Court says woman with limited English can be kept off ballot

[Snake Alchemist]

(Reuters) - Arizona's Supreme Court on Tuesday ruled that a city council candidate with limited English language skills can be kept off the ballot in a largely bilingual town on the Mexico border.

A Yuma County Superior Court judge touched off a furor last week when he disqualified Alejandrina Cabrera, 35, from running for city council in the town of San Luis over what he called a "large gap" between her English proficiency and that required to serve as a public official.

In a brief two-page ruling, the Arizona Supreme Court did not give a reason why it sided with the lower court, but said a written decision would follow "in due course."

The controversy has swept San Luis, a sleepy farming town hugging the Arizona-Mexico border, into the incendiary national debate over immigration.

http://news.yahoo.com/arizona-su…

One thing I cannot understand is how you can graduate from a US high school without a proficient command of the English language. Tried to post this on LBN, but it was locked for not being LBN?

[DCKit]

1. Yet Republicans keep running.

If a guy who speaks gibberish (two guys, in fact) can be governor of Texas, then one of them rise to the pResidency, English as a first language is out the window.

Time to level the playing field.

[Lunacee2012]

6. Don't fprget the Governator.

I can only understand about half of what he says.

[pennylane100]

2. I did not realize that she went to an american high school.

I saw her being interviewed on television and I must admit that I found her comprehension of the English language to be very limited. I understand that most of her constituents are fluent in Spanish but that does not mean that those who are only fluent in English lose the right to be able to understand the person elected to represent them. I do not understand why someone with the political ambition to run for office would not take that little extra step and learn the language of the land that they live in.

I have said before that I think she is to be commended for wanting to take on the responsibility of running for office but I think she owes it to the people she represents to be able to read and understand all the many documents and legal aspects of her job and she has to be able to do so in English.

I do not see this as a racist decision, more like a reasonable qualification needed to hold public office.

[SoapBox]

3. ...just say'n.

There are so many "pockets" now in America, that have become like living in persons native land.

There is a city in the Los Angeles area, South Gate, that is 94.8% Latino (from 2010 Census...total population 94,396).
I met someone for lunch there years ago...we went to a local restaurant that had great food BUT, they
had to round up someone to speak English to us. The menu and everything there was in Spanish. So while many
most likely speak English/some English, there are simply those that speak only Spanish.

SO...I can see how someone can get through school with little to no English.

...just say'n.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

4. Easily

Fluency in English is clearly not a graduation requirement from what I see almost daily.

[NashvilleLefty]

5. One word - "Staffers"

Most laws are written in "legalese" which is mostly Latin rather than English to begin with. Most reps need staffers to explain laws to them to begin with. What's the problem?

[DCKit]

7. The problem is having a Latina on the city council.

Honestly, is there any law stating that a non-English speaker is ineligible for office?

I think the judge(s) and her opponents may have stepped in some deep doo-doo with this one.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

15. The suit was brought by the town's Latino mayor

Although many believe it was retaliation because the would-be candidate unsucessfully tried to have the mayor recalled.

And yes, there is just such a law in AZ but its constitutionality is obviously questionable. I guess we'll see.

[amandabeech]

58. "The would-be candidate unsuccessfully tried to have the mayor recalled." Ouch!!

I agree with your statements about the Constitutionality of this law.

On edit: I'd be surprised if this law has not been challenged. Is it part of the recent immigration-related legislation? Not a member of the AZ bar so have no idea.

[amandabeech]

59. Staffers are ALWAYS key, but to correct your point on modern legal drafting,

there are very, very, very few latin terms used in drafting laws or in legal pleadings these days, and the definitions and explanations in English are readily availbable on line.

[LeftishBrit]

8. Thought Palin wasn't running anyway?

[JustAnotherGen]

13. I'm glad I'm not the only one

Who saw the subject and thought: She's baaaaaaaaaack.

[me b zola]

9. Entonces? Que Tienes?

Everyone knows that English was spoken in the Southwest before Spanish, right?

[grantcart]

10. She was mostly raised in Mexico and graduated from a school that allows Bilingual classes

Here is a brief interview with her.

I heard her on Yuma TV and it is clear that she would have a lot of difficulty participating in a City council session in English.

[me b zola]

14. You listened for her proficiency, but you may have missed important facts of the story

It is a small community that is 90% hispanic and English is not the primary language in that community.

There may have been some validity to your comment if she was a native English speaker who was not fluent in Spanish.

[grantcart]

18. I am actually living in an area that is served by Yuma TV at the time

Her English is terrible and she could not participate in City Council meetings.

The mayor and all of the other council people are against her serving as she could not participate in council discussions.

English is the language of the city council.

I actually work in that area about 2 days a week.

She didn't challenge the basic facts of the case that she couldn't participate in council meetings, her solution was that the council should hire an interpreter and everything be translated.

I lived in a country where I had to use a second language 90% of the time. My wife and children speak English as a second language.

This woman's English isn't low for an American Hispanic, or someone living in a border community, it is low for a Mexican who lives in the interrior of the country. She never really tried to learn English and it is painfully obvious.

[morningfog]

22. Would the council hire an interpreter if a council member were deaf?

[grantcart]

23. not quite the same analogy

The question here would be would the council hire someone to teach a deaf person sign language who never made an effort to learn sign language.

If it were a deaf person you wouldn't have to translate all of the written documents, contracts, managers reports as well.


All of the other politicians are Hispanic. In this case English is the language of business, the language of contracts, etc. If she does remain in office she won't be disadvantaged, her constituents will be.

[Freddie Stubbs]

28. The American with Disabilities Act does not classify ESOL as a disibility

[Vattel]

49. What's wrong with using a translator?

[pampango]

11. Her "limited English skills" would be an issue. Her position on issues would be even more important.

If I thought her positions were much better than those of other candidates, I should not be forced to vote for other candidates who did not reflect my beliefs just because the others are better at English. She will probably converse more fluently in English eventually (and can hire staff who can help her in the meantime), but candidates who don't share my beliefs now probably never will.

[rucky]

12. Why do they hate democracy?

[Vattel]

16. Fuck Arizona's racism and bigotry.

Obviously she should hold office. I don't necessarily blame the court, as they are required to follow the law, but any law that requires English proficiency is racist.

[Snake Alchemist]

17. What if the law was that all English teachers must be able to speak English? nt

[morningfog]

19. That law would make sense.

This one doesn't.

[marmar]

20. Strawman. English proficiency would be a job requirement for an English teacher.....

...... regardless of law.

[Snake Alchemist]

29. Does not meet the definition of a strawman.

Just because it may be redundant does not make it a strawman. I'm sure we could find a handful of English teachers who cannot speak the language well.

[treestar]

21. Based on what though?

Do they have a language requirement for holding office? She could use an interpreter if needed. It's up to the voters.

[Beacool]

24. I'm sorry, but I don't think the court is wrong on this one.

The woman has lived in this country for years and even attended high school in the US. If she wants to run for office, at the very least she should be proficient in the language.

My father was a diplomat and I lived in several countries. Learning the language was a given. If I were to live in France, I would expect to have to be fluent in French if I wanted to get a job, let alone run for public office.

[EFerrari]

26. The town is more than 80% Latino. She is proficient in the language. ETA

per the last census, 89%.

[Snake Alchemist]

30. If she was running for state senate, would your argument be that 75% of the state is caucasian?

[EFerrari]

32. She isn't running for the state senate.

The better comparison would be, should Obama be proficient in Spanish because more than 10% of Americans are Spanish speakers?

[Snake Alchemist]

33. But you didn't answer my question?

[EFerrari]

34. I did. Your question is based on a faulty comparison.

The situation of San Luis is not comparable to that of Arizona.

[Snake Alchemist]

35. So I can assume that you would argue that she should speak English in that case?

Or is it always Spanish no matter what the percentage?

[EFerrari]

37. I don't think English should be a requirement.

The electorate should decide on the canditate, imo. But at the state level, there would be a practical need for fluent English, right?

[Snake Alchemist]

38. I would think so.

I guess they could argue that all city council business is conducted in English, and all contracts and laws are presented in English. I imagine that is what the courts have been looking at.

I think this whole thing is a non-issue. I think the real issue lies with how a HS in the US graduates a person who is not proficient in English. Do they just burn and churn the kids these days?

[EFerrari]

41. Except we don't know what language is used in the council, on contracts or on legal docs.

And, in a largely Spanish speaking community, the value of holding someone back only because of English deficiency would be dubious.

The AZ courts are likely looking at the new law that makes English the official language of the state, a law that is itself unconstitutional and will likely be overturned at some point.

[Snake Alchemist]

65. Very true.

Hope we get more details.

[EFerrari]

66. As a point of comparison, here on the east side of San Jose

there is a huge Latino community that goes way back. I don't even have to hear English unless I want to because there are merchants of all kinds that provide services in Spanish. That includes notaries, realtors, banks, insurance brokers, attorneys and so on. Most people speak both English and Spanish but there is a large contingent so recently arrived that Spanish is the primary language at home. That will probably change a little in the next ten years or so because the flow has been in the other direction (to Mexico) since about 2006.

[amandabeech]

52. Check out Grantcart's post #18, above.

She says that she lives in the area, and that the city council does all its business in English. She also says that contracts, and I presume most business docs in general, are in English, despite the fact that most people speak Spanish. The council members are all Hispanic Americans.

[EFerrari]

54. No, thank you.

[Honeycombe8]

67. So a large minority of the constituency won't be able to understand her?

If she spoke English, virtually everyone in the constituency would be able to understand her, right?

I see the point of the courts. Still, since English isn't the national language, I don't see how keeping her from running can be legal.

If things were working properly, the spanish speaking constituents wouldn't vote for her, since she can't communicate with all the constituents. Otherwise, the county or whatever will have to pay for an interpreter to follow her around to interpret every time she speaks publicly.

These are tough questions. I see both sides.

I come from deep Louisiana. French. My father and grandparents speak/spoke fluent French, as did a lot of others. But not everyone. Would someone who spoke only French been elected? I doubt the majority would've voted for someone who didn't speak English, to communicate to everyone. But if the constituents elected him/her, I guess it would be legal. But an interpreter would probably have to be hired, as if she were mute and had to have an interpreter translate her sign language.

[EFerrari]

68. There is no question to my mind that being bilingual is preferable.

But this looks like it started out as retaliation by the mayor she helped try to recall and then, it moved up the food chain until it bumped into the AZ laws that make English the official language of the state.

There is no practical reason to keep her off of the city council ballot of this little town that trumps allowing the voters to decide, imo. And in a community like that, every other person on the street is an interpreter. I was translating for my grandmother by the time I was five, no kidding. And I had to do a good job because she understood everything but was embarrassed by her accent.

My guess is that in a majority Spanish speaking community, she wouldn't have much trouble being elected for that issue alone because most of us have had the experience of translating for someone who doesn't speak one or the other language.

[Honeycombe8]

78. Ahhh...I didn't know that AZ had an official language. So that's it.

That sounds legal, then, to keep her off the ballot. If it's legal to have an official state language. Is that legal? How can a state have an official language if the country doesn't?

[EFerrari]

79. It should be challenged on a number of grounds

and I imagine, it will be at some point. But remember, the Republicans in Arizona have been on a discriminatory rampage against Latinos. No one has seen fit to do anything about it yet, that I know of, anyway.

[Honeycombe8]

82. I can't believe that hasn't been challenged. But you know, I can sort of understand...

how the state got to the point where it is. I live in nearby TX. There comes a point where the citizens just get fed up. We're not at that point, but I hear grumblings, and I feel certain grumblings myself. I feel the pain caused by illegals. That is often not discussed, and no one seems to care much about that, except others who have been touched by it.

AZ, though, has to deal with the violence from Mexico..the druggies, the drug cartel, the violent offenders, that cross into their state daily. I imagine that plays a part in the feelings of Arizona citizens.

It doesn't excuse AZ. But it is a beginning of a sort of explanation for how they got to where they are. It's been building for a long time, until finally they decided to do something. They're doing some wrong things. But no one seems to have an answer.

The English thing surprises me, though.

[EFerrari]

83. Immigrants have a lower crime rate than the general population.

And as Latinos are about 30% of the total population of the state, attacks on them are attacks on citizens.

[Vattel]

47. The issue is not whether she would lack of the skills necessary to do a good job.

I mean, how many office holders have all of the skills necessary to do a good job. I would argue that Obama lacks some of the skills necessary to do a good job. The voters rightly or wrongly decided that she would be better at the job than her opponents, and they voted accordingly. It's called democracy.

Besides, in her district not knowing Spanish would probably be at least as big a liability as not being proficient in English.

[varelse]

25. Does every city council candidate in Yuma county have to pass an English test to get on the ballot?

If the qualification process is the same for every candidate, and reasonably addresses the qualifications required to serve, it shouldn't be a problem.

Otherwise, the voters should be allowed to decide if the candidates are 'qualified'. By voting.

[EFerrari]

27. Probably only the ones who try to get the mayor recalled.

[varelse]

42. Hmm that would explain a lot

I'm thinking if 50% or more of the electorate in the city is proficient only in Spanish, the council should probably require candidates to be bilingual OR they should hire a translator. It's kind of difficult to represent people you cannot communicate with at all, isn't it?

[fujiyama]

81. Even if all candidates were required to "pass a test" it may or may not be constitutional

I'm not sure if literacy tests have been completely struck down in the past by the USSC...

It reminds me of literacy and poll tests during Jim Crow.

[dembotoz]

31. a toy poodle should be able to get on a ballot is it gets enough signiture

the idea is for the citizens to be able to elect who THEY want.

not for the mayor or the judge to decide

as long as she meets the requirements--what ever they are--over 18, no felony.
and she has met the requirements of signitures--assume they have some standard....


she should get on

period

no brainer

[Blue_Tires]

36. +1

If it's an issue with the voters in that town, then they should vote for someone else...Simple...

[RZM]

39. The problem is the challenge by the mayor is based on a state law

That says that public officials must demonstrate suitable competency in the English language. What the standards are I don't know, but the mayor apparently felt she didn't meet them and from what I can tell, the court agreed.

So that argument doesn't quite work. According to the way the court has interpreted that law, she doesn't meet the basic requirements to hold public office in the state. We can debate all day whether that law should or should not be on the books. But for now it's there.

[Freddie Stubbs]

40. The problem is that she does not meet all of the requirements

Arizona has a long-standing law which requires all elected officials to be proficient in English.

[EFerrari]

43. A law that should be challenged because it is unconstitutional

as well as in conflict with Guadalupe Hidalgo.

[Freddie Stubbs]

46. What provision of the Constitution does it violate?

[EFerrari]

51. Equal protection, ya think?

[Freddie Stubbs]

56. Not if the state can prove that proficiency in English is a bona fide occupational qualification:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bona_fide_occupational_qualifications

[EFerrari]

60. In a town that is 89% Latino?

Sorry but, no.

There is no reason to deny this lady her position on the ballot for not speaking good enough English unless you are the mayor she tried to unseat.

[Freddie Stubbs]

69. Latino does equate with an inability to speak English

In fact, there is a significant drop-off in ability to speak Spanish among second and third generation Latinos.

[EFerrari]

72. But we weren't talking about ability or about losing Spanish proficiency as a good thing.

You do understand that people aren't limited to speaking one language, right? It's not an either/ or situation.

[EX500rider]

73. "as well as in conflict with Guadalupe Hidalgo"

Which article in the treaty says Spanish shall be a optional language for US government proceedings?

copy of treaty here:

http://www.mexica.net/guadhida.php

[EFerrari]

74. Please use the Google.

The language rights of Spanish speakers are protected by GH, originally as a way to protect land rights. Spanish is co-equal with English in the covered territory.

[EX500rider]

75. Don't need "the google"...

....as I posted a link to the text of the treaty and after reading it thru twice I see no provision for Spanish being a optional language for the proceedings of US government affairs.

You are the one claiming it does, so again, what article in the treaty are you refering to?

[EFerrari]

76. You realize that law libraries exist because legal documents are not transparent, right?

I'm sorry to sound surly but I've posted this stuff many times and the prospect of getting carpal tunnel reposting isn't attractive.

You need to look at 8 & 9. Mexicans and their descendants were guaranteed their liberty, property and religion, explicitly, but implicitly, they were guaranteed their culture.

That is why in California and in Texas, and likely New Mexico, what you are asking was taught to school children before this last wave of anti-Mexican propaganda was catapulted by the Republicans.

[EX500rider]

77. Don't see it, sorry...

Mostly because it's not there.

#9
"enjoyment of all the rights of citizens of the United States, according to the principles of the Constitution; and in the mean time, shall be maintained and protected in the free enjoyment of their liberty and property, and secured in the free exercise of their religion without; restriction."

Mentions nothing about their culture or language. Not even implied. Speaking Spanish is neither a religion nor property nor liberty.

#8 has even less to do with it as it pertains solely to property rights.

So what phrasing in the treaty has any relation to the right to conducting of official US government business in Spanish?

[Vattel]

48. A fucking racist law.

[Freddie Stubbs]

50. Perhaps it is racist to assume that one particular racial group is incapable of speaking English

[Vattel]

53. classic

[golfguru]

44. Our biggest advantage over Europe & India is...the English language

India has larger college educated middle class than USA. They have
lower wages. Their economy is expanding at 6-8% for last decade.
But they have a major problem...there are 17 major languages spoken!
Not only that makes communication difficult, people are divided based
on language.

China has 2 distinct languages. Not as bad as India.

Europe has a modern and developed economy. But again they speak a
different language in each country. That is an obvious roadblock in smooth
flow of commerce.

Even our neighbor Canada has problems with 2 major languages spoken.
We have a huge advantage in one language spoken by all Americans.

[amandabeech]

55. Thanks for bringing up the Canadian situation.

Most people here don't know that Canada is officially bilingual. It is also bicultural, and that the last secession vote in Quebec a few years ago very nearly succeeded.

I used to live with someone who was English speaking and from Ontario. Instead of choosing French as her second language, she chose Spanish. When she wanted to become employed with a Canadian NGO or the Canadian federal government, she couldn't get a decent job because she had no French.

She had done sciences graduate school here in the U.S., so she managed to get a job here under a NAFTA visa that was meant for skilled building tradesmen. She then won the H1-B lottery and will be here for a long time.

She chose the U.S. because she doesn't need a second language in her position, and because there's more money here.

She now advises U.S. public institutions on science and education policy.

I usually feel like I have quite a bit in common with English-speaking Canadians, but I noticed with her that she really didn't understand freedom of speech and the first amendment. It was impossible for me to get her to understand why
our government can't ban conservatives from talking on TV. Free speech was a totally alien concept to her. I know that Canada does differ from the U.S., but I was really surprised at this.

[Snake Alchemist]

57. Actually, the official language of Quebec is English as well as the rest of Canada. nt

[amandabeech]

61. You might check the Wiki on Canadian Bilingualism.

It's explanation of the situation is much closer to what I've read and what I've heard from Canadian friends and colleagues over the years.

[Snake Alchemist]

62. Sorry. I was thinking about something totally different. nt

[amandabeech]

64. No problem. n/t

[EFerrari]

63. No, our major advantage over Europe and India is the MIC, not English.

And one language is not spoken by all Americans.

[LanternWaste]

45. A dozen years into the techno-21st century

A dozen years into the techno-21st century, yet many among us are still allowing a most simply and avoidable issue to divide and discourage us.

I suppose this particular strata of leadership believes that finding differences is much more important than finding solutions.

[sofa king]

70. Excellent. No more George W. Bushes.

After all, we still teeter on the brink of disaster three years after a narcissist with limited communication skills nearly destroyed America.

Good job there, Arizona!

[dembotoz]

71. i grew up in milwaukee--a town of germanic heritage

from what i have read about how strong the german community was back in the day.
had someone been denied the abiltiy to run for office because his speech was a little too german.
i just do not thing that would have happened

[fujiyama]

80. Wow that's crazy. Three years in a US HS and she couldn't answer which school she graduated from?

While I really don't understand how someone could run for any public office in the US not being proficient in English, I'm not sure how proficiency in English is necessarily determined. In this particular case, it's fairly obvious she isn't proficient in the least but it seems somewhat arbitrary, unless there's an actual language test given (that too to all candidates running for office), which would likely be unconstitutional in itself.

I think there are some very tricky legal issues here, especially as this country becomes more multi-ethnic and with many areas such as these border towns which are so isolated that you can go three years in HS without having even a very basic understanding of English...