the 14th amendment?

[DonCoquixote]

Ok, I keep hearing the 14th Amendment could be Obama's ace in the hole, allwoing him to raise the debt ceiling, but I also heard he could then be impached, and that the Supreme Court (aka Tony and his goons) could rule against it. What Gives?

[PoliticAverse]

1. People that think Obama would be removed from office for using the 14th amendment

as a reason for paying the public debt are divorced from reality.

[Warpy]

5. They will try to remove him

but they'll fail.

[Barack_America]

2. Impeach and shame our first black president.

This has been their goal all along. Obama, of course, has given them nothing, so they will force his hand with the debt ceiling.

[MineralMan]

3. It could be, but it's not an action that will be taken lightly.

It would immediately lead to a Constitutional crisis. The Treasury is an Executive Branch function, but authorization for disbursement is a Congressional function. The conflict would be monumental, and the SCOTUS would end up deciding the issue. The conservative SCOTUS, at that.

The President is, I am absolutely certain, exploring all possibilities, but with a clear understanding of what each possibility means. I'm not sure that understanding is that widespread elsewhere, though, even in an informed forum like DU.

[Warpy]

6. We're already in a constitutional crisis

A minority in one half of one third of our balanced powers is trying to undo a law passed by both houses of Congress, signed by the president and vetted by the USSC.

This minority must not be allowed to prevail.

[PoliticAverse]

9. We're not in a constitutional crisis. n/t

[Warpy]

16. Repeating that statement will not make it come true.

A minority doesn't like a law so they shut down the government to try to get it abolished through extortion. This is a constitutional crisis.

[PoliticAverse]

17. Is there some action before the Supreme Court on this issue that I've missed?

The Government has undergone partial shutdowns before, including one time possibly because
some guy didn't get a good seat on some airplane.

[MineralMan]

10. I agree. I do not believe that this minority will prevail.

I believe they will fail, and soon. I certainly hope I'm right, because I have no way to change any of this at this time.

Next year, we can change everything, if we have the will to do so.

GOTV 2014!

[DonCoquixote]

7. and your quote summarizes a fear

" The conflict would be monumental, and the SCOTUS would end up deciding the issue. The conservative SCOTUS, at that."

You see, I have a theory that the reason the GOP has been so confident is because they know thr Scotus is rigged; Fat Tony will glaldy serve them Obama's head on a platter.

[MineralMan]

8. You could be right. I don't know.

The Tea Party has thrown everything into a cocked hat. Their threats used to keep more moderate Republicans in line have worked for a long time. The impasse will continue until those more moderate Republicans find the threat from their constituents to be more frightening than those from the Tea Party.

Personally, I think that time is close at hand, and this crisis may be the straw that breaks the Tea Party camel's back. I'm hoping so, anyhow.

[Drunken Irishman]

19. The SCOTUS ruling against it does what, tho?

Void what Obama did and we go right back to square one?

I think that's the question I have ... if it does, then you better bet they'll begin impeachment hearings and probably vote to impeach him in the House (Senate will acquit), but we'd still have the crisis to deal with, no?

[ZombieHorde]

4. I have no idea. nt

[BlueCaliDem]

11. I don't believe it's going to happen. If President Obama tries, he'll be, 1: Saving the Republicans'

asses from political suicide;

2: Open himself up to impeachment proceedings - which will undoubtedly begin as soon as the GOP get the waiting and already drafted-up papers from ALEC. They'll immediately start even if they know it's not going anywhere, but it's marketing GOLD. The political fallout will be disastrous for the president, the Democratic Party, and this country, and advantageous to the traitors and moneyed Robber Barons funding the GOP to work against our Constitutional Democratic Republic.

I heard Treasury Secretary Jack Lew say this morning that the president has consulted with his attorneys about invoking the 14th Amendment, but they don't see how he can to raise the debt ceiling. Politically, although this would indirectly help the American people (like the PPACA will), it will most certainly backfire on Democrats in the 2014 and 2016 presidential elections, just like voting for the PPACA did. Americans are that ungrateful.

IMHO, I sincerely don't believe the American people are worth such a sacrifice that, if history is any indicator, would hand the White House, the Senate, AND the U.S. House to the Koch Bros' GOP to complete their quest to destroy this country. Already we're seeing polls showing that Americans are beginning to turn against the president and Democrats; believing the GOP well-funded propagated lie that both parties are to blame for this Republican shutdown while it's clear that Democrats are NOT at fault here.

I would caution the president against putting his faith and this country's fate in the hands of a fickle and politically disinterested American electorate just to avoid a debt ceiling crisis. Americans, I've noticed, always do the right thing - after they've exhausted every other option.

We can't take that chance now we're slowly moving the country forward. We need to keep the WH and the Senate (and hopefully in 2014, the House) in Democratic hands. Justices Scalia and Kennedy, as well as Bader-Ginsberg, are ripe for retiring. The Koch Bros and their billionaire pals know this, and they need to put a Republican in the WH in next election in order to keep the SCOTUS in their hands for decades to come.

[Motown_Johnny]

12. All are true

Full faith and credit is in the 14th. so some consider it an option

The House can always impeach. This could push them over the edge. It won't really matter since The Senate would not convict. It would just be another show.

The Supreme Court is not to be trusted. No way to know how it would rule.

[2naSalit]

13. The text...

From the Constitution itself:

Edited to add link to main page of the Constitution: http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/

http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/amendmentxiv

14th Amendment; Section 4.

The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any state shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.

Section 5.

The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.

Doesn't say anything about SCOTUS involvement here but I do think there are portions of the Sec 4 element that could rescind payment of wages to those responsible for this debacle as it is insurrectionist in nature and deed.

AND

Article II; Section 4.

The President, Vice President and all civil officers of the United States, shall be removed from office on impeachment for, and conviction of, treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors.

It didn't work for them when Gingrich impeached Clinton and I suspect that it wouldn't work for them in this case given that so many in the House are guilty of worse offenses than whatever they try to hang on Obama. And since the actions of Obama would be in support of wresting the fate of the nation from the hands of unscrupulously treasonous saboteurs, I don't think they'd have a legal leg to stand on.

Time will tell...

[jakeXT]

14. (2011)The 14th Amendment, the Debt Ceiling and a Way Out

WASHINGTON — A few days ago, former President Bill Clinton identified a constitutional escape hatch should President Obama and Congress fail to come to terms on a deficit reduction plan before the government hits its borrowing ceiling.

He pointed to an obscure provision in the 14th Amendment, saying he would unilaterally invoke it “without hesitation” to raise the debt ceiling, “and force the courts to stop me.”

...

The words of the provision are in important ways quite vague. “Nobody would argue,” said Sanford Levinson, a law professor at the University of Texas, “that Section 4 is clear in its meaning, other than at the time everyone thought that the South, if they ever got back in control, would not pay Civil War debt.”

..

“You’re not supposed to hold the validity of the public debt hostage to achieve political ends,” Mr. Balkin said. He added, though, that “Section 4 is a fail-safe that only comes into operation when everything else is exhausted.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/25/us/politics/25legal.html?_r=0

Ironic, looks like the south is back in control

[arely staircase]

15. this part I guess

Section 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.

It was basically to make paying off Confederate debt with US tax dollars unconstitutional I think.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

18. The 14th doesn't say the executive gets to raise the debt ceiling

Only congress can allocate money for spending. The 14th says that without an increased debt ceiling all real revenues must first be spent on servicing national debt. In effect, an instantaneous balanced budget. It would be devastating on the economy though.

We will eventually have to return to the Clinton era budget. If debt servicing outpaces real tax receipts then we will default by default.

[rdking647]

20. better to use the trillion dollar coin

31 U.S.C. 5112(k) as originally enacted by Public Law 104-208 in 1996:

The Secretary may mint and issue bullion and proof platinum coins in accordance with such specifications, designs, varieties, quantities, denominations, and inscriptions as the Secretary, in the Secretary's discretion, may prescribe from time to time.

In 2000, the word "bullion" was replaced with "platinum bullion coins"

issue a trillion dollar coin. deposit it in the fed. use the money to keep us under teh debt ceiling.

that way theres nothing to bring to the SC...