Zimmerman's broken and bloodied nose could be from...

[Bay Boy]

...his own gun. If Zimmerman was laying on his back he probably would have 'limp wristed' the shot. Meaning he didn't have his arms extended like you would in regular target practice. The recoil could have brought the gun back in his face and caused the broken/bloody nose. I also don't get why Z didn't seem to know that he hit Trayvon with his shot, it would have been near impossible to miss at that distance.

[Lugnut]

1. That's my theory.

I don't know anything about his gun or guns at all. If the gun kicked, as I know they can do, it could've hit him in the face.

[SQUEE]

10. I don't agree with this theory, but in fairness..

It could also explain why he had a failure to feed, the lack of strong hold and his nose contacting the slide could conceivably not allowing it to travel all the way, thereby not stripping the next round.

[Hoyt]

2. +1.

[MH1]

3. Could've done that even if he weren't on his back.

If he wasn't holding the gun correctly.

But the benefit of the "on his back" scenario is that it would also explain the cuts on the back of his head from being "slammed" into the concrete. Gun recoils, hits nose, knocks head back, head impacts concrete.

[truebluegreen]

4. Never thought of that.

It makes perfect sense, especially if Martin was found with skittles still in his hand (haven't been following this closely but I read that somewhere).

[moondust]

5. Also

the angle of the bullet trajectory is kind of suspicious. The torso of the person on top would have probably been at roughly a 30-45 degree angle to the ground, sort of like /. So if Z slips his gun out and fires, the bullet would tend to have an upward path, sort of like \. Put them together and you get /\. The autopsy showed the bullet went straight through TM's body from front to back without any angle, suggesting Z would have had to lift the gun into the air to chest height and point the barrel down somewhat. It's possible but doesn't seem likely. More plausible for a straight bullet trajectory would be two individuals standing face to face, or otherwise with torsos parallel, and one shoots the other.

[Bay Boy]

9. I think there is pretty good evidence that...

...Trayvon was on top of GZ at the time of the shooting. Angles change depending if Trayvon is sitting upright on GZ or leaning over him as would seem more likely.

[SQUEE]

12. the angle is still consistant with a snap shot from prone, and it did not exit,

it expanded and fragmented, with fragments being found in the pericardial sack

[moondust]

13. My understanding

is that it passed through with some fragments remaining in the pericardium.

[SQUEE]

14. Report states no exit.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/17/trayvon-martin-autopsy_n_1525763.html

[moondust]

17. And...

"Direction of projectile: Directly, front to back."

Doesn't really matter if the bullet exited or not. What's important here is the path of the bullet. I don't know if these reports typically describe the angle of trajectory upon entry or not.

[SQUEE]

20. Yes direct front to back.

I have not argued otherwise, but it is still consistent with a shot from prone. The angle of trajectory is an important part of the report, and yes thy are typically given.

[moondust]

26. Except that

a straight hip shot from prone would tend to travel through the stomach or pelvis of someone straddling because the muzzle is around waist level. If it did enter the chest it would do so at an upward angle made even more acute by the upward tilt of the top person's torso.

[qazplm]

30. exactly

unless we are to believe that he not only got to his gun, but raised it all the way to the kids chest while lying on his back, it makes it unlikely the shot happened while Zimmerman was lying down IMO, but I am not a ballistics expert, just going off the fact that for two people of roughly equal heights ones hip is not going to be anywhere near the other's chest and thus a bullet fired would most likely go through the liver or stomach or the vicinity of same if fired from the hip.

[customerserviceguy]

6. I don't recall the prosecution trying to go there

I suppose that it could come up in whatever cross-examination of the O'Mara expert witness that will try to say the opposite of what the prosecution's witnesses have said.

Also, a couple of things here: First, if the gun did strike him in the nose, wouldn't there be at least a bit of GZ's blood on it? Second, would it have been possible to figure out the position of the gun relative to GZ's body when it was fired, by some sort of analysis of patterns of gunpowder on his shirt? If so, why wasn't that done?

Seems to me that the question of where the gun was when it was fired would be of great importance in refuting GZ's story, or proving it. I wonder if O'Mara had the tests done?

[Little Star]

8. I think I heard that....

the defense was calling the #1 gun expert in their case. Lets hope the prosecution is better questioning and objecting than they have been in their own case. I'm not hopeful, sad to say.

[Generic Other]

19. His blood was found on the gun

Small traces.

[SQUEE]

21. Would be very important to know where.

If it were on the sight blade or top of slide, also if any skin where on the slide as well. If I recall the pictures show at the least an abrasion, maybe even a lesion on the bridge of his nose.

[brush]

22. There was only zimmerman's blood on the gun, not Martin's

And Martin's body did still have the Skittles in its hand. Hard to head bash and punch and smother someone while holding a bag of Skittles.

[Shankapotomus]

7. Gravity would have

assisted that, as well.

I wonder if it can be determined if such a nose injury is consistent with a gun recoil to the face.

[TorchTheWitch]

11. either it was recoil or Martin fell forward onto Zimmerman

after he was shot causing the gun to smack his Zimmerman's own face.

Last night I did a little experiment. I know very little about guns and have never even held one, so I wanted to know considering the positions they were in what Zimmerman's arm would have done either by recoil or by Martin falling forward onto Zimmerman after he was shot.

There would have been only enough room between Zimmerman's upper body and Martin's upper body for Zimmerman to have pointed the gun at his chest with his elbow resting against his own chest or a few inches away from his own chest. Had the gun either recoiled or Martin's body fallen forward on top of Zimmerman the elbow would bend and the hand holding the gun would have smacked his own face in the nose right where it appears that his nose was struck.

I don't believe Martin punched him at all (which actually disappoints me a bit since I would much prefer that before he died he got one good smack in). I don't believe that the gun could have possibly been in Zimmerman's pants in the holster for either one of them to get at it given Martin's leg being in the way. At some point though, Zimmerman did get his gun in between their two bodies while they were in that position. From the very little I know about guns in general just physics alone tells me that if Zimmerman's arm was that bent at the elbow he would have been barely able to control the recoil or control it at all, and from what I read about the type of gun that he owned it has a powerful recoil to begin with.

[brush]

23. Or they were both standing

The bullet entered Martin's torso straight on. Makes one wonder how that could happen in Martin was on top of him as zimmerman claims?

My feeling is that's another one of zimmy's lies. With a straight torso entry they had to have been both standing.

[TorchTheWitch]

31. except their standing at the time is contrary

to all of the witnesses.

Who says it was a straight on shot? The ME didn't testify to anything about the bullet's trajectory, and if Martin was leaning over that would have made a straight on shot even easier.

[Kablooie]

15. Maybe when he saw Trayvon his nose got out of joint.

That could explain it.

[Hoyt]

27. +1.

[Sancho]

16. I think it was a head butt...

I think GZ grabbed TM (might have been from behind). Maybe he had TM's arms pinned. TM swung his head and hit GZ in the nose, they both then slipped down on the wet grass and GZ hit his head on the sidewalk. When TM tried to get up off the ground and get away, GZ shot him.

That's why there's no blood on TM's hands, sleeves, or hoody. I doubt they even checked TM's hair or the top of the hoody for DNA. At least the technician didn't say he tested the hood - only checked the sleeves.

[SQUEE]

18. I agree they didn't examine Trayvon thoroughly.

After seeing the ME on the stand, I believe thy just did a perfunctory autopsy, not really going in depth as they had spoken to a detective and assumed it was going to be a "good shoot" scenario.
Remember he was just a black John Doe to them, and their own preconceived notions led them to blow off the situation, not knowing the whole world would be watching. This is one of the things that has bothered me since the facts of the investigation details started to come out.

[TorchTheWitch]

32. they did the exact same thing as any other autopsy

as the ME explained they aren't criminal investigators. The autopsy was just as thorough as any other of their autopsies.

[brush]

24. Best explanation I've heard so far. Thanks. nt

[Motown_Johnny]

25. He knew he hit Trayvon, it is just a lie.

There is no way someone who was just shot in the heart sat up, put up his hands and calmly said "OK, you got me".


I don't see why he would take the shot from right in front of his own face. The gun was up against Trayvon's shirt so Zimmerman's face would need to be up near Trayvon's chest somehow.

I can't picture it but I could easily be wrong.

[Thinkingabout]

28. Good thoughts and if Martin was on top of Z then after the shot Martin's head coukd have broken

The nose. Also because it was raining Z could have slipped down in the chase and caused the injuries to the back of the head. You could tell Z was getting his story together in the police video.

[shadowrider]

29. I don't think so

1) The recoil doesn't happen backwards, it happens upwards (muzzle goes up). Limp wristing would have resulted in an exaggerated movement upwards.
2) If you hold a semi-auto incorrectly, it can take the top of the thumb completely off (Which is why both thumbs are on the same side of the firearm when it's fired).
3) the recoil from the action would have been so violent an imprint would have been left on Zimmermans face if it didn't completely bust the skin wide open (which I think it would have).

Nice theory but I don't think the operation of a semi-auto lends itself to this scenario.

[LiberalFighter]

33. Was the bullet found? If so, where?

[Ruby the Liberal]

34. Yes - it was in Trayvon's body.

There was no exit wound. It was a hollowpoint and shattered in his heart.