It's a boy! Couple reveal sex of their 'gender neutral' kid after five years

[snooper2]

So, I was trying to find an update on the Canadian couple raising a gender neutral child, it's been two years already since those threads LOL...

Ironically enough I found this article dated today on a different couple who have been doing this for 5 years---




It's a boy! Couple reveal sex of their 'gender neutral' kid after five years (long article)
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4075523/Its-a-boy-Couple-reveal-sex-of-their-gender-neutral-kid-after-five-years.html



A COUPLE who concealed the sex of their child and raised it as ‘gender neutral’ for FIVE YEARS have finally revealed - it’s a BOY.
Beck Laxton, 46, and partner Kieran Cooper, 44, decided not to reveal baby Sasha’s gender in the hope it would let its ’real’ personality shine through.

They referred to it as “The Infant” and only allowed their child to play with ’gender-neutral toys’ in their television-free home.

During the first five years of his life, Sasha has alternated between girls’ and boys’ outfits, leaving friends, playmates and relatives guessing.

But Beck and Kieran have finally revealed his masculinity to the world after it became harder to conceal when Sasha started primary school.




“I discovered later that I’d been described as ‘that loony woman who doesn’t know whether her baby is a boy or a girl.’

“And I could never persuade anyone in the group to come round for coffee. They just thought I was mental.


Happy pic here---

[datasuspect]

1. different strokes

for different folks.

[Buzz Clik]

2. +1

What a fun experiment! And your child is your human subject.

[get the red out]

7. Yes

I don't think that pushing that on a child would be any healthier than forbidding them to express themselves as transsexual, if that was the child's reality.

[sibelian]

3. Well.

That's... dedication... I suppose...

[Nye Bevan]

4. Ah, the moronic parents who forced their son to wear a dress.

Hopefully they have finally come to their senses. Now go out and buy your son some toy trucks and a GI Joe.

[cbdo2007]

11. This is the one kid who actually needs a real gun as a toy.

[Orrex]

13. Golly!

[morningfog]

26. What the fuck? Can you explain?

[ecstatic]

122. I lol'd nt

[Luminous Animal]

95. Why do you assume the boy was forced? The article says that he wore both "boys" and "girls" clothing

My nephew loved flowery things and dresses and sparkly shoes. But he also wore denim overalls and jeans. It was only after he started school and people started making fun of him when he wore dresses that he stopped. He did add some flashy things, though. Now that he is 17, and "hip", he's feels he's has a lot more freedom to dress the way he wants and his contemporaries don't give him shit any more. He doesn't care what adults say.

[pnwmom]

115. The boy was trying to please his parents. Who knows what he really thinks?

He probably doesn't even know, because he's achingly eager to please.

Here's a video:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/parents-of-gender-neutral-boy-sasha-post-165350

[Wait Wut]

5. This is not 'gender neutral' parenting.

"...Beck was resolute and encouraged him to play with dolls to hide his masculinity."

"The youngster is also encouraged to wear flowery tops at weekends."

If they truly wanted Sasha to experience a gender-neutral life, they shouldn't have encouraged him to do anything.

I was a tomboy as a child, my son's favorite color was pink up until he was about 8 years old. I didn't tell him to like the color, he just did. My parents were mortified that I liked playing with cars more than dolls. Bottom line, neither of us needed 'encouraging'.

[Pelican]

6. Correct...

They were pushing, and will likely continue to push, their personal views of asexuality on him.

[snooper2]

8. My daughter who is three and a half and her friend who just turned five were playing on Tuesday

I had to take a Texas snotty sick day...

Anyway, I'm outside getting the pool setup for summer and they are over by a patio area I'm working on, just have topsoil down around huge stones for a seating area. They have my daughters little dump truck, are filling it with dirt, and taking it over to her cooking station (one of those wal-mart plastic jobs with the fake oven, stove, cabinets etc.)


They filled up every damn plastic pot and cup it has with dirt and were making "recipes" LOL...

Damn dirt everywhere, had to blow it out with my compressor...


Kids play with whatever is fun

[pnwmom]

59. This kid was being turned into a science project and a political statement

for his parents' sake, not his own.

[Adsos Letter]

75. I agree.

As she is quoted in the article: "...the group...just thought I was mental."

That would be the kindest characterization I would come up with.

[Honeycombe8]

140. I agree. So if he wanted to play with GI Joe, that wasn't allowed. Only a ball or whatever.

That kid is gonna have some kind of identity issue as he grows up.

For one thing, you can't really raise a child gender neutrally. You may think you have. But the parents are not gender neutral themselves, and since they know the gender of the kid, THEY react to him/her differently than they would if he were a different gender.

What's wrong with being a boy or a girl, anyway? So self-involved, the parents are.

[Arkansas Granny]

10. I agree. She was leading him, not letting him make those choices on his own.

That is not being neutral, at all.

[HappyMe]

15. I agree.

Providing a wide array of toys and letting the kid decide what they want to play with is good.

Pushing this 'gender neutral' stuff on the kid and the "hide his masculinity" thing really bothers me.

[unblock]

17. not doing anything is gender conforming, not gender neutral.

unless they somehow 100% insulate him from all societal gender cues, ignoring the situation is tantamount to endorsing the norm.

it's pretty much like pretending your kid won't be a racist or a sexist if you totally ignore the situation. kids will pick up on societal cues, and if you want to do anything other than tag along, you have to push back one way or another.

no tv is a big help in that department, but soon enough the kid would see enough other boys wearing blue and girls wearing pink and figure it out himself.

then again if she couldn't arrange playdates because everyone thought she was wacko, maybe he really was sufficiently isolated, so that he actually did get minimal cues. then again, there's always family....


not saying this is a wise parenting technique, just saying that not encouraging him to do anything wouldn't really be gender neutral parenting.

[pnwmom]

107. And encouraging him to hide his gender when among other people

is not good parenting.

The message a small child would get is that there's something wrong with being a boy. He's not old enough to be a philosopher or a sociologist. All he knew is that his mothers wanted him to cover up part of who he is. And whether his mother likes it or not, he's got a boy's body.

[lumberjack_jeff]

112. Exactly n/t

[Cleita]

18. I had a little boy friend when I was six who liked to come over

and play dolls with me, right down to the tea party. This was back in the forties and actually I don't remember parents having a snit about it. Some of the little girls liked to play baseball with the boys and they were known as tomboys.

[KittyWampus]

21. Oh, I remember a sad incident. At craft store I was looking at colored markers when a Mom & son came

Last edited Thu May 2, 2013, 03:20 PM - Edit history (1)

and stood beside me. Lots and lots of colors to choose from. Mom asked her son to pick his favorite color>> he picked out a nice vivid pink and she put it back and said "that's not for boys". I was so sad for the rest of the day and wanted to badly to buy that marker and give it to the kid. Still makes me sad to think about it.

[Wait Wut]

24. He probably felt like I did when...

...my parents wouldn't let me play drums because that was 'for boys'. They made me take violin, instead. I sucked at violin.

[marions ghost]

36. Now to me

that is child abuse.

Teaching a child that the color pink is "not for him"--this is CRAZY.

All the guys in my family wear pink and purple shirts, and LIKE them.

But this poor kid never will...no pink for you!

(Conversely nobody tells girls they can't wear blue).

[blueamy66]

178. Really? That is child abuse?

Wow, just wow....be very careful what words you choose to use....it's 2013

[marions ghost]

182. Wow yourself

I have no idea what you mean by "it's 2013" Be very careful what words I choose? does that mean

here's this if you need it, re the previous message--

However I DO think that telling kids what color crayons they can use is controlling & ridiculous and if this keeps up the kid will be a mess by his teens, when real guidance should be given.

[blueamy66]

185. So you think that not allowing a child to have a certain color is child abuse?

Are you going to stand by your words? Call it child abuse? Call the authorities?

Yes, it's 2013 and people that cry wolf about child abuse need to stand by their assumptions.

So, do you still think it's child abuse?

[marions ghost]

187. I think

it indicates a tendency to control a child to a degree that is unhealthy. If a mother can tell a child they can't use a pink crayon, what else is she telling him he can't do? What other forms of extreme micromanagement of his life does she engage in? This may go beyond gender role paranoia. She may be telling him what to think and do constantly-- to the point that he never develops a normal identity separate from hers. Yes, I think telling a child that any color from a crayon box is off limits is an indicator of serious hyper focus.

If you think that psychological abuse is not child abuse, you might not be able to recognize the signs.

I stand by my assumptions absolutely.

[madinmaryland]

111. My wife loves it when I wear pink shirts.

[joeybee12]

32. I agree...the kid really wasn't choosing what to do or wear...

But being forced to...

[winter is coming]

41. +1 That isn't gender-neutral. That's alternating-gender-stereotype. n/t

[Dorian Gray]

51. My two and a half year old daughter

loves frill clothes, painting her nails and playing with trucks and dinosaurs.

She's gravitated toward some girly things and some masculine things. On her own. I'm happy with whatever she enjoys.

These parents do seem to be pushing their child toward something that may not be his natural inclination. Not accepting what might be his preferences.

[hlthe2b]

71. I agree. This is anything but "gender neutral" parenting...

I don't think they did the kid any favors, either. Instead of feeling like he was accepted, no matter what, they were pushing their own ideals on him, just as the societal "norms" they sought to avoid.

Stupid, stupid parenting, IMO.

[cbdo2007]

9. Hopefully she pays for mental health treatment for her son throughout his life.

It will be decades before he can move past this "experiment"

[marions ghost]

16. Ridiculous

He will be fine as long as he can express himself however he wants from now on.

I wish somebody had raised me this way.

Being forced into artificial gender roles too young can be damaging.

[cbdo2007]

20. He WAS forced into an artificial gender role, much more than the rest of us.

Raising kids normally doesn't put them in gender roles, you dress them in clothes they want to wear and they play with stuff they want to play with. He didn't have a choice and his parents went out of their way to force him to dress and play with "gender neutral" stuff.

[unblock]

28. toddlers do not, or at least ought not, rule the roost.

i suppose one parenting technique is to let a toddler choose his own toys and clothes, but many parents exercise considerably more control of such things. usually not with the aims in this story, but e.g., nothing age inappropriate, not guns, it's too cold for shorts, etc. never mind parents imposing their views to enforce gender roles (no pink for boys, e.g.).

i think it's crazy how young gender identification starts. the very first thing people want to know when an infant is born is whether it's a boy or a girl. it drives people nuts if all they know is a gender-neutral name. frankly, that's ridiculous.

some things you need from day one -- love, contact, food, hygiene, shelter, etc. -- but blue clothes for boys and pink clothes for girls is not among them.


if this kid has any problems it will be because his parents are non-conformists and the rest of the community will treat him and them differently because of that, but not directly because of this offbeat early parenting idea.

[pnwmom]

116. Watch this video of his mother coaching him on the correct answers to her questions.

Does this boy really even know what he thinks or likes or prefers, or is he just parroting what he knows his mother wants him to say?

If this kid has any problems it will be because his parents were narcissists who were using him as a sociology project and to make a public point.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/parents-of-gender-neutral-boy-sasha-post-165350

[unblock]

145. parents "coaching" their religious views onto their kids is far more damaging.

if we're going to have a problem with parents imposing their views onto their kids, let's start there.

or with political views or whatever. yeah, a lot of views expressed by 5 year olds are as likely the parental views as the kid's own.

so what else is new?

in all likelihood, this kid will grow up to be a quite normal man in touch with his feminine side.

we don't have any agenda but if our son wants to get something pink, we get him something pink. what's the big deal?

[pnwmom]

146. Your approach is entirely different from that mother's, because you were child-focused.

I also bought my kids whatever they wanted without regard to gender "appropriateness."

But this mother wasn't child focused. She was focused on her philosophy and so she molded her son to fit it. This is the behavior of any narcissistic stage-mother who wants her child to perform, rather than simply BE.

[marions ghost]

30. We don't know that he was forced

he could easily have chosen the more "fun" clothes (especially if he's artistic LOL or OMG gay). I doubt he was forced to wear girly clothes. My nephew begged to wear a party dress when he was five. Threw a fit when he couldn't. So maybe my sister should have let him wear a more fancy shirt & responded to his urge for fun dress ups? But no. Put him in the jeans and sports logo t-shirt quick or somebody might think he's not normal....

So since the parents in England have done this "experiment' -- which I agree has some issues-- I'd like to see how this kid is in 10 years. I'm willing to bet that he isn't scarred by this.

It is extreme--I certainly wouldn't carry it beyond age 4-5. But before that I think kids need a LOT more gender neutrality than we give them. Parents really could let kids choose what toys, activities and types of clothes they like these days, without too much trouble or notice from others. That's progress I think.

[joeglow3]

37. They admitting they forbid certain items for being "too masculine"

and forced other traditionally "feminine" things on him. That is NOT allowing him to express himself. That is forcing roles on him.

[marions ghost]

53. presented to him

is different from being forced. We don't know if he was "forced" against his will.

There are certain items which I would agree are too masculine for young kids of either sex to play with--war toys, guns, realistic weapons.

I doubt this kid could not play with trucks and cars, and instead had Easy Bake ovens forced on him.

[redqueen]

48. When this particular gender roles transgression is concerned, encouragement = force.

Encourage a girl to do boy things? Why not? Reject Bratz dolls and Barbies? Your choice...

Do the opposite and IT'S FREAKOUT TIME!

[marions ghost]

52. Right

Nobody (except extreme pageant Moms) care if a girl isn't drawn to girl games and toys.

But let that happen the other way around, and...OMG he's Gay.

My guy (who is not worried about his masculinity) remembers w extreme distress when his father tried to make him go out for football as a teenager. He still shudders at the horrible experience at being ridiculed on the field in front of a crowd because, tho he's tall and stocky, he is not athletic, and certainly not a runner. It was humiliating and I think hurt his relationship with his Dad for many years.

[pnwmom]

117. Do you really think this mother was just encouraging him?

Or is she pushing him?

You can see him trying to please her on this video.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/parents-of-gender-neutral-boy-sasha-post-165350

[Jenoch]

132. I think this kid

being 'fine' in the long run is iffy with the nutjob parents he appears to have. Of course we know nothing of the father. He might be one of those 'yes dear' types who goes along to get along.

[marions ghost]

133. Good grief

With all the nutjob parents out there--like the ones who give 5 year olds guns for ex--you think this would seriously mess him up? He's going to identify with boys the rest of his life, I'm sure. But he didn't develop with all that hyped-up gender role modeling that is IMO a greater disservice to children. And that goes equally for girls being pushed to be "like girls should be" at a young age.

Right we don't know the father and I would have to know what his opinion is on this before castigating the Mom alone.

But if you think this is the most extreme parent nutjob out there, look around....

[Jenoch]

134. When I implied that this kid

is going to have a tough time in life because of his nutjob parents, I was not even considering the gender experiment conducted on him. I just believe this women is probably full of nutty ideas. Being an only child probably won't help his socializing either.

[marions ghost]

139. Your biases are showing

"being an only child won't help his socializing"...

My dad was an only child and his father was too. My SO is an only child and so is his father.
All of these four people are/were well socialized--in fact they all have an enviable self-confidence and are/were loved by all. That old myth about only kids is bunk.

On the other hand many kids of nutjob parents are great people. And there are much worse nutjobs than this Mom, unfortunately. So predictions aren't too accurate.

We can only chat in general terms about these people. We don't know them. But on the surface I can say--I have seen MUCH weirder.

[Jenoch]

143. I did not mean to imply

that all only children have problems socializing. I only intended to mean what I wrote, that being an only child will not help this kid to grow up well adjusted with an obviously nutty mother, a mother who conducted a gender experiment on her own child.

[blueamy66]

179. Most of us agree that a 5 yr old doesn't need a gun.

Alot of parents do a "disservice" to their children. Let's not decide which "disservice" is more harmful to the child.

[marions ghost]

183. How about

I decide what I think is a "disservice to a child" --and you decide what you think is a disservice to a child. And we're both free to say what that is.

"Let's not decide" what kind of coercive statement is that?

[blueamy66]

186. I give up

hope you don't have children

[Dreamer Tatum]

49. +1 nt

[Neoma]

78. Are you seriously saying THAT would trigger a mental illness?

And exactly just what are you implying for people who actually has a mental illness? That is definitely inappropriate to imply.

[cbdo2007]

80. Of course, lots of seemingly insignificant stuff from people's childhoods that trigger

the need for years and years of counseling. I hereby proclaim that I am seriously saying that this could be one of those issues as I think this behavior by the parents was probably highly damaging to this child. I am in the mental health care field and every social worker I've talked about this case with today agrees.

[Neoma]

85. And that gives you the right to assume mental disorders?

You should know better than to computer chair diagnose people.

I get it.

Boys being girly = damaged for the rest of his life.
Girls being boyish = Not damaged for the rest of her life.

Apparently all girly things damage boys.

[cbdo2007]

88. Wait, where did I say that??

You must have responded to the wrong post again. Doh!

I didn't specify one way or the other whether boys being girly or girls being boyish was bad, but I did state that going out of your way to force them into one gender or the other, or in this extreme case to actually force them to be genderless would be very damaging, any other mental health professional would agree.

[Neoma]

90. It doesn't sound like he's been bothered by it.

My mom picked out all my clothes and toys when I was that young, doesn't sound like she did anything different in that respect.

The horror of wearing a tutu.

[cbdo2007]

96. HAHAHAHAHAHA

You're right, what was I thinking. This whole story is completely 100% normal and every parent should do this.

[Neoma]

98. Kids play dress-up all the time. They do do this.

Only difference was that it was an everyday thing.

[cbdo2007]

99. You can stop arguing with me, I already said you won and this is completely normal behavior

by the parents and should be encouraged of every parent. I'm sure the kid will be happy and normal and grow up and be the first gender neutral President some day.

[Neoma]

100. I'm not arguing for it mind you.

I'm arguing how laughable it is that this would be a trigger.

[cbdo2007]

102. Oh good grief.

[Neoma]

104. Being involved in the mental health world changes perspectives on these matters.

[cbdo2007]

105. We're both "involved in the mental health world" but each brought a different perspective...

you as the patient, me as the provider's office. Trust me, we get people seeking years of treatment for much, much less than what happened in this situation. While it is true that circumstances have different effects on people, the liklihood of someone in this kids situation is more likely to need mental health treatment when they are older than someone following societal norms.

[Neoma]

108. But saying automatically this child will have problems?

The thought of being in therapy for dressing up and his parents giving him different toys simply sounds stupid. Is the worry that he couldn't express himself properly? That seemed to be the parents concern. They'll probably let him make real choices now, and that part of it won't ruin his life any. I don't go around looking at strange upbringings and saying they'll be mentally ill. It's projecting, as well as offensive. I certainly wouldn't like people picking apart my childhood and saying, "no wonder."

[JTFrog]

142. "you as the patient, me as the provider's office"

And yet you posted something as fucked up as this: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022787149#post11

Excuse me for not really buying whatever you're selling in this thread.

[pnwmom]

154. The children of narcissists are FAR more likely to seek mental health therapy

than their parents. (Narcissists are so full of themselves they don't think they need therapy.) So yes, this boy is likely to need some therapy some day.

But his problem won't be the gender-neutral stuff -- it's because he was raised by a narcissist. She's been putting her own agenda first, rather than her child's separate needs. She's treating him like a science project, not a living, breathing human being. She acknowledged that it had gotten harder and harder to cover up his gender -- that's because he wanted to be a little boy! And she wasn't letting him . . . .

[Neoma]

160. That would be another thing entirely, and I'm not assuming that of her.

[LadyHawkAZ]

130. Yeah. Just like all those years I spent in therapy

after my mom dressed me in jeans and let me play with trucks and bikes.

[Robb]

12. Frederick II.

Famously shut a dude up in a barrel and watched the hole to see if the man's soul could be seen escaping when he died.

More relevantly, he ordered some infants be taken from their families and raised by foster-mothers in silence, without even the contact of gesture. He wanted to find out what the first human language was, expecting (IIRC) it to be Latin.

Instead, the babies all died. Oh, well.

Edited to add: the internets tell me he founded the University of Naples.

[question everything]

14. Child abuse

Does he pee sitting down? Always?

And they think putting him in that tu-tu is "gender neutral?"

This poor kid will have to be treated for the rest of his life by psychologists. And perhaps be supported by public aid.

I've heard this morning an ad - not sure whether to call it so - by Melissa Harris-Perry about how it is the responsibility of all of us to raise kids. That they are not the property of their parents. I think that this story makes her case.

[marions ghost]

19. Is this a joke?

Wearing a tu-tu at a young age will not turn a guy into a girl, or make him need lifelong counseling.

Being pushed into role expectations too early--by (for ex) overly macho Dads or overly femmy (JonBenet) Moms is much more damaging.

Let's wait and ask this kid when he's 15 how he feels about it. I think he'll say his childhood was fun. None of that "you can't do that, you're a girl." Or to a boy--"You're a sissy!"

Imagine no more of that gender overkill stuff (out of fear of teh Gay).

[joeglow3]

40. But they did exactly that

You can't play with that because it is too masculine or you must play with this because we think it should be considered feminine. This poor boy had no opportunity to define his own role.

[marions ghost]

46. I don't think we know

exactly what they did. Maybe they will write a book.

It seems to me that they could do gender neutral by presenting both options and letting him play with or wear whatever he went toward. Obviously they wouldn't tell him this is too this or that because they weren't doing gender roles based on silly stuff like clothes or toys.

We don't know.

[pnwmom]

61. You didn't read the whole thing. The mother encouraged him

to "hide" his masculinity when he was outside, by playing with dolls.

This is very different than providing a child with gender neutral toys such as blocks or legos -- or providing him with both "boy toys" and "girl toys." She was raising him to think it was wrong to show he was a boy. Her needs were taking precedence over his being himself, whatever that is.

We gave our girl and our boys building sets and dolls. Our daughter was the only one who played with the dolls (unless you count trying to flush a Barbie leg down the toilet, which one son did). And our daughter was the only one who went on to become an engineer.

[fishwax]

144. well, according to the reporter, anyway

But, then, the reporter also claims the kid was "only allowed to play with gender-neutral toys," which would seem to contradict the suggestion that she encouraged/forced him to play with dolls.

[pnwmom]

147. I think the explanation is that he was only allowed to play with gender neutral toys

AND stereotypical girly toys.

The youtube video was what got to me. He was trying so hard to say the words his mother was coaching him to say. Very sad.

[unblock]

22. dressing a boy in pink is child abuse? good grief.

i'm a fully grown man and i pee sitting down the vast majority of the time.

you know why? peeing standing up makes a mess and i'm not inconsiderate. i only pee standing up when using a urinal designed for that purpose. so what on earth is wrong with that?

look, the kid is going to know full well gender roles because once he's in school he'll be getting lessons on it all the time, every day. being indoctrinated in gender roles from birth vs. being indoctrinated on gender roles from age 5 isn't really going to make much of a difference at all, certainly not enough of one, nor even clearly damaging, to constitute child abuse.

[pnwmom]

63. Telling him to hide that he's a boy couldn't have been good for him.

When he wanted to run around naked outside, "Beck was resolute and encouraged him to play with dolls to hide his masculinity."

[unblock]

86. wait, now i'm supposed to let mini-unblock run around naked outside???

if she *said* to him "you have to hide your masculinity", then that's certainly problematic, but if she was trying to be gender-neutral i doubt she would have said that. plenty of parents say "you have to hide your bits" and unless you want to challenge social norms about nudity that's hardly a problem.

[gollygee]

31. They didn't say he had gender neutral clothes

they said he only had gender neutral toys, and that he went back and forth between girlish and boyish clothes.

I do wonder what they mean by "gender neutral" as far as toys go. Sometimes what I consider to be gender neutral shows up in the boy section of the toy store. Legos were gender neutral toys when I was a kid.

And did they say anything about how he pees? I didn't read that. Or is that an assumption you've made? They didn't want others to project their assumptions on him and presented him as gender neutral to the world, but that doesn't mean he was taught to sit down to pee.

I see no reason he will need psychologists or will not be able to support himself. At least not from wearing a tutu.

[Ms. Toad]

161. I read this thread before reading the article

and watching the video. I found it hard to reconcile the vitriol in this thread toward the parents with the article and video.

It seems there is a lot of assumptions made well beyond what was actually in the article & video. it also seems to me there is a bit of language barrier going on that makes some of what the mom said open to interpretation - and most of the people in this thread are latching on to the harshest interpretation. (Yes, she is speaking English - but in different cultures which speak English the interpretation of the same phrases can be quite different.)

I certainly wouldn't make the choice to raise my child they way they did, but I was really surprised (after reading this thread) at how happy and relaxed Sasha seemed in the video, and how little pressure to do traditionally feminine (or masculine) things was actually reported.

[redqueen]

190. Yep. Some people need to take a moment and consider why they're having over-the-top reactions.

Instead of just desperately searching for anything at all they can use to try to rationalize those reactions.

[Scootaloo]

91. You have an extremely light threshold for child abuse

Really? You think putting him in a tutu is going to cause severe psychological trauma that needs lifelong psychiatric care? That peeing sitting down is going to hurt him?

I think Redqueen has a good point; apparently putting a pair of jeans on a little girl is just fine, but putting a skirt on a little boy is a thing of nightmare... I think it says way more about the people posting than it does about the psychological state of this kid.

As for the mother... All I can say was I'd rather she practice woo-science with funny clothing, rather than foist homeopathy on her kid instead of medicine.

[Poll_Blind]

23. This was already posted on DU over a year ago. These parents aren't...

...enlightened, they're playing one or more fucked up games.

DU link HERE

PB

[snooper2]

34. ah my bad, On the page by the headline was today's date..

Which I guess is where they always put it, I see under the picture Jan 2012 now ...


I thought that was weird I was searching on the Canadian story and this popped up and was "today"

[TheManInTheMac]

27. These "parents" seem to have taken open-mindedness to the level of

having their brains leak out.

[AngryAmish]

29. She made a child, her own child, a social experiment

That is pretty low.

Poor kid.

[marions ghost]

33. ALL kids are social experiments

---------one way or the other.

[cali]

35. not to this extreme they aren't.

[marions ghost]

38. I beg to differ

many parents have an agenda that goes to extremes.

[Warren DeMontague]

66. Not the good ones.

[marions ghost]

82. Not making a good/bad judgment

til I see how the kid turns out.

He might be better off than kids I've known who were forced into strict gender roles. Those are hard to break out of once they're instilled at a young age.

[Warren DeMontague]

83. I would be critical of that kind of parenting, too.

Like I said- there's a big difference between giving your kids the freedom to be who they are, and pushing stuff on them.

[pnwmom]

151. All narcissists are bad parents, no matter what particular agenda is driving them.

The more narcissistic, the worse a parent.

We don't know these parents well enough to know where they fall on the narcissism scale, but the stuff they've put out in public is pretty damning. That video is just sad.

[marions ghost]

158. yes narcissists make bad parents

and often turn their kids into narcissists. We don't know where they fall on the scale and it is sad to live through your child (but think of how many parents do just that--this is not worse).

I suspect that a lot of the visceral negative response to this --especially from guys --is from the misconception that a boy in a tutu is on the way to becoming the next RuPaul.

There is a so much gender extremism in America. You can't do this. You can't do that. Boys can't wear pink. Girls can't play drums. Etc etc................................

[pnwmom]

149. Yup. And there are too many parents who are narcissists, who USE their children

for their own ends.

That doesn't excuse this woman.

[Scootaloo]

93. Most are more severe, actually

Hell, my parents brought me up as a "good christian" which meant I was fucking afraid of going to hell when I died - when I was five. But that? That's considered "normal," because Christianity is mainstream and imparting your religious beliefs to your child is usually considered "good parenting."

Putting a boy in a dress is trivial shit compared to most of the social experiment horrors many parents foist upon their children. However since it bucks a cultural trend, it looks "weird and extreme." when all it is, is a selection of merchandise.

[LadyHawkAZ]

138. +1,000,000

[marions ghost]

141. thank you +++++

you make my point better than I could.

[pnwmom]

150. All narcissists do great damage to their children.

Whether the narcissist wants to raise perfectly religious children, or perfect athletes, or perfect musicians, or perfectly gender-neutral children -- the harm is in the impossible aim for perfection, and the parents' disregard of the child's own separate humanity and the child's own separate needs.

This child was being treated as a science project because the parents wanted to prove something to the world. Yes there are other rotten, narcissistic parents. But that doesn't excuse this pair.

[redqueen]

39. Butbutbut... he's a BOY... and he was ENCOURAGED to do GIRL things!

The horror... the horror...

[lumberjack_jeff]

42. No, he was made to pretend that he wasn't a boy.

He has undoubtedly already asked himself the obvious question. Why should I be ashamed of being a boy?

Mom's experiment wouldn't be considered ethically appropriate in any research study.

A cursory glance at the 2nd photo doesn't leave me any ambiguity about the gender of the child or his mom's mental health.

[redqueen]

43. LOL. No.

Not giving a definitive answer is not the same thing as pretending there is no answer.

Enjoy your melodrama and poutrage du jour.

[Wait Wut]

54. "...Beck was resolute and encouraged him to play with dolls to hide his masculinity."

He shouldn't be 'discouraged' from being a boy, either. Children should be allowed to be children. Leave the dolls and the trucks out along with some art supplies, books, musical instruments, building blocks, etc. and let them decide which direction they want to focus their imagination. No 'encouraging' or 'discouraging' is necessary.

Being proud of who you are includes being proud of what you are. Shame comes from being encouraged to be someone/something you aren't. It's someone telling you that you aren't good enough.

[HappyMe]

58. Well said.

I don't think that there is anything 'neutral' about what these parents are doing.

[redqueen]

60. That is not a quote, is it?

This is from a tabloid, and their job is to stir meaningless shit into drama.

Let's try to stick with facts.

[Wait Wut]

68. Wow, okay.

Even though it seems that Beck was actually interviewed (complete with pictures), we can just totally disregard anything that isn't a direct quote. Journalists and editors around the world will be devastated by your news.

While we're at it, we can ignore anything else that is written anywhere unless it is a direct quote, because only direct quotes are real. (Throw out those history books!!!)

Talk about meaningless shit into drama. I tried to make a point, you chose to ignore the body of my comment and dramatize the apparently offensive non-quote.

The FACT is...a child should be allowed to be a CHILD. That is MY quote. Boy or Girl, neither should be encouraged to be something they are not, nor discouraged from being the child they want to be. You obviously disagree. Awesome.

[redqueen]

72. LOL, I see you're quite good at spinning, yourself... you sure did a good job there.

Yet you have no problem swalowing tabloid "articles" hook, line, and sinker.

Bye!

[Wait Wut]

73. Awwww...

But, I was hoping for more accusations of drama stirring.

Toodles!

[redqueen]

74. Uh, ok? Tabloids write copy in such a way as to rouse the maximum amount of rabble.

Happy now?

[Wait Wut]

77. Oh yes.

Just giddy with joy.

Interviews are interviews. I read the entire article. Beck did not do herself any favors. But, she did get the attention she was looking for. That's sort of nauseating, dontcha think? Using a child to promote your own ego?

[redqueen]

81. I don't pretend to know her motives.

Many people do things for attention and it's all rather pathetic and indicative of a person who is wrapped up in their ego, I agree.

If she did all this to draw attention to herself, and sought out the tabloid for more attention, then that's pretty low, yes.

However, it is also possible that she's just an eccentric person and word got out and she got attention because goddess knows if there's anything that sells advertising it's stupid shit like this.

Either way, what stands out the most for me in this situation is the over-the-top reactions and what they say about gender role acceptance. I would expect more people would be up in arms about the parent who activlely refused to let their son even pick out a damned pen based on gender bullshit... but no.

Anyway, no hard feelings from me despite the ugly insinuation from you. But I really am done with this silly fauxrage now. Even if she did actively encourage him to hide his sex, I do not see that as a reason for the level of outrage we see in these threads. Yes, he may have taken that as being told there's something wrong with being a boy, and that's just as wrong as girls getting the message that theres something wrong with being a girl, and that happens all the fucking time and people seem to get mildly outraged at best... So... It's hard for me to take it at face value. And if he is struck by depression or a lack of self esteem because of it, that would be very sad.

In closing...



Enjoy your day.

[Bonobo]

156. Ironically they will make him more gender-conscious than if they had

just let him make up his own mind.

Denying him access to himself is what they wound up doing, ironically, when I THINK they think they were doing the opposite.

Only allowing him to play with "gender neutral" toys? Isn't that the same as making prejudgments about what is a gender-specific toy?

One wonders what the reaction would be from the apologists if it was a man who did not allow his daughter to tell others that she was female.

[opiate69]

196. Says the woman who continually cites "blogs" as sources...

[lumberjack_jeff]

101. There's nothing gender neutral about a ballerina costume complete with tinkerbell wings.

It's a disguise, and it's reasonable to assume that mom thought he needed one.

[morningfog]

173. That's not true.

Whether the mom was gender neutral is one question. A ballerina costume is not gendered.

[lumberjack_jeff]

174. In what language is "ballerina" not gendered?

[morningfog]

175. It what world is a cut of fabric gendered?

[AngryAmish]

204. My underpants are pretty gendered

Ladies underpants lack room down there.

[morningfog]

205. You could try crotchless panties.

[AngryAmish]

206. I have.

[cali]

56. my problem with this has jackshit to do with that

I encouraged my son to play with "girl' things and he had a dress up box that contained everything from feather boas and dresses to cowboy hats.

my discomfort with these parents is they claim gender neutral but didn't practice it and I think it's creepy as hell to actively try and hide that he's a boy. It's way too experiment with the kid for their own benefit, for me.

[redqueen]

57. I agree that they're unclear on the definition of 'neutral', I just don't see that as a good reason

for some of the over the top responses we see in this thread. If they had been neutral (instead of fluid) I doubt we'd see such emotionally charged reactions. Negative, yes... spittle flicking, no.

I think this particular type of gender role transgression very much is the reason for these over the top reactions.

I also think keeping his sex a secret is no big deal. At all. Obviously YMMV.

[MadrasT]

62. +1

[lumberjack_jeff]

103. I've read a few of these stories. Never read one in which mom was hiding her daughter's sex.

The premise appears to be that there's something wrong with being male that a healthy dose of dolls, wings and sparkles can cure.

[MadrasT]

159. My parents dressed me in boys' clothing, cut my hair very short, and actively discouraged femininity

They made it pretty clear that there was nothing wrong with being a girl, but that the stereotype of "female" is a ridiculous societal construct.

From my perspective, the world seems to be batshit crazy when it comes to ideas about gender roles.

[lumberjack_jeff]

170. It is one thing to expose your child to a variety of interests.

My middle son's favorite childhood toy was a fisher price kitchen.



It is something else entirely to deny your son is male, and encourage his siblings to keep it a secret. Shame isn't an accidental takeaway from that lesson, it's an unavoidable conclusion.

If your parents gave you a girls name and called you "their daughter" rather than "the infant", then we're describing different degrees of social engineering.

[MadrasT]

177. They referred to me by my gender neutral name

Not as their anything

They avoided gendered pronouns

I had no siblings until I was 5

They did somewhat shame mindless *femaleness* (things that are female stereotyped) but I did not get the message that I should feel ashamed to have a girl body or be ashamed that I was female born

I was literally not allowed to have a Barbie doll (although they did not interest me much anyway) or other things like that or frilly girl clothes (did not much want them either but any minimal interest I expressed in girly things was scoffed at) (they eventually broke down and allowed me to have some girly *costumes* for playing dress up) (but I had boys costumes and mostly animal costumes too) and it was clear that girly clothes were literally costuming

In retrospect - what a great message

The message I got was that I was a person first - and the fact that I was also female was *so what*

I love that my parents raised me that way

(sorry my punctuation keys literally do not work on this device)

I am not trying to convince you that you are wrong just saying I see this totally differently because I lived this to some degree and I love that I did

I do not think shame is an automatic takeaway for this boy (though it is a possible takeaway)

As you may know - as an adult I identify as a nongendered female bodied human - my gender just does not matter to me

[lumberjack_jeff]

180. Good post. Thanks for your perspective.

We're all a product of our upbringing. I'm a guy who likes being a guy and when I see the photos in the OP and read the accompanying story, I don't see "gender neutral" I see a boy in disguise.

[MadrasT]

181. If I were girl who liked being a girl

I might be pretty pissed at my parents

Nature and nurture seemed to line up pretty well for me so it worked out

My sister was raised the same way and she turned out to be pretty typically feminine so it seems it is not all nurture

I wonder how she feels about it (maybe I will ask her next time I see her)

[marions ghost]

189. "I was a person first"

As long as we stress artificial boy/girl differences at such a young age, we can't really progress to a state of gender equality IMO.

thanks for your post.

[redqueen]

191. "it was clear that girly clothes were literally costuming" YES! What an important message!

"The message I got was that I was a person first - and the fact that I was also female was *so what* "



Best post in this thread.

[Ms. Toad]

163. First - there are not many parents who do this

No more than two that I'm aware of. From that sample size it is not realistic to make a general statement about why those two parents made their choice - or that they would not have made that choice had their child been a girl.

Second - there is really no need to hide a daughter's sex, it is hidden by default. Spend some time talking to parents of children under 2. Parents of girl children will almost universally tell you that their child was assumed to be male. Parents of boy children will almost universally tell you that no one ever assumed their child was a girl.

I noticed that phenomenon with my very girly girl - even when she was dressed in frills and colors which screamed girl, at least 30% of the time people would ask me what his name was, or otherwise referred to her using male pronouns. So I started asking other parents about their experiences.

It isn't that being male is bad - it is that more often than not people will treat a child as male until expressly being told the child is a girl.

[pnwmom]

152. That's not the issue at all.

I gave my son's dolls but I didn't tell them they had to hide the fact that they were boys.

It was fine when Sasha was a baby, but the mother acknowledged that it got harder and harder as he got older to keep people from finding out he was a boy.

How can people who understand the needs of transgender people not understand the needs of all kids to be whoever they are? And not to have to hide it because of the parent's agenda?

[pnwmom]

65. How many of them have narcissistic parents displaying them on TV?

I think this mother was just as nutty as the reality TV type parents -- just wanting attention for herself and her kid.

[marions ghost]

94. I can see why you say it's reality TV

stuff. In the age of Facebook tho.....

If you feel strongly that you want to do something different with your child, something that goes against the norm, you are going to get attention.

I don't know the whole story here but I do sympathize with her efforts to change the way her child views gender roles. I will be very interested to see what he does at 15. In a way, I'm glad she did the "experiment' because it couldn't have been done any other way--ie. than with a parent's complete approval. If I thought the child was seriously harmed, I would not be so supportive. And I still don't know enough.

Some people make their young children vegetarians. Some people turn them into violinists. Soccer players. What's the difference? This mother is saying that gender roles need not be so rigidly expressed, as it is in most cultures. It's different, but so is everything that's outside the societal norms. As long as she doesn't continue to push this beyond this age, I'm OK with it.

[pnwmom]

106. And a significant number of parents who are "turning" their children into violinists

or soccer players or actors (or whatever) are narcissists, who are using their children for their own purposes, whatever they are.

It was one thing for her to refuse to tell friends and family members her baby's gender, and to give Sasha only gender-neutral toys or clothes. Great. But she went far beyond that, trying to make him cover up his gender by the time he was old enough to be aware of it -- which would send the message to him that there was something wrong with being a boy. He's just a little kid -- not a philosopher or a scientist!

And she didn't have to go to the newspapers with this when "the infant" (what an awful thing to call a child) was a baby. I'm afraid this has all been about her, from the very beginning.

Yes, it will be very interesting if this boy decides to go public again as an adult.

[marions ghost]

109. OK you know more than I do apparently

but I'd still have to have more of the particulars to make a judgment.

On the surface I'd say he hasn't been seriously harmed (any more than the kids of other narcissists anyway). Some of them do rebel once they get to be adults.

But the big picture is that we do have too much stress on gender roles in our society and that I think I can safely say without getting jumped on. But people would rather blame this woman for doing something different.

If it were me, I'd rather be raised this way, at least to about 4-5. I'm only going on my own gut feeling about it. The way we approach the early indoctrination of gender roles in this country is pretty sick IMO. It hurt me and my sibs and it's ongoing in full swing today.

[pnwmom]

113. Here's a youtube of the boy, being coached by his Mom.

Clearly he's trying his best to give her the right answers. But what does he really think? Who knows?

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/parents-of-gender-neutral-boy-sasha-post-165350

I gave my daughter and sons dolls and I gave them all building sets. They all played with the building sets, but only the girl liked the dolls.

When my daughter was about a year and a half, she even pretended to nurse her doll.
When my son was about the same age, we gave him a baby doll. He stood up on the couch, threw the doll on the floor, and jumped on it, feet first.

Anyway, my daughter was the one who ended up becoming an engineer. All the dolls and pinkness that she preferred (she wore the same skirt to preschool for 5 days in a row because it was the only one she owned) didn't stop her from loving math and science.

[marions ghost]

120. It does say he wasn't forced

to wear girls clothes, wears gender neutral clothes which I think is fine. He only played dress up in the tutu. Yeah the Mom is leading him on, but I see parents all the time doing that about other things. I just don't see this as the worst thing in the world.

I am certainly not going to argue that boys and girls don't have distinct differences--they do, from birth. But I wonder--if our society was not so polarized, and if the traits that are considered "boy" and "girl" were really encouraged in the opposite sex, if we would have the same negative attitudes about it after awhile. Because of course we all have both "male" and "female" traits. Both boys & girls need to be taught to be gentle and nurturing when appropriate and assertive and active when appropriate. But do we really do that? I think we still reward those behaviors differently for boys vs girls.

Take the following as hypothetical only:
When your son jumped on the doll, was the reaction of the parents to a) laugh? Or was the reaction b) to say, "Johnny, this is how to be kind to your baby." Very different message in the response examples. The second approach is the one you'd use if a girl was aggressive toward the doll. My sisters and I would dismember dolls and torture them, bury them alive & stuff. Was that showing "male" tendencies. No, I think what your son did and what we did to our dolls are just kid tendencies.

[pnwmom]

123. When he did it, I think I was kind of shocked

so I'm hoping my reaction was more like B.

On the other hand, when he was a little older, he pulled a leg off one of his sister's Barbie's to see if he could flush it down the toilet.

So he never treated a doll like it was a human being, unlike my daughter. The doll was just a thing -- a building toy with a face.

But that had nothing to do with him being a kind, sensitive boy in all the ways that mattered (that is, being empathic toward animals and other human beings). And her doll play didn't keep her from developing her interests. In fact, when she taught herself to "divide," it was to divide her dolls into groups so she and her friends got the same number.

[marions ghost]

129. OK but

what I'm saying is that neither your son having no identification with dolls as "human" OR your daughter treating her dolls as though they were--is not necessarily about a boy thing or a girl thing. More about different personalities.

Almost all of these traits we identify as "boy" or "girl" are equally possible in both. We skew it rather than letting them develop their own expression of gender. Sounds like you were conscious of the issues and rewarding positive behaviors in either sex. All good. But there are a lot of people "forcing" their kids into very damaging gender roles. This is what I'm talking about.

[HappyMe]

110. The fact that she referred to the boy

as "the infant" really bothered me. It's kind of a cold, clinical sounding thing to call your own kid.

Her weird experiment is all about her.

[pnwmom]

126. Me, too. What an oddly detached way to refer to Sasha.

Why didn't she just use his name?

[Dorian Gray]

157. I was just going to say the same thing

If she didn't want to refer to Sasha as Him or Her, she could have just used his name. Much more personal.

[Ms. Toad]

167. You might want to spend some time

hiding the gender of someone. It is not as easy as just using his name.

There are times when I do not want the first thing people know about me to be that I am a lesbian - so I try not to use gender pronouns when referring to my wife. It gets extremely awkward after about two sentences.

I suspect "the infant" may have a different feel to it in the UK than it does here. Even though we speak the same language, there are nuances in what the same phrase means there from what it means here - by and large I believe they they are a bit more formal. When I listened to the tone, rather than the language, I don't get the clinical/coercive feel which so many in this thread are getting.

[Dorian Gray]

171. I agree that it might be problematic

being gender neutral in society, and I feel for your situation, truly.

But I lived in the UK, and I don't think I ever heard anyone refer to their child as "the infant." And people are a lot less formal (the Royal Family, notwithstanding) than you'd presume. Of course, it depends on city/region/dialect/etc. There are so many differences in language throughout the country, that what I experienced in London and in the Northwest (Cumbria) might not be the same as in the south or center of the country.

[Ms. Toad]

172. I was basing it mostly on the mismatch between her words -

as I would understand them in the US, and the tone of voice, interactions I could see, and so on in the video.

There are actually very few times when I worry about pronouns. I've been out for more than 31 years. We've raised a child together (with both of us treated as moms in our relatively conservative community), and I now participate in an ungated online community using my real name where I regularly talk about being a lesbian (largely and kind of ironically to make the point that they need to permit the use of pseudonyms so I'm not the only identifiably LGBT member of that community). But, truth be told, people hear what they expect to hear. I went a full semester in law school using femalepronouns with someone who sat next to me every day. Sometime second semester I got tired of waiting for his ears to clear and expressly said, "My spouse is female." Another notable time I went to a support group for spouses of people with Alzheimer's - and didn't want to have to dance around pronouns when I needed support. So I tried to be very clear about pronouns and spouse. By the end of the evening I had a sister and a mother with Alzheimer's. They got the pronoun - but having gotten the pronouns, they couldn't process the relationship.

But every once in a while, when I am meeting someone in a setting where personal information is expected to be exchanged - but the important focus of the event is on something that touchy social issues would distract from, I avoid pronouns. It gets awkward fast.

So - no need to commiserate with me. I just have had the experience of having tried to refer to someone close to me without using gender pronouns and know how challenging it is - something that you wouldn't necessarily think was that hard unless you had really tried it before.

[Dorian Gray]

176. It's good to have the perspective of someone

who went through this, so thanks for sharing your experience.

[Ms. Toad]

165. I think the point of hiding his gender

Was more to change how others interacted with him. That indirectly changes his view about gender because (presumably) people are interacting with him in an ungendered way because they cannot interact with him based on his actual gender.

Where the experiment falls apart is that when gender is not obvious (and in young children even when it is obvious), people assume a child is male.

When my daughter was young (under 2 or so) she had a wide selection of clothes from clothes which were intended for boys to clothes which were intended for girls. No matter what she was wearing (including when she was wearing very frilly pink clothes) people addressed her using male pronouns (what is his name, for example). I started talking to parents of other young children and found that nearly universally male children were addressed by the gender pronouns which matched their sex - and nearly universally female children were not.

[Luminous Animal]

97. I view a religious upbringing of any kind, an extreme social experiment.

[Poll_Blind]

44. Eerily similar to the "Vagina Pillows" sketch on Portlandia: (VIDEO)

PB

[deutsey]

45. I honestly expected this to be in The Onion

[BainsBane]

47. I don't know about this

I foresee decades of therapy for this kid. I hope I'm wrong.

[Dreamer Tatum]

50. This is the opposite of parenting. nt

[Owl]

125. I agree.

[gordianot]

55. If they truly ever had to deal with an actual physical gender isuue they might know how wrong.

I am strongly in favor of all humans defining their sexuality but really this is terrible.

[Warren DeMontague]

64. I think using your kid to try to make a socio-political statement, sucks.

There's a big difference between allowing kids the freedom to express themselves how they want, and pushing stuff on them.

[MadrasT]

67. My parents did pretty much the same thing to me except they did not keep my biological sex a secret

I am not big on using children as social psychology or science experiments, but I don't believe this will necessarily psychologically scar the child for life.

I am grateful that I was raised with the full range of gender fluidity available to me to wear as I see fit.

People who are all wrapped up in their gender being a key part of their core identity are very mysterious to me.

[Orrex]

69. I wonder why we don't see him in any stereotypically "boy" clothes in those pics

I mean, who doesn't love a shiny magenta windbreaker?

But in an article that stresses the parents' attempt at gender-neutrality, it's curious that we see him in clothes that don't match to conventions of boy clothing.


All in all, I can't imagine that this will have much of a negative impact upon him. Children can recover from brutal religious indoctrination during their early years, and this doesn't seem to have been anywhere near as stifling or oppressive.

My only objection would be to the denial of the boy's own preferences, that is, refusing to allow him to wear "boy" clothing if he expressed a wish to do so.

[tularetom]

70. Tell me again WTF this was supposed to accomplish

If they were going to let the kid decide whether he wanted to be a boy or a girl that would be silly enough.

But they decided for him he was gonna be a girl. And now they have finally decided, nope, he'll be a boy from now on.

This is some of the craziest shit I've ever heard of. And now that those pictures are all over the interwebs, I would not want to be that poor kid when he becomes a teenager.

Maybe I'm missing something but IMO this is borderline child abuse.

[marions ghost]

92. They did not decide he was gonna be a girl

Where do you get that from?

If this is child abuse, I don't think you've seen child abuse.

[all american girl]

76. I think she was thinking about it all too hard. Kids will come into their own,

if we don't get nutty about it. When my son was a toddler, he loved trucks, cars, and necklaces. When I would put on make-up, he would want me to put it on him. Now that he's 19 years old, he listens to metal music, studying computers in school, wears black hoodies, and jeans...color is just not in his vocabulary

Soooo, in the end, it doesn't matter, kids will become who they are if we just love them

[Throd]

79. Mom is a narcissist, forcing her "enlightenment" on a poor child.

[galileoreloaded]

84. blatant neglect and abuse

= one fucked up kid

[JI7]

87. i think what the parents did was Stupid at worst but the kid will be fine since

it looks as if they love and take good care of him.

there are a lot of parents who do things to/for their kids claiming it's to help the kids but it's more about the parents. in some cases it can be harmful like the idiot sports parents who start abusing their kids if they don't do well. or the pageant and other parents who put so much pressure on their kids to do well in something that is mostly worthless.

but what these parents did is not really hurting the kid . i have more of an issue with those who think there is something wrong with the kid over wearing "girly" things. and that comment about how he will need a gun now, like wtf ?????

[pnwmom]

118. I think these parents are just like the "idiot sports parents"

and the other narcissistic parents who meet their own needs through their kids.

Here's a youtube of the boy, trying to please his mom by parroting off the correct answers to her questions. This isn't about him -- it's about her.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/parents-of-gender-neutral-boy-sasha-post-165350

[JI7]

119. how about parents who tell their kids to be nice to everyone ?

kids who are very young are in some ways repeating what is told to them and as they get older they would understand those things better.

[pnwmom]

124. It depends. If they're doing it narcissistically -- in order to make their kids perform --

then it isn't good parenting.

If they're trying to teach their kids to be empathic and aware of other people's feelings, then it's good parenting.

[Quantess]

89. More recently there was baby Storm.

S/he was a hot topic in 2011.

[pnwmom]

114. Here's a youtube of the boy being coached by Beck

to say the correct things. He's the trained seal at the circus -- which is how narcissists like these parents treat their children.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/parents-of-gender-neutral-boy-sasha-post-165350

[Dreamer Tatum]

131. I think the real question is: will he grow up to beat women, or be beaten by them?

Those seem like the only two possible outcomes of this hideous and sick "parenting" practices.

[nomorenomore08]

121. Humans are funny creatures...

I mean, the parents' approach does seem slightly bizarre but so are some of the reactions...

[JI7]

127. i think some of the reactions are worse

that they would view a little boy wearing things that are traditionally for girls as being so horrible as to cause mental illness.

how about telling a little kid they will go to hell if they don't believe in something ?

[nomorenomore08]

128. They're certainly nowhere near as bad as a lot of parents.

At least they quite obviously care about their kid.

[snooper2]

162. Yeah, just have weird views on shit...

Or should I say, more "enlightened" than the rest of us....

That's what I get from reading her blog. The mom just calls herself Beck. She was with some chap who's been living with her for two years, that's dad. (together 7 years now, was reading blog from when Sasha was born)...


Apparently you don't really have to change nappies "diapers" very often

http://beckblogbeckblog.blogspot.co.uk/search?updated-min=2006-01-01T00:00:00Z&updated-max=2007-01-01T00:00:00Z&max-results=13

"I fed the infant (we are of course breastfeeding - and using cloth nappies - being in that particular social demographic (and more on all that later, of course)), then remembered - oh bugger - that we'd agreed we'd try to change the child's nappy a bit more often. Apparently they don't actually mind sitting in warm wee, but eventually their bottoms get a bit sore and then you feel guilty."

"However, we've really been leaving it too long, we think, so decided we'd try to do three changes a day, which if we change in the morning gives us roughly 8am, 4pm and midnight. This I remembered at 1am this morning. Oh, as I said, bugger. A had just gone to sleep and wasn't to be roused. So I did it, and it wasn't too bad - cloth nappies are actually a cinch, and I'll explain all about them another time - in the meantime, the nappy lady can tell you everything - fantastic site."



GROSSSS!!!! LOL...

[nomorenomore08]

168. Yeah, weird. But not so awful in the grand scheme of things.

nt

[pnwmom]

148. I think you're misunderstanding people's objections here.

No one is worried that a little boy will be harmed by wearing pink or tutus or whatever -- if it's his choice.

The harm is in the mother's narcissism. She's forcing the child into a mold of her making. In that video, she's forcing him to parrot her views, and until very recently she's also been making him feel there's something wrong with acknowledging the fact that he's a boy.

She's been turning him into a living showcase for her philosophical/political point of view.

She's just like any other self-absorbed stage mother. She doesn't get excused just because her views on gender issues are very progressive.

[JI7]

153. most kids that young wear what their parents want them to

how about parents who raise their kids to be vegetarians ? or to believe in a god that thinks those who don't believe in that god will go to hell ?

i just don't think what she is doing is as bad as many are trying to make it out to be. at worst maybe it might be embarrassing . but i think with the way they are raising him he will see the world in a way where he will have a better idea of what matters more.

[pnwmom]

155. This isn't about his clothes or his toys!

This is about her narcissism -- she's just using him to prove her beliefs. Good parents validate their children as separate human beings -- which she doesn't seem capable of doing.

How would you feel if this was a biological male who was strongly identifying as a girl, and the parents were forcing him to deny his own feelings?

Well, this boy knows he is a boy and she's been giving him the message that he can't tell anyone. That there's something wrong with letting people know he's a boy.

She said it's been getting harder and harder to keep his gender a secret -- obviously because he just wants to be who he is. It was fine that she was doing this when he was a baby. No harm done. But as soon as he was able to express his own preference and his own identity as a boy, that should have been the end of this experiment.

[KentuckyWoman]

135. They encouraged him to hide his masculinity? That's not neutral.

Look we all experiment on the kids a little at the beginning. We do what we think is best and they did that. The couple said they would have stopped it if the boy was hurting and I believe them.

However, they did miss the mark on "neutral". At least in my opinion "neutral" means they encourage the child to be whomever they are. If a boy wants dolls and fairy wings why not. To this couple maybe "neutral" meant wanting to teach a boy to be in touch with the stereotypical feminine side as well.

Everything is a bit of a social experiment. It will be interesting to see how this movement plays out over time.

[nomorenomore08]

136. I did find that implication somewhat troubling. Although at least they're letting him "be a boy"

now that he's started school. Like others have said, only time will tell.

[Lex]

137. People are so freakin' weird about gender. Obsessive even. nt

[Demo_Chris]

164. My company does fantasy makeup and facepainting...

At fairs and carnivals and special events. We do this professionally. We work primarily in Texas, Oklahoma, and Louisiana -- so pretty much the buckle of the bible belt.

Every weekend we typically see at least a few little kids who want something nontraditional. It might be a little girl who wants something scary, or a boy who wants flowers on his face or a neon pink butterfly or dinosaur tattoo. The parents generally fall into three categories of response:

Group One: is absolutely unwilling to allow their little guy to be painted up as a pink kitty (or whatever) and they force their kid to do something else.

Group Two: Doesn't want the kid to do whatever it is, and will try to discourage them, but they are willing to go along with it if the kid really wants it.

Group Three: Genuinely doesn't care at all. If their little guy wants his face painted to look like a neon rainbow kitty with extra glitter they don't bat an eye.

Five years ago it was unbelievably rare to see a parent in group three, and even group two's were bloody unusual, but this is changing RAPIDLY. Where five years ago you might see the parent of four year old allow their boy to be a butterfly if he wanted (incredibly, they would often try to apologize to us for the little guy not choosing the correct thing) today we see parents who are fine with it pretty much every day. And not on some infant who can be excused for not "knowing any better" but on older boys and girls -- nine and ten.

It's still amazing to see the reactions of the parents. From the shocked (and occassionally horrified) expressions on their faces it's obvious that in many cases this is the first time they have ever even considered the issue, let alone confronted it in such a clear-cut way. Parents like this often turn to us for reassurance. But like I said, this is all changing unbelievably quickly. Five years ago it was unbelievably rare to run into a parent that would let their little boy be whatever he wanted. Today -- even in small town bible belt Oklahoma -- instead of saying no you are as likely as not to hear the parent saying yes.

It always makes my day a little brighter when I see some Oklahoma rancher smiling and telling his son, "Boy, you are gonna be one COOL butterfly!"

Anyway... sorry if that was a bit rambling. Need more coffee.

[marions ghost]

194. interesting...

Ah, so things are changing.......if face painting is an indicator which I think it certainly is. In fact --it's almost like a controlled social experiment!

I wonder why things are apparently easing up for young boys. Seriously. I don't claim to know.

[marshall]

166. Were the parents gender neutral as well?

I know some neighbor says the mom is sporty and the dad is emotional and cried at Wizard of Oz. But did they also cross-dress? Did they teach Sasha to call them by gender neutral names, or does Sasha call them mom and dad or some derivative of that? Unless they also participated in the gender neutral experiment, Sasha would have felt singled out and different.

[marions ghost]

188. It's not cross-dressing

it's dress-up. The mother said he wears gender neutral clothes in public, not dresses. Think of all the cultures where some form of a dress or skirt is normal for men.





When people cringe at a boy playing dress-up in a tutu, it's all about fear of teh Gay.

If this kid is wearing a tutu at 25, I'll agree he's a cross-dresser.

[redqueen]

192. The kneejerking response to this story is so VERY revealing.

I really wish people would take some time to think about the reason for their reactions.

It could be so helpful in understanding how insidious this gender bullshit is.

[marions ghost]

193. It is....

from men and women, not only men.



Reminds me of the furor over this.

[marshall]

195. The photo shows the child wearing a tutu and beads

I wouldn't classify that as gender neutral, but maybe these parents have their own definition of things regarding gender.

[marions ghost]

198. They said when he went out the kid was dressed gender neutral--pants and shirts

The tutu and the beads were for dress up--at home he could wear anything he wanted and sometimes he chose the more "female" stuff. But as clothes don't really define gender or have any relation to sexuality...why not? (My nephew wanted a party dress at 4-5--he's definitely not gay). So maybe something that would be more fun than jeans and a t-shirt for boys? Dress-up never hurt anybody. You have girls who refuse to wear anything fancy or "female." So why can't boys be a bit more the other way?

[marshall]

200. I was referring to the parents when I mention cross-dressing

I noted that the mother is wearing ear rings in the photo, so she seems to be conforming to some societal norms of gender. The child wasn't allowed to choose clothing or toys freely. He was "encouraged" to wear flowery tops and play with dolls. And it wasn't gender neutral clothing in public--he wore scallop neck tops that are specifically for girls.

My point is that if the parents are not also engaging in this open form of dressing, and perhaps even favoring dressing like the opposite gender since that is what they encourage in the child, then I think Sasha would begin to feel odd. Perhaps that is part of the reason they seem to be abandoning some of the boundaries of their experiment.

I do applaud them for the desire to raise a child who isn't confined by stereotypes, even if it took some "encouragement" on their part to enforce the process.

[marions ghost]

201. I think you missed the point

that the effort to expose him to what is called "girl stuff" --is over at his current age of five. He has plenty of time to choose to wear boy's clothes (like, the rest of his life).

Boys and girls wear earrings--so what's yer point on that? It wasn't long ago that boys wore ruffle collars and even flowers (you may not remember the 60's). Hawaiian shirts? Kilts, sarongs. Boys must be encouraged to play with dolls in a society that teaches that that is wrong.

Re your reference to the parents -- why should they not dress any way they want? That's what they are trying to teach the child. Artificial genderizing with clothes and toys at a very young age they believe can be harmful. I agree. Five or six is about the right age for the kid to choose what he likes without any special encouragement. Looks like they've also come to that conclusion.

You can't change stereotypes without some real effort.

[marshall]

202. Maybe they will write a book

It would be interesting to know more about how much the non-genderizing extended to themselves and to family dynamics. What did the child call the parents and/or grandparents? Did they use traditional gendered terms or come up with something else? When did the need to promote playing with dolls and wearing flowery tops develop? Was this something that happened as the child became aware of the outside world's view of gender, and therefore rebellion against the parents required a tweaking of the choice approach?

Perhaps they will have more details to come, or perhaps the child will speak up later.

[marions ghost]

203. Yeah reasonable questions

they should write a book, with some input from some child psychologists IMO.

I doubt they did anything but just apply their approach at birth and stick with it til now. Exactly how that went would be enlightening.

[LittleBlue]

169. Stupid parents

That boy is going to be so messed up. Hope his parents don't mind shelling out tens of thousands on therapy.

[War Horse]

184. Ok, it's the Sun. But I don't see anything 'gender neutral' portrayed here

I see an experiment with a kid.

[LWolf]

197. I'm confused about the point.

It seems like the parents are more chained to gender stereotypes than they'd like to admit.

Otherwise, they could let their kid be a boy; the boy he is. I don't think alternating between "girl'" and "boy's" clothing is exactly gender neutral; it still attaches gender stereotyping to the clothing.

Couldn't they just provide him with a wide range of toys and let him play with what he wants, and provide him with actually gender neutral clothing, unless he expressed an interest in something else? Isn't it okay to be a boy or girl raised without traditional gender stereotyping? How does pretending that gender doesn't exist advance this cause?

[marions ghost]

199. Read the story

he wears gender neutral clothes outside the house. He gets to choose at home. I think the point is that it is very hard to raise a child without "traditional gender stereotyping." It's the over emphasis and artificiality of attaching gender to clothes and toys that is the problem.

We are only talking about young children, to age 4-5 at the outside.

It's interesting that people have the most visceral reaction to the clothes.

Go down the aisles of any toy store. I call it the "pink/purple vs camo" aisles. What is this doing to the kids?