No. One. Knows.

[cherokeeprogressive]

You can make all the claims you want about Trayvon's fears, or Zimmerman's intentions. You can claim to know Zimmerman left his home that night WANTING to kill a black man as the prosecutor stated "he killed Trayvon not because he HAD to, but because he WANTED to.

Truth is?

You can't know. You DON'T know. Absent video combined with audio starting with the first second of the confrontation, NO one can. No one DOES.

I don't give a FUCK about what happens to George Zimmerman. He fucked up. Somehow he found himself in a situation he wasn't prepared to be in. He had a gun, which MAY have emboldened him (again, not being there and NOT being clairvoyant it's impossible to say with 100% certainty) and found his scared ass in a situation where he decided to use it. He's either a BAD ASS (MMA training) or a COWARD (screaming for his life). He can't be both. The DU Jury has at various times tried to claim he IS both coward and bad ass by virtue of his "MMA Training". My guess is COWARD even though he had a loaded gun.

All I can do is GUESS though, and that's all YOU can do as well no matter how certain you think you are about what went down in those few minutes.

The women on the jury heard every word of testimony. Most of us heard some, and relied on news accounts as well as DU posts (I might add that the DAY the word Zimmerman showed up on DU he was considered "white" and convicted) which we used to form our own opinions of whether or not he was guilty.

Now, we blame the women who served on a jury they didn't ask to be part of. They're racists. They lied. They broke the law. They're money-grubbers. They're a group of six who can't know what horrors African-Americans have endured since the inception of this nation.

They sat in the courtroom. We didn't. They didn't ask to. Some DUers would have traded their right arms to.

I think George Zimmerman was guilty of Manslaughter and I'd bet my bottom dollar if that's what he was charged with, he'd be in custody and awaiting a sentencing hearing. That's not what he was charged with though. At the end of the trial, knowing they hadn't made their case, the prosecutors asked the judge to instruct the jurors to consider a lesser charge... one they hadn't attempted to make.

So now we blame them for a miscarriage of justice.

This weekend, there will be violence in 100 cities... bank on it.

Blame who you will, but don't blame those six women.

[Electric Monk]

1. "... He had a gun, which MAY have emboldened him..."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1262&pid=3787

[JI7]

2. i have jury duty next week which i don't want to do , so that's not an excuse for me, b37 is a

racist for sure.

there will be violence in 100 cities ? who is blaming that on those women ?

don't really get what your point is with this.

[Rex]

4. He is complaining about how DUers complain.

We should shut up and know our place.

[cherokeeprogressive]

10. LOL

Shut up? Scream at the top of your lungs!

[Rex]

37. My point is you are doing nothing original.

If I had a dime for every time someone came into GD and told the rest of us how to live...I'd have about 50 bucks in change.

[cherokeeprogressive]

6. My point is blaming the jury for their verdict is wrong.

Either you agree with their verdict, or find reasons for why it was wrong.

Tell me what's the first reason MOST "reasonable" people think it's wrong...?

Bottom line no matter what a person's opinion may be: Two people were there, and one is dead. There were NO eyewitnesses to the "moment" but plenty of people who believe they know what happened in that "moment" and believe their opinion (not empirical fact) should have driven the verdict.

Since that verdict wasn't acceptable, those who reached it must have been at fault somehow.

[JI7]

8. she thought Zimmerman's friend was the Medical examiner , she tried to get a book deal out of this

the way she referred to Rachel Jeantel was racist. the way she referred to Trayvon was racist.

SHE put herself out there to try to get a book deal.

yes 2 people were there and one is dead. the one who is alive is the one who had the gun and was following the one who ended up dead. the one who is dead is the one who had skittles he BOUGHT from the store and was walking back home.

[JI7]

3. we know the family is racist, the brother compared Trayvon to the black kid who shot the baby in the

baby in the face . trying to make some link because they are both the same race. when the better comparison would have been his brother george to the one who shot the baby in the face.

[hrmjustin]

5. Well the one juror's first reaction was to make money off of a book deal.

Why will there be violence in 100 cities?

[cherokeeprogressive]

7. Isn't there a call for protests in 100 cities this weekend? Aren't there agents provocateurs ready

to provide the violence the MSM and Right Wingers are hoping for?

Were I a juror in a case like this, I'd be looking to make money off of it too... seeing as how I was thrust into the position and didn't seek it out...

[Rex]

9. Of course you would.

nt.

[cherokeeprogressive]

11. Tell me why I shouldn't profit from a life experience that was thrust upon me.

[Gravitycollapse]

16. If you're a red-blooded capitalist ready to vampire off the death of black youth...

Then of course there's no problem at all with selling your story of utter failure. Otherwise, it's pretty grotesque.

[Rex]

36. No I won't tell you that, those are life experiences one

had to figure out for themselves. NM what I said, go get a book deal. Maybe mention the dead kid a few times. You want blood money, then I guess it is all yours.

[hrmjustin]

13. Ok but that makes her a money grubber and in your Op you complained about that I think.

We don't know what will be this weekend. Of course you will have provocateurs that will try to start in but people need to show they are pissed off. I hope there is peace this weekend.

[JI7]

14. people are called for jury duty all over the country all the time

most people don't seek it out.

and i will criticize the one looking to make a profit. especially when she goes in public and says stupid racist shit .

[cherokeeprogressive]

17. No one seeks it out. Seeking jury duty would be useless. Doesn't happen.

[hrmjustin]

21. It is not useless if she wanted to make money off it. She got that deal very quickly.

[Gravitycollapse]

22. It's not about seeking it out. It's about having the opportunity dropped in your lap.

They don't have to exploit it. They were given the ethical choice. They chose to take it to the bank.

[JI7]

23. there were people who tried to get on for the Zimmerman trial

[cherokeeprogressive]

25. How may of them did, and what were there names? I'd trumpet them from my own roof.

[JI7]

28. i don't know how many but this was during jury selection they reported about

certain people being let go because they found things like opinions about the case they had written on the internet.

and after everything i have heard from b37 pretty sure she was probably not very honest about what she knew so she would not be removed.

[Gravitycollapse]

12. Those 6 women absolutely were complicit in a severe miscarriage of justice.

It's about time we lay blame on the people who perpetuate racism and injustice.

[cherokeeprogressive]

15. Where do I find the class that teaches me the clairvoyance necessary to make that claim?

[Gravitycollapse]

18. If you think it requires clairvoyance, then you are not paying attention.

[cherokeeprogressive]

24. No, it simply requires the ability to know the mind of another...

In this case, it requires one to know the mind of six.

[Gravitycollapse]

26. A group of white people serve an injustice against a black victim. Welcome to reality.

That doesn't require any special cognitive ability on my part beyond understanding historical and contemporary race relations.

[Hoyt]

27. You gotta stop thinking the Trayvon's of the world are likely guilty.

That's what B37 did. I suspect enough of the others did too that if there were a couple of semi-decent jurors, they were bullied into finding the black guy guilty (hence, acquit the bigot with a gun).

[Gravitycollapse]

31. They were in essence bullied. Although even then they are culpable...

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-george-zimmerman-jurors-20130716,0,5794775.story

[GeorgeGist]

19. No. One. Knows.

Except you!

[cherokeeprogressive]

20. I don't. Neither do you. Hence the post.

[tkmorris]

30. You are missing the point

You can't vote 'guilty' on a jury unless you DO know. Not knowing means voting 'not guilty'. That's the way it works.

[Major Hogwash]

29. "This weekend, there will be violence in 100 cities... bank on it."

Man, you've sure got a postive attitude.

[killbotfactory]

32. No, to beleive Zimmerman's story, and ignore any evidence or testimony to the contrary...

Means you have less reasoning ability and grasp of reality than a paint huffing eight grader.

If you believe that a guy who on the phone admitted to following a "suspect" to a 911 operator, was really only getting out of his car to check an address on a street sign, one of only three in his neighbourhood, you are a fucking idiot.

If you believe that Trayvon, after fleeing from an unknown assailant who was following him for no good reason, decided to double back and attack a stranger who was bigger than him, at night, while on the phone with a girl, you are a fucking idiot.

If you believe that a teenager walking to and from a convenience store around dinnertime when everyone in the neighbourhood was awake deserved to have 911 called on him and be pursued by the "good natured" armed neighbourhood vigilante, you are fucking idiot.

If you don't think Zimmerman, after his 911 call expressing concern about "fucking punks" like Trayvon getting away, and breathlessly telling the 911 operator that he was following him, did indeed follow and try to illegally detain Trayvon, causing a fight that he then shot his way out of, you are a fucking idiot.

You are a fucking idiot, and should be ashamed of yourself.

Or maybe you're just a fucking racist. Same difference.

[angrychair]

33. Wow

First, get your facts straight before blowing up at DU commentators.
1. Manslaughter was an option. Not only is it implied and automatic under FL law, it was in the jury instructions to consider the lesser charge.
2. Zimmerman GOT OUT OF HIS CAR and PURSUED Martin against the advice (NOT command) of the 911 operator!!!!
ask yourself why? "These fucking punks, they always get away!" He referred to Martin, even after shooting Martin and police arrived WITH NO JUSTIFICATION to support it, as the "suspect". Of what?
3. ON VIDEO, IN ZIMMERMAN'S OWN WORDS, during the walkthrough of events with police at the scene, he changed his story of events several times. He claimed that he got out of his truck because he didn't know what street he was on...REALLY??...in a gated community, with 3 streets, he had lived in for 4 years and was a former member of the "THE WATCH" in? He didn't know?Said he didn't see a house number? You mean the one just over your shoulder, in plain view, on the video you are talking on about not seeing a street address? Stated that Martin jumped "out of the bushes" to attack Zimmerman. When the point was made that there are no bushes, he changed his story again. These are facts from the trial, not opinion.
4. They drug tested Martin's body but not Zimmerman. They brought up the fact that Martin had been in fights (wow! 15 yr olds NEVER get in fights) and the fact that he had been ACCUSED of stealing though never arrested or charged.
5. What they were not allowed to mention: Zimmerman was ARRESTED for striking a POLICE OFFICER...as an adult...a drunk adult. There was a RESTRAINING ORDER against Zimmerman by his former girlfriend.
6. What part of neighborhood WATCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! is hard to understand??

Done.

[TorchTheWitch]

34. I'll thank you not to tell me what I do and don't know

And having watched every minute of this trial it was more than those jurors did since I got to also watch all the arguments and ruling they weren't entitled to know about.

I don't need to know exactly what happened in order to find him guilty beyond a reasonable doubt and neither does anyone else. Since when is the standard to find a defendant guilty beyond a reasonable doubt required to have video and audio of the crime? What an asinine thing to say. Guilty or not guilty decisions are based on the EVIDENCE or lack there of. The evidence in this case very clearly showed Zimmerman to be lying about what happened which is backed up by testimony, physical evidence and mostly his own words. he lied repeatedly. He changed his story many times. He went on national tv and claimed to no nothing about the Stand Your Ground law when he took classes concerning the legalities of self-defense including the Stand Your Ground law in Florida as was testified to by his teacher he gave him an "A" for the class.

He lied about why he got out of the car. He lied about following Martin, he lied about pursuing Martin during those 2 minutes, lied about catching up to Martin, and lied about who confronted who. He lied about how he got his injuries that is backed up by his own actions, the fact that they were no where near the sidewalk when he shot Martin so he could not have had his head hit on concrete, and he himself did not believe he was in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm which is why he lied about how he got those insignificant injuries, and he could not have found them to be significant because he refused medical treatment for them until he went to work the next day and was told he would not be allowed to return to work without seeing a doctor. That doctor testified that his injuries were so insignificant that he didn't even require a band-aid, and that he refused to have his nose x-rayed to discover whether or not it was broken, his nose was never fixed, is perfectly straight and he has no complaints of breathing problems indicating a deviated septum. He even lied to his doctor telling her that EMS told him his nose was broken when they said no such thing.

Moreover, he lied about how they came into contact claiming first that Martin jumped out of bushes near him and ambushed him by punching him in the face then when realizing there was nothing even resembling a bush anywhere near where the incident took place changed his story to Martin just appeared out of nowhere, they exchanged words and then Martin hit him. The physical evidence goes a long way in refuting his claim of being attacked as Martin was holding his cellphone, was engaged in a conversation on it with his friend Rachel, and was wearing his headset. No reasonable person would believe that he started a physical confrontation with Zimmerman while having a phone conversation with a friend, holding his phone and wearing his headset. Both his phone and his headset were found in the grass next to his body, and Rachel's phone logs clearly show that this is what occurred.

Further, he lied about where his gun was in the position that he and Martin were in when he claims to have pulled it out and shot him because in that position with Martin sitting on him with his legs straddling him, it was physically impossible for him to have gotten his gun out, therefore, the gun had to have already been out during the struggle and was likely the reason for the struggle. Zimmerman's own numerous lies proven by the evidence and his own actions and words prove that he is guilty... there is no other reason to lie about what happened other than to cover up what REALLY happened.

With the jury instructions the jury was given they could easily found him guilty of at least manslaughter had they actually looked at the evidence instead of believing erroneously that Zimmerman was in reasonable fear of imminent death or great bodily harm. His numerous lies, the position of the body in relation to the sidewalk, his insignificant injuries which he claimed were acquired by having his head smashed on the sidewalk he was nowhere near over 20 times and having his face punched 35-40 times.

Because the jury was incapable of looking at the evidence objectively and coming to the obvious conclusions that everyone was able to do they decided he really was in fear of imminent death or great bodily harm despite the evidence to the contrary and found him not guilty.

And you'll notice I didn't say SHIT about race here. Zimmerman did indeed profile Martin as is abundantly clear from his own words with the dispatcher, but not JUST because he was black. Because Martin was black, young, male and wore typical clothing of the average teenager whatever their race Zimmerman decided that he was a criminal intent on robbing homes because that was the very basic description of the teenager who had just recently been caught for robberies in the neighborhood and by someone who was NOT Zimmerman. And what was it that Zimmerman found so suspicious about Martin? That he was walking in the drizzling rain while wearing his hood over his head. That's IT. When questioned by the police as to why he believed that Martin was acting suspiciously that's all he had to offer. When asked why he thought Martin was on drugs as he said to the dispatcher he had no answer at all to offer.

Again, I'll thank you very much to not make stupid and uninformed claims about what the people here know about this case or how much of it they watched and blame US who HAVE been diligently processing everything about this case for pointing the finger at those imbeciles on the jury who could have EASILY come to at least a manslaughter verdict had they bothered to pay as much attention to the evidence as we did, and it wasn't even OUR civic duty.

That idiotic buffoon of a juror that went on CNN to be interviewed clearly slept through the entire trial as soooo much of it she got completely wrong including ignoring the judge's admonition to disregard the testimony of Serino when he said that he believed that Zimmerman was truthful and admitted in that interview that not only did she not disregard it, she said that it was a BIG reason she decided he wasn't guilty. She claimed that it was pouring rain and late at night which NEITHER side reported - the only place that came about was on the news and the internet that she claimed in voir dire she knew nothing about. She claimed that the friend of Zimmerman's that was a Vietnam vet and testified that he knew about screams from men in military combat was actually the medical examiner! And because she believe erroneously and for no good reason that he was the ME she gave his testimony great weight.

Your DAMN right I blame those imbecile jurors for not doing their sworn duty and judging by the evidence which was CLEAR and exactly why so many people all over the country are LIVID about the verdict.

[laundry_queen]

35. Excellent post. nt

[Sheldon Cooper]

38. You won.

Stop rubbing salt in the wounds.