Numbed by years of terrorism

[kentuck]

Many people simply shrug off the latest massive spy scandal by the NSA as just another step in fighting the terrorists. They have accepted the new intrusions on their privacy as necessary. They seem to have forgotten where we were just 15 or 20 years ago.

Our nation has been captured by fear for the last several years. We have become numb to the war on terror. Whatever we have to do to stop them is alright with us.

We knew what we were asked to surrender when Bush and Cheney were in power. In our name, they tortured, they renditioned prisoners to other countries to be tortured, they imprisoned people without any formal charges, they invaded other countries, and they spied on all of us. After all, you were either with us or you were against us...

We were lost in that wilderness for many years and we still haven't found our way out, in my opinion. We are still not ready to reclaim our freedom and our rights that are guaranteed by our Bill of Rights in our Constitution. To the contrary, we are ready to surrender even more. But not for the war on terror but for simple political advantage... It is a long road that knows no turns.

[hobbit709]

1. Once you lose your rights it's harder to get them back than it was to get them in the first place.

[whatchamacallit]

2. Welcome to the NWO n/t

[JayhawkSD]

3. Frogs in a pot of water.

Snoozing peacefully as the water gets hotter and hotter.

If you don't know the analogy: If you throw frogs in a pot of boiling water they will jump out. If you put them in warm water and turn the heat up, they will not notice the rising heat and will sit in the water until it boils. Then you have boiled frogs.

[okaawhatever]

4. Ommm, excuse me. "We are still not ready to reclaim our freedom and our rights that are

that are guaranteed by our Bill of Rights in our Constitution. To the contrary, we are ready to surrender even more. But not for war on terror but for simple political advantage..." I call total, complete, and unadulterated bullshit on that. Which rights and freedoms are we getting ready to give up? And how are we worse off than we were during Bush?
And excuse me, but what "massive spying scandal"? The only thing I've seen is the evidence of a program we already knew about that was heavily reported, and an internet program that is used Internationally. A program i'm grateful for because it is likely what led to our being able to bust the Chinese for their atrocities and crimes against the American people and industry. For me to take you more seriously, you'll have to be at least as outraged that the Chinese gov't hacked EVERY SINGLE email of the NYT journalists. Passwords and all. 54 of them. You'll have to at least pretend to be outraged at what appears to be the N Koreans (the isp addresses go through China, but they're probably helping N Korea) hacking into reporters Rosen and Sheryl Atkisson computers'. They were elated to know the Americans had an agent inside N Korea. Rosen was more than happy to tell them so he could help promote his employer Fox news. Kinda sux to be that agent or his family though, huh? I'm sure you were outraged that Obama had "spied" on the journalists by way of a warrant.

Did you at least give Obama and co. a little credit for slowing down the Iranian nuke program without having to send in troops? Our cyber warfare program helped us keep nukes out of Iran's hands and kept Americans safe. It seems that the 1.3 billion pieces of info Snowden told Iran we were collecting for national interest offends you.

You posted earlier:
"The Attorney-General gave his approval to the NSA to do more or less whatever they wanted. And they followed few guidelines. They did whatever they wanted. Make no mistake. This is lawlessness on a grand scale. This is the scandal some folks have been looking for."

Perhaps the fact escapes you that it was the acting attorney general who refused to sign off on the executive order allowing the program the way it was constructed at the time. It was the acting attorney general who completely blew the lid off of the program under Bush. But I guess because you said it it's fact, right? Maligning Holder, the entire NSA, the President, Gen Alexander and calling for the all to be fired is problematic. The problem being they must be found to have done something wrong. Your screams of "lawlessness, that "the entire government, from top to bottom have been delinquent in their duties. Even the President has been lax in seeing that the laws are being executed in a lawful way." Problem with everything you're saying is there is no evidence to back it up.

"But Congress cannot be forgiven for their incompetence. The Attorney-General should resign. The NSA Director, Keith Alexander, needs to step down also. Obama needs to clean house with these people. The American people cannot and will not accept such lawlessness from any government officials. The DNI position should be done away with and go back to the way it was when it worked."

Damn that's pretty strong language for a group of people who have done nothing but their jobs. I'm staying tuned for Snowden to release more proof. It's been a while coming. Maybe the proof of the "massive spying scandal" of our "governments lawlessness" is with an IRS agent in Cincinatti, or outlined in an email coming form the republican senate committee. They're planning on sending it via Jonathan Karl so I may have to wait for edits.

[kentuck]

7. Thanks for validating my point.

All the world sees it but you are blind.

[okaawhatever]

9. No, all the world doesn't see it like you. You make statements like that

because facts are too inconvenient for you. I'm not blind. I've researched this extensively. That's why I don't make sweeping generalizations based on info reported by Greenwald.

[okaawhatever]

10. Oops, last statement was cut off. Once again, please cite which freedoms we are losing, how they are

greater than the losses in the past and what is illegal.

[kentuck]

12. Are the 1st, 4th, and 5th Amendments important to you?

Obviously, you do not interpret it as I do. Yes, you can still travel about freely if you don't mind taking off your shoes and having people look at your naked body and having the government put you in a database and maybe listen to your most private phone calls and just fucking with your head in general. We can sit on our big fat asses and not worry about any of that stuff if that is what we choose?

[okaawhatever]

14. Once again, you completely refuse to back up your statements earlier. You have no problem

dropping bombs like "rampant lawlessness" and how the "attorney general, fbi director and alexander should all be fired". When called to cite examples you come up with this.

Body scanners that show your body have been stopped. You don't have to take off your shoes at the airport. You don't have to fly. Flying isn't a right. If you and the tea partiers want to start an airline that doesn't do those checks, go for it. I'm not afraid that those small inconveniences are taking away my constitutional rights. The no-fly list maybe.
Yes, the government can put me in a database. Many, many people have me in a database. I'm much more concerned with the checks against politicians using it and creating a system that will record each time the database is accessed. Strengthening the ability to separate it from politicians. Maybe listen to your most private phone calls? No, not without a warrant. That hasn't changed. Yes, the gov't may do something illegal. That's the point it's illegal. I'm more concerned with separating the politicians from the info than not having it The phone company kept the same info for ten years. I'm more confident in our gov't than in corp America. They'd sell the info if they could. I do want to have the info "self destruct" after a certain amount of time. I think they're saying 5 years now. That might need shortening.

[kentuck]

15. I don't know your age...

but you are a very naive person. You trust the government much more than I and I can assure you, I am no Tea Bagger.

[Junkdrawer]

5. *ring ring* *Stranger on Phone* "How do you feel about the latest allegations that the NSA listens..

in on all phone conversations?"

Average Respondent: "Fine, just well, fine."

Color me surprised.

[Catherina]

6. Very well said Kentuck

Your ending is right on:

we are ready to surrender even more. But not for the war on terror but for simple political advantage... It is a long road that knows no turns.

[Major Hogwash]

8. "They seem to have forgotten where we were just 15 or 20 years ago."

What the hell are you going on about now?

[kentuck]

11. Go back to sleep...

This thread is not for you.

[lunatica]

13. Bush did tell us this was the New Normal

Sure enough. It is.

When asking ourselves how people could allow their governments to commit atrocities, just look at what's happening here. This how it happens. It's a process.