Hollywood?? WTF?

[kydo]

Yeah I know right wing talking points but come on it is violent movies and video games that caused this???? Bull poop! Morning Joe was just spewing this crap. While most of his Sandy Hook talk was heart felt I got mad when he lists the cause.

First is Hollywood, then mental health then the nra and guns. At least he includes the nra and guns but seriously? IMHO the order of cause of the problem is more this order. The NRA and Guns, Poor Mental Health Access, The 24 Cycle News Media (Mostly Faux Noise), Hollywood/entertainment industry.

[malaise]

1. Never forget that the NRA gave him top billing n/t

[rateyes]

3. He acknowledged that he got NRAs highest rating

and, basically said he was wrong.

[malaise]

68. Whatever

You can trust the likes of Scarborough - not me.

[kydo]

5. oh I know

thats why his little talk pissed me off even more. Already these people are trying to deflect blame to the liberals by blaming hollywood. In the 90's the right wing mocked liberals for trying to stem violence in movies and video games remember Tipper Gore?

And now they are trying to blame liberals and hollywood again. This is when you can really tell if something has changed in a person. If Joe's list would have been NRA and Guns followed by anything else I would have found a some respect for the guy. But nope he still has no balls, he still cowers to the nra.

The entertainment biz only reflects what is already happening in society. But I do find the news outlets to have more influence on peoples fears then a movie or a game. Violence in games and movies is symptom of a way bigger problem.

[rateyes]

2. If you dont think the video games contribute to this carnage

you arent thinking straight. Its a mix of everything that makes this culture violent.

[kydo]

6. No I think violent games (all games from kill kill games to football)

Have a part to play in all this. But the NRA and it's gun culture have way more blame.

[rateyes]

7. And, he said as much.

[kydo]

13. But its buried

When he starts his blame list its not the NRA and Guns first and it should be. Its Hollywood first. That is my gripe. At least he is including the nra in the mess. But now I'm sure on that other network these too will be the talking points - It's Hollywood's fault. We will never get any meaningful control or mental health bills past if the repubs divert their flock to the evils of the liberal hollywood.

[rateyes]

14. I beg to differ,

he did not say it was Hollywood first...he, imo, laid blame at everyones feet, including his own.

[kydo]

26. then maybe you should go back and re-watch

Because he did say Hollywood first. At the end of his talk he lists the order and it was Hollywood and video games, then the nra.

When he started to talk and as his talk continued, yes he blamed the nra and yes he said he was wrong. I was stunned and happy. But then he closed with that list, liberal hollywood. I was like no no Joe you were so on the right track until the end. Yes Hollywood shares blame. Yes violent video games share blame. But if assault guns were not available to the extent that they are now this most current mass shooting would not have happened. Now would this kid have still tried this with a regular rifle or shot gun, or hand gun? Maybe. But it would not have reach the same amount of carnage.

This is why the first part of blame lays squarely on the nra. Everything else comes after.

Btw - I agree with you, Joe did lay blame on nra and himself. But he also still blamed the liberal hollywood before the nra at the end of his rant. He was mostly honest and that was refreashing. But until I hear him list the nra first, I don't have much faith that his brief moment of clarity will last, and soon he will regress back to his gun loving ways.

[rateyes]

49. Took your advice, and watched again..

he did not close with such a list

[kydo]

56. umm, yes he did

He re-said his rant at least once so far during Morning Joe. On his initial rant toward the end he lists the reasons and it started with Hollywood. Even in is second reading of his rant he puts hollywood first, I just watched it.

As soon as the right nutters get their talking points in order this will be the issue pushed by them and that is sad. It's sad because yes this plays a role, but access to military assault rifles and poor access to proper mental health care are much more major factors in this mess then hollywood. Joe and his right wing nra loving counterparts need to grasp that fact.

Yeah its great Joe made big steps over the weekend. So cool Joe you get a cookie for seeing what 53% of the US already knew. There I gave your precious Joe credit, a cookie, chocolate chip even. So now can we get back to the real issue, gun control and mental health services?

[BainsBane]

19. No, I think you misunderstand

Remember he is speaking as a conservative to conservatives. His rhetoric is structured for that purpose, which is why he mentioned video games first. We need to look at all contributing factors, though I completely agree with you that guns are number one.

This is a big deal for him to come out for gun control. Don't let the importance slip by you because he doesn't speak like a liberal. Hopefully he is the harbinger of more Republicans changing their minds.

[kydo]

28. which is exactly why I am upset

rhetoric rhetoric rhetoric rhetoric rhetoric rhetoric rhetoric rhetoric rhetoric I'm sick of rhetoric!

I know this rant was a big deal for Joe. And I do hope it is a harbinger of things to come from the repubs. But Joe is right-wing-lite. This talking point will be the right nutters spewing point and it will divert from the real issue.

[BainsBane]

31. I see no reason to assume that

How one structures an argument Is central to communication. Your anger at Scarborough is about how he constructed his argument, but he doesn't need to convince you. He is arguing to gun proponents. I could care less if he is right wing, as long as he is willing to do right by our nation's kids. That makes him far better than so-called Democrats who refuse to do anything about guns.

They are reading editorials from the Wall Street Journal and NYPost talking about gun control. We now live in a different world.

[kydo]

41. I hope you are right

but we are talking about the nra and fox news. The the nra and many fox viewers core beliefs are being attacked and they will come out fighting. Their idea to solve this is more guns. So their scapegoat will be hollywood. Even Joe, "right wing lite" couldn't completely stay away from that talking point.

I do hope you are right though, I really really do. And I hope their fixation on liberal hollywood as the biggest evil will pass but I do not hold much faith.

After all these are the same people that think Obama is coming for their guns. Give them something other then themselves to blame and many of them will take that out.

[renie408]

9. Whether WE like it or not, Joe is right. EVERYTHING has to change.

[kydo]

63. Joe was half right

Things have changed - yep he was right about that.

It was a big step for him to admit he was wrong. What is that saying 1step forward 3 steps back. He took on step forward with admitting he was wrong. Then promptly took three steps back by asserting Hollywood was more to blame then guns.

I like that he took the first step but he still as 11 more to go.

[PatSeg]

74. I agree with you

We need to look at our society as a whole and decide if we're willing to change.

I rarely agree with Joe Scarborough, but today he was sincere and insightful. I have heard a lot of really stupid things the last few days, but this was honest and heartfelt. I'm all for giving people credit when they deserve it regardless of their politics.

[ZM90]

4. Bullshit...video games didn't kill those kids.

Just so everyone knows I will fight any attempts at video game censorship no matter what side does it, I doubt I'll have to though as I am pretty sure video games are protected under the first amendment. So those here who want to get rid of video games or tone them down or whatever, yeah good luck with that, I'm pretty sure the backlash would be huge as there are millions of gamers.

[renie408]

8. And the gun nuts will tell you that guns don't kill people, either.

People kill people. And maybe people with big ass guns who spend their days playing violent video games and who have mental illnesses kill people.

We cannot wail about the culture of violence and then ignore games where you score points by shooting extremely life like images of human beings in the head.

[rateyes]

11. thank you.

[ZM90]

12. Video Games are not the problem though...

The problem is that this country does not have good access to mental health facilities and that it's way too easy to purchase a gun even for someone who is mentally ill. Look I was playing ZombiU the other day and blowing heads off of Zombies, I'm someone who is a person with Asperger's Syndrome, and guess what I didn't go on a killing spree.

[renie408]

16. Well, my friend, you need to find a new hobby. Just like the guy who shoots an AR-15

for shits and giggles on weekends. Because we had mental health problems 30 years ago and we didn't have nearly as many or as horrible incidences like last Friday. I would be willing to bet we had LESS access to mental health care 30 years ago than we do now.

You don't get it. EVERYTHING has to change. We are not fixing this country by just beefing up mental health care or just banning assault weapons or just downgrading the violence in media, games and movies. EVERYBODY HAS TO HAVE SOME SKIN IN THE GAME.

[ZM90]

22. Good luck banning video games....

Legislation that bans or censors video games in any way would declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court faster than anything and if it wasn't declared unconstitutional (haha yeah right) the backlash against the legislation would be so huge the legislation would most likely be repealed via the legislative branch anyway via pressure from millions of gamers.

[renie408]

33. Ya think??

Oh, I bet it might get a little farther today than it would have a month ago.

But no one has said anything about banning or censoring video games. You are just like a gun nut. Anybody gets a little too close to your pet fetish and you leap to the most drastic conclusion. There is a big difference between 'banning' and 'regulating'. And if you hadn't noticed, there is no distinction between which of our rights are more precious than others. Your 1st Amendment rights are as up for grabs as the gun nut's 2nd Amendment rights when it comes to the over arching right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. So, I imagine we will be looking at everything.

[ZM90]

40. Let me ask you a question. Can you mass murder real people with a video game controller or console?

Can you mass murder real people with a gun?

I think you know the answer and the difference.

[rateyes]

51. thats usually how it goes...

everyone has to change except me.

[ZM90]

55. What we need to do is make it much harder for mentally disturbed people to obtain guns

and we need to restore funding to our mental health system to detect those people. I have no problem with law abiding citizens who are mentally sane who keep their guns locked up having guns. Yes we need more regulations on guns for that sort of thing but we do need to overhaul the mental health system too.

[rateyes]

57. This is my last reply to you, since you are unable to keep

the discussion civil. No need to tell people who disagree to fuck off. Bye.

[renie408]

77. Friend, they have studies which prove increased violence after

repeated exposure to violent video games. Just because YOU enjoy it, doesn't mean it doesn't go on the table.

[KittyWampus]

79. This exemplifies how dense some DU'er can be. It's not about laws banning violent media

It's about YOU CHOOSING NOT BUYING IT.

Or not.

Your choice.

[rateyes]

27. bingo

[Kurska]

34. CENSORSHIP IS NOT A DEMOCRATIC PRINCIPLE, you sir can fuck right off.

I for one am not about to our common culture be dedicated by what you think is moral or right.

[rateyes]

54. Nobody is talking about censorship. People still have the freedom to put that shitty stuff on the

market. But, the freedom to sell and buy that bullshit stuff comes along with a freedom NOT to sell or buy that bullshit stuff. It does nothing but poison minds.

[theKed]

59. False.

Falsefalsefalse.
There is no correlation between video games and violence. And, in fact, they are quite good at improving motor development, among other things.

[rateyes]

62. true

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-first-clear-link-between-violent-video-games-and-hostility-2012-10

[theKed]

64. Still false.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1559-1816.1997.tb01800.x/abstract

" There was no significant relationship between the amount of time children spent on videogames and aggressive behavior...a positive relationship was found between time spent on videogames and a child's intelligence."

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2010/05/10/video-games-dont-cause-children-to-be-violent

"According to FBI statistics, youth violence has declined in recent years as computer and video game popularity soared. We do not claim that the increased popularity of games caused the decline, but the evidence makes a mockery of the suggestion that video games cause violent behavior. Indeed, as the U.S. Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals declared: “The state has not produced substantial evidence that … violent video games cause psychological or neurological harm to minors.” "

http://www.thelocal.se/37756/20111206/#.UM1PZCr7GQg

"A great deal of the research exploring causal links between violent computer games and aggressive behaviour “suffer from serious methodological deficiencies” and don't provide sufficient evidence to establish a causal relationship."

Also these:

[rateyes]

65. did u read the article?

[theKed]

66. Did you read mine?

[rateyes]

78. yes, i did. however, i asked you first...

you said no evidence. i showed you evidence from a university study.

[kydo]

67. did you read theked's articles? nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

70. Actually we had more access to mental health care

Until Ronald Reagan, who emptied, yes, emptied, mental hospitals.

[kydo]

72. yeppers

and my first words after more info on the tragedy happened were, "I blame Reagan." I blame him and his administration for not only this problem but homeless people, (oh I have a long list of issues with raygun, this is just one of them). Yes we had homeless people before that hollywood actor played the role of president. But our homeless problem was turned into a homeless epidemic, because of that douchebag.

It is also that same act of emptying our mental health hospitals that is one of the direct sources of the violent culture we have today. The first being easy access to assault rifles and ammo.

[rateyes]

17. they are part of the problem

ever stop to think that a person not yet diagnosed with a mental illness playing those military style of games is just getting sicker? Images to the brain are like food to the digestive system.

[leftyohiolib]

43. oh the days before violent video games when there were NO incidents of people killing other people

[rateyes]

48. they are part of the problem

[leftyohiolib]

81. oh now i get it. thanks for repeating the same talking point and ignoring the point of the post

i understand now video games are part of the problem before video games were invented. i'm sure< although i missed it on the news, all the murders from the marauding gangs of murderers all hop'd up on pac man and ready to kill.
there were mass murderers before video games therefore video games are not part of the problem. that's just dumb and short sighted and a distraction to the real problem of guns not video games.
but go ahead and repeat the mantra "video games are part of the problem, video games are part of the problem ...."

[rateyes]

86. You're welcome.

[theKed]

44. Except that guns

quite clearly do kill people (it's what things like handguns and assault rifles are made to do - longarms and shotguns at least are for hunting, ostensibly) while numerous studies show no correlation between video games and aggressive behaviour. This a long-standing myth with no real basis in fact.

[rateyes]

10. Teacher here....

Just like we need a ban on assault weapons, we need to keep these military assault type games out of the hands of kids whose brains are still developing.

[ZM90]

15. We have a rating system and whether or not those kids are playing a violent video game is up to the

parent(s). It's not like kids can just go and purchase a violent video game, I've seen stores ask me for my ID before when buying M rated games.

[rateyes]

18. Well, the ratings arent working.

[ZM90]

21. Good luck banning video games....

Legislation that bans or censors video games in any way would declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court faster than anything and if it wasn't declared unconstitutional (haha yeah right) the backlash against the legislation would be so huge the legislation would most likely be repealed via the legislative branch anyway via pressure from millions of gamers.

[reformist2]

30. We're not going to ban video games, but we can tax them to near extinction.

[ZM90]

32. I'm pretty sure the backlash by both gamers and video game companies would cause that legislation to

either die in congress or be repealed shortly if it passed. So again video games dying is NOT going to happen in the near future, I mean I can see them dying in like a 100 years when a new form of media take their place but you're not going to get your wish any time soon.

[theKed]

45. Various people

like Jack Thompson, have tried over and over and over to correlate video games and violence in the courts. The science just does not back up the connection. It will never happen. Any attempt to lay this at the feet of the games industry will get thrown in the wastebin and is a woefully misdirection of blame.

[nadinbrzezinski]

71. You realize the person doing this was an adult right?

You also know the Aurora shooter did not play video games?

We have no idea about this one yet.

Laughner did not either.

They are part of the culture, but they are not the originator of the problem. Silent scope, one of these games, has not even been in arcades for over a decade. (Lousy game too)

And I am, when I buy am m rated game for my husband, carded...trust me, my 18th birthday was a few decades ago.

We need to have a serious conversation, but these same video games are sold and played around the advanced world. Explain why different cultures do not go there.

You made the point that the rating is not working, yet it is. Unless parents willfully buy it for their kids they can't get a copy of wolfestein 3D. (New iteration, sucks as a game). They are to the point that a creative writing tool on iTunes, is rated M.

There are no images there, except the ones in my mind. Granted, some are disturbing, but when writing horror, which at times I dabble in, it's disturbing.

You are looking at one thing you don't like. Well, let me tell you, not a single solution.

And banning computer games is not going to happen. The content WILL CHANGE if people stop buying the material. You believe that strongly, go ahead, organize a boycott. They will respond to market forces.

[zappaman]

80. "There are no images there, except the ones in my mind. Granted, some are disturbing,"

I really don't doubt you at all.
And cheers to looking so young, you are mistaken for 18 and carded.
Wish that happened to me...

[cali]

20. I agree with you. It just makes intuitive sense that immersion into violence

for some kids, results in numbing them to violence.

There are some studies that do link violence with these games.


Children and teenagers who play violent video games show increased physical aggression months afterward, according to new research that adds another layer of evidence to the continuing debate over the video-game habits of the youngest generation.

The research, published today in the journal Pediatrics, brings together three longitudinal studies, one from the United States and two from Japan, examining the content of games, how often they are played and aggressive behaviors later in a school year.

The U.S. research was the first in the nation to look at the effects of violent video games over time, said lead author Craig A. Anderson, a psychology professor at Iowa State University and director of its Center for the Study of Violence.

<snip>

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/02/AR2008110202392.html

A new study claims to provide "the first experimental evidence" that violent videogames have a cumulative, long-term impact on those who play them.

A research team led by Professor Brad Bushman of the Ohio State University has found that people who played a violent videogame for three consecutive days exhibited "increases in aggressive behavior and hostile expectations" every day that they played.

"It's important to know the long-term causal effects of violent videogames, because so many young people regularly play these games," Bushman explained. "Playing videogames could be compared to smoking cigarettes. A single cigarette won't cause lung cancer, but smoking over weeks or months or years greatly increases the risk. In the same way, repeated exposure to violent videogames may have a cumulative effect on aggression."

<snip>

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/121055-Research-Finds-Negative-Effects-in-Violent-Videogames

I don't see violent video games as the cause of any discrete violent event but they may be a factor.

[rateyes]

25. thanks, cali

[Comrade_McKenzie]

36. This is where I draw the line... if we're going to start a witch hunt against more than guns

and lack of mental health... then I hope this doesn't go anywhere.

[theKed]

50. Agreed

It sure feels like one's brewing - here at least.

[renie408]

37. Also, there have been numerous studies which show that the brain cannot

tell the difference between a vividly perceived event and an actual event. When video games were so obviously 'not real', their violence didn't really bother me. But now, some of these games are incredibly realistic. You can't tell me that chuckling your way through shooting a prostitute in the head and then running over an old lady who both look very real every day of the week doesn't do something to a person. Throw in cultural bombardment of violence, access to high magazine weapons and toss in just enough stress or mental illness and that makes for a pretty frightening cocktail.

[kydo]

38. Exactly and thanks cali

I don't see violent video games as the cause of any discrete violent event but they may be a factor.

Violent movies, printed media (aka books, magazines), and video games do play an important part and are factors. But the access to military assault rifles, guns and ammo is the first and strongest factor of this mess.

The expiration of the ban on assault weapons only supports this. Look at the increase of gun violence when that bill expired.

Mental Health is the next issue. Reagan admin gets the first part of the blame on this issue.

Then 24hour news outlets and the sensationalizing of events like this, hurt more then help.

Then Hollywood/video violence.

Solve the first two issues and the other two will become greatly diminished, not gone this doesn't fix this problem just reduces it. This problem will still need to be addressed. But it can't be addressed before we address guns and mental health first.

[Safetykitten]

52. Agree completely.

[reformist2]

23. I don't subscribe to your ranking of the main causes. Violent entertainment is a huge problem.

[Bad Thoughts]

24. Isn't gun culture like game culture?

If we are going to put the blame on an activity that plays out how killing takes place, doesn't much of the gun culture do the same, imagine scenarios in which the shooter's life is in danger and must defend himself with lethal force?

[Renew Deal]

29. I agree

Guns and mental health are at the top of the list.

[Comrade_McKenzie]

35. I will defend free speech and expression with every ounce of my being...

The 1st Amendment is very explicit. There is no "well-regulated" in that one.

[reformist2]

39. Video games aren't speech.

[ZM90]

42. I beg to differ...

Video Games are free speech as are movies and books.

[nadinbrzezinski]

73. Actually the few times this has come before courts

They have found they are speech.

[rateyes]

58. Well, Comrade, video games are part of interstate commerce, and the

constitution does give Congress the power to regulate it.

[theKed]

60. If there weren't a body of legal precedent

against correlating video games and violence, you might be onto something...but there is. This is not a lobby group bleating on Fox about "video games don't kill people, people kill people", this is science, and fact. Pushing for this is, simply, a witch hunt.

[kydo]

61. thanks theKed

I think you might be on to something

[OldDem2012]

46. I'm a pretty simple person with relatively basic thoughts, but....

....I've yet to see anyone killed by a bullet fired from a video game or violent movie. I have yet to read any study that credibly places the blame for gun violence of any kind on video games and violent movies.

But, I've seen more than my share of mentally disturbed individuals who used an easily obtained weapon to kill people in various settings. We may never be able to entirely stop such random acts of violent mass shootings, but we can certainly reduce their number to as close to zero as possible.

We desperately need to restore every last cent to the funding for mental health in this country, and increase it if possible. Concurrently, we need to overhaul our current gun laws no matter how loudly the gun lobby screams and wails about 2nd Amendment rights.

[kwolf68]

47. It's not Hollywood ...

It's capitalism. Slaughter, violence and aggression sell and sometimes there is collateral damage.

[Cobalt Violet]

53. Guns don't kill people, movies and games do.

[nadinbrzezinski]

69. I will give him a point and will tell you why

1.- Glorification of violence.

2.- When was the last time you saw the bloody sheets from a murder scene in your paper? Our media is so sanitized that many folks are having a problem recognizing real life.

We need to change some of the surrounding culture that glorifies violence.

[kydo]

75. So now rush is blaming yep you guessed it ....

wait for it .... "Liberal Hollywood."

[GermanSmoker]

76. I will not change my consumer behaviour one bit

I will continue to consume violent video games and movies/tv shows. We need to defend our freedoms and not abolish them. It's the same with terrorism and the reaction to it. If we give up our freedoms the lunatics have won.

[Glitterati]

85. That makes you part of the problem

We ALL have a responsibility to do what we can to protect the children of our nation.

[99Forever]

82. Good grief!

An entire thread of supposed Democrats parsing out what some nobody RW turd said, didn't say, meant, didn't mean...


... as if it holds some sort of significance.

[PoliticalBiker]

83. Hollywoods and vGames

I believe they absolutely play a role. Not directly, but many of the movies and video games out there serve to desensitize people generally to the horrors of real life killing. If it doesn't happen to them, the tragic part is set aside much sooner and far easier than it should be. The emotional tragedy is forgotten before the impact spurs action to make changes. It is a society-wide issue and will take time to change, but change is needed for us to be able to move forward in our perceptions of our responsibility or role in our growth as a people.

[Glitterati]

84. Seriously. Rambo movies come to mind?

Come on! I was a dumbass and let my son grow up on these gawd awful movies.

Chuck Norris?

Terminator?

Seriously!

on edit:
These movies' central theme was the hero shooting up a town with massive weapons.

Movies ALONE are not the problem. Guns are.

Guns in those movies.

Guns in our lifestyles.

Guns in the hands of monsters.

But, we MUST take responsibility for glorifying them.