I have a Catholic question. How come they still can't use birth control but can go to war and kill

[Obama3_16]

I just don't understand that at all. YOu can't use a rubber, but go ahead and smoke those Afghanis? What a fucked up premise.

[Motown_Johnny]

1. they/we have been going to war and killing since before there was birth control

It is grandfathered in.













Full disclosure: 12 years of Catholic school but I am now agnostic and was never confirmed.

[Obama3_16]

3. I just think out of all the crap going on in the world, the "eat fish on fridays" and other idiotic

papal rulings fly in the face of what Christianity and all of religion are supposed to be about.

[Motown_Johnny]

8. eating less meat is a good thing

As I mentioned, I no longer practice Catholicism but I do give up red meat for Lent. It is healthier and better for the planet as a whole.

[Obama3_16]

9. whatevah! they are straining out the gnat and gulping down the camel

and it doesn't matter what this or that specific bishop does, when the VATICAN rules on these things and can come up with a bunch of rules that constrain common sense but have to ban on Catholics running off to war to kill, kill, kill....I have a problem with that.

[julian09]

21. Saint Peter was a fisherman

he wanted to sell fish on Friday.

[obamanut2012]

24. You only eat fish on Fridays during Lent

I think everyone should do a "Meatless Monday." It would be great if the RC changed it to no meat at all.

There is nothing wrong with a little self sacrifice. I'm not Catholic and I make a habit of it once a week.

[Obama3_16]

27. before Vatican 2 wasn't it no meat on every Friday? Why did God call the pope phone and change

I am just saying why is it ok to game the God system and sin, sin, sin 6 days a week.....then go offer your confessions and come away with your penance of saying some prayers?

it's like....if a guy murdered someone and asked for forgiveness, he's ok with the church. but if a woman divorced her husband she was excommunicated.

[obamanut2012]

52. You have a misconception of what the confessional and penance is

Your intent is weighed. You are not allowed "to sin sin sin."

Maybe you should research and study this instead of being so flippant.

[dflprincess]

58. Yes, before Vatican II it was no meat every Friday

But you don't understand Confession - many non-Catholics don't.

We were taught in Catechism that there is no point in confessing to something you are not truly sorry for. As Sister told us "You can fool the priest into granting absolution but that won't do any good because you can't fool God." On the other hand, Sister made the mistake of telling us that if we were truly sorry for a sin, God would forgive us even if we didn't dropped dead before we got a chance to go to Confession. Doubting Thomas that I was even at age 7, I did wonder why I should bother with going to Confession if God knew I was sorry.

[dflprincess]

49. Actually, it's just no meat on Fridays during Lent. No rule that you have to eat fish n/t

[obamanut2012]

51. That's actually what I meant

[MANative]

32. That's a hold-over from the days when eating fish was considered ...

a penance or sacrifice because meat was the preferred meal. As a kid, it always struck me as incredibly dumb because having grown up in a seaport, I loved fish and considered it a treat to have any and every day of the week. Today, the cost of fish has risen so much that it's truly a treat, and I'm lucky to afford it once a month. And you can't get good fish here in CT, not like the stuff I used to buy (and still can, when I go home to visit) off the docks in New Bedford at less than half the price.

This rule was in place for all Fridays until the mid-60s when it became a Lent-only "requirement." Again, no penance for me!

The RCC does things just to exert apparent control over people, and on the thinnest of premises. Still haven't been able to get my cousin the priest/biblical scholar to share with me any definitive bible text that prohibits limiting the size of one's family. My MIL, rest her soul, used birth control in the 60s and 70s, as did my mother in the 70s and 80s, and neither thought twice about it. It's a very small percentage of women who, once they've decided that their families are complete, are dumb enough to follow this edict.

The passage that most people point to about "spilling seed" being a sin - can't recall the passage citation and too lazy to go look it up right now - is actually about preserving inheritance rights within a family. (The woman's husband died, leaving her without a son. The practice at the time dictated that his brother would be compelled to impregnate her to preserve the land rights in his brother's line. He slept with her, but "pulled out" so that HIS OWN line would keep the family inheritance. That's what the elders were pissed off about - his greed and selfishness.)

[Obama3_16]

33. yup. I know the verse. Leviticus? and some use it to say masturbation is a sin

because you know....your sperm should ONLY be used inside a vagina to make a baby. no other options allowed.

[MANative]

37. And by that logic...

every boy who's ever had a wet dream is guilty, guilty, guilty of the most heinous sin! Off with his head! LOL

It think it is Leviticus, but I wouldn't bet the house, just 'cause I'm no biblical scholar!

[gopiscrap]

2. Almost all Catholic Bishops are against war and the death penalty also

while I don't agree with their reporductive stance, I do agree with the rest of their pro life stance (social safety net, no war, no death penalty etc) if you read the 1986 Bishop's Pastoral Letter on he Economy, a direct response to Reagan, it is an excellent document. What's distressing to me with the RC church it is has been hijacked more and more by one issue prelates.

[metalbot]

22. Excellent reading

http://www.usccb.org/upload/economic_justice_for_all.pdf

Not that anyone on this thread will...

[gopiscrap]

47. I read it

but then again I was one of the focus groups to give input into it...

[NoGOPZone]

34. Yes, although you'd never know it from watching EWTN nt

[LiberalEsto]

4. The only life they care about

is from sperm to just before birth.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

6. That actually is not true.

Mainstream Catholicism is focused on the poor and underprivileged.
It is the fruitcakes who ruin it, that and their homosexual policies, even though a lot priests are actually homosexuals.
Duckie

[metalbot]

14. That's fundamentally untrue about the Catholic Church

The Church is 100% against the death penalty, and opposes most military actions. It's also very socially progressive on issues of poverty, homelessness, education, and hunger.

[kysrsoze]

18. That is true. Ratzinger has spoken out against the wars. ALL priests/pastors should, IMO.

[Johonny]

30. The only reason in the US this is less known

is the conservative political values in the US church structure tend to focus on a narrow range of issues.

[hedgehog]

41. You can find statements such as that coming out of Rome all the time,

yet somehow our bishops in the US, hand-picked by Rome every one of them, never issue letters in support! Occasionally the United States Council of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) will issue a white paper on the topics of capital punishment, homelessness, labor rights etc, but I don't think any of the bishops read the white papers. They certainly don't push those agendas!

[dflprincess]

50. But it has never threatened a Catholic politician who supported the death penalty

or a war with excommunication.

[obamanut2012]

25. The Church is also anti Death Penalty and anti war

Some wars get a pass, but many don't.

There is also a strong tradition of charity within the Church, including health care. They have also often been on the right side of the workers.

I disagree with many, many stances of the Church, but there are a few things they do right.

[unblock]

5. afghans don't use rubbers, so it's ok to go ahead and smoke 'em.

they sin, they die.

at least, that's the religious right's argument.

one of them, anyway. there's no shortage of right-wing arguments justifying the taking of life when the skin is brown.

[KansDem]

7. Therein lies the rub

They don't want their tax dollars going to our birth control, but our tax dollars can go to their wars.

I haven't been able to figure this one out!

[liberal N proud]

10. It is in a song - Onward Christain Soldiers

[metalbot]

16. That's a protestant hymm... nt

[liberal N proud]

19. It was sarcasm anyway

[gopiscrap]

46. If you want a Catholci Hymn and not a Protestant one, use this:

#307 Worship II GIA Publications 1975 "Whatsoever You Do"

The peace is writtern by a Priest and is a paraphrase of "What ever you do the the least ofthese that you have done unto me" When I was hungry you fed me, when I was in prison you visited....

There is a hugely song strain of social justice teaching coursing through the veins of Catholic life...it's the fucking nut cases that are the shrillest and loudest and obscure the rest of the conversation dealing with life issues. BTW I am not RC and I do not agree with their reproductive stance...but was baptised in Europe in an RC congregation and educated in RC parish schools K-8.

[pipi_k]

11. I can't figure it out either...

So many people don't want the government telling them what to do...

They want to live by "God's Laws".

But it's NOT God telling them to go to war against an enemy...it's the government!

Bah. It's insanity.

[HappyMe]

12. Here's the thing -

Catholics aren't supposed to use bc. But believe me, they do.

There are only 2 kids in my family.
Aunt 1 has 2 kids.
Aunt 2 has 3 kids.
Aunt 3 has 4 kids.

Growing up, large families were the exception, not the rule. Just because 'the Church' says something, that doesn't mean that the Catholics out here in the real world go along with it. I haven't been a praticing Catholic for at least 25 years.

[Obama3_16]

13. yep. I know many American Catholics use b.c. and I'm sure around the world too

but Obama is getting blowback from the nutjob leadership of catholic organizations and prominent Catholic politicians like Boehner, so I am drawing out this impressively hypocritical stand. It seems like a funny hill to die trying to defend, and I hope more people in the MSM and other conversation will highlight how ludicrous these stands are.

[HappyMe]

28. I really wish the Orange Man and the

others would just stfu.

They are just using their 'faith' to advance their own agendas. They hate Obama and will throw any stumbling block at him that they can. This pisses me off.

[SharonAnn]

15. Yes, I have 65 first cousins and few of them have more than 2-3 kids.

My parents siblings all had 8-10, except for one who had only 2.

[obamanut2012]

17. The Church is against most wars

The Pope has denounced the actions in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

As much as I loathe the current Pope, he has been consistent on this.

He is also to the left of Santorum on the use of condoms.

[Obama3_16]

20. then who's making the issue in the media about Obama admin re: birth control

if it's not Catholic leadership? Help me out.

[HappyMe]

35. Every time a Presidential election rolls around,

birth control & abortion become an issue.

There are tons of crazy right wing fundies that drag this out. Any number of people/organizations with an ax to grind can crank up the bs. We can't forget that the Tea Party is out there. They have been way too quiet.


edited to fix spelling

[Avalux]

23. Dont' approach it as a 'Catholic, pro-life' question. It's an economic question.

When the no birth control decree was made, it was done so to bolster the number of Catholics in the world (same as no divorce); on the flipside, killing non-Catholic enemies also bolters their numbers; and historically, the Catholic church has supported destruction of enemies in God's name. They want as many Catholics as possible.

I was raised Catholic, and as an adult, think it's ridiculous that men make rules like no contraception and no divorce, people are told to believe it's what God wants and if they don't follow the rules, are going to hell. Bullshit.

[gkhouston]

26. Never mind; changed my mind about locking this. n/t

[Obama3_16]

29. thank you. I specifically kept it out of Politics 2012 because

I knew it wasn't 100% related to election per se...but it seems quite topical with what is happening on Obama vs. GOP vis a vis birth control.

THANKS!

[progressoid]

31. But Catholics do use birth control.

They just don't tell their priest.

[Vattel]

36. Because they don't believe that all killing is unjustified.

They believe (correctly IMHO) that some killing in war can be justified on grounds of self-defense or other-defense. As for the killing of innocent bystanders, they believe (foolishly IMHO) in the principle of double effect: if the innocent deaths are not sought as an objective, or as the means to an objective, and the good that is achieved by waging war is proportionate to the evils it inflicts, then killing even innocent bystanders in war can be justified.

[Obama3_16]

38. that's some sick crap. The Vatican was allied with Hitler. So....uh....there goes that argument

that was in no way a just war on the axis side of things where they extinguished millions of lives and had tacit support from the Pope.

But use birth control?? Off with your head!

[Vattel]

44. Yes, many Catholics are capable of hypocrisy and even murder.

I am not religious myself; so I no illusions about Catholics being particularly moral.

[Obama3_16]

45. just sayin. this push back should be called out for what it is. hypocrisy.

[obamanut2012]

53. The Vatican was not "allied with Hitler"

The Vatican didn't do enough by any means, but individual Catholic Religious and Laity did much, and saved an incredibly amount of lives, and often lost their own lives while doing so.

[RevStPatrick]

39. We are a species of contradictions...

And that's the case with every single one of us!

[TwilightGardener]

40. As others have mentioned, they're not especially supportive of war.

So really, this post is kind of moot. Doesn't stop the uninformed from backing up your wrong assertions, but... same as it ever was.

[Obama3_16]

42. of course they're not going to say they support war. but they do and always have done

they promoted conquest of other nations back in colonial days....all of this is fine in the modern Catholic church. I don't know of anyone reprimanded by the Catholic church or feeling under threat because they choose to enlist in any nation's army and go fight in wars. Even wars of choice. Yet, it's clearly taboo to mention to your priest that you're on birth control

That was the point I was making. I'm sorry you didn't understand it. Hope this clarification helps.

[HappyMe]

43. Not necessarily.

I think it would depend on the parish and the priest. Some are more conservative than others, some are quite liberal.

I can't imagine any circumstance that I would mention birth control to a priest.

[obamanut2012]

54. Not really true

[provis99]

48. well, the military has Catholic chaplains.

I don't think they're there to tell soldiers not to go to war; more likely, they're there to add religious justification to the killing.

Here are is a Catholic Wehrmacht chaplain doing just that in World War II:
http://www.google.ca/url?source=imglanding&ct=img&q=&sa=X&ei=nCkzT_iFC4Xg0QG20YTAAg&ved=0CAwQ8wc&usg=AFQjCNEc1O46TUj4OYKxJ5fwUyVAxBRAVQ

[obamanut2012]

55. A chaplain is there to give pastoral care and guidance

A friend of mine IS a priest in the military. Their duties are the same as if they had a regular parish.

[Dragonfli]

57. More appropriately they have chaplains from the Church Of Satan as well.

I have studied very little of Levay's work but from conversations I have had with some practitioners, they have a sort of Ayn Rand type of "spirituality", very much about achieving for oneself your goals and desires by any means necessary without concern for others.

[Dragonfli]

56. Everything is about interpretation, it changes over time and each Generation has

it's own hypocrisies, there are hypocritical interpretations from the church hierarchy as well as the personal application or misapplication even from that agreed framework by individual practitioners.

Modern Catholics for as long as I can remember use the "buffet meal" approach to the church rules as they exist in each era. Most Catholics I know have no problem with contraception and just ignore edicts from the church about such things.

One positive aspect I have noticed is that when the Papal authority says or does something too insane or the hierarchy is guilty of chronic sexual problems, or rather guilty of a misguided policy of hiding it and protecting the abusers, then the buffet Catholics just ignore the church stance like it was a senile uncle flashing his penis at a wedding, they don't "follow blindly" too much craziness.

I was very close to entering seminary as a young man, after much closer study of all the theology and history I could find I had to turn my back as they had lost so much of the teachings of Christ that they would condone things like killing in war, or hide sexual abuse. I felt they had lost their way.


Fundies are far crazier in general and scare the daylights out of me. I have studied theology with them and they really are as nasty and crazy as they appear in documentaries like Jesus Camp, I have met some crazier than any in that doc.