Did the defense prove that Trayvon was on top of ZImmerman...

[Bay Boy]

...when the shot was fired? They said that the shirt wasn't in contact with the skin when the shot was fired and the only that could happen is if Trayvon was leaning over Zimmerman at the time. Do you agree with that? And does it prove anything else one way or another?

[madokie]

1. I'm more inclined to believe that the kid, CHILD, was standing

when the murderer killed him.

[Bay Boy]

2. But if the testimony is to be believed...

...that wouldn't make sense.

[Blackford]

12. Look at the picture of the dead Trayvon Martin

That hoodie was at least two, maybe three sizes too large for him.

That means at a minimum while standing, it would have been two inches from his skin.

[dkf]

17. Two inches away from the skin because the clothes are too big?

What are you wearing? A tent?

[Blackford]

19. My own one size large hoodie is two inches away from the skin at my heart when standing up.

A single size too large.

The defense ME testimony is inconclusive and inconsistent with the statements of Zimmerman and the physical evidence/

[dkf]

33. Full Iced tea in pocket pulling it down.

Is it still 2 inches away?

[rl6214]

36. If you are standing straight up the shirt hangs straight down

Pressing against the chest and then down over the stomach. If you are bending over, it will hang away from your chest and stomach.

I don't know of any clothing that will hang away from the body when standing straight up.

[Honeycombe8]

39. If you're skinny and the shirt baggy, it will. Not that I have much personal experience with that.

I have some baggy t-shirts, though, that do not touch my stomach when I'm standing.

[pintobean]

41. That's absolutely amazing.

I've never owned clothing that defies gravity.

[brush]

8. Agreed 100%

Last edited Fri Jul 12, 2013, 10:01 PM - Edit history (1)

There was a horrible photo on Gawker today of Trayvon's body, just horrible. The body was not yet covered and you could see his face, the face of a young teen with it's eyes open, certainly not the threatening thug monster zimmerman's camp portrayed him as. He also had on unmarked khaki pants and sneakers. There were no grass stains or tears or anything on the pants, nothing. He couldn't not have been straddling zimmerman in wet grass and not get anything on his light-colored pants. Nothing on the sneakers either.

The coward of a killer most likely shot him while he was standing.

It's just a horrible photo to see but all these ardent supporters of zimmerman need to see what that murderer did. He was just a kid walking home and was shot by the real thug.

[madokie]

10. Yes the murderer in this case was the THUG

[femmocrat]

3. Can't recall, but Lisa Bloom on MSNBC kept bringing it up.

She kept mentioning the thickness of the material and that sweatshirts blouse away from the body. Just add it to the confusion.

[anomiep]

4. I don't think they said the only way.

I think what they had their gunshot expert testify to is that it was consistent with that.

In a legal sense, the issue is, it's not on the defense to prove it happened that way - it's on the prosecution to show it didn't.

That was one of the areas where I was watching the trial just kind of like "umm ... the prosecution is doing nothing here to show it couldn't have happened how the defense said it did ... they're acting more like a defense, saying it could have happened this way or that ... wtf?"

I don't think it's been proven that it happened in any particular way.

[GiaGiovanni]

6. The prosecution dropped the ball here and in other places

They also didn't prepare their witnesses very well.

[Hoyt]

22. Then again, whether he was standing, crawling on Zman, sitting, doesn't really matter.

One can have all kinds of doubt as to how Zimmerman shot the unarmed kid. The question is did Zimmerman murder him, not exactly how? The defense harped on crap like that because there is no doubt who killed who.

[GiaGiovanni]

5. Dr. Vincent Di Maio

From CBS NEWS

(CBS/AP) SANFORD, Fla. -- A nationally renowned gunshot wound expert testified Tuesday that Trayvon Martin's gunshot wound was consistent with accused murderer George Zimmerman's story that the teen was on top of him and leaning over when he was shot.

Taking the stand for the defense, Dr. Vincent Di Maio, a forensic pathologist, said that Martin's gunshot wound was consistent with the gun's muzzle being against his clothing, which would have been two to four inches away from his body when he was shot.

"If you lean over someone, you notice the clothing tends to fall away from the chest," Di Maio said. "If instead you're lying on your back and someone shoots you, the clothing is going to be against your chest."...

[SaveAmerica]

55. What about standing up, Dr. Di Maio?

If Trayvon remained standing, felt he was being threatened and then leaned forward to prepare for anything, his shirt and hoodie would be several inches away from his body.

[PoliticAverse]

7. A better question is 'did the defense generate resonable doubt of the prosecution's claims' ? n/t

[Blackford]

14. Only if you believe Goerge Zimmerman's statements.

If, however, you discount Zimmerman's statements due to the numerous lies he told and the prosecution proved were lies, the physical evidence speaks for itself and he should be convicted of Murder 2.

It all comes down to how much stock they place in George Zimmerman's statements.

[hack89]

45. If you believe at least one of the prosecution's witnesses

then TM was on top.

[YarnAddict]

9. The defense doresn't have to prove anything

they just have to introduce reasonable doubt. I think the world-renowned doctor who testified managed to convince me that Trayvon was on top. He had the experience and training to make an informed opinion about that.

Which is not to say I think GZ was justified in shooting. A reasonable person would not have been in fear for his life, which is the standard for self-defence.

[Bay Boy]

11. I get what you're saying...

...but if a juror is convinced that Trayvon was on top it's pretty easy to take that to mean Zimmerman was losing a fight (one he instigated) and was in fear for his life.

[YarnAddict]

15. yes.

And I believe that is what happened. Z was getting his butt kicked, and even though no reasonable person would have been in fear for his life, I can believe that Z is not a reasonable person. I can't say for sure what he was thinking, but I believe it is possible he thought he might die. Doesn't change the fact that he instigated the confrontation, he escalated it, and a young man is dead as a result.

[dkf]

20. You've just fulfilled justifiable death and acquitted him.

Here are the jury instructions...

http://www.flcourts18.org/PDF/Press_Releases/Zimmerman_Final_Jury_Instructions.pdf

[mzmolly]

23. His fear had to be reasonable.

Eom.

[mzmolly]

21. Where were Zs hands?

[NoOneMan]

37. In MMA, being on your back isn't exactly the equivalent of losing or fearing for your life

You can actually fuck people up bad when you are on your back with various locks and chokes, and defend quite well.

In any case, this fear thing is so absolutely subjective. Hell, a mentally disturbed schizophrenic serial killer can claim fear of death (rightly), but they aren't an average person. Zimmerman clearly isn't either. I care fuck all what he felt down there. He is a danger to society to have created that situation and to have (if he did fear) freaked out to the point of killing someone.

[displacedtexan]

18. You mean the guy who testified on behalf of Drew Peterson?

"Consistent with" is a term used to mean "Meh, I suppose it's possible."

[Nevernose]

27. Assume for a moment that Dr. DiMaio hadn't become a joke

And that his opinion was valid and reasonable, that his current career did not primarily consist of testifying on behalf of murderers, and that everything he said was true. It goes against everything that the medical professionals who actually examined Zimmerman testified to, but lets assume he and he alone was telling the truth, and that the police, neighbors, George's personal doctor and a medical examiner with nothing to gain for testifying were all lying or incorrect.

If he was telling the truth, then he proved that George Zimmerman is a liar. George told the police and everyone else that he was in fear for his life because Trayvon bashed his head into the ground 25 or 30 times. DiMaio testified that Zimmerman had had his head bashed at least once, maybe as many as five times. Not 30, but five.

So let me rewrite one of my earlier sentences:

He said that he was in fear for his life because his head had been bashed into the concrete 25 or 30 times.

If the second part of Zimmerman's story is a lie, then why should anyone believe that the first part of his story is the truth?

[Hoyt]

13. Irrelevant. Zimmerman started the whole thing and shot him without justification.

[mzmolly]

16. They could have been side by side.

No, they didn't prove a position. Their own expert said there were other possibilities. Trayvon may have been getting up off of Zimmercop - for example.

[Nevernose]

24. A professional hack made that claim

And everything he said is highly suspect. He did have a good career at one point, but has spent the last decade testilying for murderers. This is the guy who was hired on behalf of luminaries such as Drew Peterson and Phil Spector, and everything he says should be highly suspect because of that.

[cherokeeprogressive]

25. The didn't have to. All they needed to do was prove he MIGHT have been. n/t

[NoOneMan]

29. He might of been levitating David Blaine style too

[cherokeeprogressive]

32. I don't understand your point... are you arguing that David Blaine might have been involved?

Which, I might add... only serves to bolster "reasonable doubt". You DO understand the concept of "REASONABLE DOUBT", right?

[NoOneMan]

34. Oh, Im just saying, you can make anything up

It doesn't make it "reasonable". Especially when you are full of shit.

But after all, it was God's plan that this fucken punk did not get away. If you buy that, any fabrication appears "reasonable".

[Perez Pradosky]

35. none of us believe beyond reasonable doubt that such levitation occurred

Thats what makes your joke irrelevant.

[NoOneMan]

38. Its as reasonable as his bullshit story of the 4 armed, super-human 17 year old rabid Martin

[RandiFan1290]

44. Sup?

[spin]

30. Exactly. The defense doesn't have to prove anything. If the defense creates reasonable doubt ...

in the mind of the jurors then the jurors should not convict Zimmerman.

If so, it is quite possible that a guilty person will walk free but that is the way our legal system was designed.

[Just Saying]

26. Doesn't prove

Who started the fight, whether or not Trayvon was trying to get away or whether a reasonable person would fear great bodily harm.

[Kingofalldems]

28. Do you Zimmerman people think maybe Trayvon had a right

to defend himself? He certainly wasn't following your pal. Does carrying a concealed weapon automatically give one authority in your world? Is it" Oh I have a CC permit, now I'm an official police boy." ?

[onenote]

47. I'm not a "Zimmerman person"

and I would be pleased as hell if the jury came back with a guilty verdict based on their conclusion that, beyond any reasonable doubt, a reasonable person in Zimmerman's position, taking into account all of the circumstances, would not have been in fear of great bodily harm or death. I should add however that a jury could just as easily reach the opposite conclusion.

I am, however, a "law" person, and Trayvon only would have had the right to defend himself if (a) being followed by Zimmerman was unlawful, which it was not; or (b) Zimmerman attacked him physically first, which may or may not have been the case. Without one of those two circumstances, Martin was obligated to "retreat" rather than "defend" himself. I should add, however, if Martin felt that retreating was not possible (and that may have been the case) then he could defend himself assuming that a reasonable person, under the circumstances, would have feared for his physical well-being from Zimmerman's actions.

[Quixote1818]

31. Yes and here is actual video

[B Calm]

40. If Zimmerman's gun was in the small of his back

and Trayvon had Zimmerman pinned to the ground, there's no way Zimmerman could have reached for his gun. Zimmerman had to be on top!

[justiceischeap]

42. Or had to have his gun out prior to the scuffle.

I suspect he had his gun out and that is why Trayvon was fighting for his life.

[Grammy23]

48. My thought exactly. Trayvon was already aware that he was being followed.

There was testimony to that from his friend on the phone and I believe that is accurate and true.

Now take into account that many times young people think of themselves as "bullet proof". They take chances and risks when other behavior would serve them better.

So suppose Trayvon decided to "check out for sure" if the guy was following him. He may have even been angry or pissed off that this "creepy ass cracker" was following him when he had done nothing wrong.

Now, suppose when Zimmerman got out of his truck, he took out his gun since he thought the "suspect" was still in the area. He had no intention of letting the A**hole get away this time. He had even implied that on the 911 calls.

He confronts Trayvon who at this point sees the gun. He reacts to a real threat and punches Zimmerman and a struggle takes place where they end up on the ground, maybe even rolling around a bit, with Zimmerman on top for a while and then Trayvon manages to get on top.

Zimmerman still has the upper hand because he has his gun. Even if Trayvon attempts to move back away, Zimmerman uses the gun to stop Trayvon. Trayvon is stunned briefly from the shot, Zimmerman moves away and Trayvon falls forward, face down and dies within a matter of minutes as the blood fills his lungs and his heart is mortally damaged.

Zimmerman has to concoct a story to cover the fact that he had the gun out, so tells authorities that the gun was holstered and he only took it out once he was punched. His explanation for that scenario, by the way, makes NO sense to me, since if Trayvon was straddled over him and then up near his armpits (as explained by Zimmerman), how did Zimmerman reach around Trayvon's leg and get the gun out of the holster which was on his right hip toward his back? And how did Trayvon go for the gun with his non-dominant hand in a position that would have been exceptionally awkward?

This is how I could envision this event happening but it was never presented that way by the Prosecution. I know there probably was no evidence (that I know of) that would support it but then Zimmerman's account is mainly supported by what Zimmerman said happened. So can we trust him since he was shown to be a liar on several points and all the changes he made were self-serving and designed to justify what he did so that it comported with the law?

This law---- "stand your ground"----or basic "self defense"---was something Zimmerman knew about very well, a fact verified by his teacher from one of his classes. A class he passed with an "A". So much for him being a dumb bunny. So naturally, after he had a chance to rethink his actions, he HAD to come up with his version of what happened and in no way could he admit he had the gun out of the holster when he met up with Trayvon. And therefore, he was justified in his actions. At least in his mind....

[spanone]

43. who cares? zimmerman had the gun and shot a kid walking home from a convenient store.

[Amaya]

46. My theory is that Zimmerman was on top

Trayvon sceamed and punched Zimmerman ... Zimmerman shot trayvon.

[mountain grammy]

49. No.

[avebury]

50. I do not think that it really matters.

I absolutely believe that GZ had his gun out in order to try to force TM to stay until the police arrived. I think that TM, as GZ got closer saw the gun and made an effort to get away which led to the scuffle. GZ panicked and shot TM. I do not for one minute ever think that GZ's life was in danger. Once TM was shot, despite claiming that he didn't even know he hit TM, GZ holstered the gun, asked home owners to help him secure TM, positioned TM's arms like the police would, stood there and watched TM die.

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED - here is "one of those "***" that didn't get away.

No effort to provide assistance to TM (What if the shot had not been fatal? GZ let him die.)

Talk about total callous disregard for life!

[Grammy23]

52. Agree with you. The gun was out when they met up.

Trayvon reacted to seeing the gun by punching Zimmerman because he was genuinely afraid for HIS life at this point. Remember, he had already become aware that someone was following him and he had NO idea what the person was up to. Maybe he thought he was about to be robbed? Or kidnapped? Assaulted? Or just profiled as a black kid out after dark? Trayvon was not raised in a vacuum. He was fully aware of his life experience if he was like any other black youth raised in the USA--- he had to be aware that anyone fitting that description is viewed as a "suspect". So he was suspicious of why Zimmerman was following him when he knew he had done NOTHING wrong. And, as anyone who has had teenage boys, or WAS a teenage boy knows....sometimes they do illogical things. They confront and walk INTO danger when the best course would have been for him to run for home as fast as he could. He paid dearly for this mistake in judgment but does not mean he deserved to die for that.

Zimmerman started the situation in the first place, escalated it, confronted a young kid who probably reacted like kids do, which in Zimmerman's mind "forced him" to use his weapon which almost certainly had to be out of the holster when the two met at the T. What happened after that is muddy, but the end result is not. Trayvon is dead and Zimmerman is left to explain what he did and why. In his efforts to justify his actions, he has changed his story to lean in his favor. Lots of room for speculation but common sense is allowed in the absence of concrete evidence. What makes sense?

[ChiciB1]

51. NOOOOOO, If I Was On The Jury

I think that logically you could conclude that at ONE time or ANOTHER he COULD have been on top. My assumption would be that there was a struggle and NOT UNTIL neighbors heard any cries for help, did anyone pay any attention. It was at that time they actually saw/perceived that it was very, very serious.

And to me, that should be something the jury takes under consideration. My fervent hope is that this piece if information won't be THE deciding factor as to guilt. There is so much more to consider!!

[rucky]

53. It's a red herring

and the least important point in the whole case.

[Nine]

54. That's just stupid.

You don't have to be on all fours with your torso horizontal for your clothing to fall slightly away from you. Someone said one of Martin's hoodie strings was pulled longer than the other. Martin could have been pulling away from Zimmerman as Zimmerman was grabbing Martin's clothing. Martin could have leaning forward at a very slight angle (try it yourself and see how small an angle you need for your shirt to leave your chest), maybe even to try to defend himself against the gun Zimmerman had just pulled out for no reason. He could have been moving quickly back so that his shirt needed a fraction of a second to catch up with him. Zimmerman could have been pushing Martin down at that moment. There are many, many reasons why a shirt might be a couple inches away from the skin other than that Martin was on top of Zimmerman "grounding and pounding" with his (Martin's) nonexistent MMA training.

[bushisanidiot]

56. Since it was trayvon screaming, he was likely holding his hands out in front of him

When he saw z pointing the gun at him.

If you are standing straight up with hands at your side, maybe no sagging of hoodie..

If you are standing but slouched with hands at your side, some sagging of hoodie.

If you are standing with arms out in front, trying to protect your face, bent over because you are backing up, definite sagging of hoodie.

If you are trying to turn and run from someone, your arms arent down at your sides, they are at least raised to the point that your hoodie isnt laying flat against your body.

Trayvon straddling zimmerman i just one of many scenarios where a hoodie would sag away from trayvons body. But it is not the likely scenario according to the rest of the DNA evidence.

The fact that none of zs DNA was found underneath trayvons nails, or anywhere else on trayvons body is damning to zs stories. Also, no injures on trayvons hands indicate the injuries to zimmerman could not have been received from contact with trayvon.

Z had a friend show up before police got there. They didnt call the police. Did anyone look at zs friends knuckles?