THING to demonstrate that Japanese women report rape less than any other country.

You are relying on old stereotypes of Japanese women and submissiveness and you actually do not know what the people are like.

You cannot lie with the statistics just because you have a "feeling" about them.

[Dokkie]

134. Enough with this idea that boys need to be told rape is wrong

I grew up int one of the most patriarchy countries in the world. My parents never told me about rape, no birds and the bee story nothing of that sort but nobody had to tell me that it is wrong to hold a girl down and have sex with her against her will.

But the part about equating coercion to rape is just something I don't believe in. Just the same way a car sales man puts up a performance to get a potential buyer to buy a car, that is the same way a horny man or woman gets a potential but reluctant mate to have sex with him/her. In the first case, the car salesman did nothing wrong and in the sex case, it is not rape.

[lunatica]

13. The ONLY acceptable sex is adult consensual sex. Period.

If a woman resists but gets bullied into it (you call it seduced or cajoled or whatever, but it is bullying) then it is rape.

If a couple agrees to have kinky sex, not just one partner, but both, then it is consensual sex.

It's not all that gray, no matter how much you think it is.

[LanternWaste]

21. I think that *anyone* who tries to if-and-or-but your statement is either

"The ONLY acceptable sex is adult consensual sex. Period..."

I think that *anyone* who tries to if-and-or-but your statement is either an idiot, a child, or (most likely) simply rationalizing and enabling that behavior.

You're right, it's not a gray area at all.

[Whiskeytide]

88. I agree with that as a gold standard.

But the reality is that not all the people having sex are adults. We have to deal with that issue. Most of my post was in the context of teenagers, although I did not make that entirely clear.

[seabeyond]

99. seriously? you have kids. you have yet to find a way to clealy teach you children the proper

way to treat each other both in sex and relationship and interaction in respect to each other? cause i gotta tell you, i have two boys that clearly understand the lines and it really was not tough or puzzling for them at all.

[alp227]

101. that being said, I am ASTONISHED that so many "adults" cannot decipher such simple moral issues.

I'm beginning to consider that high school diplomas should be withheld from such "adults".

[Lightbulb_on]

27. What is the difference between...

bullying or seducing cajoling vs. changing ones mind?

How does one codify it into law? That's the grey area and a sticky problem.

[redqueen]

38. The difference is clear. One changes one's OWN mind...

Nagging, cajoling, begging, bargaining, etc... are all forms of COERSION.

[Fumesucker]

50. How come you didn't weigh in on my OP?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021906102

Because that's exactly the point I was making, where do you draw the line?

I'd be interested in what you have to say on that OP.

[roguevalley]

200. if rape was more common among men than it already was, we would not have these

threads. No means no. I don't give a damn how old you are. I am sick of the shit women have to suffer whether its on the street somewhere, out of the mouth of an apeman politician or on a message board. After a season of idiots saying God wants women raped, it is a blessing to be impregnated by a bastard and we have magic lady parts, I have no tolerance left.

[Shibby2002]

235. Seriously. Jesus fuck. No means no and if you have to ask, then ASK.

This is a brutish analogy, but would these people, who are so obsessed about arguing the microfine points just go to a neighbor's house and keep rapping and shouting in the windows if the person inside didn't answer the first knock?

I can't believe basic human decency has to be laid out like this.

[Shibby2002]

234. Cheap, disingenuous argument

Stop trying to pied piper people down a rhetorical rabbit hole. There's a whole spectrum of wrong, but it's troubling if you find yourself obsessing on where the "line is". Take a step backwards from the line.

[cliffordu]

86. Lol.....yep.

Specially the begging.

[cliffordu]

93. Is that different than coercion?

What if the perp has a humongous diamond ring, flowers and chocolates?

And a singing quartet out on the lawn?

[seabeyond]

96. what about it? nt

[redqueen]

103. Fucking sick. Sick and idiotic.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1909616

Since you seem "confused" as well.

[cliffordu]

154. So I guess Zombie Woof is all out of the question, then......

[mathematic]

155. With that definition you've made many more women rapists

and many more men rape victims. Was that an intended consequence of your definition?

[obamanut2012]

44. What a surprise to see you stating this

Not.

[Lightbulb_on]

48. I'm sorry...

Who are you again?

[LanternWaste]

64. Common sense and its application in any given situation, I would think.

"What is the difference between bullying or seducing cajoling vs. changing ones mind?"

Common sense and its application in any particular given situation, I would think.

[Lightbulb_on]

68. Common sense isn't as common as I would like...

I've seduced a few women, here and there.

I haven't raped one yet and resent the implication that one equals the other.

[LanternWaste]

84. It's never failed me in these types of situations.

It's never failed me in these types of situations.

Common sense is in fact, quite common (hence the name), however the application of that common sense may not be... but that is merely by our own choice. We often choose to apply it only when it suits our desires, as we often choose to ignore it when that suits our desires. But all things being equal, common sense is indeed present in all of us... regardless of whether we choose to use it or not.




"...resent the implication that one equals the other."

I believe you're confusing "implication" with "inference".

[Lightbulb_on]

94. They imply... I infer...

They imply that rape is equal to seduction and I infer their meaning...

[nomorenomore08]

160. One *does not* equal the other.

You're the one blurring the lines, more than anyone else, I think.

[nomorenomore08]

158. It can't be "codified into law" necessarily.

But as I said in a prior thread, just because something isn't criminally actionable doesn't make it right. No one should ever think along the lines of "How much can I get away with without getting in trouble?" when potentially doing another person great harm.

[lunatica]

186. When a girl gives into a petulant boy because he has worn her down

it is not consensual. She isn't suddenly all aroused and can't wait for sex. She is giving in for whatever reasons, but none of those reasons have to do with whether she wants sex or not.

[dkf]

229. Where does prostitution fit into this?

If you really would rather not have sex but do it to survive is that rape?

[lunatica]

230. You answer that question for yourself

Prostitution is an economic issue. Obviously the women and men involved in getting money for sex aren't doing it for sexual pleasure. It's to make money. Are you really confused about that?

[hrmjustin]

60. I agree with your statement. There is no wiggle room here to me.

[pnwmom]

212. And if both were conscious but drunk, and not capable of giving consent,

are they both rapists?

[lunatica]

223. Does the word consensual confuse you?

[pnwmom]

224. Yes, I guess it does. I've told my sons that if a woman is drunk, she can't give consent. Period.

But then the question is, if the man is drunk, then he can't give consent either. If they have sex, neither of them can give consent. So is the only time a man can have sex with a drunk woman when he is drunk also? Or does that make him a rapist -- and her, too?

[Chorophyll]

14. So... it's not rape if you coerced her by being utterly and insanely relentless?

How about if we call it coercion and make it a "murky" crime and put you in a "murky" jail?

I hate seeing all this rape apology on DU. When it was all about Julian Assange, I had to ignore it. But today's threads weren't started by Julian Assange.

[closeupready]

16. Our culture is deeply sick when it comes to sex/power/rape, IMO.

But I don't know where this thread can really go constructively.

[RKP5637]

79. And imagine if gay, when young someone tried to drag me out of a bar once. I'm not

bragging, but I was good looking. It still chills me to this day. I'm sure the cops would have really cared one SH** about me.

[closeupready]

135. I can indeed imagine, though it never happened to me.

But most of us have been at parties or wherever where inebriated gay men became vulnerable.

[The Straight Story]

17. If a gay man asks you for sex, and you say no...then what? (nt)

[nomorenomore08]

161. Then he (the gay man) should probably stop asking. Same goes for heterosexuals.

[lightcameron]

18. The rape fantasy.

"I also understand that some women, as screwed up as it sounds, do have stranger-rape fantasies. "

This is a topic that is discussed all the time in the publishing world. The fantasy you named is among the top-sellers in ebooks these days. There's even a hint of it sneaking into contemporary romance, the best-selling genre in traditional (and indie) publishing. I know two women who read it now that e-readers are so prevalent. They can sit on a plane, in a coffee shop, wherever, and read what they please without anyone having to see a book cover that discloses what they're reading.

Interesting phenomenon.

[nolabear]

39. People also read about war and cannibalism and murder, but seldom aspire to do it.

No means no.

[LisaLynne]

52. Right, because it's fantasy.

It's pretty simple. In a fantasy, YOU the person having the fantasy, has all the control. So, even though a woman is fantasizing about being raped, really, she's NOT being raped -- she's in complete control. I don't get why people don't get that.

Or maybe they do and they just want to believe that women secretly want to be raped.

[obamanut2012]

120. Women do not fantasize about getting raped -- ever

[LisaLynne]

124. Um, yes, some do.

And it's impossible to say "never" about pretty much anything about over half of the population of the planet.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/women-who-stray/201012/the-rape-fantasy
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/dr-raj-persaud/womens-sexual-fantasies_b_1511322.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_fantasy

[obamanut2012]

128. Um no, they don't

[LisaLynne]

131. Did you look at the links? nt

[WCLinolVir]

129. Uh, is it really rape if you are in control of the fantasy?

It is fantasy, not reality.

[LisaLynne]

130. Um that was my point. nt.

[seabeyond]

133. but, that is really a very good point and interesting. i like how obama did that.

no, dont fantasize about rape.

the definition of rape would be no control.

fantasy have control

so not rape that is being fantasized about because there is total control....

nothing is done that the person does not create

by the very definition it is not rape.

very good point. i like.

[LisaLynne]

137. Sorry -- misread your post!

lol, it's getting late and all of this is making me crazy!

So, my edit is that, yeah, that's always been my thing about "rape fantasy". It's not REALLY fantasizing about being raped as it would really be IRL. You control who is involved, you know? So, right there, it's not reality. And yeah, maybe it could even be argued it's not REALLY a rape fantasy, but even so -- I don't want to waste time trying to argue that women don't fantasize about it. So what if they do? it's a fantasy version of it and it doesn't mean that they secretly want to be raped.

[seabeyond]

138. yes. but this is thinking outside the box.

this is fun.

when fantasizing about rape, you get to fantasize the rapest. everything you want in a man. not true with rape. you do not get choice and he is NOTHING you want in a man. so right there .... it REALLY is not rape.

you fantasize how you are touch, what is done to you. but, with real rape there are no choices.

so, you are not truly fantasizing about rape.

really, let you mind go and fantasize a real rape with someone repulsive and tell me how that works for you.

i think it is interesting. and really. i am so done with all this. this was more a fun exercise in thinking outside the box. three hours ago, when i first read this OP, then i was pissed and may have overreacted. but, i am fine now. and off to bed.

[LisaLynne]

140. Yes, me too

But yeah, I think a lot of people put a lot of energy into the whole idea of women having fantasies about rape, but to me, it doesn't really matter. It's not, as you said, thinking about someone repulsive to you or how it would REALLY be. It's a make-believe version, so it's NOT the real thing and thus has no real bearing on a discussion of IRL rape.

Good night!

[seabeyond]

142. excellent. a fun part of the thread

Thanks. And good night toy you, also

[obamanut2012]

167. Do people at a Murder Mystery Party want to be murdered?

No.

Women also do not want to be raped. That is ridiculous.

Rape Fantasy is:

"They're not attracted to rape.

They're attracted to a fantasy pseudo-rape-that-isn't-actually-rape. The horror, helplessness, violence and general repulsion of the crime of rape is not something that turns these women on. As the article states, they are turned on by the "rape"r being attractive and overpowering and somehow the whole situation being erotic. So what is turning them on isn't really rape - although if they call it rape it seems even more dangerous and exciting - because it is just a fantasy."

"In a culture where couples getting to know each other talk about their sexual pasts, demystifying themselves with the hum-drum, eroticism is murdered by familiarity. Littler wonder the fantasy of the stranger rises from the totally bored unconscious whose erotic nature is being stifled by relationships mimicking soap opera.

The woman in fantasy is taken, not raped. But the cold scientists do not know how to differentiate ''taking'' from ''rape.'' They worship the family and are rational."


"So women want to be taken against their will, except only when and where they want to, and only by attractive strangers."

[seabeyond]

170. except only when and where they want to... AND how.

i found this so interesting. and why i never saw this. but, i have not spent anytime really thinking about it. BUT... i love that you gave this to us.

thanks.

[obamanut2012]

173. I thought that was an interesing comment

Because, what researchers and scientists call "rape" fantasies has nothing to do with rape. I think you can legitimately talk about BDSM or other aspects, but it isn't rape(even fantasized) if the person gets to pick who, where, how, and when. Women do not want to be raped.

[seabeyond]

174. yup. and it also put a different slant on the bdsm

just sex in play generally with more toys. and performance. lol.

we make it so "dark" and really..... meh.

[obamanut2012]

175. right!

[Democracyinkind]

213. I used to date a girl that was into it.

We never got to play it out (not the best role to play for me, with my history...). But from what I gleaned she was very controlling of the set up. Down to the last details, every action pre-determined and many taboos clearly laid out.

The difference between the fantasy and being raped is about as gaping as the difference between boys playing soldier and their actual wish to participate in war later on as adults.

This is, of course, anecdotal evidnce. I have no scientific basis on which to believe that my personal experience is representative of women's rape fantasies in general. Then again, as of yet I have no reason to believe that my aquaintance was anything out of the ordinary as far as the set up of her fantasies were concerned.

[obamanut2012]

219. I suspect your experience is the norm

[roguevalley]

201. well. If women want to be raped as so many imply, then men must want to as well.

No? How come? I don't believe rape fantasy shit. I also don't believe if it is so prevalent and all, that it should only be heaped on women. How about it men? Do you want to be raped too? The pugs think its god's will. They might even have a few magical body parts for you too. Food for thought. :|

[alphafemale]

164. sorry...to say. some do.

Mostly terribly suppressed women.

Usually they see what normal people would practice as healthy sexual expression as sinful and "of the devil."

It is even in our mythology. The Incubus the Succubus.

So there is that.

Some sort of force also seems to be the theme of most romance fiction. Or so I've heard.

as in Shades...


To my mind no person having an active sex life actually reads that crap.

[obamanut2012]

168. No, they do not, no matter how many posters say they do

To quote someone else somewhere other than DU:

"They're not attracted to rape.

They're attracted to a fantasy pseudo-rape-that-isn't-actually-rape. The horror, helplessness, violence and general repulsion of the crime of rape is not something that turns these women on. As the article states, they are turned on by the "rape"r being attractive and overpowering and somehow the whole situation being erotic. So what is turning them on isn't really rape - although if they call it rape it seems even more dangerous and exciting - because it is just a fantasy."

"In a culture where couples getting to know each other talk about their sexual pasts, demystifying themselves with the hum-drum, eroticism is murdered by familiarity. Littler wonder the fantasy of the stranger rises from the totally bored unconscious whose erotic nature is being stifled by relationships mimicking soap opera.

The woman in fantasy is taken, not raped. But the cold scientists do not know how to differentiate ''taking'' from ''rape.'' They worship the family and are rational."

"
"So women want to be taken against their will, except only when and where they want to, and only by attractive strangers."

[alphafemale]

171. You call taken a term

You differentiate it from rape?

If you acknowledge then that "being taken" is a legitimate fantasy to a sexually suppressed female...?

Many, many women on this planet have not owned their sexual power for eons.

Many, many women believe the bullshit that wanting sex makes them a slut.

That is where the "being taken Gray" fantasy comes from.

[obamanut2012]

172. That obviously isn't my term

By, yes, in the "fantasy" that's what it is. Women do not want to raped, any more than the "corpse" at a Murder Mystery wants to be murdered.

I also think many posters don't get consensual BDSM.

[seabeyond]

169. that would have been in the 70's and 80's known as the bodice ripper. but, then, if you look at the

supression of women in that time just steppin out, the title of slut was relevant, so it made since that the decision was taken from the woman at those times, for the storyline. the writing industry had to shift in the 90's and that scenario is totally unaccepted today in writing.

now, you are right, there is a stepping out in the erotica writing that explores more of that. but, not so much mainstream writing. it is interesting. as authors shifted with time.

now the romance have stories that will fit in with any of the other books on the shelf. not more romance than a childs, koontz or sanford.

[L0oniX]

61. Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said:

Geeze! Debate or Wambulance? Hmmmm How about "MORON ALERT" ...What ...you lack debate skills? Discuss the issue or deny that it is an issue or say what you think about the issue that may or may not be an issue. WTH is with people? Ya got to alert cause you don't like what someone "QUOTES"? My advice coming from Bob Newhart is "STOP IT" ...but well um ..."NO ...JUST STOP IT" ...you wanted an answer and it is "STOP IT"!

[Odin2005]

147. At the thrift store I work at I would say about half of the romance novels we have...

...involve rape fantasies. As a guy whose best friend is a rape survivor I found that pretty damn disturbing

[redqueen]

22. This is some sick shit.

Yes means yes. Anything else is rape.

It is that simple.

AND unless a woman expressly says she personally enjoys faked rape, then its rape.

[seabeyond]

25. what is your intent for excusing, validating, justifying rape? nt

[seabeyond]

26. please be man enough to self delete your post. from the title on, it is offensive.

we really do not need another huge thread validating rape.

[Rex]

29. Can you believe this shit is still being spewed forth?

Unfuckingbelievable. The OP itself is a work of RWing art.

[seabeyond]

31. fuckin start, all this talk about rape..... that is fuckin sick. and clear what a perverts

motive is.

thru out the WHOLE post.

[Rex]

40. This is the first I've seen people try and defend

something as vile as rape...in a 'round about' way as to cover their tracks. I agree, this is sick shit.

[redqueen]

43. Oh?

You missed all that 'before we called it date rape we called it exciting' crap?

There are people who have such opinions. That they aren't widely condemned, and instead are looked up to says s lot about society.

[bettyellen]

74. There isn't anything in this OP We haven't seen on DU before

But we've never seen it all coming from one poster. Many men here agree with at least part of this crap. They're alerted on and nothing happens.

That- and the amazing slap downs in this thread that were already there- was why even though it repulsed me, I voted to leave it alone.

Many men here have made at least one of the arguments or ruminated about the issue in exactly the same fashion as this OP, and deeply offend many women here but the DU community allows it to stand.
We don't give a fuck about women and allow the conversation to be dominated by men who -at best- all LIE and say we claim rapists are the majority or default position of men.

Unless sexist bullshit becomes a violation of TOS violation here, this is what the mods leave us wallowing in. There ain't anything in this OP we haven't seen "left alone" here before. I know Will Pitt never noticed it, but many of us have.

[seabeyond]

76. the title is the creep all of any title i have seen. says a hell of a lot about the poster,

for sure.

pretty ugly to try to play off getting off on others hurt and painful story. i do not know how a man can look himself in the mirror with this. really. but then i was raised by a man, who would be appalled anyone would behave in this manner.

as for the rest of the post. you are right. and again, doesnt say much about a grown man if he hasnt figured out what rape it.

[bettyellen]

82. Interesting. The title doesn't bother me but I do think

That we have to face up and be honest that he's not the only person - today or thirty years ago - that has these thoughts or attitudes.
I only hope the members here who have expressed any of the same would do some soul searching and see what a pile of shit this reasoning adds up to.
Even the nice guys here are out in force telling us how rare and obviously sociopathic date rapists are and that our own experiences are not as true as men's recollections. I'm so tired of that bullshit.

Sorry if I offended anyone by leaving it up.
But I don't think hiding this crap helps us any unless we actually have good policies about sexism here. So it's still a boys club here and so I'm not pretending we're more enlightened than we are. I'm also not pretending its the default of all men are like this ( as if anyone ever did.l)....

[seabeyond]

87. true that

that he is by far the only one. i have talked about it often enough. that does not feel like what this is though. it feels like a payback because some are unhappy with women on this forum. we have gotten too uppity. a couple posters were tossed. and they are going to use whatever piggish means to let us know they are unhappy with us.

i am see it in a couple places with enough people.

Sorry if I offended anyone by leaving it up.
But I don't think hiding this crap helps us any unless we actually have good policies about sexism here. So it's still a boys club here and so I'm not pretending we're more enlightened than we are. I'm also not pretending its the default of all men are like this ( as if anyone ever did.l)....

you do what you feel is right. thanks for the explanation. i like your last paragraph and couldnt agree more.

thanks

[TorchTheWitch]

148. I'm hugely offended that jurors are leaving these vile posts

It is the exact opposite of what jurors are supposed to be doing. By voting to leave a post alone you are telling the community and the Admins that you feel that rape apology is acceptable opinion to be on DU and that rape apologists are acceptable people to be members of DU. I truly have no flippin' idea why jurors are letting this filth stand for some insane "it should be seen" reason. No, it does NOT need to be seen and FAR more so than any silly spam posts selling designer jeans or some right-wing suspected troll's obnoxious views on cutting Social Security. It is the worst of the worst and should be hidden as a STATEMENT to the community and Admins that it is not acceptable here, and such posts need to be seen by Admin because no rape apologist has any business being a member here.

Hidden posts aren't deleted from view. And hiding a post does more than just make people go to the extra effort to read it... and let's face it, hidden posts are the single most widely read posts since no one can resist reading what was so offensive that it needed to be hidden, so the "it should be seen" excuse falls down right there. Hiding a post also stops continuation of more unacceptable posts in the thread. Rape apologists should NOT be given the opportunity to continue posting their filth and further try to argue their disgusting beliefs on the subject thereby further offending what is clearly the vast majority view that their beliefs are filth and they have no business being a DU member. The number of hidden posts one has also is a criteria that the Admin uses when deciding whether or not to ban someone. So, voting to NOT hide the most vile of posts tells the community and Admin that such disgusting views on rape are acceptable on DU and that members that are saying such things are acceptable community members to continue posting here, gives the member the opportunity to continue spewing their filth, and worse falsely shows to Admin what the community REALLY thinks of those views and the people that spew them by NOT allowing them rack up all their unacceptable posts as hidden.

Let's get this straight - rape apologists have NO business being members of DU nor given the opportunity to spew their filthy messages that offend and outrage the community in general and should not be falsely shown to Admin and the community that the community belief is that they are acceptable by not hiding such posts and not allowing such posters to rack up their score of hidden posts. The worst of the worst views here OF COURSE should be hidden. That is a no-brainer and how the jury system is supposed to work.

Seriously, bettyellen, how in the world do you expect DU to become less of this vile "boy's club" by NOT hiding the posts that should be??? What kind of sense does that make???

[bettyellen]

150. I'm sorry I can't pretend there was anything new or special in that post

I have seen bits of this post all before, and its all awful but alerts only treat the symptoms in this case.
I think it was more powerfully disturbing all put together. Just maybe some people will snap out of it and see what a crappy slippery slope that they are on. Because that OP was far from the first expressing those sentiments.

I'm disgusted by stuff all the time here, and I can't do the Admins job for them or pretend I still believe we can rid this place of misogyny without their help. So many men claimed they don't see any misogyny here but we both know there was nothing new at all in that OP.

At this point, I'd rather let others here take on these assholes and force the mods take a good look at the hostility they've overlooked. Because the bottom line is, I don't think it broke any rules, and I think that's what needs to change.

[roguevalley]

202. on another post someone made some remark about taking back this shit and making

it neutral or something. SIGH! I am old and I am SICK OF THIS SHIT! I would ask someone to make a poll. Everyone on du should have to take it.

"How many of you have someone in your family or familiar circle who was raped?"

I bet there isn't ONE PERSON ON THIS FORUM who could punch the no button.

What does that say about us as a species?

[TorchTheWitch]

144. bigotry in all forms is a TOS violation

Seeing as the Admins already identified just using gender slurs against women as a TOS violation I expect that it never occurred to them that they would NEED to make rape apology a TOS violation as they never imagined anyone like that was even here or think they would be accepted here. I imagine they never once thought that it would be necessary to include rapists and their apologists as a TOS violation anymore than murderers and their apologists a TOS violation - who would have imagined that anyone like that would be here much less blithely admit it publicly? Yet it's absolutely clear that that ARE flagrant rape apologists here who have no problems not only admitting it in what they say but arguing the issue. And they are NOT only new people. Two of the worst have been here for quite some time.

The bigger question is why isn't every single juror here hiding their disgusting posts and making sure they are banned from DU??? It shouldn't be NECESSARY to state in the TOS that rape apologists are not accepted here any more than it being necessary to state that child molester apologists or murder apologists are accepted here. But rape apologists ARE here and always have been. This most recent reveal of them has just been more "out there" and explicit as I've ever seen here. Because of DU's ever escalating war on women they've become even more emboldened to really spell out their vile opinions on dismissing rape and juries are letting them do it and continue to remain here.

Every single one of them needs to be banned. It goes without saying that DU is no place for rape apologists and shouldn't HAVE to be spelled out in the TOS because it's a damn NO-BRAINER.

[bettyellen]

153. I read that Skinner was alerted on the rapist confession and let it stand.

And it wouldn't shock me either.

I do agree, it should not be this way.i let that post stand because I thought everyone should take a good hard look at what's widely considered to be okay here.

I think the standards suck too. I alert on individual posts occasionally, but that one represents the blighted state of DU at the moment. Skinner should do something about it, because its a huge embarrassment to this community.

[Rex]

188. The post I am referring to is the one you decided not to read.

And you should be glad you did not read it. It seems incredulous that anyone would have those opinions...but I live with sane people that don't believe even in one iota toward that line of reasoning.

[Squinch]

41. Yep. My thoughts exactly.

[seabeyond]

42. so fuckin in your face, if you are a rape victim, the pig slaps you up across the head

i am so disgusted. that this stands. and any rape victim has to endure seeing that and reading this garbage.

and the poster has run away. does not even have the guts to address this. puts this garbage up, and runs.

[Squinch]

51. Worse than smacking you across the head, he is saying, "was it really rape?"

and "are there times when a rape isn't a rape?" There is nothing that infuriates me the way that particular line of idiocy infuriates me.

Yep. It's a war, all right. Waged by men who despise women and are terrified of them.

And I did notice how this guy seems to have dropped his bomb and run away.

[seabeyond]

58. cowards. all of them. and so much to play with the OP to offend all. but, wtf.... nt

[roguevalley]

203. men don't have to face this threat all the time. They don't have to think about their

surroundings or person or their female relatives and what not EVERY SINGLE DAMNED DAY OF THEIR LIVES!

If they did, they would be different. if men could get pregnant birth control and abortions could be had at the 7/11. Very few men can know what this means to you and how it changes you forever.

[hrmjustin]

62. Agreed!

[mercuryblues]

46. It is beyond

Sickening to see so many supposed, adult males condoning rape. Acting as if they don't know what rape is. I pity their daughters. How would they respond when the apple of their eye told them that their date to the prom raped them. Would they say it wasn’t really rape because they had a glass of spiked punch and didn’t resist enough or have the capacity to resist enough?

I have come to believe they are deliberately being so obtuse to justify their behaviour.

[seabeyond]

67. and lets pity their sons. because people with these attitudes have a fucked up life. and that is

what they will be giving to their sons.

[mercuryblues]

69. Actually

I deleted out this phrase - even more so their sons, lest they end up in prison for raping their prom date because she didn't resist enough to suit him. But at least he is a lawyer so he could blame and shame the victim.

[seabeyond]

70. yup. image these men as parents that cannot tell the difference between rape, and not rape. sad

for the kids that are taught all the grey and fuzzy line. setting up their children for a world of hurt.

[Rex]

28. There is so much failsauce in this OP. that I won't be

beginning or ending. Just a...WTH. Do this many grown adults have a problem understanding what rape is? Somehow I don't think so.

[LisaLynne]

53. No, they don't.

They want to think there is a gray area. Desperately want to think that. I think unfortunately we can imagine why.

[nolabear]

36. Serious question, and I want a serious answer. What if it was happening to you?

No, not some hot woman you wanted to sleep with anyway, but someone you didn't know, someone who had power over you and could fire you, or destroy your reputation, or leave you with an injury that would change the quality of your life forever (closest I can get to unwanted pregnancy)?

What if you truly did not want to sleep with this woman, if she was kind of a creep and you were feeling sick and dizzy and were about to pass out and all she thought about was getting you off somewhere and, let's say, forcing something inside of you, not knowing, because you were too far gone to tell her, if she was hurting you or doing something that you would feel deeply humiliated about?

What if you woke up somewhere, not knowing how you got there but knowing from the way your privates hurt that something had happened--you had no recall, no idea if a condom was used, if you were at risk for a terrible, life-altering disease, if you were seen, if there was more than one?

What if you had initially wanted to experiment with same-sex sex but when things got going you panicked and started saying "NO" even though you had initially said "Yes"? Would you feel raped if he went on and forced you?

Try to think about these things in a serious way and give me your answer. If you know what would constitute rape from that perspective, then how could you not from the other, unless it was simply a matter of thinking you would get away with it.

[Tsiyu]

47. Great questions

these rape apologists never answer the questions, though, because as holders of testicles, they are Special Snowflakes.

But I'd like to have the OP explain to me how long it would take him to be nagged, tricked, lied to, cajoled into a same sex encounter?

Would the OP want his NO to be a NO right from the get go, or would he tolerate being seduced?

If his male boss said the OP would be fired unless he consented to anal penetration with the boss's penis, would that be rape if he went ahead and consented?

I expect no answer, because in the OP's little fantasy dream world, only hetero males have the prerogative to rape at the drop of a threat....

[Tree-Hugger]

59. Special Snowflakes indeed

Just wanted to say that I have seen several of your responses on these thinly veiled pro-rape threads and I have really appreciated all that you've said.

[Tsiyu]

63. Thanks Tree-Hugger

So far, neither of our two self-avowed rapists will answer the questions. Guess they think rape only happens to "girls?"

Thanks for your kind words.

[rDigital]

56. Lack of consent is not consent. Coercion to force sex is rape. Rape is fucking rape. STOP.

NO means NO.....etc.

[graham4anything]

57. Tell you what, why don't you ask Dan Savage what he would thinks

[boston bean]

65. Looks like a hit and run poster. What exactly is "all this talk about rape"....

doing to you??

[DevonRex]

66. Is this the only way you can get any

attention? I'm sure it is.

[FightForMichigan]

81. well played.

[DevonRex]

102. Thank you. I think it was a well-deserved volley. Nt

[UtahLib]

146. What a dipshit!

He had to add "and not always because I had given a less than stellar performance" (or some such garbage). Considering his attitude toward women, he's probably never given a stellar performance in his life.

[DevonRex]

149. Yup.

Ugh. Just the thought...

[JohnnyLib2]

71. In court, in support of child victims, I've heard defense attorneys raise some of these points.

And the child was still a victim.....

[Solly Mack]

72. Gack.

Seriously? What next? Pedophiles bragging about and defending the rape of children?

Thread after thread of gross.

[seabeyond]

73. yup. cowards that dont know rape. seems like the picture was right on. nt

[NoGOPZone]

75. Evidently, more than just 14, 15, 16 and 17 year old children are confused

generously granting that you exceed that age.

[OldDem2012]

80. Trashing. I don't need to read yet another post on this subject. nt.

[seabeyond]

89. all the men and OP that dont get rape. here, read. "Meet the Predators"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021905552

[MineralMan]

91. That's a creepy post. You've just described

taking advantage of women and not feeling the least bit guilty about it.

Ugly shit.

[Starry Messenger]

92. This is basically necrophilia porn.

If all these men desire to overpower an unresisting lump of matter, get a Real Girl doll. Or a large pot roast. Seriously, wtf. Just microwave it to about 95 degrees. It would be much less harm to society and we wouldn't have to read these rambling offensive justifications for whacking off into unresisting flesh.

[seabeyond]

97. i am so glad that people are feeling the same thing from the post that i was.

cause it just feel yuk

[RegieRocker]

98. It's over their heads.

Too many think with emotion and not intellect. Whiskeytide you acknowledged what rape is. No means No. The woman has to say it. That is what many want to ignore and it is irresponsible and dangerous. It is a cause of many rapes. If a women is inebriated to the point of not being conscious then it is an automatic NO. That emotionally upset many.

[seabeyond]

100. ahhh, just us silly women being all emotional. uh hu. thanks guy for telling us silly women

the way it is.

[redqueen]

104. No, she DOESN'T have to say jack SHIT.

The SECOND someone stiffens up, stops responding positively, starts showing ANY SIGN WHATSOEVER that they are not FULLY AND COMPLETELY enjoying sex, YOU FUCKING STOP!

AND THEN YOU SHOW YOU FUCKING GIVE A SHIT ABOUT THEM BY ASKING THEM THINGS LIKE


IS THAT OK?
DOES THAT HURT?
DO YOU WANT ME TO STOP?
WHAT'S WRONG?
DO YOU WANT TO CONTINUE?

DO YOU GET THAT?

THIS IS NOT FUCKING CONFUSING AT ALL!

[morningfog]

109. Give RegieRocker a break. He doesn't even understand climate change.

He's agnostic on it. How can you expect him to understand consensual sex?

[redqueen]

112. Oh...

Well ... Yeah.

Why is he here again?

[obamanut2012]

122. lol

[RegieRocker]

178. I understand fully well

that Climate Change is not proven and when the temp doesn't continue rising the fools who have stood by it instead of attacking pollution will look as they are.

[morningfog]

189. That doesn't sound agnostic at all.

[RegieRocker]

192. Not proven either way is an

agnostic stance. Unfortunate you don't understand what an agnostic is. Pollution is proven however.

[roguevalley]

204. Regie booby, I live in alaska. You are wrong. Truly, get over yourself.

come up here and find the ice. I dare ya.

[RegieRocker]

217. LOL you really don't remember

from class that the world was hotter in the past do you? Less ice proves nothing. Climate change is a natural occurring process. Pollution is the enemy, not naturally occurring climate change.

LOL you say you're from Alaska? Have you not stepped outside? Do you not have water there that can freeze?

Temps in Alaska
http://climate.gi.alaska.edu/wx/current.html

[roguevalley]

221. what a sad pile of piffle honey. truly. you are part of the mind

Set that is going to kill us all. Put down the Bible and look around. The life you save will be your own. I'm old. I know how its changed. Citing superficialities is not evidence. This is life and death.

[nomorenomore08]

163. When in doubt, *ask*! Seriously! It doesn't harm anyone!

nt

[RegieRocker]

193. Yea right

May I kiss you?
May I fondle your breasts?
May I touch your vagina?
May I insert my penis into your vagina?

Sure......you go with that.

NO is the key to any situation and it must be communicated period.

[nomorenomore08]

195. Doesn't have to be in so many words. "Is this okay?" probably suffices.

And why do you seem to have such a chip on your shoulder about this anyway? Honestly mystifies me.

[RegieRocker]

198. Oh no I am not the one

with the chip. I abhor the craziness that I am observing about this issue. That a woman doesn't have to communicate NO is utterly irresponsible. That many want to keep it muddy and not clear. I have known many women that have been raped and it effects them greatly. I have seen the change. It saddens and angers me at the same time. The definition of rape according to law is “The penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.” http://blogs.justice.gov/main/archives/1801.

As you can read in the definition one must get consent. Is that a nod? A smile? A wink? etc. etc. The only way to clarify it succinctly is for the woman to say NO. It must be done otherwise confusion can result from miscommunication. People see things differently. Non verbal cues are not reliable. They can be misinterpreted.

So to answer your question. It is important to me because I've seen way too many woman suffer from the effects of rape and molestation. It is far too prevalent in our society so that is of great concern to me.

[nomorenomore08]

199. At least your heart's seemingly in the right place.

I'm not gonna argue about this anymore, because there's really no reason for me to.

[Shibby2002]

236. It goes something like this...

If unsure: look into your partner's eyes, touch his/her cheek, "would you like me to stop"? "No, go on....yesss...mmm...oh god" OR "yeah, I'm sorry, can we stop" will cover 99.9% of situations. It shouldn't even GET to NO.

Someone obsessed with the .1% of the time where things are "ambiguous" is probably not in tune with their partners' bodies and frames of mind and should spare the poor person the regrettable experience of fucking them. Seriously, how awful, to think that someone regretted fucking you, thinks you're a creep, thinks of you as an embarrassing moment in their lives. Why would anyone even want to take the chance?

[RegieRocker]

177. That is total B.S.

Once consent is given anytime during said intercourse if it becomes uncomfortable to the women and she wants to stop it is not RAPE! You're confused and emotionally charged. Wrong to not stop that is for sure. The label for this I am not aware of. Morally wrong yes, but not rape.

[MadrasT]

194. If one person says "stop" and the other person doesn't stop

it most certainly is rape.

Jesus, people are thick about this.

[RegieRocker]

197. The law

“The penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim.”

http://blogs.justice.gov/main/archives/1801

If a woman gives consent for penetration it is not rape if she says stop later. As I said it is morally wrong not to stop but she give her consent for penetration.

[roguevalley]

205. I am assuming you're a man. Thank you for the man wisdom. Silly me. I've been a girl

since the age of dinosaurs and I was confused. No at ANY FUCKING TIME means no. But then, maybe in the age of BULLSHIT that we are living through NO!!!! means OKAY YOU BASTARD! Go ahead.

Thanks for squaring the circle for me, pal.

[roguevalley]

222. bullshit. it is. if women arent allowed to change their mind even if you

Dont like the reason it is. And how typical male of you to call me emotional and insult me that way because we disagree. Shove your own panties sonny. You can bite me on the insults. Since as a man your chances of rape are infintessimal compared to mine you are basically talking out your ass. Thanks for the boorish male perspective of what this is in your estimation which apparently because you are male mean more than mine apparently. Ill file it under abortion: the male perspective. Thanks for the condescension dad.

[MineralMan]

181. Exactly. The OP had a list of

crap in the post. Every one of them said "no." The last one was completely specious, with multiple no statements ending with the fantasy that "she really wanted it."

"No" can be expressed in many many ways, and it means exactly the same thing no matter how it's expressed. "Yes" is also obvious. In between? Ask. How hard is that.

It's the same, no matter what the ages of the participants are. Most adults are more willing to say what they think. Adolescents, not so much. It's up to both parties to let the other person know what is good and what is not. If it's not clear, it's time for a question about what's going on.

[FightForMichigan]

105. Wait, what now?

The cause of many rapes is women not saying no? But the whole OP is a treatise to how to read "no" as anything other than "no." So what do you mean?

[redqueen]

106. the whole OP is a treatise to how to read "no" as anything other than "no."

Exactly.

That so many men spend so much time and energy in this exercise should be a huge fucking clue to anyone who is STILL somehow unclear on the concept of RAPE CULTURE.

[seabeyond]

107. the women that say no do not mean it enough? that would be legitimate rape from false rape.

legitimate rape would be the broken jaw, black eye, bloody lip. the false rape would me merely saying no? but not really meaning it and with a little drugs, coercion, assumption of rape fantasy, or desire for a dominate man to take her.... she is really saying yes.

[morningfog]

110. Are you agnostic on date rape too?

No doesn't have to be said for it to be rape.

[demmiblue]

113. For those interested, here is another RegieRocker vomit statement:

RegieRocker (4,063 posts)
29. Parents must teach daughters to say NO

firmly and clearly. This will eliminate any implied consent. Saying no is imperative in any situation. Parents must teach their sons NO means NO. Without the NO, confusion on the matter will continue. The woman has to say NO and the man HAS to respect that, otherwise he is a rapist. Many so called rapes have occured when the woman was afraid to say no for what ever reason sometimes unfounded. That won't work. They must say NO! Repeatedly if neccessary, even at the risk of physical harm sadly.

[FightForMichigan]

114. Listen to me:

((Note: This should have been addressed to Reggie))

A man had his hands around my throat. I couldn't breathe. He was shaking me. He was yelling, "Don't you EVER say no to me." I thought I was going to die. I didn't know if I'd live to see the sun rise again. I wondered what my parents would do when they found out. I knew right then I was going to do whatever I had to do to survive, and that meant keeping him calm. So you tell me, was I supposed to say no? Are you still unclear about whether what followed was rape or not? Was it legitimate enough for you?

[seabeyond]

115. demmi is not saying this. the poster copy and pasted something regie said. nt

[FightForMichigan]

117. You're right

It struck a nerve. Apologies.

[seabeyond]

119. the wonderful thing

with people that understand, in the middle of a trauma like you experienced....

no apologize necessary.

[roguevalley]

207. FlightForMichigan, I hug you. Seriously. :*(

[boston bean]

116. Do these fuckers get it that rapists LIE?????

Or that sometimes that resistance gets them dead?

I wish I had not read that comment of regie rockers.

[obamanut2012]

123. omg

[roguevalley]

206. repeatedly!?! What about telling boys if they molest someone's daughter their dad

will come over with a gun and blow their brains out. How about that conversation. And I am quoting my dad. And every other real man in my family.

[boston bean]

118. Rapists tell the judge the woman consented. Even though the victim was screaming no.

Really regie get a clue, right quick.

Rapists LIE.

[obamanut2012]

121. No, the woman doesn't have to say no

She has to say yes. "No" is her default answer.

My God. You should be ashamed.

[MineralMan]

182. Perfectly stated!

[morningfog]

108. Get lost.

[WCLinolVir]

126. WOW, Well I guess you painted yourself out of a corner HUH?

WTF??? "I'm a lawyer, we have to have our rules", just so few ethics. Every lawyer I've ever met has always tried to get away with screwing people over. Because you have to hire a lawyer to fight them, and they know it.
You must be so proud of yourself, quite the seducer , huh? Good liar, great manipulator, what a catch. What a perfect description of pathology. You don't have an accurate self-image do you? Cause to me you look like a fuc**ng creep. I don't really think there is that much ambiguity as you fantasize about. And I sure hope you don't have children to raise. Is it more about general respect? No it's about a clear boundary of what and when sexual behaviour is appropriate. Your fantasy that haranguing someone into sex is ok is perp talk.

[amywalk]

136. I am so fucking sick of this shit. Good fucking grief. I am so enraged by these people. I will

post later about my own experiences with rapists and child molesters, but until then, fuck you.

[seabeyond]

139. or amy....

if you are sick, be done with this shitty, creepy OP. it may not be worth it.

i think we as a whole pretty much made it clear what a repulsive OP it was and how offensive to any victim of rape.

[roguevalley]

208. Amy, you are loved. Know that from me. :*(

[lunasun]

141. so many self deluded entitled wannabes have lost their way all day

wtf
my prediction = next subject they take on will be back to self defense murder

"" I have seen animals have sex, live and on the screen. It does not appear to be, at least most of the time, consensual. Especially tigers – holy shit, that looks like rape. But it is instinctual, right, to preserve and extend the species? Homo Sapiens have evolved from animals. We are animals. ""

yep that quote right there tells ya they will justify murder next ...it's the animal in them!!!

[stevenleser]

143. These threads are ridiculous and your OP is pedantic, obtuse and insulting all at the same time.

It's ridiculously easy to tell if someone is consenting to something. They are in their right mind (not drunk or stoned or unconscious) you aren't physically or mentally coercing them and they say "Yes". If you really are a lawyer, all of those things should be pretty familiar to you.

And if someone really wants to have sex with you, you can double-check that by ensuring they have an entirely happy and positive demeanor about it.

This should not seem complicated enough to occupy the mind of someone with a graduate degree.

[bettyellen]

180. Steve, why do you think quite a few men here claim they can't tell they have consent?

I've seen this on a few other threads, not just the silly Robert Cray song one where one poster said no= keep trying.
Why on this particular topic do some men NEED to be petty assholes and play dumb? I don't get it.

[stevenleser]

184. I really dont know what its about. On the one hand, at least half seem to be low post newbies who I

suspect are doing it just to sow the seeds of division here. (I'm talking about the OPs, not necessarily the commenters)

I don't view their efforts as worthy of discussion hence my reasoning for not replying much to any of the OPs. I never had the talk about sex or consent from my parents other than a one sentence "Don't get anybody pregnant". I assumed that meant before I got married. At least I hope so since I do have a daughter from my first marriage.

Despite never having had the talk with my parents, I never had a problem understanding 'No'. For me, and I am sure any of the vast majority of us men and women who have only had sex with enthusiastic partners, the prospect of being inside or being penetrated by someone reviled by the experience is a turnoff to the point of being retch inducing.

[bettyellen]

187. Ah, I never notice who is new. I think many who had respectful behavior modeled for them don't need

any talk or education. I have met a lot of people with not such a great upbringing. But the ones here nit picking - claiming so much confusion about consent or insisting misogynistic jokes just never happen appear to be here only to bait people. I'm also guessing they never did have respectful behavior modeled because they are the ones who resist all real discussion on the matter at hand, and instead, make a joke of the whole thing. I guess that's what they mean by wallowing in ignorance.

[roguevalley]

209. I remember a fucking JUDGE in Ohio or some place back in the midwest told a FIVE

YEAR OLD GIRL that she was raped because she DRESSED PROVOCATIVELY!

I still have nightmares over that fucker.

[coalition_unwilling]

218. +1,000,000,000 x 1,000,000,000 - Well put and definitely

needed saying. Bravo! Tip of the hat!

[Odin2005]

145. Yes means yes, no means no, and if you keep pushing it you are a rapist.

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

151. it's making you what, exactly?

What kind of baiting post title is that?

[seabeyond]

157. really that disgusts me the most and makes clear it is an hostile OP to women. regardless if he

tried to stand by his words. which he has done very little. pretty much ran away.

but agree. a totally creepy title that is going to hit some people harshly.

[steve2470]

159. You need to delete this thread

I say this as another man who values women. After this thread, your tenure here at DU is very sketchy, to say the least.

[seabeyond]

162. decency. hey all, honest, decency and ALL this is so easy. dont even have to think. little decency

is all it takes, to have all the answers. a fuckin lifetime, in mere decency, i have never had any question from or with the men i have been with.

that is all it is.

are you men that are so confused, really putting out for all us to see, that the concept of decency is so foreign to you?

[nomorenomore08]

166. You realize your little story about you and your wife is trivializing genuine marital/acquaintance

rape? And that's only one of many things wrong with this OP.

[freedom fighter jh]

176. Re: prostitutes

I'm sure a lot of them are forced to be where they are. Maybe that's why solicitation is against the law.

By going to one you are perpetuating a system of abuse.

[roguevalley]

210. apparently, the OP finds categories of women to be good, bad, indifferent.

Young girls are slutty and therefore fair game.

Protitutes are worthless and therefore fair game.

Wives can't say no. They are married and therefore fair game.

SIGH. there is something terribly wrong here with this OP

[coalition_unwilling]

183. Reading your OP makes me sad that I am a man. Ugh, the "notches on the belt"

mentality is really depressing, among other things.

But I have begged, cajoled, pleaded, tried reverse psychology, teased, begged some more, acted distant, told jokes, dared, double-dared, even triple-dog-dared (that last one works great for getting a woman to skinny dip) ..… all in the name of changing the NO into a YES.

I'm not a lawyer but let me see if I can boil it down for you: if you wouldn't feel comfortable on the receiving end of whatever behavior is at issue, then you probably shouldn't be dishing it out either.

Your OP has to qualify as one of the weirdest, creepiest, most bizarre ones yet. My skin is still crawling. Ugh!

[Democracyinkind]

214. Reading your reply makes me a little less sad to be a man.

These last days have me really disgusted about some fellow men on DU.

On the other hand, these last days have made me very proud of allot of other men on DU - like you.

The more I read from you, the more I like it (ran into you in other threads too). thanks for making me feel a little less out of place.

[seabeyond]

220. have made me very proud of allot of other men on DU

actually, i tend more this direction personally. but then, this man is known to me and all i have had in my life.

[Aerows]

196. Holy Shit

I can't believe what I just read.

This has to be one of the most fucked up posts I've ever read on DU. That's pretty much the kindest thing I can say about it, and I realize that isn't very kind, but if I said anything further, I have no doubt it would get hidden.

Holy Shit.

[coalition_unwilling]

216. I'm right with you. Was totally creeped out and mortified for my gender. As

I think about it now, it is the underlying current of misogyny that infuses the OP that is the creepiest. The OP clearly views many women not as equals deserving his respect and (dare I offer a quaint and obsolete notion such as) 'love,' but rather as objects to be 'seduced' or 'conquered' (by daring, double-daring and triple-daring, whatever those phrases mean). I feel sorry for this guy's wife, assuming he's not bullshitting all of of us about his marital status. Like the other 'girls' he's sure had 'regrets' the next day, I'll wager his spouse has more than a few.

[Odin2005]

225. This shit makes my skin crawl.

[Aerows]

226. I don't even know what to say about it

Other than Holy Shit.

[Ian David]

227. TL;DNR

If the other person says no, or doesn't say yes, it is rape.

If that point isn't made in your post, the rest is either superfluous or wrong.

[salin]

228. Interesting... does such navel gazing change the impact of the assualt

on the victim?

Sadly, it does. It contributes to the shaming - and plays into Aiken's "legitimate rape" ideas. Other than heaping on additional emotional baggage that re-victimizes the victim by contextualizing and explaining away the violence committed upon the victim's body, this changes nothing else for the victim.

Poor abuser. The line was too fuzzy and all the rationalizations in his/her head were talking too loudly for for him/her to be able to sort it out.

But the traumatic stress is left with the victim, the fear/distrust of others is left with the victim, the emotional baggage now thrown into attempts at intimacy with a loved one is left with the victim, the shattered view of human nature is left with the victim.

Breath-takingly disturbing OP.

[geek tragedy]

231. Whiskeytide is probably a rapist and should be banned.

And imprisoned.

Some women do like to “be taken”. I have known a few, and one of them told me once that it made her feel less guilty about liking the sex. I remember thinking about how messed up that was, but I blamed the double standards of our society, not myself for participating in the “sex game” she openly desired. I suppose if you had been watching us from the closet, you may well have thought I was forcing myself on her. But I didn't rape her. At least I don’t believe I did.

[idwiyo]

233. Nice attempt to justify rape.