This is Obama's Finest Hour.

[reformist2]

I have never been more impressed.

[Historic NY]

1. Something in my eye..

[tridim]

2. This country is changing. Big time.

[kardonb]

63. change...

we have a truly wonderful president in Barack Obama , who cares for all of us . His Family is an example to us all.

[reformist2]

64. His re-election was huge. We are a center-left nation now.

[alcibiades_mystery]

3. He is the right man to put an end to the gun culture and its madness

That was a speech that will be studied in universities for a hundred years.

[bakpakr]

5. And the great thing is,

Those were his own words, not some speech writers. I heard it reported that he alone wrote the speech.

[calimary]

60. Welcome to DU, bakpakr! I heard that, too.

It felt like one from the heart. And it said a mouthful! I can hear the yowlers and baggers and whiners and pearl-clutchers yammering about politicizing the night. He did nothing of the sort. I think we should change the gun laws in the memory of those babies who were gunned down, and their teachers and guardians that suffered that fate too. If we can change and toughen the gun laws, then those innocent dead will not have died in vain. It will bring more meaning to their deaths - and what those deaths catalyzed. Maybe others will live because of what we did in response to their murders.

[Rhiannon12866]

72. When this president speaks, you can tell it comes from the heart.

I agree that he makes the decisions, not the speech writers. Welcome to DU, bakpakr! It's great to have you with us!

[Cha]

10. I just saw this Tweet..

Michael Cohen

@speechboy71 I will be using that speech in my speechwriting class as the perfect example of how to deliver a tribute speech

[lindysalsagal]

33. Exactly what I was thinking. Only it will be digital and live forever.

It will be some solace for the parents of lost children. But not enough solace to minimize their pain.

[Bonobo]

4. Yes, impressive....

words.

But this President has been horrible on gun control and words are just words.

I was impressed as well and then I shook myself awake and reminded myself that it is also par for the course for him to say words that sound progressive and revolutionary and then to go firmly to the safe center with his actual actions.

[joshcryer]

8. He's not a dictator. "With the power of the office I hold."

He can only do so much.

Expect people to go out tomorrow and start buying up more guns.

Because American culture is fucked.

[Bonobo]

14. There is much he can do, particularly foreign policy.

And the US foreign policy is one based on fear and fear-based aggression.

Also, it is premised on the idea that it is acceptable to kill innocents if you think it may contribute to your own security... but no, it is worse than that because no thinking person could believe that bombing other countries could increase our long-term security against those who hate and despise us for our international crimes of war.

So why do we continue to bomb and drone and invade? If it is politics, it is unforgivable. If it is ignorance, it is just sad. If it is indifference to others suffering, it is damnable.

And THAT is the example that Obama sets for the culture with HIS, yes HIS foreign policy.

And that is just foreign policy. His failure to even secure the same gun control that existed under Republican presidents is unforgivable and you should not be so quick to do so, Josh. If you are the progressive you constantly claim to be, that is.

[joshcryer]

22. We're talking about a domestic issue and you're mentioning foreign policy?

That has nothing to do with domestic policy.

Of course Obama, as Commander in Chief, has absolute power foreign policy-wise.

So drop the strawman please.

[Bonobo]

23. They are not unconnected. Culture is culture. nt

[joshcryer]

24. America's MIC is not supported by American culture.

[Bonobo]

25. American's, children and adult alike are influenced

byt the behavior of the country and model their own lives after it.

The President and his decisions about how he treats other nations are, of course, an example for how children and adults treat others.

Therefore, threats are dealt with by violence because that is what we do as a nation.

I am surprised this needs to be explained to you -or are you just being willful?

[joshcryer]

26. You're trying to form a connection to MIC and American culture when there is none.

American culture is influenced more by the MSM than it is by the MIC. The MIC is wholly separate, hidden in lobbying groups, in special interest groups, and generally opposed by the American population as a whole.

We do not look at the MIC as influential, we look down upon it as a waste of resources and generally immoral. The MIC has its hands in the pockets of our politicians, and we have yet to fully wrestle away their control.

[Bonobo]

28. I believe that YOU do not.

But you are not representative of many, many people who DO look to the military (and the President) for their model of behavior.

[joshcryer]

30. American culture does not "look to the military for their model of behavior."

If that were the case violence would be at an all time high, with two wars, and a drone war in several states happening all at once (at one point we were involved in 3 wars, which you will remind me).



The statistics simply disagree with your simplistic world view.

[Bonobo]

31. BTW, I did not start the OP to WIN this argument.

I started it to get more opinions on the subject because this is what an OP is for.

Neither your opinion or mine can be proved with simplistic graphs open to hundreds of interpretations.

You are grasping now and avoiding a truly obvious observation about culture and how influence works.

To suggest that one does not affect the other is really absurd and doesn't require anything beyond common sense to agree with.

Josh, as always, I just don't agree with you.

[joshcryer]

32. It's a straw man, you should've never said it to begin with.

You just wanted to deflect from the fact that Obama is not a dictator and even in his speech he said "within the power of the office I hold."

You're the one who made a pretty straightforward and easily testable statement.

The FBI keeps very good violence statistics. We also know, from basic reading of the news, that America in the last decade has been involved in quite a few wars foreign-policy wise. It's very very easy to test what you claim.

[Bonobo]

34. It is NOT a strawman. It is an obvious observation about culture.

You think you can support your silly claim that there is no connection with statistics as if it is not a complex issue -as if a thousand other things could not be at work such as the rise of law enforcement power, etc.

Silliness.

[joshcryer]

35. Yeah? Then why is the discussion about foreign and not domestic policy?

I mean your original post was wholly domestic.

It's clear you've successfully deflected and now you're in denial that your argument was faulty on the onset because it was easily testable.

[Bonobo]

36. No, I am just discussing two things.

On the issue of domestic policy, I said that Obama has been a terrible leader on gun control. That is an argument I am willing to have and I think most people would agree with me that are not apologists for the gun industry or in-denial, blind, apologists for the president. Many presidents have faced opposition and yet still voiced strong, unyielding positions on issues. Obama has gotten failing grades from gun control advocates overwhelmingly. Rachel Maddow thinks so as do I.


On the issue of foreign policy, yes, I drew a connection and I still support the idea. As a student of cultural anthropology and someone with deep experience examining cultural issues from an international cross-cultural perspective, I feel confident in saying that culture is a blanket, a quilt that is woven of all the strands that make it up. One cannot pull out one strand and claim it is not part of the culture as you are attempting. The MIC IS America whether you like it or not and it DOES influence people. Just take a look at the millions of military families and tell me that it does not.

[joshcryer]

38. Yes, Obama sucks on gun control. He came out and made a statement on it.

You think the statement is grand but you don't think he'll do anything. I pointed out that his power is limited and he, in his own speech, conditioned it on "the power of the office I hold." Simple stuff, really.

Then, of course, while the original post was about gun control, you turn the tables, typically, because you know that the only place that Obama does hold a lot of power is foreign-policy-wise. So to salvage your poorly thought out argument, you make an even worse argument that is easily tested by looking into the data.

Meanwhile, Obama got out of Iraq, spent less than a billion in Libya with no lives lost, has killed 200x fewer civilians with his drone war than Bush with his full scale invasions, and has promised to get us out of Afghanistan.

The MIC does not represent American culture. Many military people are against the MIC when they get out. I work with them, I know this from personal experience, but ask any military guy here on DU. Hell, ask any military guy on the internet on any internet forum you can find. I'd bet 9 out of 10 times they'll say they're against the MIC. So please...

[Bonobo]

39. Glad you admit he sucks on gun control. That is what I said first. nt

[joshcryer]

40. I think he changed his stance.

I do not think it is "impressive words." I think it is a substantiative position change.

I simply understand the conditions on which his position can have an effect.

Which is "within the power of the office he holds."

[Bonobo]

44. Then I look forward to his non-stop campaign to make sensible gun control laws.

I expect he will go on a whirlwind tour talking about the issue and we will find him, next month, doing the same speeches.
Because someone as committed as he seemed in that speech just wouldn't be able to rest, I am sure, until he has make an actual change.

Let's check in in one month from now and see how many more speeches he makes about gun control, how many phone cals he makes to influential congressmen and senators.

Governors, Dem and Republican by the way, are overwhelmingly for gun control. I expect he will be enlisting them as allies in this, his most difficult and uphill of political fights that his is about to engage in.

Right?

[joshcryer]

46. You got that from that speech?

He barely addressed gun control before. His "stance" wasn't even a stance. Straddling the line.

Now he's basically saying "we must address it."

He will not go full on nilly willy campaigning against it.

He will set up a committee, and legislation will be drafted, and it will be meager at best.

And it won't pass.

[Bonobo]

49. Wow, we agree again!

He will do as I said.

His soaring rhetoric will turn into lukewarm half-hearted committee creation so it looks like he is doing something.

And, as you said, there will be no change.

Because, after all, he is no dictator and people like you do not demand any real change.

If he wanted the change he claims is necessary, he WOULD go into full-on campaign mode. But he won't.

And THAT is not because he is not a dictator.

[joshcryer]

56. Yeah, because the House would do what he wanted, ever.

Please. The Republicans have safe seats because America is a pro-gun culture. They aren't worried about voting down the legislation that will be drafted. Hell, if he did run around campaigning it would fuel their narcissism and they'd get off on his futile actions (wasting effort where it could be better spent elsewhere).

[Bonobo]

57. I knew you would find a way to excuse the invariable inaction that will follow.

As Yoda said, "there is no try."

It's funny though, because for all your arguing, you essentially have agreed that everything I said is true.

And now, I must say goodbye, Josh Cryer, it has been amusing.

[joshcryer]

65. I tend to not be very disagreeable.

It's the nuances that people can't accept.

[Bonobo]

67. Irony = someone denying military's place in influencing culture talks of "nuance". nt

[joshcryer]

68. I made no such absolute statement.

And you know it.

9/10 is not the same as "no influence whatsoever."

The key is substance. How substantial is the influence? Low. No data shows what you claimed.

[Bonobo]

70. Joshcryer: "American culture does not "look to the military for their model of behavior."

That IS an absolute statement.

Don't get lost backtracking.



?w=595

[joshcryer]

71. Right.

Backed by the nuances of American culture which you ignore when you say that American culture does "look to the military for their model of behavior." I was refuting your absolute statement with my observation of American cultural nuances.

[humbled_opinion]

48. If he campaigns for gun control

like he campaigned for President than we have a very good shot at actually getting something accomplished, but sadly I follow your thought about the words not seeming to meet his actions. I don't think anyone will ever seriously say Obama was not a very accomplished orator, but this situation requires more than words and it will take serious leadership, because it a serious challenge to his very legacy. I think much can be done not simple assault weapons bans but seriously decreasing the number of guns in circulation in the U.S... but the case must be made with evidence and facts and we cannot fall victim to the pro gun narratives of ... ."Guns don't kill people, people kill people" or "Guns are already serverely regulated and hard to get" or the loathesome "More guns would mean less crime"....

We need a campaign, a ribbon, a bracelet.... "END GUN VIOLENCE NOW"

[Bonobo]

53. Thank you...

If he is as serious about making such an important change as he advocated for in that speech, he should campaign at least ONE TENTH of as aggressively as he did for re-election.

ONE TENTH.

Will he? No.

The only question then is why. I leave you all to answer that for yourselves.

[KittyWampus]

69. LOL! If we looked to the military for our model of behavior we'd be a socialist country.

The military is essentially socialist in nature.

[humbled_opinion]

75. So what is your point?

The military have great healthcare, are never homeless, get a paycheck and never want for food....

[NewJeffCT]

17. There has already been a rush at gun stores

across the country.

[joshcryer]

21. Expect it to increase.

[SidDithers]

47. pffftt...nt

Sid

[George II]

59. He doesn't enact legislation - why is it someone always finds something negative to say??

[bluestate10]

6. The finest hour will be getting laws passed on gun control. I am a big Obama supporter. nt

[craigmatic]

43. I agree

[democrattotheend]

7. What did he say?

I got a phone call when it was about to start. What did he say?

[proud2BlibKansan]

16. He spoke out about gun control.

He said we can't wait to do anything. We must solve this problem. And at the end, he read the names of the children who died. It was really beautiful.

[humbled_opinion]

50. Sorry but I didn't hear a single word

in the phrase gun control, but I as I already got blasted on another post I guess it really wasn't the time or place to talk specifics about how to deal with the situation... but please don't make it out to be something that it wasn't.

[Kablooie]

74. No. He said we must do more to protect children.

Not one word about specifics.
Only generalities.

It sounded great but contained very little substance.

[rivegauche]

76. it was hardly the time to discuss gun control bills.

He was there to console the community, not bring up new legislation.

[Doctor_J]

80. but proud2blibkansan said he DID discuss control

which is it?

[Little Star]

29. Someone put up a video of the speech in V&M. Make sure to watch it. He was fantastic.

[frazzled]

9. It was both unexpected, and remarkable

Unexpected because we were told beforehand that he would not address any of the politics that attached to the incident, but talk about those who were lost.

Remarkable because he in the end did, and in doing so showed a tremendous amount of courage and eloquence.

I sensed that this incident has produced a seismic shift in this man. He has for decades cared much about violence and has done many things to try to address it, from the videotaping of interrogations by the Chicago police to advocacy for gun control laws. But on the national level, I don't believe until now that he has found the political will to address the really big issues head on.

Tonight was a clear signal that this has been moved to the front of his agenda: that, as he said, if we can't do something about this, about the violence, then we really can't do anything. It was truly remarkable.

[sufrommich]

11. This is my President. nt

[Marrah_G]

12. I think so too

And words need to be followed by actions. I believe him when he says he will work to change what is broken. It's up to all of us to lean heavily on congress to work with him.

[BeeBee]

13. When he named the children,

I lost it.

RIP

[Lady Freedom Returns]

18. Did you guys get a look at his eyes?

There is something burning behind them!
You know, I think this is the 4th. time he went to speak at a event due to this kind of violence. Wonder what is going on back at the White House right now? Some midnight oil burning that is not related to the cliff?

[humbled_opinion]

55. I really hope so...

because what possibly will he be able to say when he goes to the fifth one of these things because nothing got done?.... We heard similar rhetoric after Tuscan, after aurora, etc... It is way past time for concrete action.... no more talk.

[rufus dog]

20. I agree

Most of the other speeches were to us, those that agree with him. This was a speech calling out those who disagree with him, those who believe the RW lies.

[Little Star]

27. Yes it is!

[joanbarnes]

37. Too bad he has to keep making these speeches.

[craigmatic]

41. All he did was make a speech and comfort families. He didn't propose new gun laws.

[democrattotheend]

51. He's not going to propose specific legislation at a funeral

That would be very inappropriate, IMO. But he sent a clear signal that he intends to take action on it. I don't see how he can back down now.

[ginnyinWI]

61. he could have meant guns, and he could have meant mental health.

And he could have meant both, or maybe even more options. Notice the mention of "mental health professionals" I think that was his phrase.

[Skip Intro]

42. This isn't about Obama! nt

[democrattotheend]

45. So? People can't give him credit for a great speech?

[underthematrix]

52. You're right. It's about us and our real

values. Do we really value children. Do we all believe it is our responsibility to protect them. These were the two fundamental questions PBO raised. I for one believe that we are responsible for the safety and wellbeing of our children, which is going to require some folks to change their mindset.

Oh and that whole speech thang PBO was doing? That's called leadership. As president, that's his job.

[sasha031]

54. I love our President

I believe things will change this time.

[calimary]

58. Me too! I have NEVER been more impressed with my President.

With this or ANY President, for that matter. I have never seen political courage like that in a President. He's got guts and class and smarts. I am SOOOOO pleased about this! Once again, we have a true leader, in every sense of the word! And his remarks tonight were words that needed to be said, tonight, and on the heels of EVERY one of these horrendous gun massacres. I think as a nation we've started to realize that we've had ENOUGH of this shit. I hope this is the straw that finally breaks the gun lobby's back.

GOBAMA!!!!!! You ROCK, Mr. President!!! So proud to have voted for you again!

[llmart]

62. I think this was President Obama's JFK speech.......

akin to "ask not what your country can do for you". He is asking us to all do our part, whatever we can possibly do, big and small. We need to hold all congresspeople accountable from now on for their stances on guns and gun control. We need to not be the silent majority any longer. The gun worshippers have taken our country hostage and we need to take our country back from them.

[calimary]

73. That's a good way to put it. It was monumental. Could ignite a whole movement!

And it's a LOOOOOOONNNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGG time coming! Dear God, I hope this is the beginning of the end of the NRA's policy hostage hold. How many lives has it cost already?

[JudyM]

66. Best line: Are we prepared to say that such violence visited on our children year after year...

after year is somehow the price of our freedom?

Hit it on the head, he did.

[rivegauche]

77. Totally agree, that was the issue to me too. nt

[Eric the Reddish]

78. DURec

[Doctor_J]

79. Allow me to set the bar a little higher

If there is actually some action on the gun issue, and if he abandons some of his conservative/corporate positions for more populist ones, I will be more impressed.

[BainsBane]

81. That depends on what he does from here

If he is willing to take on the gun lobby. We need to help him change our culture of gun proliferation.