Do CCL folks seriously believe their handgun...

[NNguyenMD]

with maybe 1 or 2 clips can take a nut case experienced in handling an AR-15 with a bunch of high capacity clips.

I can see that gun fight ending real soon.

They might be able to hold off a homicidal gunman ong enough so that THEY can get away. But its not like they're all highly trained snipers who can hit anything while getting shot at and a bunch of people running for their lives.l

Then the next thing you'll hear is the gun lobby advocating carrying assaults weapons in public sanctuaries! And then the arms race will just keep escalating.

[AlexSatan]

1. How many bullets

do you think it takes to take a person down?

[NNguyenMD]

6. Depending on the caliber and where you hit, maybe 1

Thats being generous. But what if they're all coked up or high on PCP, and they're rushing you AND shooting at you, you think you're gonna get that head shot in on one try? While you're getting shot at, while folks are running all over around, what if they're two shooters? You think CCL folks ever plan for that?

They can probably hold their own to save their own lives, but I'm not fooled for a second that they'll save anyone else's.

[former9thward]

22. What if there are 20 shooters?

And they have RPGs? No way you can hold them off! Please come back to reality.

[NNguyenMD]

24. North Hollywood bank robbery shoot out 1997

With over 300,000,000 firearms in the US and plenty or psychos out there I wouldn't be surprised.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Hollywood_shootout

Crashing jetliners into the WTC and Petagon, I'm sure that was far from reality at one point too.

[Recursion]

27. The shootout where only the bank robbers were killed?

Two men with automatic weapons fail to kill anybody, cops with semi-automatics kill both of them.

[NNguyenMD]

32. So much good all those hand guns did to stop them

I wonder what would have happened if someone with a CCL intervened?

Probably end up getting themselves or others killed.

[OldDem2012]

7. Just curious...how many bullets will you actually be able to fire while under the stress of....

....being fired at by someone with an assault rifle while wearing a Kevlar vest?

Don't answer right away...think about it.

[NNguyenMD]

14. With or without the element of surprise?

[AlexSatan]

19. Assuming I am not in the first group of targets

like the teachers that ran to the shooting and were killed, probably quite a few. Ever been hit by a bullet while wearing a vest? It still hurts. And obviously I would fire from cover.

Remember, this guy kept shooting until authorities were almost to him.

[NNguyenMD]

23. I believe that a well trained CCL citizen with

a law enforcement or combat military background would probably hit the perpetrator with some accuracy.

But to ask a school teacher, or your everyday joe with no experience to take that responsibility is far from reality.

Soldiers still die from friendly fire, and they're among the best in urban combat.

[AlexSatan]

26. It's to asking them to do it

It's allowing them to do it.

And you have to remember that the person they are going up against is not a trained professional either.

[Travis_0004]

33. I agree

Some people make it sound like we want to issue a gun to every teacher, simply those who would like one. They should have to get a CCW liscnese, then go through additional traning with their local police department. There was an assistant principal who captured the suspect (and the principal had a handgun vs the other guys rifle).

There are certainly teachers out there who shoot guns as a hobby. And there are some who have never shot a gun in their life. Nobody is saying those teachers should be armed.

I have a friend who is a part time police officer, and teaches a class in a college. He is not allowed a firearm. I certainly think he is responsible enough to carry a gun at school if the law allowed it, although I realize that is a very extreme example.

[onehandle]

2. They all think they are Dirty Harry. nt

[DrDan]

3. +1 - exactly right! (or John Wayne . . .)

[OldDem2012]

8. They are truly delusional. nt.

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

4. Trained police officers never die in the line of service....

Said no one ever

[slackmaster]

5. The few people I know who have permits carry their weapons only for self-defense

They have no delusions about any kind of heroic intervention against someone who has gone amok.

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

9. i think the question is in regards to having armed teachers

[slackmaster]

11. I think armed, uniformed security guards would be a whole lot more appropriate than armed teachers

As a general matter of policy.

[Sekhmets Daughter]

17. Because what every parent

wants for their children is for them to have a teacher capable of killing another human being...<<sigh>>

[Recursion]

30. Well, the one "armed teacher" case I know of ended with the teacher subduing the student

Most people I know who carry do so in the hope of avoiding violence, not participating.

[NNguyenMD]

12. I just think that the argument of having more

CCL folks in public places is the end all the stopping mass shootings is absurd and nothing but a fantasy.

[slackmaster]

13. I agree with you, NNguyenMD.

[NNguyenMD]

16. I'm glad we agree

[slackmaster]

18. Thanks. I hope you understand that people who get permits don't all believe they are out to save...

...the world.

I'm sure that some percentage feel that way, but I've personally never met one. Reasons are varied, but they're all personal and based on specific situations and experiences.

[PA Democrat]

10. There is a reason that SWAT team members train constantly.

Did you catch this video posted of an experiment in how well an average person would perform confronting a gunman in a public setting? People watch too many Rambo type movies.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022007218

[Warpy]

15. Shootouts in a densely packed group of panicky people

are not going to end well and will result in a higher body count.

Slowing the shooter down by reducing the number of rounds per minute and the size of the clips would give people more time to act, either by tackling him, smacking him over the head with a heavy object, or any other means.

Slowing these squirrels down might just be the best we can do at this point.

[guardian]

20. In a stand off fight or

one on one -- no.

But in a crowded mall, theather, school where the killer is dealing with dozen or hundreds of targets at some point the killer will not be focused on you, or turn their back, or pause to clear a jam. Then yes.

By the way. They are not called 'clips'. You dimish your credibility by saying 'clips'. You might as well as say 'thingy'.

[NNguyenMD]

21. You've got to wonder if eventually the mass shooter

of tomorrow will just anticipate having to deal with one, two, or multiple CCL folks + first responders by coming prepared with more guns or body armor. They might even coerce another psycho on joining them.

What do you propose a well intentioned, albeit completely out matched, CCL citizen do then?

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. I welcome your fantasy.

Enjoy it.

[bluestate10]

25. Two of the last three people in mass shootings have worn body armor.

A handgun is not going to take a person in body armor out unless the handgun owner is incredibly accurate and hits a spot that is not protected. What is more likely is the handgun owner will distract the person with the assault weapon long enough to hopefully get help. The handgun may save lives due to the distraction, but yelling insults at the person with the assault weapon would likely save as many lives.

[Recursion]

28. Hitting someone with body armor on still knocks them down and winds them

Which would give people time, which would be the point.

[bossy22]

31. Maybe, maybe not, it depends

You have a misunderstanding of what it means to carry a firearm for personal protection. I don't believe I am a guardian, I don't believe my gun is a magic wand that makes me invincible and protects the ones around me 100%. If a guy started shooting randomly at people in front of me at a mall I'm not 100% sure what I would do- no one is- not even police officers.

What I do know is that having handgun gives me a few more options and might just increase my chance of survival in that situation.