Valerie Plame Wilson and Joe Wilson on the NSA/Domestic Spying controversy

[Douglas Carpenter]

The NSA's metastasised intelligence-industrial complex is ripe for abuse

Where oversight and accountability have failed, Snowden's leaks have opened up a vital public debate on our rights and privacy

by Valerie Plame Wilson and Joe Wilson

guardian.co.uk, Sunday 23 June 2013 13.00 BST


Let's be absolutely clear about the news that the NSA collects massive amounts of information on US citizens – from emails, to telephone calls, to videos, under the Prism program and other Fisa court orders: this story has nothing to do with Edward Snowden. As interesting as his flight to Hong Kong might be, the pole-dancing girlfriend, and interviews from undisclosed locations, his fate is just a sideshow to the essential issues of national security versus constitutional guarantees of privacy, which his disclosures have surfaced in sharp relief.

Snowden will be hunted relentlessly and, when finally found, with glee, brought back to the US in handcuffs and severely punished. (If Private Bradley Manning's obscene conditions while incarcerated are any indication, it won't be pleasant for Snowden either, even while awaiting trial.) Snowden has already been the object of scorn and derision from the Washington establishment and mainstream media, but, once again, the focus is misplaced on the transiently shiny object. The relevant issue should be: what exactly is the US government doing in the people's name to "keep us safe" from terrorists?

We are now dealing with a vast intelligence-industrial complex that is largely unaccountable to its citizens. This alarming, unchecked growth of the intelligence sector and the increasingly heavy reliance on subcontractors to carry out core intelligence tasks – now estimated to account for approximately 60% of the intelligence budget – have intensified since the 9/11 attacks and what was, arguably, our regrettable over-reaction to them.

Today, the intelligence sector is so immense that no one person can manage, or even comprehend, its reach. When an operation in the field goes south, who would we prefer to try and correct the damage: a government employee whose loyalty belongs to his country (despite a modest salary), or the subcontractor who wants to ensure that his much fatter paycheck keeps coming? - Valerie Plame Wilson and Joe Wilson

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/23/nsa-intelligence-industrial-complex-abuse

[FirstLight]

1. damn skippy!

they should know... it's about the secret courts, the private contractors, etc...

[siligut]

21. It's about power

And the people who are drunk on it and don't want oversight.

[Benton D Struckcheon]

2. Correct. n/t

[Gregorian]

3. I think we're gonna need a bigger bus!

[99th_Monkey]

4. I salute Valarie Plame & Joe Wilson's bravery. They didn't have to do this.

Last edited Sun Jul 7, 2013, 12:13 AM - Edit history (1)

They could just quietly go on living a relatively safe and secure future,
rather than coming out like this, detailing what they know to be true
from their own personal shared experiences.

Hot damn. I just saw Cenk at TYT weigh in, with a devastating footage,
calling what Obama is doing for what it is "CRIMINAL".

... and now Plame & Wilson. Can't help wondering who
will be next, to "come out" for the US Constitution?

[Catherina]

12. +1000000 n/t

[MrMickeysMom]

18. Yep... Glad they did, too

Based on their perspective, it's nothing but good that they step out at this juncture.

The story of Snowden and distain for his actions have gotten incredible legs over what the hell's going on here. No... I think we needed to hear from them, and so glad they spoke up.

Note: Guardian... You can't even GET it in US mainstream media... there IS no US mainstream media... Even MSNBC's turning into an incredible vat of bland talk soup. NY Times? Uh, maybe... on every third Sunday buried somewhere...

[99th_Monkey]

19. I'm waiting for someone to suggest the Wilsons are really "secret Libertarians"

either that or they'll be accused of being "NSA double agents" playing along with Snowden's "psy-op
false flag", as Naomi Wolf has suggested.
http://www.truth-out.org/archive/item/88767:naomi-wolf-tea-parties-help-fight-fascism

Meanwhile, Counterpunch is left wondering:
"What basis does [Naomi Wolf] offer for her wild-eyed speculation that Snowden is perhaps 'not who
he purports to be'?"
http://www.counterpunch.org/2013/06/17/is-naomi-wolf-working-for-the-nsa/

Man it's getting stuffy in here, like all of Humankind's lofty dreams of genuine Liberty & democracy
are being rapidly sucked out of the atmosphere.

[Kurovski]

34. They have stacks of old National Geographics in their basement.

Doesn't that concern you at all?

[99th_Monkey]

36. NO-O!! You don't mean those ones with bare breasted women

like I used to secretly peek at whenever I could when I was in grade school?

Well then, the Plame/Wilson claims are clearly erroneous.

[Kurovski]

38. There now, that's a wise monkey!

See that? It's so easy to come to ones senses.

[99th_Monkey]

39. LOL. nt

[bananas]

67. Or that she's a "glorified secretary". nt

[Enthusiast]

30. MSNBC's turning into an incredible vat of bland talk soup.

Yes they are. There is no media. No real media.

[watoos]

44. NBC was controlled by GE, not hardly a liberal owner. They are now controlled by Comcast.

MSNBC has always conformed to talking about the required narrative of the day, only putting a liberal slant to it.
When people stray from the narrative on NBC, they end up like Phil Donahue, Keith Olbermann, Cenk Uygar, Dylan Ratigan, Ed Shultz.

It has been out there all along for all to see. When Donahue was railing against the Iraq war his corporate owners, GE and Microsoft stood to make a lot of money from the war, so yeah, Donahue had to go.

What msnbc has left is Rachel Maddow who is permitted to rail against social issues, which is what most of her shows are about.

Lawrence Odonnell got in trouble and was docked 1 day a week.

People need to realize that the MSM not only enables, but it is complicit, it controls the narrative.

The Huff Post has been taken over by AOL, a CPAC sponsor. It is taking over the Internet too.

Thank god for sites like DU.

[pangaia]

47. Right about HuffPO.

It also has become the online National Inquirer...
TERROR...
WATCH: man with no arms shoots self....
HUGE CRASH !!!....
JAW DROPPING PHOTOS !LOOK. LOOK !!!

[xtraxritical]

49. MSNBC - all Zimmerman all the time, all plane crash all day,

lock down raw all day. Ed Shultz to the sidelines. Who cares anymore.

[ctsnowman]

52. X 1000

[October]

59. True. Except that I'd say HuffPost was SOLD OUT by its namesake, Ariana

After everyone "contributed" to the rise of the HuffPost, for little or no PAY.

That's how I viewed it, anyway.

[Enthusiast]

29. There is no question that it is criminal.

That is why Cenk and other "liberal' spokespersons are relegated to outlets that have limited coverage.

[L0oniX]

58. +1

[East Coast Pirate]

5. I saw him speak in Portland Oregon.

They're both great.

[cantbeserious]

6. Thank You For Sharing

eom

[20score]

7. Kick

[KittyWampus]

8. It's about the money. Our taxes. Getting sucked into a void by untold billions. Every year.

[silvershadow]

9. It's always about the money. nt

[rhett o rick]

23. I agree with you. nm

[Segami]

10. K&R Thanks!

[davidpdx]

11. I only partially agree with them

I do think the intelligence gathering needs to be reigned in, that the subcontracting needs to be stopped, that the issue of background checks (who does them and how accurate they are) is investigated (something they didn't mention). I disagree about it not being about Snowden. He has a role in this, but it should only be about what he did not his personal life. I also disagree that he's going to be hunted down and tortured or killed like many people are insinuating. He already has plenty of offers of asylum, it's just a matter of him getting to one of those countries.

The question now is what happens next in terms of the intelligence gathering, the use of subcontractors, and how background checks are done? Also what happens to be information Snowden has once he reaches whichever country he chooses?

[Catherina]

13. If Valerie and Joe Wilson are warning people this clearly, WAKE UP! NOW! n/t

[Enthusiast]

31. Absolutely.

We must make the people aware that the nation is in grave danger.

[Douglas Carpenter]

65. there would be few people more aware of th workings af the intelligence services

and few people more cautious about making any strong claims.

[JDPriestly]

14. Excellent article.

[The Straight Story]

15. Time to dig up some dirt on them, then the facts won't actually exist anymore

Or something like that. Have to go back and read that playbook on how if a person is not perfect nothing that say is real....

[Douglas Carpenter]

20. that I have already seen. According to one poster here on DU - they were supporters of the Iraq War

and for that reason - they never liked Obama

[Kurovski]

35. Racists, I bet.

And they don't like Ellen, either.

[Enthusiast]

32. I'm sure they will fabricate something if the fact don't fit their needs...nt

[DFW]

40. You want some "dirt?"

Here you go: Joe was a life-long Republican. May even still be (I didn't ask last time I saw him). Valerie never said (to me, anyway) if she has a party affiliation.

So what? The things that happened to them still happened, and at the hands of a Republican administration, and they both know that only too well. They are both extremely well-spoken, and I'm glad they are still speaking out publicly. As was pointed out earlier, they could have just holed up in their little community in New Mexico and withdrawn completely.

[Douglas Carpenter]

41. yes he was and was close to George Herbert Walker Bush - he was recognized by him as a hero

during his days as the last Acting Ambassador to Iraq prior to the 1991 War.

As acting ambassador to Iraq in the run-up to the first Gulf War, he was the last US diplomat to meet with Saddam Hussein, in 1991.

He very publicly defied the Iraqi strongman by giving refuge to more than 100 US citizens at the embassy and in the homes of US diplomats - at a time when Saddam Hussein was threatening to execute anyone who harboured foreigners.

He then addressed journalists wearing a hangman's noose instead of a necktie.

He later told the Washington Post newspaper that the message to Saddam Hussein was: "If you want to execute me, I'll bring my own [expletive] rope."


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3156166.stm

[ProSense]

16. One thing is certain,

this is no longer true: "this story has nothing to do with Edward Snowden"

Check the asylum articles and the pieces declaring him a whistleblower or not.

The commentary was written almost two weeks ago, and the story has taken on a decidedly Snowden angle since then. Between Assange's appearance on a Sunday show, the Snowden messages, the asylum quest and the Bolivian President's plane incident, Snowden is another part of the story.

There was another posts here a couple of weeks ago, quoting Plame (http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023049249)

"I don't think a hero, I don't condone what he did. At the same time he's certainly not a traitor as he was called by Dick Cheney," Plame told HuffPost Live host Mike Sacks. "In a way, we as U.S. citizens owe Edward Snowden a thank you for having brought this issue to the forefront and so that we can begin to have a serious and genuine conversation about these issues."

I posted this is response:

I have no problem with her quote. I don't think he's a hero. He sparked a debate, but he still committed a crime. One thing is certain, the story is still unfolding.

She says: "Perhaps he could have done it in a different way, but that's not the conversation we should be having."

Well, fleeing the country and his actions in Hong Kong is why he became the story.

Oh, and I definitely agree with her comments on Cheney.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023049249#post11

As for the OP commentary, I agree that the program has grown into something that can be abused and that requires a lot more oversight and transparency.

[AAO]

17. Screwn again...

[baldguy]

22. Was this before or after Snowden said that he'd expose the identities of covert intelligence agents

Like Valerie Plame to the world?

[Mojorabbit]

26. I read the opposite.

Do you have some legitimate links/ I'd love to read them. I am looking at all angles.

[pnwmom]

24. They wrote this BEFORE Snowden had the interview with the Chinese newspaper

in which he discussed his plan of sharing his thousands of documents with the foreign press all over the world, and letting them decide what was safe to publish or not.

Plame won't support Snowden if he starts releasing the names of the American spies that he claims to have lists of, people just like Plame herself.

[Mojorabbit]

27. Has he released any names? Thanks! nt

[pnwmom]

28. Not that I'm aware of. He's being purposely vague about what he'll be releasing,

although he has stated that he took thousands of documents and that he had access to lists of US CIA personnel around the world.

[Kolesar]

54. Valerie Plame Wilson hasn't posted anything on Facebook since she posted that commentary on 6-24

She may have misgivings. There is no way to tell.

[Warren Stupidity]

51. And here we go. The spin is in.

[Doctor_J]

64. yeah, like maybe now they are FOR secret government spying

I love the smell of desperation in the evening.

[WillyT]

25. K & R !!!

[Douglas Carpenter]

33. knr

[Uncle Joe]

37. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, Douglas Carpenter.

[Douglas Carpenter]

71. sure thing

[Nanjing to Seoul]

42. Damn them. They are just racist, Ron Paul lovers anyway. Where is the bus I can throw them under?

[MNBrewer]

43. Oh the VITRIOL!!! Good thing the BOG is a safe, swampy refuge from such Obama hate!

[malaise]

45. Excellent

The Guardian remains one of the most important newspapers on the planet thanks to its ownership structure.

[cali]

46. under the bus with them! strike them from the democratic list of heroes pronto!

[HooptieWagon]

48. We're gonna need a bigger bus...

[Warren Stupidity]

50. There is no longer a bus big enough to accomodate all the people who need to be thrown

under it.

[iamthebandfanman]

53. dupe

[ReRe]

55. K&R

[School Teacher]

56. Valerie and Joe Wilson Have Integrity

Hey, stop the dissing. Have you read Joe Wilson's book about his life story and including details of how he exposed the Yellow Cake
Uranium lies of the Bush Administration. These people have standards that value truth and they paid a price for it. So what if Joe Wilson was a republican. It is INTEGRITY that we value here, Snowden's and the Wilson's. I am grateful to Valerie and Joe for their service to our country. We need more people like them in government instead of those lying criminals. I hope they are reading this post. Thank you!

[L0oniX]

57. Bunny stomper bait.

[Douglas Carpenter]

72. I guess that's what it is

[Douglas Carpenter]

60. another kick

[Douglas Carpenter]

61. /

[blkmusclmachine]

62. .

.

[indepat]

63. Big brother is seemingly keeping itself safe from the prying eyes of its citizenry

seemingly by eviscerating the Constitution it has sworn to protect and defend.

[NorthCarolina]

66. So does this mean the Wilson's are secret Libertairans who love Rand Paul

and hate Social Security?

[Doctor_J]

68. not sure about SS

but I DO know this makes them racists who didn't get a pony and don't understand 13D chess.

[NorthCarolina]

69. From what I can gather from posts, the Wilson's, by virtue of their modicum of support

for Snowden's actions MUST unequivocally HATE Social Security.

I think I have this thought process down now and it is all very simple. It is all based on associations. For instance, say that once upon a time you had agreed with something Ron Paul said... like when he said he was against the illegal wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, perhaps you might have AGREED with him.

Well, if you did, then because Ron Paul is also anti-Social Security (more or less), your having agreed with him on other issues unmistakeably, emphaticall, and undeniably means that you also hate Social Security.

It's all very simple really.

[idwiyo]

70. K&R

[Douglas Carpenter]

73. another kick

[Douglas Carpenter]

74. another kick