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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsBradley Manning is a hero and a freedom fighter.
Last edited Wed Jul 31, 2013, 08:42 AM - Edit history (1)
I support any and all non-violent resistance to the abomination that is the global security state that emerged from the rubble of the World Trade Center disaster. Bradley Manning will likely spend decades in jail for the crime of exposing war crimes and revealing a small part of what the global security state is up to and how it conducts its affairs. The war crimes he exposed will never be prosecuted. The top war criminals will live lives of luxury. That is a tragedy that can only be remedied by more Bradley Mannings, by more Juilan Assanges, by more Edward Snowdens. Exposing the operations of the global security state is the one hope we have of defeating it.
I salute Bradley Mannng for having the courage of his convictions.
William769
(55,147 posts)quinnox
(20,600 posts)These men all deserve awards and accolades from a grateful nation, instead of persecution and smear jobs by U.S. government propaganda outlets.
forestpath
(3,102 posts)delrem
(9,688 posts)wilsonbooks
(972 posts)Tx4obama
(36,974 posts)bobduca
(1,763 posts)Do they teach that neat trick in NSA-booster camp?
Tx4obama
(36,974 posts)And he has been charged with committing several felonies.
You might not like those facts - but they are facts.
bobduca
(1,763 posts)are loyal to a fault.
zeemike
(18,998 posts)Is being convicted in your eyes...that seems to be a fact too.
progressoid
(49,991 posts)That argument doesn't mean anything.
Gandhi, Rosa Parks, Karen Silkwood, Daniel Ellsburg etc. etc. all admitted they committed crimes. But that admission of guilt of a crime doesn't mean that person has done something wrong. Sometimes it's done to show that the system is wrong.
Response to Tx4obama (Reply #7)
Post removed
totodeinhere
(13,058 posts)"support any and all non-violent resistance to the abomination that is the global security state that emerged from the rubble of the World Trade Center disaster." That is what we are dealing with here. History is replete with brave souls who committed civil disobedience, technically crimes, who in so doing advanced the cause of human rights and liberty. Snowden has been convicted of nothing but if he is ever submitted to a kangaroo court as Bradley Manning was that won't change the fact that he is a courageous patriot who sacrificed much for a good cause.
avebury
(10,952 posts)Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)midnight
(26,624 posts)bigwillq
(72,790 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)Did you not wonder about his emotional stability when he was found in a fetal position on the floor after having carved 'I want' into a chair?
What Manning 'revealed', regarding the Apache helicopter attack, was soldiers asking for, and receiving, permission to fire in a war zone. Even Assange said it looked like one of the men killed was carrying an RPG. Is this what you want to count as a 'war crime'?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]
grahampuba
(169 posts)than ones moral footing.
lets just call firing on medical assistance a war crime and leave it at that.
randome
(34,845 posts)[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]
im guessing you'll find a point to argue about that as well.
zeemike
(18,998 posts)IMO...
That kind of emotional reaction is usual in sociopaths.
But I guess we live in a time when the sociopaths rule.
randome
(34,845 posts)That suggestion is utter nonsense.
And has absolutely nothing to do with the hundreds of thousands of classified documents Manning dumped.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]
zeemike
(18,998 posts)By saying hey it was just a war zone...and they were just asking permission to fire...and you hear the gunner say "come on , let us fire", like that would make his day...and then chuckle when the APC run over the bodies lying on the ground...
Fuck that shit...it is sick and should not be defended or minimized
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)If it wasn't bad enough the Apache fired on journalists and then on the people that stopped to help, the helicopter's crew was giggling like a fucking pair of 12 year olds playing Call of Duty.
tumtum
(438 posts)Joking, laughing, giggling is a way of relieving the incredible stress of combat.
I flew gunships, had a chopper shot out from under me, so before you start condemning the crew of that Apache, put yourself in their shoes and understand what was going on in their minds.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)If people aren't exposed to what combat and war does to the people sent off to fight it, they'll keep sending people off to it.
That's why the video is important. It shows what war actually entails, not what the "freedom isn't free" brigade wants people to think.
tumtum
(438 posts)War sucks big time, and I agree that this video is important to show those that have never been in that situation what the incredible stress combat does to a person.
That's why I won't criticize, nor condemn the crew of this Apache for their giggling, I can criticize them for the actions they took though, along with their superior officers that gave them permission to engage the civilians.
Again, from one combat vet to another, welcome home.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)I wasn't necessarily trying to demonize the crew, just the circumstances that make normally good people do horrible things.
Glad someone else understands.
tumtum
(438 posts)can truly understand what happens to the human mind and body under those conditions.
I believe that Pvt. Manning and J. Assange released this video, not to demonize the Apache crew, as some here have done, but show how war can, as you said, turn good people into something that not even their families would recognize.
I believe Manning did this country a service by releasing this video so people can see what we experienced and I hope this young man doesn't spend the best part of his years locked up in a cage.
delrem
(9,688 posts)tumtum
(438 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)I have never been in a war situation but I think I've learned enough over the years to understand how some cope with the horror of warfare. I'm sure there is a better word for it but all I can think of is 'detachment'.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]
usGovOwesUs3Trillion
(2,022 posts)detachment from their torsos.
You know what I think of when i see defenders of these horrible crimes now...
http://www.buzzfeed.com/andrewkaczynski/is-this-the-most-embarrassing-interview-fox-news-has-ever-do
I bet I'm not the only one either.
zeemike
(18,998 posts)When done when you have just killed a bunch of people.
But it is so common now people think it is normal...it is not unless you are a sadist or sociopath.
In the good old days people did not think killing in war was funny or fun...and people that did were watched closely by the authorities for good reason...but that has all changed now.
randome
(34,845 posts)[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)tumtum
(438 posts)When my chopper was shot down, I managed to do a "hard landing", myself, my co-pilot, and my gunner, when we realized that we weren't injured, broke out in laughter and jokes because we had just survived being shot down and walked away.
Nothing unusual in a war zone.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)joyfully blowing up people is another.
tumtum
(438 posts)the stress of combat does horrible things to the mind and body causing one to do what they normally wouldn't do, not everyone, but a significant portion.
After doing strafing runs on enemy positions, as we were leaving the combat zone, my crew would laugh and joke to relieve the stress that we had just gone through, it's a natural human reaction in that environment.
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)Yeah the stress just gets to you.
Whatever.
tumtum
(438 posts)Last edited Wed Jul 31, 2013, 04:41 PM - Edit history (1)
How many deployments do they have? 3? 4? 5?
How many times were they shot at?
Like I said, unless you've been there, you have no idea how combat fucks you up, both physically and mentally.
Because I can relate to them as far as the incredible toll combat takes out of someone, I won't fault them for their comments, what I will criticize is the actions they took and their superiors clearing them to engage civilians.
Zorra
(27,670 posts)and their destructive, devious anti-democratic endeavors over a period of years, it appears that you would write off Iraq as just necessary collateral damage, simply the price of doing business as usual, a necessary evil done in the name of the progress of global authoritarian fascism.
Judging from your past posts, it appears that your, and your cohorts, primary propaganda objective in this case is to concentrate on the documents, and make them seem paramount, while dismissing the real time torture, destruction, murder and other heinous crimes against humanity committed by the Military Industrial Complex that were exposed by Bradley.
I dearly wish I could say what I really wish to say here. I am hoping that, some day, the admins will say it for me.
Congratulations! Ms. Hathaway, er, randome, you are the first poster I have ever consider putting on ignore, and the first that I have put on ignore.
Have a nice day.
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)randome
(34,845 posts)Even Assange said it looked like they were carrying an RPG. That has nothing to do with the immorality of the Iraq War. It's a fact that most people, including Assange, said they had weapons.
They knew the risk they were taking by being in a dangerous area after military curfew. Now do you want to spring into action and accuse me of supporting the military and a curfew over a country we had no moral justification to enforce?
If so, you would still be ignoring the fact that the soldiers were in a war zone and did the job they were there to do.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Let me help you out: not a damn thing.
That's called "poisoning the well."
randome
(34,845 posts)...is not thinking clearly about what he was doing.
The Apache helicopter pilots requested, and received, permission to fire on individuals they though were insurgents.
Even Assange said it looked like one of the them was carrying an RPG.
What America did to Iraq was abominable and I'm not even sure that's a strong enough word. But those soldiers do not appear to be 'war criminals' to me. And Manning did not even bother to determine that, he simply dumped everything he could steal to Wikileaks.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Told us about deliberate coverups and misrepresentation of Iraqi and Afghan casualties, DoD contractors abusing children in Afghanistan, the US looking the other way when the Iraqi Security Forces tortures its prisoners, the State Department actively working to screw Haitian workers out of a minimum wage increase, the US training Egyptian torturers, and deliberate efforts to cover up the drone strikes in Yemen.
So, let's see: innocent people being killed, children being raped, torture, government backing corporate interests and screwing the poor, more torture, and more innocent people being killed and deliberately covered up. You know, stuff progressives should be angry about.
In other words, he embarrassed TPTB, and he had to pay for it.
randome
(34,845 posts)I have no sympathy for the government covering up anything, much less war statistics, but that wasn't Manning's motive, he was just lashing out by stealing hundreds of thousands of documents and passing them to Wikileaks.
I doubt he himself cared much about what he was reporting since it was humanly impossible to actually review all the documents he stole.
His emotional instability required that he lash out in some manner and now he's about to pay the price for that.
I still hope he gets some leniency for his sentence since his commanding officers were negligent in letting him have access to this material in the first place given his demonstrated instability.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]
MrMickeysMom
(20,453 posts)... and so was the command structure. No one arrested there, just Manning for telling about it.
I hate bullshit remarks like when someone says one of the civilians was being perceived as carrying an RPG. Two of those civilians who were targeted and gunned down were MEDIA holding the equipment of a cameraman. First responders to the scene who were also targeted and gunned down were responding to the first murder. Then, two innocent children were wounded as they saw their relatives murdered on that same insanity.
This was done in OUR name, and you're selling bullshit about "Even Assange said it looked like..."
If you have a point to make that is fact based, then make it, otherwise please STFU about the fact that we have to see someone who was brave act. He was brave to have first followed a due process to his superiors about war crimes ... only to be ignored. And when he did whistle blow to the media about it (or we'd NEVER understand yet other crimes committed in our name) then HE himself is "renditioned", in fact, mentally and physically tortured in my book. He then serves 3 years in a military prison without a trial only to GET a trial with this bullshit outcome.
And the Obama administration, just like the Bush administration thinks I should turn on American Gladiators and just go back to bed?
Well, FUCK THAT, Mr. President.
randome
(34,845 posts)Julian Assange, a WikiLeaks editor, acknowledged to Fox News in an interview Tuesday evening that its likely some of the individuals seen in the video were carrying weapons. Assange said his suspicions about the weapons were so strong that a draft version of the video they produced made specific reference to the AK-47s and RPGs. Ultimately, Assange said, WikiLeaks became unsure about the weapons. He claimed the RPG could have been a camera tripod, so editors decided not to point it out. Based upon visual evidence I suspect there probably were AKs and an RPG, but Im not sure that means anything, Assange said. Nearly every Iraqi household has a rifle or an AK. Those guys could have just been protecting their area.
I don't know all the details about contractor abuses but that's rarely mentioned by Manning or his supporters. My suspicion is that he did not know about it -it was 'collateral damage' in the documents he stole- but feel free to provide a link that shows otherwise.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)Democrats would generally side with the whistle-blowers. If you watched the video and still have that attitude, I feel bad for you.
hack89
(39,171 posts)totodeinhere
(13,058 posts)to being "locked up naked in a cage and driven half mad while deprived of all basic rights."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-scheer/the-shameful-exploitation_b_2298428.html
hack89
(39,171 posts)and was acquited of.the most serious change.
He was in solitary for nine months - he has been in a regular prison for over two years. His treatment was not right but it was not a crime. It certainly was not torture.
Maven
(10,533 posts)for a non-violent offender?
do the words "cruel and unusual" mean anything to you?
Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)Warren Stupidity
(48,181 posts)The Supreme Court ruled against the injunctions, but Ellsberg faced twelve felony charges for a possible sentence of 115 years before his case was dismissed on grounds of criminal governmental misconduct against him by the White House.
Aaron Swartz - committed suicide while facing conviction on 13 felony counts for an act of civil disobedience.
Tim DeChristopher - two year sentence for felony conviction for disrupting oil lease auctions.
On September 9, 1980, Berrigan, his brother Philip, and six others (the "Plowshares Eight" began the Plowshares Movement. They illegally trespassed onto the General Electric Nuclear Missile facility in King of Prussia, Pennsylvania, where they damaged nuclear warhead nose cones and poured blood onto documents and files. They were arrested and charged with over ten different felony and misdemeanor counts.[10] On April 10, 1990, after ten years of appeals, Berrigan's group was re-sentenced and paroled for up to 23 and 1/2 months in consideration of time already served in prison. Their legal battle was re-created in Emile de Antonio's 1982 film In The King of Prussia, which starred Martin Sheen and featured appearances by the Plowshares Eight as themselves.
Shall I continue?
hack89
(39,171 posts)that list would be more relevant to Manning.
HardTimes99
(2,049 posts)limpyhobbler
(8,244 posts)Bradley Manning should be issued a pardon and released.
JimboBillyBubbaBob
(1,389 posts).....motion.
Scuba
(53,475 posts)WillyT
(72,631 posts)Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)I agree.
DLevine
(1,788 posts)Catherina
(35,568 posts)Love It!
Catherina
(35,568 posts)Anonymous ?@OpManning 33m
#ActForBrad: A picture from last night's rally to support Bradley #Manning in DC at The #WhiteHouse via @TheHallOrg
and this one too, inside the Pentagon Metro Station
Safetykitten
(5,162 posts)Laughing Mirror
(4,185 posts)He had the courage to expose human rights violations and war crimes. I don't know about you, but I like people who do things like that.
Harmony Blue
(3,978 posts)and the generations yet to be..simply understated how much of a hero he is.