It should be illegal to carry a firearm while on neighborhood watch...

[Gravitycollapse]

It seems that a lot of neighborhood watch programs attract the wannabe cop types. These are exactly the kind of people you don't want near a firearm. To help build such a barrier, it should be made illegal to carry a firearm if you are on duty through a neighborhood watch program.

Being caught carrying while on duty should bring with it a stiff set of penalties including jail time. Any charges stemming from an unnecessary confrontation between a neighborhood watch participant on duty carrying a firearm should be considered aggravated.

All of these crimes should carry an automatic nullification of any firearm permits, a confiscation of all firearms owned by the subject and a long suspension of the subjects ability to own any firearms.

[dkf]

1. Who else wants to be on neighborhood watch?

Isn't that kind of a drag?

[Loudly]

2. But how do you answer the 2A dolts?

Can you address the language of their claim of "right" head on and explain to them why they're imagining things?

[Lordquinton]

7. Well Regulated

everyone seems to forget that part.

[Warren Stupidity]

9. There is no right to carry a concealed weapon.

Until recently there was no right to carry a pistol at all. That "right" was invented in 2007.

[Lee-Lee]

11. The courts disagree

Ask Illinois.

[Warren Stupidity]

13. yes lee-lee that would be the "right" the courts invented in 2007.

Got to love a rightwing court that insists they don't interpret the constitution in new and unusual ways while interpreting the constitution in new and unusual ways, such as a pistol is now covered under the 2A and a corporation is a person.

[Lizzie Poppet]

15. Bullshit.

The courts recognized a right that previously existed (and brought the law into line with linguistics, I might add).

[Warren Stupidity]

22. The courts invented a right. Prior rulings were overturned.

But I digress. The point wasn't that the court can't do that, it was the hypocrisy of rightwing "strict constructionists" doing it, as they did with citizens united.

There remains no right to concealed carry. Until of course this fucked up rightwing court discovers that "right" in the 2A.

[Lizzie Poppet]

34. I may disagree about the status of that right, but not about RW hypocrisy.

And from the perspective of a different issue, I like to say, "the RW believes in small government: so small that it fits into a woman's vagina."

I also agree that the 2nd Am doesn't guarantee the right to concealed carry.

[Lee-Lee]

20. So you say if the courts

Only ruled that way recently it is an "invented" right, and not just a recognition of an existing right?

Are you going to be intellectually consistent then and say that any court ruling legalizing same sex marriage is "inventing" a new right that we should ignore, since it is a relatively new area the courts are ruling on?

Just because it took a while or courts to recognize a right doesn't mean the right doesn't exist, just that our imperfect system took a while to recognize it.

[Warren Stupidity]

23. No I'm saying this court is a bunch of right wing hypocrites.

Do you disagree?

[Lee-Lee]

25. What court?

Just SCOTUS? The court that struck down DOMA and upheld the ACA as constitutional is right wing?

The IL case I cited never went there, the state lost in Federal Appellate court and elected not to appeal to SCOTUS, althought they could have.

[Warren Stupidity]

30. Yes that court.

By the way neither ruling invented new rights. For example see Loving v Virginia.

[LuvNewcastle]

3. I agree.

The neighborhood watch should be there to watch and call the police if they see something wrong. They shouldn't be out toting guns and chasing down suspects. It's just not their job.

[TorchTheWitch]

5. there is no "on duty"

Neighborhood Watch is not a civilian security service. There are no patrols. All it is is getting to know your neighbors, keeping an eye out for one another, and if you see anything suspicious as you go about your regular daily life to call the police and report it. Zimmerman despite his supposed training decided that it was a great opportunity to ACT like a security guard for the complex when he was not. His actions in behaving like a security guard when he was not irritated a lot of the residents, and as there was no one above him to reprimand him for how he was behaving he continued to behave as a security guard when he was not. He wanted this status as being the Neighborhood Watch Captain as a means to act like a cop without any of the rules or training that police officers must adhere to. Because there was no one to complain to about how he was behaving and no one who knew that what he was doing was contrary to what Neighborhood Watch IS and that there were no other neighbors who were part of Neighborhood Watch who would have had the training about it and would have known his behavior of acting like a security guard was contradictory to what Neighborhood Watch IS he was able to continue to do it.

Don't let how Zimmerman acted as a member of Neighborhood Watch give you the impression that they act like he did - like an unpaid neighborhood security guard with authority. That's not at ALL what Neighborhood Watch is about. It is another organization called Town Watch that some communities coordinate with their local police department where citizen volunteers are given specialized training by their local PD, wear uniforms, and DO go on patrols. Town Watch is completely different than Neighborhood Watch. Sanford PD has no Town Watch organization. Town Watch organizations anymore are usually restricted to very small communities where the local PD is extremely limited having only a handful of officers or less. Town Watch organizations date all the way back to colonial times when there was essentially no police departments outside large cities in the colonies.

Zimmerman coordinated with Sanford PD to start a Neighborhood Watch program in the gated community where he lived, and was supposed to have been given training concerning what it was all about, what he was supposed to do and not do, etc. Neighborhood Watch forbids the use of any weapons or the pursuit of anyone deemed suspicious. They are ONLY to observe and report any suspicious activity. My understanding is that though the Neighborhood Watch was coordinated between him and the police department he never did any training as the training materials come from the Neighborhood Watch organization, not the police department as well as signage, stickers, decals, etc. New Neighborhood Watch local programs are supposed to be organized and trained through that organization. All the police really do is point you to the NW organization, many provide the costs for the street signs, etc., and only to be aware that the community has a Neighborhood Watch local program, which person is the head (in this case Zimmerman appointed himself since he was the one interested in starting the local program) and which neighbors are involved in the program. The captain is to be trained by the NW organization and make sure any of the neighbors involved also get their training through the NW organization. Zimmerman, however, started the local program because he wanted to play neighborhood cop, ignored the training (which is why the NW organization had no record of him) and did not recruit the neighbors to join in the effort - all contrary to everything NW is about - and because he wanted to pretend he was the neighborhood cop and throw his weight around.

I live on a tiny dead end street that is much like a neighborhood within a neighborhood. Most of the homes are owned by others and rented out, but there are still a number of owner occupied homes. This was a "problem" street when I first moved here as most of the owners that rented out their homes had no care for the kind of people they had as tenants. We had prostitutes, drug dealers, juvenile delinquents just hanging out in the street sitting on peoples' cars and occasionally getting into mass brawls a couple of times included guns waving around - it was terrible and damned scary to live here. Then slowly the street improved with better tenants, the prostitutes got arrested, the obnoxious partying college kids got thrown out, the juvenile delinquents grew up and moved out on their own, the drug dealers finally got arrested, etc. Two of the renters here that have been here a long time decided to get together with the police to organize a NW program for our street. Most of us belong to it. We got the signage, got the street lighting improved, got the drug dealers caught red handed so they finally went to jail, same thing with the hookers since we were looking out and discovered where they met their customers for business (they did it right on the street in the "johns" cars and threw the used rubbers out the car windows right on the street), reported when we noticed Crazy Old Man really went bonkers and couldn't care properly for himself anymore, etc.

Now the street is completely different than when I first moved here. We still have a couple of problem neighbors, the one house across the street still hasn't dealt with it's code violations (but at least now it's empty instead of being rented to cheap creepy weirdos at really low cost), the lighting installed dealt with a lot of the vehicle vandalism and thugs using our street to conduct their drug deals and the hookers servicing their johns, etc. Owners that rented the homes finally realized it was better to spend a little money and fix their homes up a bit so they could charge a normal rent and get better tenants that didn't mess up their homes even worse, paid the rent, and stuck around for years.

The point is, we got a lot of improvement, and all we really did was get to know our neighbors, start looking out for each other and call the police whenever we might see something suspicious as we go about our daily lives. As a result, pretty much everyone knows everyone here, there's weekend neighborhood barbecues, the kids can all feel safe going trick or treating on our street on Halloween now, our street is no longer used as a dumping ground for illegal cars that some jerk didn't want to have to pay to have gotten rid of, and we really don't DO anything. Nobody is a nosy busybody out looking for suspicious things, we just pay attention. If someone's car alarm goes off we look out the window to make sure that it's not being vandalized and that it's just an unfortunate error that set it off, if the domestic violence couple are trying to kill each other again, instead of ignoring it like we used to we call the police. Everyone keeps an eye on the kids when they're out playing to make sure they aren't doing anything crazy or dangerous. It's nothing different than the close knit communities most of us grew up in where everyone knew each other, everyone looked out for each other, all the kids played together, we make sure that if it snows the old lady that lives alone gets her walk and steps shoveled and her mail gets taken up to her door so she doesn't have to shuffle all the way to her mailbox, and instead of ignoring problems we notice, we call the police and just let them deal with it. All as we just go about our daily lives. That's ALL Neighborhood Watch is. But it made an enormous difference in our little neighborhood within a neighborhood.

[KG]

6. zim wasn't on a 'nieghborhood watch', he was playing dirty harry in his sick little brain.

[Pelican]

16. En route to Target...

[Spazito]

32. Yep, and then he shifted his route to a different 'target'

Trayvon Martin.

[Warren Stupidity]

8. It should be illegal to carry a handgun in almost all circumstances.

[davidpdx]

10. I guess it would depend upon the neighborhood association

Assuming that it was a formal thing and not imaginary in one's mind like in the case of George "wanna be cop" Zimmerman.

The problem is if someone is legally carrying a gun, what can you really do? Tell them they can't carry their gun. I suppose it could be a requirement for participating in a formal neighborhood watch (again I don't believe this was the case with Zimmerman) to agree you will not be armed. The only other way would be to make it a law, which the deep pocketed NRA would rally against.

To be clear, I support gun control and am disgusted with the Zimmerman verdict.

[Frytruk33]

12. What about walking to my mailbox?

Seriously though, please don't judge all chl holders based on GZ actions. He should have stayed in his damn car, it would have prevented a tragic homicide and the ruination of his life. I understand that while carrying a firearm I have the means to hurt, maim, or even take a life if necessary; thus I have a moral obligation to avoid doing so under normal circumstances. This includes being willing to "turn the other cheek" or even to appear weak or cowardly by actively avoiding confrontation. I also avoid certain people and places to prevent confrontational situations. No bars, clubs, concerts , or celebrations that include alcohol while I have a firearm on my person. I also feel I'm obligated to have the good training and judgement to safely use a firearm. Most firearm owners I know have similar feelings regarding concealed carry. Unfortunately there are some idiots with guns out there, but that's a risk we all take while living in America.

[Lee-Lee]

21. Very well said nt

[Warren Stupidity]

31. If you can't walk to your mailbox without being armed...

oh never mind, this thread is infested with the usual gunner-types, people so fearful they can't walk to their mailbox unarmed.

[friendly_iconoclast]

33. You are free to walk to *your* mailbox carrying anything you want...

...without soliciting the opinion of others on whether said items are suitable- and so is everybody else.

[Warren Stupidity]

35. The information was presented here for comment.

This being a discussion board and everything. A person who needs to be carrying a gun to fetch his mail is a person who lives his life in fear. My opinion is that if a person cannot leave his or her house without a gun that person should seek medical advice.

[friendly_iconoclast]

36. You seem to forget that some people live in rural areas...

..which are know to have various sorts of wild/feral canids, black bears and the occasional panther/cougar.

[Warren Stupidity]

37. right. of course. that must be it. mailbox cougars.

We have a bear living in our woods. I've never once thought that I ought to have a freaking gun to go fetch my mail.

[Dash87]

14. 'Neighborhood watch' is a meaningless label.

I mean that as in they have no more authority than normal citizens. That's why I found the fact that "neighborhood watch captain" was passed around as if it were a real title with authority pretty silly.

You could be "neighborhood watch wizard" or "neighborhood watch president" - all meaningless titles as they have no authority over anyone.

That's why they should be subject to CCW laws of that state and nothing more or less.

[DirkGently]

17. Pretty sure you're just supposed to "watch."

Not, like, patrol around like a mall cop in a golf cart.

[IdaBriggs]

18. He wasn't on watch - he was on his way to Target with his CCW.

Which isn't allowed in Target.

So it was just "pure luck" that he was able to see that scary looking black boy and then shoot him after he jumped him from the invisible bushes.

Honest, he didn't have the gun in his hand when he was stalking him - he pulled it out from underneath his bottom and Trayvon having no marks on his knees doesn't mean the recoil knocked him on his ass.

Really.

[X_Digger]

24. Target doesn't disallow CCW.

Target has signs up about the *unlicensed* possession of a firearm yadda yadda.

[IdaBriggs]

27. I believe other posters have stated that it is up to each store.

His store (per what I read on the intertubes, so please keep that in mind), his local store does not allow guns in their store. CCW people are expected to leave their guns in their vehicles, just like when they walk into other places that do not allow guns.

[X_Digger]

28. Let me say that generally, Target stores in FL don't disallow CCW..

It would be rare indeed, since Florida businesses are generally *very* pro-CCW.

I can't say about that store specifically, though, true.

[Major Nikon]

19. It should be illegal to carry a firearm period

Guns don't make us safer. The opposite is true.

[One_Life_To_Give]

26. Whats the difference between, neighborhood, village and town?

Neighborhood watch is about as close as we come today to the traditional Militia. They served the original police and security functions as needed till such time as police departments became common. The neighborhood could opt to create it's own police force which might not be significantly better trained than a Watch, Guard Force or Militia.

[ellenfl]

29. zimmy wasn't on duty. in fact, i heard that he is not allowed to carry while on duty. eom

[bigwillq]

38. If you're legally allowed to carry a gun

you should legally be able to carry it where ever it is legal to.

[GlashFordan]

39. Without sounding like Jefferson Davis

It's a states right thing. Many states have little or no legal carry. Some states have easy ccw. I don't believe a photographer in NYC can tell a farmer in Idaho that he's not allowed to carry a firearm.

And conversely that farmer in Idaho can't tell the photographer in NYC who to marry.