Help me out here. 2 dems co-sponsored the bill to kill the postal service?

[boomer55]

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/109/hr6407#overview

3 cosponsors (2D, 1R) (show)
Davis, Danny [D-IL7]
McHugh, John [R-NY23]
Waxman, Henry [D-CA30]


so isnt it our own team that shot us in the foot?

[badtoworse]

1. The Postal Office is going broke

Recognizing that shouldn't be a partisan issue. Cutting Saturday delivery will save a substantial amount of money which the Post Office must do to survive.

[Drale]

2. The Post Office is going broke because of what Repukes did in the 90's

It was a learn term plan to kill the "socialist" postal service.

[X_Digger]

3. Well, and 2006..

.. the whole 'must pre-fund pensions for the next 75 years' really moved the needle from black to red.

Absent that, they'd be at a $1.5B surplus.

[boomer55]

4. the problem I'm having with this prefund thing is it was consponsored by dems

and it passed unanimously in the senate.

I had though it was a complete republican scheme and now I'm very disappointed and confused.

[busterbrown]

17. Who gives a shit??

There are plenty of treasonous dems. out there that republicans rely on...

[badtoworse]

6. I think I read that the move should save $2 billion a year

That's a good enough reason for me.

[Travis_0004]

29. Where do you get your numbers at?

The post office lost about 15 billion last year.

https://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/16/us/politics/postal-service-reports-a-nearly-16-billion-loss.html?_r=0

My understanding is they have to pay about 5.6 billion a year to prefund retirement. If that is the case, they still would have lot about 10 billion last year.

[hay rick]

65. Operating loss was $4.8 billion- not $10 billion.

The Postal Service failed (for the first time) to pay the $5.5 billion health care pre-funding ransom note last year. That amount is still due, so the new amount due for pre-funding is $11.1 billion...

[cali]

11. Do you pay your bills on line? I do as do a hell of a lot of others

Do you use email more than snail mail? You don't think that has anything to do with it? The fact is that the P.O. has far fewer customers than it used to.

[HiPointDem]

52. By design. Congress gave a big chunk of their business to UPS & FedEx.

[xxqqqzme]

5. The USPS is going broke

because of Congress. Postal Accountability and Enhancement Act of 2006 (one of those w era lame duck bills) was put in place to make its demise a certainty. If not for that act the USPS would have a 1.5 billion surplus.

[busterbrown]

7. Republicans want the P.O. to close so fucking badly..................

Already setting up private companies to deliver mail on a non scheduled basis." Monday...Maybe tues. perhaps wed"....”We have to wait and see what works best for us."

[badtoworse]

9. Do you have any specifics?

My wife and I do most of our business online and actually send very few letters in a year. At least 90% of what shows up in our mail box goes right in the garbage without being read or many times, even opened. Seems like a big waste on a number of levels.

I'd be open to alternatives.

[busterbrown]

10. Yea, Give back the money that the republicans stole from them in the 90s.

You speak a little selfishly, Millions of Americans don’t own computers and if businesses still want to send out mailers they are doing for a reason...They still make money off them..

[badtoworse]

13. You didn't answer my question

Under any scenario I can envision, people wouild still have mail service available to them, maybe even with Saturday delivery. Companies would still be able to send out junk mail if they want to pay the cost.

Why does the government need to be involved?

[busterbrown]

16. Very simple...

So that the privatizing of mail distribution doesn’t follow the model of the health care industry.
Have you ever not had one of your letters or bills not get to their destination on time....?
What is to stop them from completely ripping off the public? Which they will do.

Sounds to me that your either selfish(again) because you don’t need the system or your for less and less govt..

[badtoworse]

19. What do you consider on time?

I've had greeting cards take 4 or 5 days to get from northern NJ to Long Island a number of times. For NJ to Florida, I plan on a week. To me, that's not on time.

[busterbrown]

22. I think your experience is not the norm.... P.O. cutbacks could now be starting to effect time.

A lot of P.0s have cut back hrs and employees. By the way, did you ever wonder how well privatized mail services would handle your timely needs..As well as privatized healthcare companies handle our needs..

[mikeysnot]

27. Call up Fed Ex

tell them you have 47 cents on an addressed envelope and tell them you want to have them pick it up and deliver it across the nation for you. See what they tell you.

[badtoworse]

47. When I want to be sure it get's there, that's what I do.

Fedex provides a premium service and I don't mind paying for it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

51. So does the postal service

And many a times it delivers FedEx packages that are shipped priority under the last mile service. Why pay FedEx premium price? Oh they are private, therefore "better and more efficient."

It was tragic when a neighbor started screaming at mailman for delivering her FedEx packet.

It took twenty minutes to calm her down. Oh next thing we heard was the phone call demanding money back. She paid premium, to be delivered by FedEx...did I mention she no longer uses FedEx?

[badtoworse]

55. That would not have bothered me

It was probably the most efficient way to get the package there. I've never personally seen it happen though.

[wryter2000]

57. They'll laugh at you when you ask them to do it for under 50 cents n/t

n/t

[badtoworse]

60. I know what Fedex costs

Other than Christmas and birthday cards, there is very little I send by mail. Just about every transaction I do is done electronically.

If I do have to send something that is time sensitive, I don't mind paying $10 - $20.

[wryter2000]

76. Well, I do

I don't care to spend $10 to send a Christmas card.

Your position is ridiculous, and no one's buying it.

[mikeysnot]

77. Good for you!

Now tell that to someone that lives in the middle of nowhere...

But for others, not so much.

How about someone old, or a child sending his grandmother a thank you card for her presents.

Family and friends sending Christmas cards to each other.

Birthday cards.

People that don't have internet to pay their billing online.

The interned and on fixed incomes. You know people that cannot pay 5.00 for the same 47 cents with UPS.

Please put your money where your mouth is and call Fed ex and tell them you want them to do a card pickup for 47 cents and mail it to a rural area. I am curious how much you are willing to spend.

And about that comment about "I want to be sure it get's there"...

I send out everything via mail. I had a stamped let to my mail person and never had a problem for the 12 years I have been here.

Do you work for Fed Ex?

BTW what is "get's"?

[Bandit]

18. Why does government need to be involved?

I would say mainly because it is written in the Constitution....

[badtoworse]

23. I believe Congress is empowered to establish the Post Office

Does the constitution require Congress to exercise that power? Does it specify how the power is exercised? I would say the Congress has great latitude here and could subcontract the service or greatly reduce the level of service if it chose to do so.

[nadinbrzezinski]

32. In other words you want to bust the union.

Just come out and say it.

[badtoworse]

48. The union has nothing to do with it

When technology becomes outmoded, inefficient and more expensive than newer technology, it should be replaced. Would you have stuck with 78 rpm vinyl records because the workers that produced them were unionized?

[nadinbrzezinski]

49. Yup, you want to bust it

Would you like to get rid of the Constitution while at it?

FYI, USPS workers do the exact same job at their processing plants...they get paid minimum. That's ok with you?

[nadinbrzezinski]

31. Because it is an enumerated power and duty in the Constitution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postal_Clause

What other parts of the Constitution would you like to get rid off as obsolete?

I usually refrain fron mentioning that Daryl Issa used to make this argument until staff pointed this to him...repeteadly.

[badtoworse]

50. Where does it say Congress has a duty?

[nadinbrzezinski]

53. Read the fracking document.

I must say, you are denser than Issa..welcome to my ignore list. When congressman Isssa gets it...

Bye.

[badtoworse]

58. I did. Unless I missed it, the word "duty" wasn't there.

[blm]

37. National postal service was written into the Constitution. GOP wants it privatized,

just as they want education privatized, and military privatized - it's called fascism, and the GOP has been co-opted by the fascists over the last 4 decades.

[nadinbrzezinski]

12. You realize rural areas rely on the PO

And net coverage is so bad they still use snail mail?

[badtoworse]

14. I have a summer camp in the Adirondacks

That's about as rural as you can get. Besides the Post Office, we have Fedex, UPS and very good broad band.

[nadinbrzezinski]

15. You mean a tourist attraction.

I cover my local back country. My local back country has good access in tourist attractions, after that...not so much. To the point local residents at times use satellites (when they can afford them) to do Internet. Yup, Julian and Ramona have access...sta Ysabel. Not so much.

As to DHL and FedEx, they will not deliver to Julian, or rather they do...but the surcharge is insane.

[badtoworse]

25. In the long run, snail mail will become obsolete.

It makes no sense to provide the same level of service for mail service today that we did 30 years ago. With far fewer customers, the cost will go up and the service will be reduced. To me, that's inevitable.

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. What other things do you want to get rid off

I will translate this for you...this is union busting and privatization...yes, it is that simple.

UPS is drooling for the market share, and let rural area seniors not get meds...since shit, it's obsolete.

It's not just you dear, have an excelent day.

[Travis_0004]

33. He is correct.

Mail volume in 2000 was at an all time high of about 103,000 (millions).

In 2012 it was 69,000, which is quite a steep decline, and it will only get worse.

Even if congress eliminated the requirement to prefund its pensions, the post office would still loose money.

I have never gotten mail on sat that I had to have that day, I don't see a big deal if I have to wait an extra day.

Also, the elimination of sat delivery applies to first class mail, so medicine and other stuff sent priority will still be delivered on sat. And if done right, there is no need to fire any union employees. As they retire or leave for other jobs, just don't replace them.

[nadinbrzezinski]

34. Conveniently ignore

The rise in package handling, and the 2006 act.



And thank you for admitting you are for union busting. That is refreshing.

[Travis_0004]

35. Packages will still be delivered on Sat.

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. And you are for Union busting

Thanks for admitting that. Who do you think processes those packages? The Holy Spirit?

[Travis_0004]

38. My assumption is the Post office employees will handle them.

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. Why do you think a union was formed?

I suspect you do not know the union was formed because people could not make ends meet

You are a union buster...period.

[Travis_0004]

40. I don't think I said anywhere I want to get rid of the union or cut wages

I don't think there is a need to fire a single postal employee. Every single person who likes his job should be free to keep it, as long as they are doing a good job.

I am fine with not replacing employees as they retire, or quit.

This is quite common in many businesses. The post office has reduced staff many times as things become more efficient. I'm sure we could hire a ton more postal employees if we got rid of the sorting machines, but I am against this as it would make mail delivery unaffordable and inefficient.

Even if the requirement to prefund retirement was eliminated, the post office would still have a defect. I see nothing wrong with one small change to save billions of dollars a year.

[nadinbrzezinski]

41. Pre funding elimination will go a long way

But you said that new employees did not have to be union. For the record, the postal service is not a closed shop...but I see changing tune.

See, I am the wife of a postal worker...we are living this nightmare. The republicans succeed, we will end in a very bad place...me and the rest of the employees and their families. This is not theory, not one bit.

[Travis_0004]

43. I didn't say that

I never said new employees should be non union.

I also never said that I want to keep the prefunding pension

[nadinbrzezinski]

45. Good...compete change.

Have a good day.

[HiPointDem]

73. did you know usps delivers a substantial number of packages for ups and fedex?

USPS Delivered 30% of FedEx Ground Shipments in FedEx’s Fiscal Fourth Quarter



http://cepobserver.com/2012/06/usps-delivered-30-of-fedex-ground-shipments-in-fedexs-fiscal-fourth-quarter/

so i'm not sure how that 'no saturday delivery' is gonna work out for you folks who live on those 'unprofitable' (to the for-profit companies) that get your online garbage delivered by usps though you pay fedex.

i.e. subsidized by the usps.

if you want it on saturday you might have to pay a premium.

if usps goes out of business you *will* pay a premium -- for everything.

and i'll be laughing.

[mikeysnot]

28. You are obviously not in

print publication and marketing are you?

PO obsolete.

How obtuse.

[HiPointDem]

56. um, you notice fedex and ups are delivering packages? that's because congress gave that business

to them.

the post office used to do that.

so no, 'snail mail' ain't going to become obsolete, just privatized.

[badtoworse]

61. It's already obsolete in my house.

My wife and I do virtually everything electronicaly. Probably 95% of the mail we get is junk mail and goes straight to the recycle bin. I wish there was a spam filter that could handle paper.

[HiPointDem]

62. you don't order anything online and have it delivered?

[badtoworse]

63. We shop online a lot - usually delivery is UPS or Fedex Ground

We always try to get free shipping and that is usually not by the Post Office. On Monday, I bought some banana plugs online for my audio system and got free shipping - they were delivered today by Fedex.

Twenty years ago, I would get a half dozen or so first class letters a day. Now, we might go a week and not get a single one.

[HiPointDem]

66. Parcel service *is* 'snail mail'. It involves a carrier bringing something to your house, and far

from making it obsolete, the internet has added to that business. FedEx was founded in 1971, a year after Congress made the PO a 'for-profit' corporation in competition with other 'for-profit' corporations. Fed Ex was founded *because* of the reorganization because it opened up more delivery business.

Furthermore, I don't know where you live, but USPS delivers a lot of UPS & Fed Ex packages on routes that those companies find 'unprofitable':

When youUSPS Delivered 30% of FedEx Ground Shipments in FedEx’s Fiscal Fourth Quarter need to ship low-weight packages to residential customers, consider efficient, economical FedEx SmartPost shipping service. By utilizing the U.S. Postal Service® (USPS) for final delivery, FedEx SmartPost reaches every U.S. address, including P.O. boxes and military APO, FPO and DPO destinations. You can even use FedEx SmartPost to ship to Alaska, Hawaii and all U.S. territories.

http://www.fedex.com/us/smart-post/outbound.html

USPS Delivered 30% of FedEx Ground Shipments in FedEx’s Fiscal Fourth Quarter

http://cepobserver.com/2012/06/usps-delivered-30-of-fedex-ground-shipments-in-fedexs-fiscal-fourth-quarter/

So look forward to the cost of delivery going up as USPS disappears.
Currently, I read, UPS charges $8 to deliver what the PO delivers for .44.

Furthermore, the excessive junk mail came out of the same 1970 'profitization' of the PO.

you may not be aware of it, but congress has rolled out a shit-load of legislation that put a ball & chain on the PO; for example:

The 2006 law also specifically prohibited USPS from offering new products that would create “an unfair or otherwise inappropriate competitive advantage for the Postal Service…”

So USPS is now *prohibited" by law from offering new services. The junk-mail thing was similarly orwellian, though i can't remember the details.

http://onthecommons.org/magazine/end-post-office-public-institution


Congress has been purposefully destroying the USPS, step-by-step, for a long time. It's planned, not an accident.

[Laelth]

78. Excellent post. Thanks for compiling some of the facts. n/t

-Laelth

[cali]

20. that is increasingly less true.

Very, very few rural areas in the continental U.S. are uncovered by net coverage. I still don't have cell phone coverage but I've had net coverage for years

I regret that my tiny rural post office is reducing its hours to 4 a day M-F, but people in rural areas are relying less on snail mail.

[HiPointDem]

59. vermont is not representative of rural areas.

[cali]

71. according to who? YOU?

In some ways it's very typical. Like where I live, for instance, in the Northeast Kingdom. Lots of guns. Lots of loggers and farmers. Very poor. Sparse population.

[HiPointDem]

72. it's small: 37-89 miles across, 159 miles long. So you're always within an hours drive of some-

where.

It's middling in population density (67/m2 v. 56 in arkansas v. 40 in oregon v. 24 in nevada v. 5 in wyoming v. 1 in alaska).

it's on the east coast; i live in a community on the west coast within an hour of a major freeway and even then some places nearby only got internet within the last 5-6 years. .

it's slightly higher than the US median in median income (20th).

[Posteritatis]

30. "This isn't important to me, therefore it isn't important." (nt)

[HiPointDem]

54. +1

[Egalitarian Thug]

8. Plus the bill's author, Tom Davis (R-VA) so it was a bipartisan knifing. n/t

[WinkyDink]

21. Is there another civilized nation without a national postal service? This is disgraceful.

[Music Man]

24. I have a hard time understanding why those particular individuals would sponsor such a bill.

Those three cosponsors (Davis, McHugh, and Waxman) have received significant financial support from the Postal Workers Union and the Nation Association of Letter Carriers. Perhaps they were clueless as to the bill's ramifications?

[The Second Stone]

42. Cutting Saturday delivery

is like shutting our highways down one day a week. It will have enormous and catastrophic consequences. Lots of the economy goes on through the US mail.

[brentspeak]

44. Somehow, I don't think you're really a member of "our" team

An actual Democrat here would have noted that the prefunding requirement placed within the 2006 postal "reform" bill wasn't, in fact, part of the House-authored bill, but part of the Senate bill, deliberately inserted by, yes, a Republican (Susan Collins-Maine): http://www.mpcourier.com/article/20111011/DCO01/111019967/0/dco

But the bottom line is this: in 2006, the Republicans controlled both House and Senate, as well as the White House. The Democrats could not prevent the prefunding requirement from being inserted into the the legislation, nor could they have prevented it from being passed and signed into law. Davis and Waxman, actually, used their minority party seat-at-the-table status to rewrite an earlier Republican-written piece of proposed House legislation that would have right away privatized the service right back in 2006. They and the other Democrats were not responsible for the prefunding requirement portion of the bill.


Q.E.D.

[MrSlayer]

46. You're making the mistake of thinking " we" have a team.

Yes. They want to bust the biggest union in the country and get all that money for their greedy Wall Street buddies. That is all this is about.

[HiPointDem]

67. +1. and looks like there's a hell of a lot of so-called democrats who think that's fine & dandy.

but let some schmuck in podunksville nebraska call a woman a 'girl' and they will be all over their shit.

let a little puppy get abused and they will call for a federal investigation.

labor? the public commons?

not interested.

[Freddie Stubbs]

64. 20 Republicans in the House opposed it. Not one single Democrat in the House or Senate voted against

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2005/roll430.xml

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d109:HR00022:@@@R

Perhaps the bill isn't as bad as some people are hysterically purporting.

[HiPointDem]

68. Or perhaps house dems are in the pockets of the corporate interests backing the legislation.

[Freddie Stubbs]

74. Every single one? Including Dennis Kucinich? And Bernie Sanders?

Both of them voted for it.

[brentspeak]

69. Or more likely, as we've always guessed, you're not actually a Democrat

Since the bill was passed six years ago, Democrats have tried repeatedly to amend and even repeal the prefunding requirement, but have been thwarted by Republicans every time:

http://www.apwu.org/news/webart/2011/11-041-hr1351-hr1262-110411.htm

http://www.nalc.org/news/latest/misguided_sept2010.html

So, by logic, if...

a) the Democrats want to repeal the prefunding requirement

and

b) the Republicans are preventing the Democrats from repealing the prefunding requirement

and

c) you say that the prefunding requirement "isn't all that bad" and that Democratic Congress members are "hysterical" for trying to get rid of it

therefore, d) that makes you a what?

[Freddie Stubbs]

75. How hard were they trying? Democrats controlled both chambers of Congress from 2007 to 2011

What does that make me? Someone who is smart enough to know when people are trying to BS me.