A few days before this last shooting, there was one in Portland Oregon

[Bandit]

The shooter stole a friend's semi-automatic rifle and killed people with it. should the owner of the rifle have any responsibility for the murders? If the rifle was secured it would not have been stolen and then used to kill people with..I think the owner should face a civil Lawsuit and be subject to severe liability. Maybe if enough people were held responsible for allowing any firearm they own to be used in a crime access to firearms might be a little tighter...I have no answers but I do know we as a nation can do a whole lot better than we currently are doing.. Ownership of guns might not be "the problem" but access to firearms certainly is..

[bayareamike]

1. I don't think the owner should be liable.

What if someone stole my car and used it to run somebody over? Should I be liable because they somehow got access to my keys?

Although in this case, I believe the rifle was not in a secure location, what if it was say locked up and the perpetrator got access to it anyways? It's not impossible. I don't think we should scapegoat those who do not commit crimes in an attempt to deter the real bad guys from committing those same crimes.

[qkvhj]

2. stopped after an armed citizen pulled a gun on him

Yes that is the truth. An armed citizen who was in that mall pulled his glock 22 and drew down on him. The bad guy clearly saw him and went down the stairs and then killed himself with his next shot. He knew his unchallenged shooting spree was over.

The citizen did not shoot the murderer because he saw innocent people in his line of fire behind the "target". This young man made great decisions in a very stressful and difficult situation. Many other people, potential victims, should be glad that he was there with his weapon and had been properly trained.

[Fumesucker]

6. That's the opinion of that person, or at least what he is saying

Which may or may not coincide with reality.

Welcome to DU.

[Lizzie Poppet]

12. It's impossible to know, with the shooter dead.

I saw the video interview with Mr. Meli, the guy with the concealed handgun. While he comes across as a very reasonable person (and a very responsible gun owner), even he was admitting he was only speculating that the shooter broke off his attack and committed suicide after spotting an armed person. With the shooter dead, we can never know what he was thinking. That the shooter only appears to have fired one shot after that (his suicide) is circumstantial evidence at best.

I am gratified, however, that Meli demonstrated responsibility as a CCW permit holder. When he first drew his weapon, he didn't have a clear shot at the murderer...so he didn't fire, even though he saw that the shooter had seen him. He didn't panic, thinking "OMG, he saw me...I have to shoot now!" That a spree-killer doesn't care about bystanders while the "good guys" (cops or citizens alike) do is always going to be a disadvantage for the latter in situations like this. It's a disadvantage the good guys just have to accept if they want to remain good guys.

[CJCRANE]

3. As other DUers have pointed out, there should be mandatory gun insurance

to cover the costs of the consequences of any accidental or deliberate discharge of a weapon.

That way the costs are put on the owner and not the taxpayer.

[KittyWampus]

7. Wow! I hadn't heard that and think it's a very sound idea. Hard to argue with too.

[Lizzie Poppet]

4. If this is indeed how it happened...

...then yes, I think the friend should be liable. I don't think he can actually be held liable now, because that's not how the law is written, nor could he be charged retroactively if the law changes. I'd like to see this sort of thing become law, though. Mandate proper firearms security measures and punish people who fail to take them if their weapon falls into criminal hands.

In this particular case, however, I have my suspicions that the weapon was loaned, not stolen...and the friend is covering his ass. Not that he knew what the shooter intended...

[qkvhj]

10. Come to Cali

I have to tell them what model of safe I have every time I buy a firearm. I am good with this and obey the laws. And yet they kill people with guns every day in this state. Do you think that criminals and crazies just might have something to do with this problem????? There may be some out there but I do not know of a single incident where a legally approved, trained person with a CCW has nutted up and just started shooting people. On the other hand there is not enough space on this board to note all the criminals and crazies who have used firearms to kill others, and this is after they made us lock up our guns.
Believe it or not the latest thing for these criminals is just to steal your whole safe and cut it open someplace else. So now what do we do????

[Lizzie Poppet]

17. Agreed: even a gun safe isn't 100% effective.

But at least it's a not-inconsiderable impediment. Mine would take some very strong people and a truck to carry off (I have a few rifles, so it's pretty large, albeit more empty than full!).

I'm also unaware of a spree-killing by a CCW permit holder, and any sort of violent incident is astronomically rare. But then, people who follow the law and go through the steps (including a background check) to get their permit aren't likely to commit "normal" murders. Spree killers are usually law-abiding prior to their rampage, but such incidents are so rare as to not constitute a valid statistical sample to use for most any group as large as that of CCW permit holders.

Gun violence in the US has more to do with our idiotic War on Drugs (and the violent gangs it has given rise to) than probably any other factor.

[kestrel91316]

14. The same harsh punishments I propose should apply whether someone "loans" a gun or it's

taken without permission. Unless the perp destroyed a top-of-the-line gun safe to get the gun, the owner bears responsibility, too.

[alcibiades_mystery]

5. There should be a standard for the securing of private firearms that entails both criminal and civil

negligence if people fail to meet it.

All these people conveniently getting their guns stolen, or lost.

Ridiculous.

[SharonAnn]

8. Yet guns that are locked in gun safes get stolen, also. It happened here

and a police officer is dead because of it.

The teenager figured out how to open the safe. It apparently involved a combination of smarts and brute force to do it. Then he took the rifles and managed to kill one policeman when he was surrounded, then he shot himself.

And the policeman was one who knew him and was trying to "talk him down".

[CJCRANE]

13. But that's where insurance comes in. If your car is stolen

you usually get the pay out as long as you can prove that you took reasonable precautions to secure your car.

[kestrel91316]

16. Grossa negligence. CRIMINAL negligence - IMHO. I support aggressive

criminal prosecution of negligent gun owners.

[WhoIsNumberNone]

9. That's how they do it in Germany

A friend of mine lives there. He says it takes about three years to get a gun license, and once you do you are accountable for that gun. If someone steals it and uses it to commit a crime, you are equally liable.

[qkvhj]

15. Europe has its own problems

The truth is that Europe has had almost as much gun violence in schools and against children as we have in the last 10 years. The gun laws there are much more strict than here but that has not stopped firearms violence against children.

[kestrel91316]

18. No, but it gets violent criminals AND negligent gun owners off the streets

so they can't hurt people for at least a time.

[WhoIsNumberNone]

19. Source?

Yeah, that's what I thought.

[kestrel91316]

11. Negligent gun owners who do not keep their dangerous toys secured where they can't be taken by

people like that need to be criminally prosecuted to the same extent as the actual perpetrator.

Betcha they'd move heaven and earth to keep them secured safely if that were the case. And we could prevent this sort of murder.

Civil penalties aren't scary enough by far. People laugh them off.