Why the South Loves Guns

[LeftInTX]

Southerners worship firearms as the ultimate anti-government symbol—which is why they will never accept gun control, no matter how many children die.

But none of this matters when guns serve as a powerful cultural signifier for Americans, in the South and elsewhere, of their self-reliance and independence from government. It makes no difference whether gun bans, as a matter of fact, drastically reduce gun deaths. It makes no difference that it’s extremely unlikely that the presence of an armed person would have stopped any of the massacres that have seized the headlines the past few years. It makes no difference that there is no reason whatsoever for a private citizen to own an assault weapon. The pragmatic logic of public policy is no match for the power of a cultural sensibility that has made guns a deep ideological attachment. A few thousand civilian deaths seem insignificant against the imaginary scenario of totalitarian government “turning on” its disarmed citizens.
__________________________________________

_____________
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/12/16/after-sandy-hook-gun-control-and-the-south.html

About all I can say is: This defies logic.

[Skittles]

1. America is sick of the inmates running the asylum

SICK of them

[LeftInTX]

3. A good description

[world wide wally]

33. I highly recommend you read this website if you want someone's insights on the south and the role it

plays in American politics.
It was posted after the 2004 election
http://www.fuckthesouth.com/

[Skittles]

34. I live in the fucking south

I don't have to read it, I LIVE it

[world wide wally]

39. You'll appreciate it. It's pretty funny

[zaireeka]

96. Last night I saw Lester Maddox on a TV show...

With some smart ass New York Jew
And the Jew laughed at Lester Maddox
And the audience laughed at Lester Maddox too
Well he may be a fool but he's our fool
If they think they're better than him they're wrong
So I went to the park and I took some paper along
And that's where I made this song

We talk real funny down here
We drink too much and we laugh too loud
We're too dumb to make it in no Northern town
And we're keepin' the niggers down

We got no-necked oilmen from Texas
And good ol' boys from Tennessee
And colleges men from LSU
Went in dumb. Come out dumb too
Hustlin' 'round Atlanta in their alligator shoes
Gettin' drunk every weekend at the barbecues
And they're keepin' the niggers down

CHORUS
We're rednecks, rednecks
And we don't know our ass from a hole in the ground
We're rednecks, we're rednecks
And we're keeping the niggers down

Now your northern nigger's a Negro
You see he's got his dignity
Down here we're too ignorant to realize
That the North has set the nigger free

Yes he's free to be put in a cage
In Harlem in New York City
And he's free to be put in a cage on the South-Side of Chicago
And the West-Side
And he's free to be put in a cage in Hough in Cleveland
And he's free to be put in a cage in East St. Louis
And he's free to be put in a cage in Fillmore in San Francisco
And he's free to be put in a cage in Roxbury in Boston
They're gatherin' 'em up from miles around
Keepin' the niggers down

-Randy Newman

[onehandle]

2. A friend of mine back in High School (Georgia) was convinced that the Confederacy would rise again.

Last edited Mon Dec 17, 2012, 08:16 AM - Edit history (1)

Trust me. The core of gun culture grips firmly to the Confederate flag and believe that government is out to get them.

Fuck them.

[RKP5637]

54. I was stunned when I left the NE to go to school in the Virginia area. Some of the people at school

were still fighting the civil war. It was just a huge WTF for me. Up north, the civil war was something you read about in history, but down there some of them were still fighting the civil war.

[cynatnite]

4. This is not a Southern problem. This is an AMERICAN problem! n/t

[Eric the Reddish]

67. I agree, Sir

There are plenty of gun-worshipping states outside of Dixie. Indiana is a great (which means disturbing!) example.

[Hoyt]

5. Guns were how they intimidated minorities.

Go in almost any gun store in South, and racists will be drooling over exact weapons Lanza used.

[apocalypsehow]

7. I've read that the biggest selling book at gun shows is "The Turner Diaries," the racist novel

that describes a genocidal war a group of white supremacists wages against the U.S. government and wins. In the novel, the white supremacists are supposed to be the good guys.

It surprises me little that that racist piece of trash is the largest selling piece of reading material at gun shows...

[Hoyt]

8. Hey, a lot of gun lovers have leather bound copies on their coffee table and a dogeared

One in the bathroom.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

10. Yet much of the existing gun control laws are both racist and classist in impact

No all the racism is in the south. I remember the riots in Boston...

[Hoyt]

15. Nah, restrictions must be applied equally, "professor." Will you cancel your gun classes tomorrow

out of respect for the harm guns have done? Or will you just be showing another group how to shoot people?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

16. Actually they are not today and never have been. Gun control laws have always been applied in a

discriminatory manner. Even today in Bloomberg's NYC a rich white person can get a gun, a poor or minority not so much.


Not teaching this weekend and your support of making it so GLBTs can be bashed more easily is noted.

[Fawke Em]

14. Go to ANY gun store ANYWHERE and you'll see the same thing.

Gun lust and racism isn't a providence of the South.

[pipoman]

6. Montana or Vermont anyone?

Cultural stereotyping..so Democratic, eh?

[Hoyt]

9. You are right, gun lovers/abusers everywhere are a problem.

[pipoman]

11. Too late, you've already revealed yourself in this thread..

[Hoyt]

13. Southern gun lovers are particularly vile. Where do you practice your love of guns?

But make no mistake, those who covet guns AND promote them need to reassess their priorities.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

17. More regional bigotry...how sweet

[Hoyt]

19. Another Gungeoneer hoping to deflect discussion from guns

[ProgressiveProfessor]

27. I am not the one bringing up strawmen or being a regional bigot

[apocalypsehow]

41. Yep - and par for the course from our Gungeoneer "professor"* at that. n/t

*( )

[cynatnite]

18. So, you're a worse person if you're from the south and you love your guns...

but not so much if you're from the NE or back west.

Nice piece of logic you got going there.

[Hoyt]

20. Look genius, I'm saying white southern gun nuts are racists. I consider that bad.

Apparently you don't.

[cynatnite]

22. No, since I'm in the South and I know a few gun nuts who are NOT racist...

I say that the genius brain certainly doesn't reside in your head.

The fact of the matter is that there are racists who don't own guns. There are gun nuts who are not racists. And there are some gun nuts in the South who are racist.

The three are not mutually exclusive, genius.

[Hoyt]

24. I'm in South too and grew up with those miserable jerks.

And they are friggin racists, and particularly vile. I don't associate with them. And yes, I think they are more vile on average than racists from other parts of country (who are also vile). There are reasons federal troops had to be sent here to get minority kids in state colleges. If you can't accept that, it's your problem not mine.

[cynatnite]

28. Maybe in your world that's the case, but the entire South is not like that...

There are plenty of progressives, atheists, humanists, and more where I live. In my office where I work, we have 1 racist nutjob who is barely tolerated by the majority.

You are going to find a lot of good people in the South, just like you will find some bad as well. It's very tragic that can't see the good that does exist here.

[Hoyt]

29. Never said there isn't good - but there is a lot of bad among racist gun lovers.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

71. A racist nut job wouldn't be tolerated at all in my workplace

Why are you bragging?

[cynatnite]

72. I'm bragging?

[renie408]

23. Am I OK? I am white and a southerner, but I don't like guns.

Does that mean I am NOT racist or does being from the South mean I am automatically racist?

I always get confused. Probably because I am a Southerner and we are all so slow.

[Hoyt]

25. See 24.

[spanone]

12. indiana, chock full o gun nutz

[NealK]

89. Also:

Alaska is pretty cold for a southern state.

[renie408]

21. I live in the Deep South and have my whole life.

I have never, not once, heard someone I know personally in 'real life' talk about needing their guns to protect them from the government.

They want their guns cause they like guns and their Daddy had a gun and they were raised with guns and it's their RIGHT to have a gun and they will tell you all about THAT, but the only place I have heard the 'I need my gun to defend me from government' thing is on the internet.

[Berserker]

30. Please don't

Try to defend the South they hate everyone in here with a gun get it?

[renie408]

36. Oh, I am on 'their' side when it comes to the guns thing, sorry.

I just think trying to pigeonhole Southerners by saying that they want guns because we are all racist or scared of the government is ridiculous. I would imagine that Southern gun owners like guns for the same reasons that Western gun owners and Northern gun owners do.

They have small penises.







Just kidding. It's really because they are all short.



ARRGGHHH!! I can't stop myself....

[old guy]

80. I live in NW Wisconsin, very red area, and I have heard my neighbors

say they need weapons to protect them from the government. This is not just a Southern attitude or just an internet thing, this is life in America.

[PM Martin]

26. These morons are worthless

http://nracountry.com/

[kwassa]

31. This is wrong. There might be more people like this in the south, but ...

this demographic can be found all over the country, particularly in conservative rural areas, which really means all rural areas in the US.

and there are many southerners who have nothing in common with this gun culture.

It would really correspond to tea party strongholds.

[WooWooWoo]

32. not really, the south seems to love guns because guns are entertainment and the south is boring

really boring.

[renie408]

37. HA!! What do you know??

Have you ever been cow tipping or sat on the water tower on a Saturday night? Have you ever been line dancing at the rec center or swimming at the water hole?


Me, either. And I have lived in the South my whole life. It is no more or less boring than anywhere else.

Water hole? Ew.

[WooWooWoo]

40. i can say with utter certainty

Kentucky and Tennessee are more boring than New York.

[renie408]

42. Oh, well...Tennessee....

[antigone382]

76. You just didn't meet the right people while you were down there.

I'll take pickin' around a bonfire in the woods any day over a night at the club. Tennessee is currently about the most ridiculous state in the union but I love the people, I love the scenery, and I love the history.

(and yes, I know that New York has some absolutely gorgeous scenery as well, and a lot of lovely people).

[Fawke Em]

79. I'm willing to bet Nashville is more fun than Albany.

New York City is an international city and not comparable to nearly any other city in the country with the exception of Atlanta, Miami and Los Angeles.

I live in Tennessee and between the Smokies to my east and Nashville and Memphis to the west, I not only find things to do, but I find things to do that don't require guns - which is good, since I don't own any.

[WooWooWoo]

82. Nashville gets boring really quick

but it is rather impossible to compare any other city to NYC.

[Sissyk]

46. Ha!

Ive done the water tower and fire tower on a Saturday night, and been swimming in an old rock quarry! Awesome!! haha.

You should try it.

Tennnessee here

[renie408]

49. I am kind of a weenie about cooties in water.

I don't even like swimming in lakes. Never have. I mean, I have swum in a lake, but that first plunge in always creeps me out a little bit. Anything small enough to be classified as a 'water hole' would just gross me out.

[Separation]

85. Moving back there within the next year

Ill be retiring here in the next year. The family and I are going to be heading up that way. We are already actively looking for land to buy (5-10 acres) in the Central to Eastern part of the state. Not a prepper, not gonna be building a bunker. But will probably have a chicken coup, a goat or two (if the wife allows this one), and definately a vegetable garden. We are tired of the hustle and bustle of city life and are ready for some quite time.

[Sissyk]

94. Hi soon to be Neighbor!

I'm in southern middle of the state. Have 6-1/2 acres so I know what you mean.

[Zoeisright]

35. And they're fucking delusional.

The John Wayne/Clint Eastwood fetishes these insane dolts have is just astonishing. They would not have a chance in hell of standing up to the US Army. I wish the south had seceded. I'm just glad they finally don't matter anymore in the electoral college.

[Sissyk]

50. Hi Zoe!

Where are you from?

Just so you know, I am in Tennessee. Love JW and CE movies! JW movies came to the drive in about 4 years ago, CE last year! I swear, I didn't know about those big cities until I saw them on the big screen! Lawdy, you mean all these hillbillies here that said they are in the US Army are really not? Whut they doing?

insane dolt, signing off.

[Separation]

38. Nothing like facts to cloud an argument.

http://usliberals.about.com/od/Election2012Factors/a/Gun-Owners-As-Percentage-Of-Each-States-Population.htm

6 of the top 10 states with more gun owners aren't in the south. Gotta love that regional bigotry. Racists are everywhere, not just in the south.

[fujiyama]

43. I once went to gun show. It was a fascinating experience.

I went to one in SC - in the heart of the bible belt and the kind of place where God and guns are probably two of the most prominent components of the culture. I'm a brown person, which made the whole experience particularly weird and I do recall a few funny looks. It was very crowded. I recall seeing a lot of anti-government nuttiness, anti-Obama stuff, a bunch of those "Infidel" bumper stickers in Arabic (because you need guns to shoot the scary brown terrorists), and booths for various conservative organizations (including the John Birch society, where the old guy actually was really trying to be friendly - I doubt most there even know who they are and I didn't know they were still around - LOL). None of this really surprised me or even bothered me. Of course there were also lots of confederate flags all over the place (this is the south after all and it's a freakin' gun show) - but the only thing that I'll admit made me uncomfortable was the Turner Diaries on sale at one of the booths, knowing the infamous history behind that book.

I went with a friend of mine that is definitely a gun nut. He's a really nice guy - the kind that when he's drunk, he'll buy drinks for half the bar. But he loves his guns and he entertains all sorts of nutty conspiracy theories.

We have to admit that this paranoia isn't changing anytime soon. It's most visible on the right, but I think it goes well beyond ideology. There's plenty of that on this site and among other liberals. I think it's this fear and paranoia that keeps the gun culture as strong as it is. Nothing is going to change that anytime soon. In this country someone is always trying to get you and your family - whether it's a terrorist (always brown, and always Muslim), some criminal (almost always black or hispanic) or the government which wants to tax you and attack your values. But it's not all racism. The same obsession with guns cuts across racial lines. While I noticed more whites at show, I saw several Hispanics, Blacks, and Asians there - and I know several that share the fascination with firearms. With almost as many guns in circulation out there as there are people, it's a very well armed society. The funny thing is, the percent that owns guns has actually fallen, but the twenty % or so that own guns, own plenty.

I've also been to a firing range on a Saturday. It was packed. I'm from MI, a state where hunting is very popular (not something I've ever participated in or have wanted to), but I'd never seen quite the same affinity for guns as I do down here.

[upi402]

44. Their pea-shooters vs. big gubmint M1 Abrahams tank

:doh:

[kentauros]

88. Or just ONE of these:

[Moses2SandyKoufax]

45. The south loves guns for the same reason they love:

right to work laws, willful ignorance, and many other regressive social policies.

They apparently take great pride in being a political backwater, and the most ass-backwards place in the industrialized world.

[Separation]

61. I guess you won't be getting a Christmas card

from Jimmy Carter this year. Nice regional bigotry ya got going there.

[Moses2SandyKoufax]

62. Prove me wrong.

The American South is the epicenter of almost all regressive policies and most of this nation's societal ills. A common dodge among southerners is to point out the fact that bad politicians are not limited to the south, which is true, however, bad politicians aren't exceptions in the south, they're the rule.

[Separation]

63. Ok

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x482391

Tell you what, why don't you tell us why you think the south is full of racist, bigoted, backwater dumbfucks? I mean its pretty clear you do. I'm curious as to why.

Last I checked, the last 4 mass shooting were north of the Mason-Dixon Line. Does that make me think all northerner a are a bunch of crazy gun nuts hell bent on murder? Using your logic I would say yes. Thankfully I'm not you.

[Moses2SandyKoufax]

64. I can accurately determine that the south is full of racist, bigoted, backwater dumbfucks

due to the mouth-breathing, turd-eating, dip-shits the region continually sends to Washington and their respective state capitals.

[Separation]

69. Your bigotry is shining through

Sean Hannity- California
Rush- New York
Bushes- Maine/Connecticut
Ashcroft- Missouri
Cheney- Wyoming?
Carlson- California
O'Reilly- The Westbury section of Levittown, Massachusetts
James Dobson- Colorado
Michele Bachmann- Minnesota/Iowa
Sarah Palin - Alaska

Just admit your a bigot and we can be done with these reindeer games. I hold no ill will towards any of these states for producing these people.


Definition of bigoty: a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially: one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance".[1] Bigotry may be based on real or perceived characteristics, including age, disability, dissension from popular opinions, economic status, ethnicity, gender identity, language, nationality, political alignment, race, region, religious or spiritual belief, sex, or sexual orientation. Bigotry is sometimes developed into an ideology or world view.

[Go Vols]

78. +1

[RC]

81. I can state for a fact the Missouri is not a shining beacon of Liberalism.

The Civil War from the Confederate viewpoint is a big business here.

[renie408]

47. Why does the DU love bashing the South?

It is not as if every aspect of southern life that is vilified here is not found all over the country. As stated upthread, six of the ten most gun owning states are not even IN the South. And the most recent famous mass shootings have occurred in Colorado, Wisconsin, Arizona and Connecticut. That drivel that someone wrote about right to work laws...they have those in states outside of the South. Racism does not seem to respect regional boundaries. And Matthew Shepard was killed in Wyoming.

Yes, the South has issues it must deal with. But so does every region and state in America. Why does the DU so love bashing the South?

[renie408]

48. I mean, can't we all just agree to hate Kansas?

[Sissyk]

52. Kansas?

But what about Dorothy? Can we like her?

[Separation]

58. I was gonna say the Dutch

But will settle for Kansas.

[renie408]

59. I LOVE THAT LINE!!

That is one of our favorite lines to repeat from any movie!! Every time anybody says anything sweeping about hating stuff, somebody always tacks on..."And the Dutch!"

[Michigan Alum]

66. What movie?? I'm of Dutch descent......

[Separation]

70. Austin Powers in Goldmember

[RC]

84. I tried that and got jumped on.

I was raised in Kansas, till I was 15. I managed to not return, untill two years ago, when I moved to KCMO.
North Dakota is Liberal compared to either Missouri or Kansas.

[k2qb3]

56. It's so easy, and so much fun!

I'm a recent transplant to SC (from Seattle) so the culture shock is pretty intense, there's a lot of good and a lot of bad down here, mostly all wrapped up in the same people, like everywhere else.

Far as the gun culture goes, it's less intense here than it was in WA, more good 'ol boys shootin' shit for fun at the range or hunting and less of the serious vibe that you run into a lot in the PNW.

As for racism, yeah there's more. There's a lot more contact and a lot more history down here that complicates matters for everyone. Racial matters are easier up north, but the really virulent racists tend to prefer places where there are fewer minorities rather than more.

[renie408]

99. Yeah, that is kind of my experience with the local gun culture.

Welcome to SC, BTW.

Every single person I know has a gun. They are really kind of casual about their guns. Their Daddy's had guns, they were raised shootin' stuff and they LIKE shootin' stuff. Seriously, a friend of ours' 14 year old son shot a deer out of his bedroom window awhile back. They were real proud.

Personally, I think it is crazy. I think racism is complicated here. It does have roots and history and...layers? I don't know how to describe it. Southerners are a little xenophobic. So, you can have a racist white person and a black person (both Southerners) in a room and the white person and black person might not speak to each other and do that polite, Southern kind of 'looking right through each other' thing...until a Yankee or Hispanic walks in. Then they are best friends. True Southerners bond together against an 'outsider'. I am not being cutesy or funny. I see it happen time and time again. It happened just this morning in the waiting room at my mother's doctors' office. Three older black women and two older white women sat there and ignored each other right until the Hispanic mother walked in and her kid started running around. Then suddenly all five of them were raising their eyebrows at each other and in about thirty seconds they were comparing notes on child rearing. Also, older Southerners have a weird version of racism that will make you just CRINGE. My mother does it all the time. She sees nothing wrong whatsoever with the blacks. Why, she was raised by Maisie and just loved her to pieces. She will go out of her way to speak graciously to 'blacks' whenever she gets the chance just to prove she isn't racist. Keep in mind my mother is 82 years old and was born and raised in Charleston, SC. She isn't a bad person, just a product of her time.

I love it here. I love all my crazy Southern friends, I like stopping for funerals, I never get impatient if I am going down the back road to our farm and there are two cars stopped in the road. I like that I can always count on getting into a lengthy conversation with the cashier at the Food Lion or that the girl at the CVS that I do not know from Adam's off ox doesn't have a problem giving me advice on the hair color I picked out the other day. I like saying things like 'Adam's off ox'.

I hate it here. I hate the gun culture and the racism and the homophobia. I hate the slightly paranoid culture of 'we vs. them' and the fact that there always seems to be a new and different 'them'. I also really hate chiggers, but what do you do?

It's complicated.

[Skip Intro]

57. Some DUers are full of hatred and bigotry. nt

[reformist2]

73. I love the Hee Haw type of bashing - good natured, but with a grain of truth.

[Nye Bevan]

51. Yeah, what's with those gun nuts in Southern states like Connecticut? (nt)

[RKP5637]

53. Yep!!! It defies logic, but not stupidity and willful ignorance. n/t

[Skip Intro]

55. Sandy Hook is where again? Aurora is where again? Sorry,

didn't mean to mix fact with propaganda.

[ohheckyeah]

60. Wow - I've never heard anybody here in the south talk about the totalitarian government.

The southern gun owners I know all live rural which is why they own guns. My brother carries a gun to his mail box. Why? There are bears that hang out between his house and the mail box. The only animal I know of that my dad killed was a fox which was out in broad daylight in the yard where his 3 small kids were playing. It kept creeping closer and closer to where we were playing. Fortunately, it wasn't rabid, but if it had bit one of us they wouldn't have known that until AFTER we had to go through painful shots for rabies. I'm damn glad he had a gun.

[LeftInTX]

65. I'm in Texas

Home of Gov. Rick Perry who is into heavy duty firearms including grenade launchers. Perry shot a coyote and bragged about it. May seem like nothing, but I think it was animal cruelty.

It is also the home of Louis Gohmert, the guy who said the teachers should be armed with M-4's.

My state is full of nuts.

[Dawgs]

75. Not an excuse to post your generalizing BS. n/t

[cordelia]

68. It's pretty fucking sick that the author of this and you

would use this piece - during this tragedy, this fucking tragedy - as an excuse to display your outright bigotry against a region.

And you drew out some of the other ignorant, intolerant, small-minded bigots just like yourself.

Proud?

[Dawgs]

74. The only thing that defies logic is posting something that bashes the South after what happened..

..in the North.

[EastTennesseeDem]

77. Connecticut is not in the south.

So...what is the underlying point in this?

That as much progress as is made, we will never be able to secure a particularly ignorant portion of this nation?

I'm not being intentionally obtuse or confrontational; I'm just wondering.

If that's what you're saying, that's fair and I get it I guess. I'd like to think that we (the south) can change; a lot of people call me naive for believing that, but it gets me up in the morning. If this tragedy had occurred in the south, this post would make a lot more sense than I feel like it does.

But I do honestly feel like that, if that was your or the author's point, it should be spelled out a little more. As it stands, it seems like a pretty gratuitous, opportunistic manner of taking a shot at the south. For all the south's flaws, I don't see the role it played in this. Constricting this issue to one region of this country is not conducive to good of the whole.

[Jamastiene]

83. Did the Connecticut owner of the guns used

in the shooting buy the guns in the south or something? The shooter wasn't born, raised, nor did he live in the south. The owner of the guns, or at least some of the guns based on what we know to be fact at this time, was a northerner as well. But, somehow this is the south's fault? I must be missing some major piece of news that corroborates your claims.

[Harmony Blue]

86. I live in Florida

and most of the people I have spoken with say they need guns to protect themselves from the government and it is important for sport/hunting too.

Anyone that has lived in the south and has never heard of the pro-gun, anti government sentiment is being extremely misleading.

The phrase: "The South will Rise again" sums up this sentiment.

[WI_DEM]

87. It's a national problem, after all this latest incident was in New England.

[srican69]

90. excuse me!!! the government has laser guided bombs and nuclear weapons...

And you have to be delusional to think that the government wants to'get you'

And foolish to think..that all the guns you can buy is going to stop them in their tracks if they decide to

[obamanut2012]

91. Didn't realize Newton, CT, was in the South

Thanks for letting me know.

The regional bigotry on DU is as appalling as it is often clueless.

[Bake]

95. Connecticut, home of the Confederacy.

Apparently.

You're spot on about the regional bigotry. I'm amazed that some are using this tragedy to bash the South.

Bake

[obamanut2012]

97. I saw this OP and was like wtf

Earlier last week, we had a shooting in Portland, OR. I had no idea that was part of the South.

[Bake]

98. Haters gonna hate.

There's a lot of that on DU these days.

Bake

[efhmc]

92. Just love generalizations.

[Dems to Win]

93. Southerners and other gun-nuts love guns much more than they love children and other human beings.

Dead children go visit Jesus in the sky, so why worry about them? No need to create policies to prevent their deaths, no need to protect them from being shot 6 times in one second -- they'll be happy in heaven with Jesus!! Praise the Lord!