I'm so sick of these moral panics every time a tragedy happens.

[white_wolf]

When the Aurora shooting happened I saw several threads trying to blame comic books and Batman for somehow causing the shooter to go nuts. In the 50's people thought comic books were corrupting the youth and then it was rock music, and then it was DND for awhile,and now after this recent shooting we are back to blaming videogames. Rush is preaching it on his show and several DUers are drinking the kool-aid. Quit blaming the media, quit blaming Batman and comic books, quit blaming videogames and movies, and start dealing with the real issue. Guns! It wasn't Batman that made enabled the Aurora shooter to kill all those people, it was easy access to guns. It wasn't games that caused this recent event it was guns. So quit drinking the right-wing kool-aid about the media and focus on the guns.

[uppityperson]

1. Do you think there are no societal reasons for this mass murder?

It is "just" the guns? Only "easy access to guns" that made this 20 yr old, and the Aurora killer kill?

No lack of non-stigmatic mental health care? No ubiquitous violence across tv, movies, games to the point that many don't even notice? No lack of feeling connected? Just "access to guns"?

Amazing there are not more mass murders then.

I agree, locking up, regulating guns and limiting the number of bullets in a clip is a good start, but to say it is ONLY "access to guns" is too simplistic. I wish I had an answer, I really do.

[kestrel91316]

23. There are always societal factors, and they should be addressed.

But they should not be allowed to deflect attention from the actual things that kill: guns.

[Care Acutely]

48. YES! Guns may not "cause" but they sure do facilitate all to hell!

[jtuck004]

72. The bomb in OKC killed 168 people in the Federal Building. The Ryder truck full of common

fertilizer and diesel fuel hit the first floor nursery first, and blew it through the upper 4 floors, leaving a gaping hole across the middle of what used to be a building. Among the kids in the nursery were 19 _under_ 6 years old.

One of the long-time R folks from Congress, on MSNBC today, said he "couldn't remember" another situation in which so many kids were killed. I can, and I suspect there are at least a few million that can.

Guns fire where they are pointed. People kill. Hate destroys.

While I think more thoughtfulness in gun sales is certainly called for, if we don't address hate, and perhaps mental challenges that may mimic or generate it, we will not be as effective in stopping whatever percentage of the 32,000 gun homicides/suicides yearly that we might have.

Because I think something will be done this time. And then there will be another mass casualty and people are going to look around and say "but we banned guns, dammit, now who do we blame?".

[6502]

79. I believe we might have a chance at doing something...

Last edited Tue Dec 18, 2012, 12:14 AM - Edit history (1)

I wrote something at this link that I hope might give us a taste:

"<CALL TO ACTION!> Obama needs our help against the NRA!!!!"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022008151

[humbled_opinion]

69. Did he forget that

Timothy Mcveigh didn't use a gun....

[Lordquinton]

89. You are right

He used another substance, which is regulated by the federal government because large amounts of it can be used to make explosives that can destroy buildings. He managed to get around the regulations, but he had suspicion on him from it, and regulations have been tightened.

[Peregrine]

2. And the media

Turns it into a reality tv show.

[Skidmore]

3. You know what I get sick of?

Binary thinking. Black and white thinking. Refusal to see that a variety of factors can contribute to a situation. It's simplistic and immature.

[earthside]

9. Hear! Hear!

Refusal to even consider the cultural and societal influences that make this country in particular so domestically violent is being just as blind and closed-minded as are the gun nuts.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

28. x2

Binary thinking is for authoritarians and authoritarian supporters.

[Cynicus Emeritus]

57. There are more reasons for these massacres than our corrupt simple minded politicians

wish to say or hear.

There are many reasons but our political enablers attempt to make us think it is all black and white. The Ds want the white and the Rs the black. They like simple solutions for the simple minded.

You think a culture that knows it has many mental health problems but does nothing because some of the richest don't want to spend any money, except on more war, is suspect?

You think the Wall St thieves and that got off scot-free without a day in prison after pillaging our treasury, outsourcing all of our living wage jobs and destroying the economy had nothing to do with the resulting anger in America? Most believe there should have been public trials followed by public hangings based upon the investigations of those such as Matt Taibbi. Instead our clueless Facebook enabled consumer enamored culture see only what they are told by the media and the advertisers that are hired to influence.

You think a Hollywood media that thrives on corrupting America (and especially the most susceptible) with dehumanizing movies and video games plays a small part?

We could all go on with the various reasons above and beyond the B & W.

[ms liberty]

62. Yes. I wish I could rec this; thanks, Skidmore! n/ t

[A Simple Game]

66. So what should we work on? Should we split up? Some of us

take on gun control, some mental health, some more video games, and at least a few of us movies? Let's all divide up and fight among each other while the enemy wins again.

We have a chance, probably slight, to get some meaningful legislation this time, the President is actually talking like he is willing to lead on the issue. Why do you listen to the ones that want to divert attention to other areas?

Yes we do have a mental health problem but that is not what will get fixed this time. We have a chance to get meaningful gun legislation, lets try for it.

[Skidmore]

74. We need to engage on all fronts.

There needs to be a dialogue and changes made in many sectors of this broken culture we slog through. If it means hauling some media people out and talking with them about taking responsibility for their products, what can that hurt. Some of the cultural stuff can be resolved without legislation. Don't be a binary thinker.

[A Simple Game]

91. I am not a binary thinker, I know we have many problems

some major, some minor, some real, and some perceived. I know movies and video games have been blamed for several years. But I do not have blinders on, I can see the diversions, both here and especially on other web sites and the news shows.

But I am a realist. Have you noticed how much meaningful legislation gets through the House lately? We have a very slim chance to get anything meaningful done, do you really think dividing our focus will accomplish anything?

We will end up arguing among ourselves and the enemy knows it. They will sit on the sidelines and laugh at us, just like every other time.

I already see our chance slipping away, thanks for your help.

[The Straight Story]

4. So guns have a magical power to make people do things but other things don't?

Please, go on.

[white_wolf]

6. No, but guns enable it.

First of all, there is no credible link between video games and violence. They haven't established correlation. First of all even if there is some like, which is extremely debatable, without guns we wouldn't have gotten very far. A guy tried something similar in China with a knife and wounded a 22 kids, but none were killed.

[JackRiddler]

61. No. Guns are the indispensable part for actually killing people.

Not that you can't kill someone with something other than a gun, but killing many people while on a rampage is almost impossible without one. See: China school stabbings, same day as CT.

[ComplimentarySwine]

71. You mean like

the Bath massacre in 1929, the OKC federal building bombing in the '90s...9/11? What are you thinking?

[JackRiddler]

92. The casualties from bombings in the US are dwarfed by gun killings.

[quaker bill]

63. They create a tactical advantage, which is what they were invented for.

I believe that tactical advantage plays pretty large in this sort of psychosis.

It is not magic, it is simply an intended function of the device.

[Warpy]

5. Some people just have a major screw loose

What we need to do is focus on slowing them down when they decide to act out, not suck all the fun out of life for the majority.

[Chemisse]

26. Good analysis.

Just slow them down so people have a fighting chance. Make it hard to get the guns and make the guns slower from one shot to the next.

And build up societal support for mental health services while we are at it.

[backscatter712]

40. Amen. Don't tell me I can only drink milk because a baby can't eat steak. n/t

[valerief]

7. Yes, because the worse thing in the world would be to not have more shoot-em-up and

blow-em-up pictures.

You know, Hollywood can willfully make the change, the same way they did with the Hays code. Fewer kill-torture-people-for-fun pictures won't kill them.

[Bicoastal]

11. Excuse me for enjoying The Godfather.

Which has plenty of shooting up and blowing up.

Seriously? You want to bring back the Hays code? Say goodbye to 9 out of 10 of the last half century's best movies, then.

[valerief]

13. Of course, I don't want the Hays code. I want Hollywood to take responsibility.

And I hated The Godfather.

If 9 out of 10 of the best movies are gun-bomb-kill movies, then that explains our gun violence culture, doesn't it?

[KittyWampus]

17. The Godfather doesn't have a gun providing a happy ending. Quite the opposite.

[Bicoastal]

22. Casablanca does.

Rick shoots Major Strasser and saves both his friends and himself.

All thanks to a fictional bullet from a fictional gun. Boo hoo.

[white_wolf]

14. So how many great films would we lose under your system?

Lord of the Rings has a lot of violence so that's gone. Star Wars has violence and killing so that's gone. The Godfather is gone. I think you get the point.

[valerief]

16. Wow, 3 I could care less about!!! nt

[white_wolf]

18. Those 3 are widely considered great and influential films.

The vast majority of move goers and film critics would strongly disagree with your views.

[valerief]

21. Critics are paid by the movie industry and moviegoers can only see what's available not

what's possible.

BTW, I'm not looking for a fight with you. I really think Hollywood could start producing some quality films instead of gore. But, OF COURSE, the main culprit in our culture of violence is the WEAPONS industry. They hold 60% of the blame. 38% of the blame is held by our legislators who fail to protect us.

[Bicoastal]

25. Critics are PAID by the movie industry?!

Well, thanks for that. I'll definitely remember to look around for you when I want the opinion of someone who doesn't know what they're talking about.

[ThatPoetGuy]

29. Agreeing about the weapons industry... BUT

The movies he mentioned are wonderful, particularly the Godfather, which offers some of the most nuanced and sensitive portrayals of immigrant communities one is likely to find anywhere. It has emotion of the Shakespearean variety, and empathy on a Sinclair Lewis scale.

[valerief]

36. And gratuitous violence. That's the part I don't like. I hate horror, too, because of the gore.

Implied violence is one thing. I have no problem with that. Some non-gory violence can be okay, too. But I've never been a fan of the realistic stuff, especially when it's overkill. It has a creepy fetish quality that grosses me out.

As for those 3 movies...
I don't like fantasy. I don't like zoom-zoom, boom-boom movies. I don't like gore. I don't have to like them, and that leaves a lot of room for what I do like.

A small point, but you didn't say you liked The Godfather for its brutal violence.

[Fumesucker]

42. Shakespeare has violence, the Odyssey has violence, Beowulf has violence

The Iliad has violence, War and Peace has violence, Catch 22 has violence, Michener has violence, the Bible has a great deal of violence.

There are a great many tales considered cultural touchstones for us that are remarkably violent.

[ThatPoetGuy]

44. I don't think the Godfather has gratuitous violence,

any more than history or Shakespeare does.

Violence isn't glorified in it. It exists, and it existed, as part of history. Small-time guys struggling to make a living, and other people, also wanting a living, when immigrants weren't likely to receive concern from the police.

In the Godfather, violence tears people apart. One character is brutally gunned down, and then his father weeps over his corpse. "My boy," he says. "My beautiful boy. They killed my beautiful boy." I weep at that scene.

The brutality isn't made pretty. It isn't slick, flashy, or fun.

The consequences of violence are shown as real, tragic, and overwhelming. Which is a good message about violence.

I enjoy some boom-boom escapist fantasy, but I also enjoy classical theatre. And the Godfather is closer to Antigone than Star Wars.

[Chemisse]

31. But other people DO enjoy them, a lot.

If anything really needs to be banned, it is first person shooter video games in which the victims are other humans.

It seems to me that playing such games would loosen a protective inhibition in us, and make it a bit easier to contemplate shooting people - for real.

[Codeine]

34. The "victims' in first-person-shooters are not other humans.

There are no "victims" because there is no killing. It's a game.

Also, no orcs are actually slaughtered during a game of D&D and no nations are actually invaded in the course of an afternoon of Risk.

[Chemisse]

52. Oh gee, I thought they were real. Duh!

Did you even read what I wrote?

I love video games, but skirt away from anything that requires me to kill another human (yes, I do understand that the little figure on the screen is not real, so not really dead). I feel it can soften a boundary in our minds, the one that makes it absolutely forbidden to kill another human being. And if that boundary is not firm, it could be easier for people to kill, rather like a desensitization.

So when I play WoW, for example, I always make a human character, so I kill mostly orcs and other creatures.

[white_wolf]

53. But wait when you kill the Forsaken you are killing humans.

Yes, I'm just kidding, but seriously go Horde!

[Chemisse]

67. Lol!

[RedCappedBandit]

59. You play WoW but want to ban FPS games?

[Chemisse]

75. Exactly. I don't mind violence in video games.

I just have concerns about a very specific type of violence, that which has the player doing things that simulate killing other people in real life.

I had the same concerns about the way young kids could run people over in Grand Theft Auto. A lot of driving is done on autopilot and we rely on our own intense aversions to doing things like crashing the car or hitting a pedestrian. What happens if that aversion is weakened?

I don't know if anybody has ever studied it; it's just a concern of mine.

[RedCappedBandit]

77. Pretty hypocritical

WoW is almost entirely based on killing other people-like simulations. WoW PVP is directly comparable to FPS PVP.

[white_wolf]

90. Yeah nearly every PC in every MMO from WoW to TOR is a mass murderer.

[backscatter712]

39. You must be congenitally incapable of having any sort of fun. n/t

[white_wolf]

46. I was thinking the same thing. n/t

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

51. So your answer is censorship is ok, as long as you don't like it.

Awesome. Let's put you in charge of all that is art.

[SummerSnow]

58. every cowboy movie ..

[backscatter712]

38. Gee, the Hays code was wonderful for free expression.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_Picture_Production_Code

Some of the things that were prohibited or restricted from being depicted by the Hays code included white slavery (but not black slavery), miscegenation, criticism of religion (note, members of the clergy were not to be depicted as villains - so much for the Three Musketeers...), depiction of drugs or even liquor consumption (so much for Trainspotting), etc. etc. etc.

No. Fuck movie codes, fuck comic codes, fuck video game codes of content.

Most of all...

FUCK CENSORSHIP!!!

[99Forever]

8. I might put a "faux" in front of moral panic.

It's nothing but a smokescreen. It's just not that difficult to unravel. No matter how over the top insane someone is, without a gun, they CANNOT go on a shooting rampage. PERIOD.

Those that still don't get it, see my signature line.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

88. Good sig line...

and totally and completely correct.

The other dumbass comparison I received today on Facebook was the old canard about rocks and sticks can be just as deadly as guns, yet we don't regulate them.

My reply: I'll make you a deal. We'll go to war. Your army gets sticks and rocks and my army gets assault rifles. Care to bet on who's going to win?

[LiveNudePolitics]

10. Can you imagine a slow guns movement?

Ya know, similar to slow foods? It sounds silly at first, but entertain the idea for a moment. The gun enthusiast could rediscover the muzzle loader or musket, or what ever is least likely to cause a high body count in case of freakout. That way, they can still enjoy their toys that go boom, and we can feel a bit safer.

[Ztolkins]

65. Bring back the musket shot, I always say.

[KittyWampus]

12. I'm not blaming comic books. I'm not even blaming the hypocrites who say they want peace but enjoy

violent media/entertainment.

But it is a matter of fact we live in a culture immersed in violence. Part of changing that is examining our own behavior and being honest and willing to change ourselves.

&playnext=1&list=PLC4F419EA8F5967B8&feature=results_video

[Bicoastal]

19. KittyWampus, YOU'RE the hypocrite.

Ever seen "The Godfather?" Or "Star Wars?" Or even "Casablanca?"

By some metric, those are all violent movies featuring plenty of guns and death and dying. If you've seen any one of these and enjoyed them, you're clearly adding to the "overall climate of violence in our culture." If not, please rattle off a list of movies or tv shows or books you've enjoyed in your lifetime, and I assure you I can find one in which someone dies after being shot by a gun.

How dare you!

[KittyWampus]

30. LOL! As a matter of fact I and many of my friends have all matured to the point where we consciously

choose NOT to watch anything we don't want to see in our own lives.

And as I posted above about the Godfather… a gun doesn't provide a happy ending. I saw the original Star Wars when it first came out. I'm a lot older now. Never saw any of the others in the series. And while I've seen Casablanca, haven't watched it in years and wouldn't bother now. I read the Hobbit and enjoyed it. Couldn't stand the Trilogy.

And actually, I will admit to occasionally being the hypocrite, I will openly admit it. I at least am not afraid to examine my behavior and find myself lacking. But at least I'm not in denial. That's the difference between us. I try to be honest and willing/open to change. You are not.

[Bicoastal]

35. I am honest. And I will not change my tastes in entertainment for you or anyone else.

The only person who gets to determine what I think is good art and what is bad art--yes, ART--is myself.

I may be a big fat hyprocrite in other ways, but not this one. I can advocate peace and non-violence during the day and watch "Die Hard" at night. And you know why?

Because "Die Hard" is a MOVIE. And a damn good one at that. If everyone on Earth was to watch "Die Hard" (if they haven't already) would it be a more violent place? Probably not. But they'd all be huge Alan Rickman fans.

[white_wolf]

43. So tell me how do you feel about classic literurtarue such as...

The Iliad, Odyssey, Beowulf, Macbeth, the vast majority of Shakespeare in general. All those works contain violence, hell Beowulf glorifies warfare and the idea of the warrior. Should we get rid of those as well?

[Fumesucker]

47. I for the most part don't like really violent shows and I'm not a gamer

But I watched and greatly enjoyed Breaking Bad and I guarantee you I don't want anything that happened in that show in my life.

I've also enjoyed the new Sherlock Holmes with Benedict Cumberbatch show from the BBC but I don't want a bunch of murders in my life.

On the other hand I loathe soap operas or anything remotely resembling reality shows.

[Bicoastal]

15. People blame "Culture" because they know it gets them off the hook.

They get to point fingers at their favorite bugaboos, movies or music or video games or comic books, and then be totally shocked, SHOCKED when it turns out that the culture won't change just because they say it should. Then they can go back to doing absolutely nothing about the problem until the next shooting.

In reality, it's an excuse for not taking political action on mental health or gun control. Why do you THINK Limbaugh's doing it?

[white_wolf]

20. Why do you THINK Limbaugh's doing it?

Because he's getting paid. Limbaugh does nothing on matter of principle, but I see your point.

[KittyWampus]

24. LOL! DU'ers have been pointing fingers for the last several days. Culture changed re: smoking

about drunk driving, gay marriage.

Culture won't change just because a few of us say it should. It will change when those who profess to really wanting Peace are willing to work for it in their own lives as well. When the change comes not because laws are put on the books but because people's mindset changes.

If Rush wants to entirely blame the culture of violence:

#1. he's PARTIALLY right the same way a stopped clock is occasionally correct.
#2. He can include his hate-mongering spewage as part of the that very culture.

[Bicoastal]

27. You're using "Culture" to mean anything you want it to mean at this point.

Just thought I'd point that out.

You bring up violent movies, which are purely entertainment; then you bring up drunk driving, which is a legal matter; then you lump in gay marriage, which is also legal in nature but involves changing social attitudes, and...

Oh, whatever. You clearly don't want to change anything; you just want to scold people for doing things you have absolutely no control over.

[DJ13]

33. Why do you THINK Limbaugh's doing it?

To distract from the negotiations on the mythical, Republican created 'fiscal cliff'.

Notice how few MSM "reports" and even threads around here there are about that now?

And yet, the elites are contemplating negotiating away some portions of our historic FDR enacted safety net, and.................... the subject suddenly gets turned to another horrible shooting.

We should be capable of talking about both issues at the same time, but thats not happening right now, and all of us will be the losers when they add two years to Medicare eligibility, and move the already too low SS COLA over to the even lower chained CPI.

[JI7]

37. do people in Canada, Japan, watch Batman ?

[white_wolf]

41. Yes.

If you want I can find the actual stats to back it up, but the Dark Knight Rises was released worldwide and Batman comics are sold worldwide. Batman is so popular in Japan that there are manga (Japanese comic books) written by Japaneses writers about him.

[Bicoastal]

45. Isn't it funny...

...that the more and more internationally widespread our so-called "culture of violence" gets, the more other countries distinguish themselves for NOT having the spree killing incidents we are plagued with?

If our culture really IS deadly, the virus would have spread to other countries by now.

[BattyDem]

54. Exactly!

Every other Democracy in the world has the same movies, the same comic books and the same video games. Do you know what else they have? Strict gun control laws and universal health care because they think it should be much easier to get mental health treatment than it is to get an assault rifle!

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

49. We can walk and chew gum at the same time.

There are people who own guns and don't shoot and kill people.

There are people who play video games and don't shoot and kill people.

There are people who watch violent films and read comic books and don't shoot and kill people.

Some people can't handle some or all of these things.

We can have a discussion about any and all of these things.

But there are some people who shouldn't be in the presence of certain things, and this kid was one of them.

[REP]

50. There are killers with high body counts all the time - but usually one at a time

Andrei Chikatilo killed at least 53 people, mostly children, using a knife ... but mostly one at a time over the course of 12 years. Gary Ridgway killed between 71 and 90 women, one at a time using his hands or a piece of rope, that most people didn't care that much about.

I could go on; I could cite spree killers like Charles Starkweather and Charles Whitman, who committed their atrocities in what most people think of as the innocent "good old days" (if segregation, McCarthyism, duck-and-cover Cold War scare drills etc are conveniently forgotten in the mist of nostalgia), but by god, Lucy and Ricky slept in separate beds and Joe Friday patrolled the streets.

Some seriously disturbed fucks want to die and take a bunch of people with them. Guns do make it easier for them to do that, no doubt about it. Some sick fucks want to kill a lot of people, one at a time. Culture isn't to blame. It'd be so nice if there were one thing that was easy to spot and fix and say "done!" so neither type of sick fuck can kill huge numbers of people.

Life ain't ever that easy.

[LanternWaste]

55. one television show is not and cannot be, in and of itself, The Reason.

One film, one comic book, one video game, one television show is not and cannot be, in and of itself, The Reason.

They are however, quite illustrative of what we are collectively entertained by-- sex, violence and dysfunction are quite fun according to many people.

That's not drinking your little sugary-drink and laying blame on any one thing... it's merely an observation of what we demand from the entertainment market.

[riverbendviewgal]

56. I wrote to Canadian Tire

the national retail store . They sell airguns that are replicas of banned guns in Canada.

http://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/browse/5/SportsRec/SoftAir/SoftAirguns.jsp

I wrote to them and asked them if they thought it not wise to sell air guns that are replicas of guns that are actually restricted in my country in light of what happened in the USA last Friday.


I have friends who have a 7 year old who will be getting a bb machine gun for xmas...After Friday I feel very uncomfortable that our children are being encouraged to be violent..

I can see having a bb air rifle to be introduced to target shooting or hunting...but machine guns are for killing people.

[L0oniX]

60. Ever hear of imprinting?

[AtheistCrusader]

64. I think the media has gotten the message on the coverage.

Initially it was bad, but it's gotten better. Focus is more on the victims, but still... has problems. I'm not morally panicked about it, but we can handle it a lot better than we are.

&feature=player_embedded

[KT2000]

68. Garbage in - garbage out!

whether it is gun worshipping, the numbing effect of violent media AND video games, the drumbeat of hate from RW media - it all plays a role.
When does the pendulum swing to a world that encourages us all to be our best selves? Now our society is swirling down the drain.

[6502]

70. []=> white_wolf, you are 111% right!!!

Last edited Tue Dec 18, 2012, 12:03 AM - Edit history (3)

white_wolf, you are 111% right!!!

white_wolf, everybody, we must build that solution!

I do believe one great than myself has already put it best:

[cantbeserious]

73. Right On - Guns Are The Root Of The Problem And They Should Be Outlawed Now

eom

[Shivering Jemmy]

81. Ok you are sick of morals panics

We're all sick of something I guess.

[FreeBC]

85. If Republicans want to alienate even more of our young people by blaming video games

then I'm fine with it.

[Odin2005]

86. I'm suprised it took that long for the anti-video game idiots to pop up.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

87. They have the same video games in Japan, the same movies in Germany...

Yet nobody there is spraying bullets around the shopping mall or the elementary school.

And just for my dear friend Mike Huckabee, they have gay marriage in six nations in the EU and compulsory school prayer is banned everywhere. Still the bullets aren't flying.

What's common denominator in all these countries?