A sudden passion for preserving government secrets

[Enrique]

I have seen issues that people care passionately about, the economy, abortion, foreign policy, etc.

But keeping government secrets?

I wonder is it because the people themselves care so much about this, or is because they like Obama and he cares so much about it? And they loathe Snowden so passionately because they see Obama going at him so hard?

Makes me think of the Anglo-Saxon oath of fealty (hat tip Civ IV)

"I will to my lord be true and faithful, and love all which he loves and shun all which he shuns."

[xchrom]

1. du rec.

[idwiyo]

2. +1

[byeya]

3. + + - Touch that forelock!

[struggle4progress]

4. Well, not quite. Lots of us believe that too much material is classified, and lots of us believe

that some material is probably classified merely to help cover up malfeasance

Lots of us also do not want every possible government record to be a public record. I don't want hackers putting my income tax returns online for everyone else to look at, for example, and I certainly don't want the protocols and codes for US nuclear weapons use to be widely publicized. Some records, such as most US diplomatic communications, become available to the public within a certain time-frame, though they are not usually available as soon as they are written -- for reasons recognized by every country in the world that respects the inviolability of the diplomatic pouch

Most Americans respect both whistle-blowing and the rule of law

There is no clean simple reconciliation of these conflicting ideals. Under the rule of law, a Private First Class in the Army (say) cannot be allowed to determine for himself that 750 000 documents, which he has agreed not to reveal, should be revealed to the world at large, just because he has come to some ideological conclusion such as "information must be free". Similarly, under the rule of law, people must not be allowed to seek jobs, providing access to classified information, with the intent of copying that information for worldwide release or with the intent of threatening to release some information in order to forestall some other prosecution

I expect many people will agree that there should be, under certain circumstances, the possibility of defending against such a prosecution through the claim that violations of the law are justified on the grounds of legitimate public interest, or through the claim that the disclosure was necessary to forestall more serious crimes. John Kiriakou, for example, seems to me to have deserved the opportunity for such a defense. But such a defense is not always warranted: it's not immediately clear to me that Mr Snowden's disclosure of alleged US hacking to Chinese university computers, possibly connected to nuclear weapons development, really served a legitimate public interest, or that the disclosure was somehow likely to forestall serious crimes

[woo me with science]

6. Oh, puh-leeze.

If this were Bush, you would be screaming bloody murder.

In fact, many of you did.

Governments that create surveillance infrastructures also create propaganda infrastructures.

[struggle4progress]

7. No: if some dumbass had pulled Manning's or Snowden's stunts in the Bush era, I wouldn't

have hit the streets lauding the dumbass as a hero

[Hydra]

15. So you were fine with the spying, rapes, torture, murders, and genocide

Of the Bush Admin? Did you have a problem finding out that Bush allowed 9/11 to happen?

If you're ok with all of that, just say so and ditch your name here. A struggle for progress starts with truth, and nobody in power is going to give it to us easily.

[struggle4progress]

16. Huh?

[Hydra]

17. You just said you would have rejected the whistleblowing during the Bush Admin

We found out from whistleblowers that Bush ignored evidence of the 9/11 attack coming, torture and rape by the military, domestic spying and war crimes in places like Falluja.

Were you arguing against those "leaks" at the time? Did you not want to know that they were doing these things?

[struggle4progress]

18. You need to practice your reading skills

[Hydra]

19. Yeah, I reread all of it

And basically, you aren't happy with leakers when they leak things you don't approve of them leaking.

And you want them to sort it out in court, when they can't have any rational belief that they will have any protections.

Sorry, welcome to the new world. We're going to find out things like HB Gary in mass leaks/hacks because we won't find out otherwise.

The FISA warrant to Verizon was set to become declassified in 2038. Who knows when the FISA court decision that the NSA violated the 4th amendment would be declassified.

And btw, China and Russia are ostensibly our allies. We shouldn't be spying on them if we have a problem with them doing it to us or with them finding out about it.

[struggle4progress]

22. I'll try to write slowly, using small words. In the US, we have civilian control of the military

Soldiers, whether they be private first class or four star general, do not decide how our foreign policy should be conducted

Mr Manning released about 750 000 restricted documents: if he had done nothing 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, from the day he arrived in Iraq until the day he was arrested, he spent on average at most 30 seconds per document to review it, download it, and then upload it to Wikileaks

That calculation proves, in fact, that Mr Manning was engaged in nothing whatsoever but a gigantic data dump -- since actually he had to do other things on a daily basis, such as eating, shitting, showering, sleeping, and performing his normally assigned duties -- which he reportedly sometimes performed well, implying he must have spent considerable time on his assigned duties. Mr Manning therefore cannot possibly have had any coherent idea whatsoever about the content he released: he didn't even have time to read it intelligently, let alone think through any potential intelligence or counter-intelligence or policy implications of dumping the documents he dumped

Whatever his motives, his actions were not based on his own careful analysis of facts. I do not know for sure whether he should be regarded as merely a sincere but moronic ideologue, or as a disturbed individual whoring for attention, or a stooge who was played like a fool for someone else's advantage

People like Mr Manning do not contribute productively to movements for change. I would have avoided in the Reagan or Bush years, because no useful coherent progressive narrative can be build around him and his actions, by anyone determined to stick closely to the facts: he is simply an indiscriminate data dumper

[Luminous Animal]

24. Hahahahahahahaha (I can't haha ENOUGH!) Read "Dirty Ware" and then come

back to me about that so-called "civilian control".

[PSPS]

9. You could have saved a lot of typing and just put "#13"

13. I don't like Snowden, therefore we must disregard all of this

[struggle4progress]

14. If you find you dislike reading or writing more than a sentence or two, perhaps you might benefit

from something like this

[RC]

5. I think you nailed it.

Who cares about right and wrong, morals, Rule of Law, the Wording of the Constitution, He is our leader and therefore infallible. This sounds to me more like blind religion run wild. Jim Jones anyone?

[ProSense]

8. So

"A sudden passion for preserving government secrets"

...why doesn't Greenwald release all the information?

Greenwald tries to do damage control
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023244823

[allin99]

10. Yes, it's because they have to be on team obama regardless of the position.....

obviously when you're into politics part of the game is them vs. us, republicans vs. democrats, politicos have to ramp this up in order to get people to be always partisan to you, it's how elections are won and lost. For some the fight against the other team becomes the main focus (and for many, that's why they like and are active in politics in the first place) So if something causes obama a problem, to them it benefits republicans, so people who are more about the fight than the policy must be aligned with obama's fight, and it doesn't matter what position they must take to do it.

[PSPS]

11. I've said before that there's little difference between Bush Worshipers and Obama worshipers.

To them, it's all about "our guy versus your guy." As long as it's their guy, anything is OK and, in fact, the more outrageous the better. Their guy can do no wrong. He is "their leader." My president, right or wrong.

[bobduca]

12. I like Obama way more than

..the worst of his unwavering supporters who cry treason or racism against anyone who might not think all of his policies are wonderful.

A good communicator, decent on domestic issues, but I don't like his repeated tendency to appoint republicans and Bush era leftovers.

That being said he deserves credit for lowering the size of US forces in the two active war zones he inherited.

[kentuck]

13. Nixon gets a lot of credit for going to China...

But people held that little Watergate thing against him.

[Luminous Animal]

21. And Obama curries up to women hating gay hating dictators.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2013/07/12/readout-presidents-call-king-abdullah-saudi-arabia

President Obama spoke by phone today with King Abdullah bin Abd al-Aziz Al Saud of Saudi Arabia. The President relayed his warm wishes to the King on the occasion of Ramadan. The leaders reaffirmed the strong and enduring partnership between the United States and Saudi Arabia and discussed regional issues of mutual interest. The President and the King shared their perspectives on the situation in Syria and expressed their strong concerns about the impact of the conflict on the region. The President emphasized the United States’ continued commitment to provide support to the Syrian Opposition Coalition and the Supreme Military Council to strengthen the opposition. The President and King also exchanged views on recent developments in Egypt. They agreed that the United States and Saudi Arabia have a shared interest in supporting Egypt’s stability. The President expressed his serious concern about the violence in Egypt and underscored the urgent need for an inclusive political process that will enable an early return to a democratically elected civilian government in Egypt. The leaders pledged to continue close consultations between their two governments.

[bobduca]

23. Hey now, he's only evolved on that issue

domestically.

Remember the NSA revelations have shown that foreigners communications are subject to permanent surveillance.

Also from the article, Obama's "shared interests with Saudi Arabia" are of the typical disaster captialist variety.

"The Brotherhood's downfall has, however, been warmly welcomed by three of the rich Arab monarchies of the Gulf, who showered Cairo with aid to prop up the collapsing economy.

Kuwait promised Egypt $4 billion in cash, loans and fuel on Wednesday, a day after Saudi Arabia pledged $5 billion and the United Arab Emirates offered $3 billion."

[Waiting For Everyman]

20. I think it partly has something to do with Snowden not finishing high school. nt