General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsBefore you blame violent video games, you might want to find out what's in those games.
First, I'll get out of the way some of the boring crap: The same games are sold everywhere in the western world. There are no games exclusive to the United States. So if you want to blame violent video games, you're going to have to explain why Europe, Canada, Australia, and so on do not have a violence problem yet have the same games.
And even if you can somehow create a construct where that works, you'd have to explain Japan. There are games that are only sold in Japan, because they are so mindbogglingly and horrifically violent that no one will sell them anywhere else. Yet Japan is one of the least violent countries on the planet.
Fact is "violent video games" is just the most recent mass entertainment to be the cause of violence. Before video games, it was music. Before that, it was TV. Before that, it was movies and comic books. And so on.
But that's not really what I wanted to talk about. I wanted to talk about why you should actually like these video games.
Video games are our most liberal mass entertainment. They're far more liberal than TV or movies that are just as violent.
What do I mean? Well here's four examples of very violent video game series, and what's actually going on in their stories.
(Spoilers below - each paragraph with spoilers starts with the name of the game if you want to remain surprised)
Halo Series: In the not-too-distant future, humanity develops practical interstellar travel. We set out on the cosmos, colonizing planets. And then we stumble across the Covenant. The Covenant are a theocratic union of several races. And they decide to destroy humanity with fanatical religious fervor. During the game, you get to "enjoy" all of what being in a theocracy means. By the end of the game, the characters you control shatter the theocratic alliance. Some species refuse to abandon their religion and stick to the old ways. Other species realize that they've been had by their prophets. And a civil war erupts with the "Brutes" desperately clinging to their religion while the "Elites" seek to expose and destroy the corruption....btw, the humans aren't involved in that fight, except in as much as the Brutes attack them on orders from the Prophets.
(Halo, con't) So you get to see the corruption of theocracy, and the massive losses caused by such a large conflict - the series doesn't end with happy people. The series actually ends with a prequel, where your character dies to give humanity a chance via the rest of the games. War isn't fun, it's hell. Friends die suddenly and senselessly. You get to know the group of soldiers you are fighting with, and they die one by one. Usually without actually accomplishing what they hoped their death would accomplish. (I haven't played the brand-new Halo 4, so I don't know where the series is going next)
Gears of War series: Humanity has settled on a planet with a fantastic underground power source, in the form of a yellow glowing liquid. And humanity rapidly exploits that power source. But using that fuel causes planet-wide catastrophe after catastrophe - it drives the formerly-underground native species onto the surface, where they battle the humans for the limited space. The game ends with the destruction of that power source, complete with "oil" derricks collapsing.
(Gears of war, con't) In addition, the game discusses weapons of mass destruction - humans developed a weapon that makes Hiroshima look like a pop-gun. The lead character's father invented the technology. He's a scientist with so many ideas on how to fix things, yet his solutions keep slaughtering large numbers of people. Including the game-ending oil-derrick-collapsing device that removes the danger caused by the fuel source. It wipes out the planet's native sentient species as a known side effect. The character is not sympathetic. He keeps talking about his ideas and how much he wanted to fix things, yet he's completely lost in the science. He keeps not thinking about the real world. Until he finally incinerates himself in front of his son. Deliberately.
(Gears, con't con't) Finally, the futility of war is a constant theme throughout the game. The world is dirty, depressing, and failing. But at the end of the series, with the war finally over, the game ends with "We finally have a tomorrow". Meaning now that the war is over, they finally can actually look forward to a future instead of living in the horrible drudgery of the conflict. Anyway, the game series is explicitly anti-war, anti-global-warming, and anti-WMD. Yes, you walk around with an assault rifle that has a chainsaw strapped to it. But what you are doing is about more than the hardware.
Assassin's Creed: In this series of games, you are a member of an ancient order of assassins. The series is quite lengthy, and one of the bloggers over at Digby's place has done a very good job describing the story and all the liberal elements of the story. But long-story short: Your enemy is the Pope. Yes, really. The Pope. It turns out religion was foisted on humanity as a mechanism to hide hyper-advanced alien technology - the miracles from the Bible were real, but caused by devices not a deity. Religion was created in order to keep those devices in the hands of a corrupt few instead of benefiting all. And your job is to work against the cabal that is keeping the benefits of those devices from all of humanity. The story also winds its way to the Americas, where you get to partake in the American Revolution...and you get to experience what we did to the Native Americans. The story in this game is EXTREMELY liberal even down to a letter from Justice Scalia about how he fixed the 2000 presidential election.
Mass Effect: In the not to distant future (boy that sounds familiar), humanity finds itself as the new upstart among a collective of races run by three major powers. There's so damn many liberal themes in this series that I'm gonna outsource this to David Atkins at Digby's again. It's pro-LGBT, anti-corporate, deals with multiple genocides, and shows how bureaucracy is fundamentally conservative.
To say video games celebrate violence is to say The Great Gatsby glorifies excessive wealth. If that's all you think is going on, you haven't looked closely enough.
Occulus
(20,599 posts)"What was the last video game you played, of any kind, and when?"
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)backscatter712
(26,355 posts)Cooley Hurd
(26,877 posts)Was he on anti-depressants? Any other pharmaceuticals? That has to be the starting point.
enlightenment
(8,830 posts)to go off the rails - but they do desensitize people to violence. Your post is case in point. In your synopses, you managed to talk about these games without ever getting to the point - that you, as the player, are killing. Killing other people, killing other "sentient beings", killling, killing, killing.
The issue isn't how liberal the philosophies of the games are - the liberal philosophy isn't why people play them. They play them because they like to play soldier/assassin/hero/etc - and kill things.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)You aren't killing for sport. You aren't killing because it's cool. You are being attacked. And the games happily explain what your killing does to the world around you. Even when you are not presented with a "don't kill" option to avoid those negative consequences.
Killing is not glorified in these games.
And while they are there, we teach them that killing isn't good. It isn't clean. And it isn't helpful.
The alternatives are things like movies and TV. They have ample killing. But when the hero kills someone in those movies, there are no bad consequences. Everything is better after Bruce Willis shoots people in the Die Hard movies.
enlightenment
(8,830 posts)If you like playing games that involve killing, you like killing things. You can justify it anyway you want to do so, but the bottom line is that you like shooting make-believe guns and killing make-believe people.
If it teaches people that killing isn't good, isn't clean, isn't helpful then why do people keep endlessly playing them? Do they have a learning deficit that keeps them from getting the message?
Or could it be that they just like all that perfectly safe make-believe killing?
jeff47
(26,549 posts)And they're going to go somewhere for entertainment.
Our other entertainment options celebrate killing with little to no consequences for the good guys. Those media options have lead to the "Red Dawn" fetish among prepers and other extreme gun rights people.
By saying video games are the problem, you are implicitly saying other forms of entertainment are not a problem. However, the lack of consequences around violence in those media has directly resulted in crazy people buying up guns to fight off hordes of "bad guys". Because those killings will have no consequences - only good things will happen. And then their crazy 20-year-old son shoots up a school with their toys.
oldhippie
(3,249 posts)... is a perfect example of the problem. You can't see it, but others do.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)on a desperate-for-ratings news program that's covering desperate-for-attention moralists.
Alternatively, you could explain how a video game where killing isn't celebrated is so much worse than movies or TV, where killing is AWESOME!!!!!!. "Hasta la vista, baby" isn't just poorly-mangled Spanish in Terminator 2.
Yet the people gathering pitchforks to go after video games consistently fail to put any blame on other entertainment options.....Now. Those same kinds of people blamed other entertainment options when they were new. And those options still glorify killing far more than video games.
Occulus
(20,599 posts)in front of your eyes, and has your friends imprisoned, and is holding them for ransom?
That's the point of FarCry 3. It's not simply killing for the sake of killing. It's killing for the sake of saving innocent lives.
You missed the point. Entirely.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)The purpose of playing, whose end, both at the first and now,
was and is, to hold as 'twere the mirror up to nature: to show
virtue her feature, scorn her own image, and the very age and
body of the time his form and pressure.
Shakespeare
Long and short of it, if you want to change art, you have to change the world and that is part of the point of art in the first place.
And you could cite some evidence of your specific assertions, because I think they are the stuff that dreams are made on.
Dawgs
(14,755 posts)You should just stop now.
phleshdef
(11,936 posts)I play violent video games. But the thought of even getting into a fist fight with someone makes me sick to my stomach.
Separation
(1,975 posts)Video games are HEAVILY censored outside of the US. ask anyone in Australia.
Secondly, I don't allow those games to be played by my son because he cannot differentiate between real and imaginary. The finality 3...2..1..respawn and death real final death.
I would be interested in seeing another study. Except this time with people with social disorders, schizophrenia, etc.
After edit: I would like to add that I myself do play these games. I have every fallout from the originals to the newer ones with hundreds of mods installed. I've played mass effect from beginning to end. But there is a huge differance between me and my son that is the state of our mental health. I would no more let my son play these games than have access to any real weapons.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)For example, German versions of these games can't have blood. Everything else is the same. They are still killing just as many things. It's just less gory.
Which means the censorship actually makes it closer to what you are worried about with your son - the killings are nice and clean and neat when you remove the gore.
Edit to add: That's not to say every child should play violent video games. Especially children that are too young for them. We still have to be parents with video games as much as we have to be parents with movies and TV.
cthulu2016
(10,960 posts)of teenage girls running around naked.
You have demonstrated that the games are hypocritical, which is hardly a surprising trait in such media.
Nobody is more "anti" than Nancy Grace, yet her show seems to be conceived as entertainment for child rapists.
Such seeming mismatches are commonplace.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)There's no part in the stories of the games I talked about where death is celebrated as good.
(Halo Spoiler): In Halo 3, you can play as one of the Elites. You kill the last Prophet, effectively ending the religious civil war that has literally slaughtered hundreds of billions of people. There is no fanfare. There is no celebration. There is only death.
OneGrassRoot
(22,920 posts)(Edit to add that I read the response upthread about desensitization after my comments below.)
I've never played any games. Don't know anything about them (other than when they've been part of the plot on CSI, Law & Order, etc. ).
I guess everything has pros and cons. I do have the uneducated impression that there is a lot of gratuitous violence and because, unlike movies and music, it's interactive -- the gamer is the one doing the shooting, etc. -- that disturbs me when the elements are really lifelike. It does seem as though it could desensitize people who are vulnerable to such things. And, really, aren't most teens vulnerable?
The other aspect of many of the games I've seen in passing is that they really seem VERY sexist. In fact, I was watching a video the other day about a young woman -- a gamer -- who took this on in the form of a kickstarter campaign to study the sexism in these games, only to have an online coordinated attack launched against her.
Thanks for the post and conversation about this though. It's inevitably going to be part of the discussion.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Fortunately, there's a significant amount of effort underway to fix that. But I'd also point out sexism is a massive problem in our other entertainment too - most action movies don't exactly flatter women.
And there's a lot of stand-outs for their non-sexism in gaming. For example, you can play as a man or a woman in the Mass Effect series. The story is almost identical. The only difference is which straight people you can date - since those particular characters are straight, romantic options are not available to a same-sex player character. The bisexual characters do not care which gender your character is. In the later episodes of the series, there are also gay characters you can date.
OneGrassRoot
(22,920 posts)I really appreciate this conversation. I've been meaning to ask someone so I can learn more about it from a gamer's perspective.
Occulus
(20,599 posts)She looks to be another very strong female character.
white_wolf
(6,238 posts)The idea was that only males were gamers, but that is being prove more and more untrue everyday. I'm sure we all know female gamers and industry isn't going to risk profits by pissing them off. There are probably almost as many female gamers and male. Hell, Felecia Day has built her entire career around being a female gamer.
cemaphonic
(4,138 posts)On the one hand, I would say that female characters (both player and computer controlled) have, on the whole, more agency than they do in most movies (and virtually all action movies which is where most video games would fit genre-wise). There have been many memorable female characters that don't neatly fall into the sidekick/romantic interest/goal roles (and the ones that do often get subverted and in surprising ways), and they often turn up in occupations/activities that even today are traditionally male. And games where the player can choose the gender of their avatar have, for as long as I can remember, always made both genders just as capable as each other, the differences being largely cosmetic and in social interactions. And while deep characterization is rare for either gender in games, the ones that have complex characters are usually pretty balanced between male and female.
And yet... developers just can't let go of the cheesecake T&A (and body proportions) that the industry cribbed from fantasy art and superhero comics. Even the less scantily-clad characters often have skimpy clothes as an unlockable reward. And even though they get teased about it by the gaming press, they still pour money and time into improving the movement physics and 3-d modeling of breasts. And as far as sexual violence goes, I've never encountered a game with anything close to a rape as graphic as any number of movies, but it is very common as backstory or an implicit threat. Batman: Arkham City was an especially egregious recent example with the frequency of rape threats against the female characters (ultimately toothless, and expressed solely by violent criminals, but still..).
I remember seeing that kickstarter pitch that you are referring to. While there was undeniably some gamer defensiveness going on there, mostly she was being attacked via youtube comments, which are a vile cesspit no matter what the subject.
OneGrassRoot
(22,920 posts)Thanks for your insight about this subject. Really good to know!
Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)Initech
(100,079 posts)Video cards get better every year, processors get better every year and even storage technology gets better every year. Why? Gamers want the latest and greatest and they're willing to fork over a lot of cash for it. The system buipder market has become huge in the last few years and a good 90% of the buyers are gamers. So keep that in mind too.
Hun Joro
(666 posts)Exultant Democracy
(6,594 posts)Users spend 1 billion hours on xbox live a month playing games and incapable of committing crime.
Gman
(24,780 posts)Violent games function as simulators. The more killing of inanimate objects on a screen, the better one can get at killing.
Given that most people know the difference and their conscience would never let them kill, there are some that can'take the distinction. I suspect the guy in CT was likely one that couldn't.
If that means many do without because of a few nuts, so be it.
Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)Just asking.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Hugabear
(10,340 posts)You know, the ones where the primary goal seems to be to kill as many non-Westerners as possible.
Those seem to be the most popular games over the past few years.
Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)such as the Enclave, there is an expansion where you have to repel Chinese soldiers from a base in Anchorage.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)For example, there's an awful lot to the "Modern Warfare" franchise beyond the shooting.
Yes, you are shooting. But you aren't shooting because you prefer shooting to other options. You're shooting because the other people are shooting at you.
And again, your killing isn't universally good as with, say, a James Bond movie.
reformist2
(9,841 posts)white_wolf
(6,238 posts)As for anti-religion well some are, but so what? I'd say at least 50% of DUers are anti-religion. We could do with less religion in our society.
Laochtine
(394 posts)Hitler and Stalin played COD and the Catholic church, John Wayne Gacy and Jeffrey Dahmer played Leisure Suit Larry
RomneyLies
(3,333 posts)Think Lieberman will go after that one, too?
Every time some gun nut brings up the video games, I'm going to say, "you mean like the one the Army puts out for free?"