My mother says Snowden is not a hero

[Harmony Blue]

but is not a criminal either. He is simply a messenger of the darkness looming on the horizon for the United States of America. She went on to say she grew up during the reign of the Greek military junta, and it is like deja vu all over again from her point of view with what is happening to the U.S. During the reign of the junta, Leftists were tortured, forced to flee, or join the underground resistance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_military_junta_of_1967%E2%80%931974

[DemocratSinceBirth]

1. Regardless of how you feel about Snowden hero isn't a word that should casually be tossed about.

.

[fujiyama]

14. Same with the word 'traitor'

These are loaded words and neither describe him very well.

[stevenleser]

28. Hero is more subjective. The words traitor and treason are less so. Generically, Traitor is simply

one who betrays another's trust. He certainly betrayed Booz Allen's trust. He certainly betrayed the NSA's trust.

Some believe he is trying to defend the Constitution. But there are ways to be a whistleblower that legally would mean you are not being a traitor to anyone. You understand that part, right? If he had gone to Senator Bernie Sanders, he would have gotten his issue addressed and then no one would have been able to remotely call him a traitor.

Treason, is a specific crime and Constitutionally limited in the US. Article III Section 3 defines treason as:

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.
-------------------------------------------------------
It would be hard to say that Snowden is guilty of treason unless you can legally define countries like Russia or China or whichever of the Nicaragua or Venezuela that he ends up in as "enemies". For a number of reasons, I am guessing any federal prosecutors would be loath to do so.

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. Yup...

Americans will learn...not a nice lesson

[backscatter712]

3. It took a lot of guts to do what he did. n/t

[AlinPA]

7. Or a lot of money from some interested customers.

[backscatter712]

8. The Snowden-bashers keep making that accusation. Got proof?

Didn't think so.

[AlinPA]

9. No. Why wouldn't he? You don't think his information about NSA processes would be valuable

to potential customers? Don't blame me for bashing. How do you know where I stand on this just based on a rational statement? Do you have proof that he didn't sell anything?

[Agschmid]

17. Do you have proof he did not?

Exactly.

[backscatter712]

18. Guilty until proven innocent?

Gee, who could have predicted that mindset from a certain group of DUers?

[former9thward]

19. Proving a negative?

Failed in the logic class didn't you? I can't prove that he didn't have eggs for breakfast today. Can you?

[Agschmid]

21. Sorry I missed logic class...

Did you miss reality class?

[former9thward]

22. Nope, that's why I don't throw around accusations with no evidence.

Others don't have that standard so you are with a big group.

[Agschmid]

25. Can you please copy and past my accusation?

All I said was we don't know... jack shit, about what the real truth of the situation is.

Right now all we know is one side of the story and its not even a direct message... So any accusations or assumptions are baseless.

[former9thward]

26. "Do you have proof he did not?"

That is a back handed accusation in my book. Especially since no one can ever prove a negative. I will agree that we probably only know 5 or 10% of the story at this point. But I will go off that and wait for the rest.

[Agschmid]

27. I don't feel I meant it as an accusation.

I just meant to express my feelings that we really know nothing about the situation.

I am also of the camp of "this is not new news, if you have been paying attention the whole time"... And NO that does not make it right or okay.

[PSPS]

11. LOL. That specific spin is new to me, but it's still just another #13 on the Hit Parade

NSA/Obama apologist's Hit Parade:

1. This is nothing new
2. I have nothing to hide
3. What are you, a freeper?
4. But Obama is better than Christie/Romney/Bush/Hitler
5. Greenwald/Flaherty/Gillum/Apuzzo/Braun is a hack
6. We have red light cameras, so this is no big deal
7. Corporations have my data anyway
8. At least Obama is trying
9. This is just the media trying to take Obama down
10. It's a misunderstanding/you are confused
11. You're a racist
12. Nobody cares about this anyway / "unfounded fears"
13. I don't like Snowden, therefore we must disregard all of this
14. Other countries do it

[AlinPA]

13. Apologist? For that statement? Pls see #9 above.

[backscatter712]

15. I keep telling you, you need to play Snowden-Bashing Bingo!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023154527

[chervilant]

4. "Underground Resistance..."

MAYBE, that's what we DUers are destined to be, especially if the uber wealthy oligarchs succeed.

[Vietnameravet]

5. I lived in a country where fascists took over

Philippine Islands 1972...i was there and saw what it was like..true fascism..and all this over the top rhetoric about how the US is a fascist country and Obama is threatening our freedoms. ..while Snowden is a hero...sounds like the TEA party only from the left...

The biggest threat and the most real threat is the increasing concentration of power and money in the hands of an elite oligarchy.. That and a successful terrorist attack//

[usGovOwesUs3Trillion]

6. Agreed, that's why I say PATRIOT

Greece and Italy had very hard times right after WWII for lefties (not to mention during)

[Thinkingabout]

10. Snowden stole files from the NSA by his own admission, makes him a criminal. He delivered the

Information to a foreign media source, makes him a criminal. He has been charged with espionage, makes him a criminal.

[former9thward]

20. None of that makes him a criminal.

He has not been convicted of anything. Of course with closed minds that stuff doesn't count. Daniel Ellsberg did all those things too (foreign governments read the NYT, it is not a secret paper). Do you stand with Nixon in his efforts to convict him?

[Thinkingabout]

23. You need to check the definition of crinimal, I did not say he was convicted. What has Nixon got to

Do with whether Snowden is convicted? No one should be allowed to steal from any company or person it is a crime. He has been charged with espionage, he was informed of this when he went to work at the NSA so he can not even use the lame duck excuse he did not know. Also ignorant of the law is not a defense.

[former9thward]

24. So you think Ellsberg should have been convicted?

He stole. Freely admitted it. You stand with Nixon.

[Thinkingabout]

29. What has Nixon got to do with Snowden and his crime of espionage? In the case of

Edward Snowden no one else conviction or no conviction has anything to do with Snowden's crime. Now if he would return to the US and turn states evidence against his puppet master then they would probably be able to work out a deal.

[former9thward]

31. The Snowden and Ellsberg cases are identical.

In both cases they stole classified information and became whistleblowers. In both cases authoritarians demanded their heads. Ellsberg got away with it because of support from the people. We will see what happens with Snowden.

[Thinkingabout]

32. Did Ellsberg deliver his information to a foreign news media? There might be more charges brought

Against him. With Snowden loose lips sinks ships. BTW, before you start throwing your talking points around about who is "authoritarian" you should know the proper facts about Snowden's crimes and actions, read the FISA Act for starters.

[former9thward]

33. Yes he did.

The New York Times is not a secret paper. It is read by people around the world including the intelligence services of other countries and other media. A distinction without a difference.

[Thinkingabout]

34. Just keep blowing your trumpet, maybe it sounds good to you.

[UTUSN]

12. She thinks he's a "Leftist"?!1

I'm anti-SNOWDEN/GREENWALD because of them personally, not on the grounds of the issues of privacy/surveillance, but the personal bits about him don't smack of his being a Lefty. And for the benefit of those name-calling "authoritarian!1" I'll have them know I got my certification from the Wizard himself that I am only THIRTEEN PERCENT "authoritarian"!1

********QUOTE******

Your result for The Altemeyer Authoritarian Test ...

[font size=5]13% Authoritarian![/font]

You scored 13% Authoritarian.

[font size=5]A Low Score[/font]

You are skeptial(sic) of or don’t trust the authorities.

On a jury you would take mitigating circumstances into account when determining a sentance(sic).

You are less aggressive.

You are less likley(sic) to join a military service.

You are less likley(sic) to care about “fitting in” with others.

You are less likley(sic) to belong to a fundamentalist religion.

***********UNQUOTE**********

[giftedgirl77]

30. +1, somehow looking at the person as a whole

& making a determination of their credibility in the entirety now makes ppl authoritarians or whatever else they can come up with.

I'm apparently 7% authoritarian btw

[UTUSN]

36. yip, not supposed to evaluate, just kneejerk along!1 nt

[Pale Blue Dot]

35. I'm sorry, but I missed the part of the OP where the grandmother said Snowden is a leftist.

She said that what's happening now in the US equates to what happened to leftists in Greece, but nowhere does she say that he's a leftist. Unless I'm missing something, in which case please point out what I am missing.

Otherwise, I can expect a retraction, right?

[Savannahmann]

16. Those of us who have studied history see troubling signs.

Those of us who have lived history tell us of the troubling signs. We see the militarization of police, and we are concerned. We see the Military Industrial expanding to the Intelligence Industrial, and we speak out about our concerns. We are dismissed as worriers, tools of the opposition, etc. etc. etc.

We learn with incontrovertible evidence that the USA is spying on it's own citizens, and the world. We see our concerns taking manifest, and we shout hey, someone look at this. What is going on?

We are told that it's nothing. Move along, and shut up.

Many of us are disturbed at how our own formerly liberal allies sound so much like the neo-con defenders of Bush and his abuses. We comment on that. We are told that this is nothing like Bush, and only RW Trolls would say such a terrible thing.

For the first time in my life, I wonder not if we'll lose the fight, but if the fight may already be lost. For some reason, the song Everybody knows by Leonard Cohen. I know he suffered from Depression most of his life. But that song keeps calling to me.

[Rex]

37. I agree with your mother.

Yet I am double fucked; because I also don't think the NSA should be looking in our colons to see if we had corn for dinner.

I think he is pretty stupid and the PTB that have him in their possession know that and are exploiting him on that point.