On this day Dec. 14, 2012, both of these incidents happened...

[Playinghardball]

[AndyA]

1. Fingers don't kill people, bullets do n/t

[Aristus]

31. No point in using logic with gun owners. It's like saying to Gollum:

"Let that ring go, man! Look what it did to you! Look what it's doing to the world!"

They're addicted. They'll never give up their precious...

[SummerSnow]

38. They're starting to look like Gollum too.

[cer7711]

2. It's Almost As If . . .

. . . God, fate, karma and/or arresting coincidence is trying to tell us something . . .

[berni_mccoy]

3. K&R

[LAGC]

4. Yeah, and what happens when guns are banned and some nut-case BOMBS a school instead?

I'm sorry, but the tools aren't the problem here.

We need serious mental health care in this country, and we need it YESTERDAY.

[BainsBane]

5. Anything to protect your guns

Despite the fact your post is an expression of prejudice and nothing else. There is no correlation between mental illness and propensity toward violence. There are strong correlations between gun ownership and violence, as well as use of chemical substances. But you don't care about evidence or dead children. You care only about stockpiling WMD.

Your bullshit is obvious.

[apocalypsehow]

7. +1. n/t.

[former9thward]

9. "There are strong correlations between gun ownership and violence"

I am sure you will link to that claim.

[BainsBane]

12. here

http://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/faculty/dranove/htm/Dranove/coursepages/Mgmt%20469/guns.pdf
http://home.uchicago.edu/~ludwigj/papers/JPubE_guns_2006FINAL.pdf
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/research/hicrc/firearms-research/guns-and-death/index.html

As opposed to mental illness: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1525086/
That same article notes a high correlation between substance abuse and violent crime.

[Walk away]

18. Thanks. These are really useful links. And thanks for standing up to bull shit too! nt

[Scuba]

23. Worthy of its own post.

[daleanime]

26. Well done.

[BainsBane]

29. DanTex provided the gun research in another thread

He was the one who first found the top three links above:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2001209\\

As a side note, I love how the gun advocates run away when provided with evidence, both in this thread and the one linked above.

[daleanime]

50. Thanks for the link...

nearly impossible to keep up with everything.

[former9thward]

32. The Washington Post, a paper which supports total gun confication, disputed these type of 'studies'.

I stopped reading your first link when it tried to say the rate of gun ownership was tied to sales of Guns and Ammo magazine. Absurd. When 'researchers' have an agenda it is very easy to come up with bogus stats and call them facts.

From the Post: Gohmert’s statement was declarative and sweeping: “The facts are every time guns have been allowed, concealed-carry has been allowed, the crime rate has gone down.”

The actual evidence is much murkier — and in dispute. Certainly, it appears such laws have not increased the crime rate, as opponents had feared, but it is equally a stretch to say such laws are a slam-dunk reason for why crimes have decreased. Even those sympathetic to Lott’s research suggest that any decline in the crime rate from right-to-carry laws is more sporadic — as opposed to Gohmert’s claim that crime rate always goes down.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/do-concealed-weapon-laws-result-in-less-crime/2012/12/16/e80a5d7e-47c9-11e2-ad54-580638ede391_blog.html

[BainsBane]

43. these type of studies?

academic studies?
Give me a break. You don't get to compare a newspaper to pier reviewed academic studies. That's not even a decent effort. Besides, the article you linked to doesn't even cover the same parameters. Go back to school. You get an F.

[former9thward]

44. Yeah, using subscriptions to Guns and Ammo as a parameter is real academic.

What is next? Ouija boards?

[BainsBane]

45. its basic

You site an article that's about concealed carry only. It's a fucking newspaper article. Moreover, the article is dispelling one of the gun nut talking points. It doesn't make any grand comments about academic studies. You obviously didn't read the studies or, it seems, the article you linked to.

The second link I cited draws from homicide data. You know murders, dead children. I get that you don't care that more pre-school children die in this country from guns than do police on active duty. As long as you have a blast shooting. And you'll lie and dissemble all day long to protect your hobby and resist any efforts to prevent the loss of human life. I get that you are unable to consider anything that doesn't come straight from the NRA. But guess what? I don't fucking care what you think. Your views are entirely irrelevant. The days of gun terror in this country are coming to an end.

[Atypical Liberal]

47. But there does seem to be a correlation between mass shootings and mental illness. nt

[PA Democrat]

11. Access to mental health care needs to be improved but

Last edited Mon Dec 17, 2012, 11:10 PM - Edit history (1)

people need to realize that there is no sure "cure" for mental illness. We have a long way to go in effective treatment of mental illness. The science is really in its infancy in many respects.

As for your statement about gun control, that's a pathetic excuse for inaction.

[LAGC]

13. What action do you think would have really made a difference in this case?

The shooter STOLE the guns from his mother, a law-abiding citizen by all accounts, before murdering her.

No amount of background checks would have made a damn bit of difference.

The only thing that could have prevented this was help being sought for the shooter, before he snapped.

I know this latest incident is making people very emotional right now, but logically, what really should be done?

[PA Democrat]

14. Large capacity magazines should be banned. Body armor piercing bullets should be banned.

Assault weapons should be banned. One of the children buried today had ELEVEN rounds of ammunition pumped into his six year old body. If that doesn't make you feel outraged and emotional at our pathetic gun culture, you are lost. If Adam Lanza did not have access to that amount of rapid fire power, perhaps several of the dead children and adults would be alive today.

What do YOU suggest we do? Mental health care is a huge issue. But as someone who is intimately familiar with the current state of affairs, there are no sure cures. One of the first questions that mental health crisis professionals will ask people who request assistance with a child or loved one is whether there are GUNS in the house.

[LAGC]

15. There are millions of law-abiding Americans who own those types of guns.

And never do harm with them. Its always bad to craft public policy off of a few anecdotal incidents, no matter how outrageous, which I agree this latest shooting was. Someone as deranged as this shooter was could have just as easily poisoned a bunch of people or locked the school doors and started a fire.

I wish I had all the answers, but I don't. I do think we should make mental health care more of a priority, part of universal health care where money should never be an object to getting people the help that they need.

I'm sure much more will come out in the coming weeks and months ahead, and I'm sure (yet again) all the red-flags and warning signs will be all over the place, if only someone had intervened.

[PA Democrat]

16. Yes and people could get a nuclear bombs and anthrax and death ray guns so let's ignore

REASONABLE action we could take to save lives.

I know many people who work in the mental health field and thy will tell you that it is IMPOSSIBLE to accurately predict who is capable of this level of violence. So cling to your guns and pathetic excuses and pray that no one you love will be the target of such a senseless crime.

And those 20 children and 6 adults who are dead are not "anecdotal".

[neverforget]

17. These massacres aren't anectodotal and there were 8583 gun murders in 2011

The next closest are knives/cutting instruments at 1694.

Other is 1164 and personal weapons such as hands are 728. Add them all up and it's not even close to those murdered by guns. 70% of all murders were committed by a gun.

The good news is that murders by all weapons are falling.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/jan/10/gun-crime-us-state

[harmonicon]

30. And many, many more will be killed with their own guns. (nt)

[intaglio]

37. There are millions of law abiding citizens who might have their guns stolen

There are millions of law abiding owners which means that one day one of them will lose their mind.

There are hundreds of law abiding gun owners who are freepers and some of them want to murder the President.

Stop thinking about only your enjoyment and start thinking of those who have died in fear and terror because of the gun fetishists like those we see in RKBA

[catbyte]

39. The point is, LAGC, those types of guns aren't necessary. What are they good for except to

compensate for personal inadequacies, real or perceived? Nobody needs an AK-47. Nobody needs a clip that holds 100 rounds. I get so tired of the argument, "Blah blah blah blah, millions of lawful gun owners blah blah blah blah..." The ONLY people I have personally known who own these types of weapons and ammo have them to butch up, make themselves feel important/special, or in reaction to a sick, paranoid, anti-government fantasy. It's time for gun owners to stop being so fucking selfish and end their love affair with all these militarized weapons.

Shall we all now demand RPGs? Stinger missiles? Where does it stop?

[secondvariety]

46. Yeah, yeah, blah, blah.

They're all law abiding gun owners-until they're not. Then it's too late.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

40. Nope. Can't do that. At least not here in Florida.

The NRA wrote a law making it illegal for a doctor to ask a parent whether they had a gun in the home.

[brush]

20. She didn't need all those guns

If she didn't have the multiple automatic and large clip weapons, the unbalanced kid would not have been able to get them and murder 26 people. It's not that complicated.

[olegramps]

25. Don't you think that his mother was negligent in not securing her guns?

People who own guns, I believe have a responsibility to make it as nearly impossible as they can that they don't fall into the wrong hands. In his mother's case, she had an added responsibility in that she was well aware of his mental problems. It appears that she was wealthy and should have had a gun vault to which only she knew the combination. I have read of several cases in which children were accidental killed because of their parents negligence in securing the weapons and other cases in which minors took the weapon and killed with it. Yes, I do hold parents responsible in some cases.

[intaglio]

33. The mother being restricted in her gun ownership

The mother being stopped from purchasing a military style long gun capable of firing 30 rounds in 10 seconds (even without "bump firing" mechanisms)

The mother being stopped from buying high capacity magazines

The mother being stopped from buying large quantities of ammunition

The gun clubs and the mother recognising that Adam was not a fit person to be taught gun handling

The mother ensuring that all her weapons were secured in such a way that her son could not get to them

Or to put it another way firm gun control legislation.

Now take the your talking points, all inspired by the NRA, and stuff them

[Walk away]

19. That must go down like logic in the Gungeon. nt

[Tommy_Carcetti]

22. The tools are most definitely the fucking problem here.

The status of mental healthcare in this country and our endemic gun violence this country are not mutually exclusive. Stop trying to claim that just because you brought up one problem you can't bring up the other.

They go hand in hand. You try to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich without peanut butter.

[cynatnite]

35. They are not fucking tools!

You can't treat a gun like a hammer or a screwdriver.

Stop trying to pretend that guns are innocuous and only the bad people are harmful.

Guns are weapons designed for one purpose...to kill. They need regulated. Period.

[apocalypsehow]

6. Kick & Rec. n/t.

[former9thward]

8. At a Michigan elementary school 38 kids die plus 6 adults.

The killer (the janitor) did not use guns to kill his victims. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

Tim McVeigh didn't need to use a gun either.

IN the 1950s and before it was far, far more easy to obtain a gun than it is now. Also a much greater percentage of the population owned guns. Why weren't there random school shootings then?

[Superbot]

10. I remember reading about that school in Bath

Truly horrible

[Walk away]

21. As a defence of guns this post win the "least logical argument ever" award!

The last I heard bombs were illegal. Bombs were used to kill children. They should be illegal.

Guns are used to slaughter children. So, let's make guns illegal too!

I think the NRA needs to come out with better talking points.

[former9thward]

36. So if something is illegal then it won't happen.

You think someone who has the mentality to kill children and give up his own life is not going to do it because it is illegal??? I live in a university town and 90% of my friends smoke pot. News flash --- pot is illegal and it is the easiest thing in the world to get.

[Walk away]

41. So you contend that if bombs were legal and as accessible as guns....

we wouldn't see an uptick in people being killed in explosions? This is the amazing thing about "gun" logic. The further down the road you go the less rational it is.

[former9thward]

42. If guns disappeared tomorrow morning we would see a big uptick in explosions.

All bomb making material is legal to buy at your local hardware store. The information to put it together is on the internet. There is no logic acceptable to freedom haters. No matter what the facts are you will dismiss them.

[olegramps]

27. Isn't a fact that as a result laws made it far more difficult to obtain explosives?

[former9thward]

34. No.

Tim McVeigh had no problem. You can go to your local hardware store if you want to build a bomb. I am not going to tell you how but the information is all over the internet.

[olegramps]

49. I am talking about dynamite etc.

[former9thward]

51. This is not the movies.

Dynamite is not that effective of an explosive if your intention is to build a bomb. Many other things are and are freely available at the hardware store.

[Renew Deal]

24. Is there a source for that Chinese story?

This is the first I've heard about it.

[Little Star]

28. Here..

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/man-attacks-22-kids-knife-china-school-article-1.1220230

[Rhiannon12866]

48. K&R! Lawrence O'Donnell just said the exact same thing...

We can't hear this reminder too often...