Snowden is going to be prosecuted.

[ProSense]

Is anyone surprised that he was charged?

U.S. charges Snowden with espionage
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023063699

He broke the law. Bruce Schneier:

Edward Snowden broke the law by releasing classified information. This isn't under debate; it's something everyone with a security clearance knows. It's written in plain English on the documents you have to sign when you get a security clearance, and it's part of the culture. The law is there for a good reason, and secrecy has an important role in military defense.

But before the Justice Department prosecutes Snowden, there are some other investigations that ought to happen.

https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2013/06/prosecuting_sno.html

Schneier believes Snowden will be remembered as a hero.

I don't think the situation bodes well for Snowden. The "hero" thing might not pan out. There will certainly not be a pardon (http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023011189)

Schneier also said that Snowden "broke the law," a fact that "isn't under debate," and that "the law is there for a good reason." He also acknowledged that the Justice Department will prosecute Snowden.

It's going to happen. He broke the law, and he will be prosecuted.

[dsc]

1. so did the bankers and rating agencies

funny they don't seem to be facing prosecution.

[Ichingcarpenter]

2. Bush and Cheney... and the rest of their gang

violated international law but hey we won't look back at that either.

[ProSense]

4. Actually,

"so did the bankers and rating agencies funny they don't seem to be facing prosecution."

...lots of people who break the law are prosecuted: http://www.stopfraud.gov/news-index.html

[Aerows]

9. You are a smart lady

I don't know how you continue to persist in ladling bullshit when you could be doing gravy.

[Skidmore]

45. Did you even click on that link.

It was pretty informative.

[Aerows]

46. I read what I was supposed to read

I didn't see Lloyd Blankfein, Jimmy Dimon or the real crooks listed.

[TheMadMonk]

85. And what is even MORE informative, is who isn't on that list.

Now I didn't peruse every single link on those lists, but just looking through the titles it seems for the most part, those prosecuted are essentially bottom feeders. Bent lawyers ripping off their clients, low to mid level managers ripping off their employers and of course the ubiquitous medicare fraudster.

What's missing is anyone from any of the banks with the authority to issue the sort of corporation wide instructions necessary for the banks to do what we DAMNED WELL KNOW THEY DID. AND ARE STILL DOING TODAY.

What's missing are the Generals who ordered secondary drone strikes on funerals, KNOWING WITH ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY that women and children would be killed. And who in Faluja (among other places) declared that a pair of descended testicles was sufficient grounds for a person to be an enemy combatant, not subject to the normal rules of warfare.

What's missing is damned near the entire Bush administration, for what we damned well know are war crimes and crimes against humanity.

[RB TexLa]

28. Oh, you are DU Land. Don't you know that no one who works for a bank as ever been charged with any

crime. You must be a republican trying to spread that kind of disinformation here. I foresee several internet petitions started against you!

[Aerows]

48. Racism

I see racism

[Cooley Hurd]

3. Not unless he evades capture...

...which I am cheering on. Sorry, Authoritarians.

[Life Long Dem]

5. All these other people did illegal things

So why should anyone else be charged with a crime? We all should be able to commit crimes and suffer no consequences because others have not been charged.

[Aerows]

6. Probably because he has

too many boxes in his garage. And they are all filled with the racism of anyone that recognizes that what he released was specifically designed to thwart the Obama Presidency. Did I get that right?

[L0oniX]

30. add: hater n/t

[Aerows]

34. I forgot that one

As a lifelong Democratic party member, I guess I should be loyal to a fault.

[cali]

7. you may be chomping at the bit for him to be extradited or even better from your pov

kidnapped and brought back to the U.S., but it looks like he stands a fairly solid chance of neither of those happening. Sucks for those panting to see him brought back and treated a la Bradley Manning.

here- for the link lover that you are:

Opposition to extraditing Edward Snowden builds in Hong Kong
http://www.latimes.com/news/world/worldnow/la-fg-wn-snowden-charges-hong-kong-extradition-20130622,0,7262538.story

Edward Snowden extradition attempts 'could take years'
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/22/edward-snowden-extradition-take-years

Edward Snowden Extradition Battle In Hong Kong Could Go On For Years
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/22/edward-snowden-extradition_n_3481956.html

Edward Snowden's espionage charges met in Hong Kong with silence
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57590576/edward-snowdens-espionage-charges-met-in-hong-kong-with-silence/

The Six Tricky Steps to Edward Snowden's Extradition, Explained
http://www.theatlanticwire.com/global/2013/06/edward-snowden-extradition-explained/66433/



How Edward Snowden could sidestep extradition
http://www.usatoday.com/story/cybertruth/2013/06/19/how-edward-snowden-could-sidestep-extradition/2434335/

[ProSense]

10. Well,

"you may be chomping at the bit for him to be extradited or even better from your pov kidnapped and brought back to the U.S."

...that's a weird straw man, must be that broken mind-reading machine you have.

I don't think like you. Such a thought would never enter my head. It explains a lot about you.

[Bluenorthwest]

15. As a pragmatist how you claim to think is moot. Your actions express your will, not your

editorials about how your or others think.

[ProSense]

17. LOL!

What?

[Aerows]

49. Oh my

I'm not surprised you are shocked by someone stating the truth point blank and without condiments.

[cali]

26. .....

worth posting twice.

would you like a link? Of course you would.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3068819

[Aerows]

50. Can I get a side of

word salad and blue links, please?

[TheMadMonk]

87. And your constant condemnation of Mr Snowden, as a traitor...

...for doing no more than reminding the world what it already bloody well knew, whilst simultaneously constantly repeating the mantra "The government investigated itself and found no wrongdoing" says one hell of a lot about you.

[The Link]

8. Wonder if he'll get the drone penalty.

[MotherPetrie]

11. Too bad he didn't form himself a HUGE bank and enrich himself by tanking the economy FIRST.

Then he would be too big for Holder to prosecute.

[MannyGoldstein]

12. Ergo, the Obama administration isn't spying on every American

Got it.

[ProSense]

16. Here's some information for you:

Here's How the NSA Decides Who It Can Spy On
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023060180

WaPo: New documents reveal parameters of NSA’s secret surveillance programs
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023058091

NYT: Documents Detail N.S.A. Surveillance Rules
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023058210

[MannyGoldstein]

19. Has the Obama admin not collected records of my phone calls?

And likely the phone calls themselves, and my emails?

If so, what was their probable cause?

[jonkyo]

13. Break the Law Security Clearence and What Keeps Me in Bondage

This is very interesting to say the least.

The law becomes broken by anyone who has sworn to secrecy, and compromise what they have sworn to in any way.

If he had left the post or position, would it have remain applicable? The law that is.

As far as the title of this reply goes:

I am finding that this is applicable in what I have encountered as a victim of this countries "EMF weapons testing and use" -Philips, Thorton and Brown, Sonoma University US Electromagnetic Weapons and Human Rights (2006)

This is how they (US military/ CIA Black Budget Operations) are getting away with using any number of citizens, businesses and libraries, daily, to keep me in a consistent or near consistent invasion of privacy, and harassment.

No one talks. This makes sense. They would break the law.

If you are wondering what this is about, it is about sustaining a human rights violation using the law mentioned in the main post above.

I can refer you to my blog.

I am unable to put photos of me on the internet. 3 cameras costing me 1400, one being digital, all stolen basically in 2005.

I have had embezzlement in the 10 thousands that is a felony, with possible wire fraud. That was a part of a primary goal of this, destruction through any means of my trust. The use of my trust and trustees (cousins) to corral me into controlled housing, and more, for this.

It is a crime most Americans could only think happening in a dictatorship.

Rental space for years was in a building that was a base of operations, I was forced to live in.

The law you mention is what kept and keeps this alive. For example, Coolidge West Side, the employees, the tenants, and the shops in the neighborhood, the shops,cafes bars I used throughout 4 years, in the entire city of Binghamton all know and were regularly informed for this, and acted.

It was a common unspoken reality.

Even the FBI is under this law, and cannot help, or assist me in my addressing crimes to local police.

http://americaruinsjohnkehoe.wordpress.com

This is democratic?

Not at all.

So, there you are. Lets stop talking about democracy, we are, in my citizenship, a stealth military state, thanks to the National Security Act,1947.

[Thinkingabout]

14. How many think a good defense for Snowden will be Bush and Cheney broke laws so it is okay if

Snowden breaks laws. WOW, this will be a changing in the defense team thinking now.

[noise]

22. People

are bringing up the double standard whereby powerful people abuse their high office to commit criminal acts and face no legal consequences. Instead they get book contracts and are quoted as credible sources by the media.

[Thinkingabout]

65. i never claimed Bush or Cheney has not committed crimes, I don't think Bush, Cheney or Snowden

As credible.

[Morning Dew]

18. Daniel Ellsberg was prosecuted too. n/m

[flamingdem]

20. The Six Tricky Steps to Edward Snowden's Extradition - The Atlantic describes outcomes

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/global/2013/06/edward-snowden-extradition-explained/66433/

This article has a good breakdown of possible outcomes.

This section is interesting - I wonder if we will be able to find out Snowden's status with China/HK if they keep him:

---

China can intervene. Given its unusual international status, the treaty with Hong Kong includes a unique stipulation, according to the paper.

Hong Kong also has an additional and unusual exception in its treaty that could provide a defense for Snowden, according to Douglas McNabb, a lawyer who specializes in international extradition cases. Hong Kong authorities can refuse the extradition of a suspect “if they believe it should be denied from a defense or foreign policy perspective,” McNabb said. “I have not seen that in any other treaty.”

If, for example, it turns out that Snowden is a Chinese spy, that might be considered a reason to deny extradition.

[flamingdem]

21. Adding to this: Hong Kong has asked for Chinese government intervention

so that could mean they are looking at this possibility -- China and Hong Kong could each use aspects of their laws to obscure the fact that Snowden did or will cooperate. They have to have the "deal" tight enough that Snowden doesn't embarrass them at a later time.

[Whisp]

23. As he should be. But I want to know whose patsy he was. n/t

[Lady Freedom Returns]

27. +1 n/t

[flamingdem]

31. This is my question as well. Depending on the outcome we'll be able to narrow

it down but I'm not sure we'll have a definitive answer.

It seems like he had too many things in place for this to have been done without "help".

This includes the protests in Hong Kong, that was very fast and convenient. Enthusiasm
for him was whipped up in Hong Kong and in China.

In a Chinese paper it said that two groups in Hong Kong were sponsoring the protests,
one more "independent" the other a front group for the Chinese Government party.

China is all over this situation. Why else would Snowden be spilling the beans specifically
about US spying in China / HK?

This one is a no brainer that his supporters refuse to deal with -- and all of this before a
critical meeting in mid-July between top US and Chinese representatives...

[Whisp]

38. lots of unanswered still.

the timing of when Greenwald and Snowden first spoke/met. It was before Snowden got into the NSA, supposedly. That is too big a coincidence/convenience right there. I doubt Greenwald orchestrated this and whether he was involved in it likely just another patsy like Snowden was that was hungry for what bait they were fed. Snowden - ideology. Greenwald - Ron Paul nirvana.

Also a lucky coincidence is the Rosen non scandal. Greenwald has cover now - o my dog! Obama going after another journalist! sky, fall. fall fast! As it is not against the law for a journalist (or whatever they are called these days) to lie (Fox had a suit against them for that a few years ago and the court ruled that it is not against the law for Fox to lie). Maybe Glenn can get cover with that law, and lie about something even as possibly harmful as this. After all, government needs drowning!

We won't hear the most of it, but we will know more in a while.

[flamingdem]

44. I did a search on Greenwald libertarian and found this DU thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/125179195

some good items and links

[Whisp]

47. thanks, missed that one. edit: !!

At a talk given the day after the 2010 election — one that was a disaster for Democrats — “progressive” writer and civil liberties lawyer Glenn Greenwald gave a talk at the University of Wisconsin, and expressed the hope that Democrats might suffer the same fate in 2012. Greenwald’s ... approach to politics that got members of the Young Americans for Liberty — a Paulite Libertarian group that co-sponsored the event — excited ...

[cali]

35. Why are you so convinced he was anyone's "patsy"?

judging from his years old internet posts, he's been concerned about government surveillance for quite a few years. Do you have even a Whisp of evidence suggesting that he was someone's "patsy"?

And no, his flight to HK is not evidence of his being a "patsy".

[flamingdem]

39. What about the secrets he gave to Hong Kong and China?

He didn't have to do that unless ______ fill in the blank

[cali]

41. could well be a tactic to avoid extradition. there you go.

[Aerows]

52. You can rule out Obama n/t

[rug]

24. Are you delighted?

[malaise]

25. I would argue that whoever hired him with that suspect resume

broke the law - how was he hired for a national security job?

[Aerows]

53. ^this^

[Recursion]

83. Was he? All we know is he worked for BAH

I still have no idea what he actually did and didn't have access to.

[L0oniX]

29. N.S.A. spokesman: “In the United States, you can’t spy on people.”

[Rex]

32. He ran off to the Chinese and gave them intel.

I don't care what party affiliation a person has, ONCE you do something like that you are branded as a traitor. That was the dumbest thing he could have done and he did it.

NOW we get to see how much the Chinese think he is worth.

[bobduca]

36. Them Chinese Newspaper in Hong Kong

Them's all in cahoots over there, them Chinese.. them, COMMIES!

[Floyd_Gondolli]

86. Why don't you try addressing his point

Rather than replying like an insufferable dolt. Or is there nothing beyond your talking points?

[bobduca]

88. "rather than replying like an insufferable dolt"

Last edited Sun Jun 23, 2013, 02:54 PM - Edit history (1)

Aww, you upset that your rendition fantasy is being denied?

[Hissyspit]

37. Provide evidence.

[pa28]

62. Dick "mushroom cloud" Cheney said so.

It must be true~!

[Rex]

68. So you think he was on Mars?

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-06-21/u-s-said-to-charge-snowden-over-nsa-surveillance-leaks.html

[ZombieHorde]

33. He didn't do anything unethical, but people will try to hurt him,

and they are likely to succeed.

[Hissyspit]

40. Yeah. Ellsberg was prosecuted, too.

[ProSense]

54. Snowden is not Ellsberg. n/t

[cali]

55. by which I take it you mean that Snowden is no Ellsberg.

Of course, Ellsberg has a very different opinion of Snowden- and the NSA- then you do. Let's just say he doesn't agree with just about anything you post.

[ProSense]

56. Well,

"Of course, Ellsberg has a very different opinion of Snowden- and the NSA- then you do."

...since that was my opinion, is there an unwritten rule that I have to agree with Ellberg in perpetuity?

[cali]

57. just noting how you're using Ellsberg in a

disingenuous and distasteful way.

[ProSense]

59. LOL!

[cali]

60. you asked.

[cali]

42. It's so

bizarre that you're ignoring all the information about how difficult it will be to extradite him.

not much encouragement on that front coming out of HK.

[former9thward]

43. They prosecuted Daniel Ellsberg also.

He was and his a hero.

[Zorra]

51. No surprise. If he was a war criminal or a bankster and was prosecuted...now, that would shock

me into seizures and possibly a coma.

[leveymg]

58. . . . in absentia.

Not in person, not unless he leaves Chinese territory.

[pa28]

61. Prosecuted for spying by revealing that we are all being spied on.

Neat.

[Tx4obama]

63. He is not being charged with spying. You must not have read the complaint filed with the Court.

18 USC 641 Theft of property and records

18 USC 793 Gathering, transmitting or losing defense information

18 USC 798 Disclosure of classified information

I do NOT see the word 'spying' there.

[mhatrw]

71. He exposed the federal government for its

18 USC 641 Theft of property and records

18 USC 793 Gathering, transmitting or losing personal and private information

18 USC 798 Non-disclosure of unconstitutional classified programs

[Art_from_Ark]

72. He is being charged with espionage,

which, by definition, is spying.

[MjolnirTime]

64. He might even have to sit naked in a prison cell. The horror!

[cali]

66. good to know which duers make light of, if not out and out support, torture.

[MjolnirTime]

82. I remember episodes of intense poutrage.

[magellan]

78. You're making light of torturing someone who wasn't even convicted of a crime yet?

Bush** was a prophet, apparently. He tapped straight into the reptilian brain of the ignorant fucks that inhabit this country, and they're still out there, waiting for the next "enemy" to abuse so they can feel powerful again.

The USA is DEAD.

[ljm2002]

67. Snowden broke the law?

Stop the presses! Who knew!! Sooo glad you are here to enlighten us on this fact. Because the rest of us hadn't figured that out yet.



But back to the issues brought to the forefront by Mr. Snowden. Do you really think we should not be having this discussion? Do you really believe that Snowden's actions were motivated by wanting to make Rand Paul look good? Do you really think that this massive sea of information has not been, and will not ever be misused by elements within our government? Or do you just not care?

[Ms. Toad]

69. I usually pay more attention to legal analysis

when it comes from a lawyer - or at least someone with a reputation as a legal scholar - not a cryptographer.

[mhatrw]

70. So did Harriet Tubman.

[cherokeeprogressive]

73. He wasn't CHARGED with anything. Hasn't Cali_Democrat set you straight about that?

Maybe he can clue you in about how the American justice system works. Obviously, you're at odds with how HE thinks it works. We can't have the two of you at odds; that wouldn't look good to the people you get your info from.

[Union Scribe]

74. You can throw him in the deepest hole on earth

but what you can't do is make this go away. Snowden isn't the only one who's going to be held accountable. Democrats better pay attention and get on the right side of history on this thing, or the party will sustain incalculable damage.

[cali]

75. Or not.

What will the U.S. threaten Russia with?

[Hissyspit]

76. I just came here to post those exact words!

Probably going to Iceland or Ecuador.

[cali]

77. I hope so. Though what the U.S. will do to either of those countries is a

scary thought.

[cali]

80. how are feeling about Venezuela?

So far Mr. Snowden has outwitted the U.S. Government in a major way.

I know, I know. According to you, he's got a shadowy network behind him.

[tularetom]

81. No, he won't but he'd better stay off of small airplanes

If they prosecute him, there will be a trial. He might actually testify and things that they'd rather not hear would come out. The administration doesn't want him anywhere near a witness stand.

Much more convenient if he were to just disappear. Of course that wouldn't look good either but it would eliminate the possibility that Snowden might open his piehole in court.

[Logical]

84. Prosense, do you think what Snowden did was a good thing? Yes or No? n-t