The GOP is now openly talking up defaulting on the US debt

[thelordofhell]

They are now in direct violation of the 14th Amendment of the Constitution Of The United States.

This is nothing if not treason.

[Cha]

1. Sociopathic terrorist assholes don't care who knows it..

[texanwitch]

2. That was the whole point to begin with.

If they can't have the white house then burn the country down.

[starroute]

18. It's no longer about enacting an agenda or even taking power

It's becoming increasingly clear that the real endgame involves destroying the government itself. That's what the Koch brothers are after and that's what their Tea Party lackies are being set to accomplish.

Oh, sure, they'll leave a husk of government. They like the military and the police power, because those protect them against the rabble. But they mean to destroy any ability of government to provide for the common good. And what's happening now is just one move in their long game.

[CrispyQ]

69. "...you don't know what you've got till it's gone."

Many a teabagger will be feeling that, if the Koch's get their way.

An excellent post, starroute.

[Eleanors38]

70. And to think, some still want civilian guns banned. nt

[LondonReign2]

74. Wait, what?

[snappyturtle]

3. Can you tell me who istalking up defaulting on the debt? nt

[AngryOldDem]

8. Here's one article I found:

http://www.nationaljournal.com/daily/republicans-downplay-default-dismiss-debt-deadline-20131006?mrefid=LeadStoryTiles_medium

Tea Partiers, predictably.

[snappyturtle]

21. Thanks! nt

[AlinPA]

12. Boehner on TV this AM.

[Katashi_itto]

4. Sedition, not treason. Treason is working for a foreign power.

Sedition is the home grown version.

Could also be:


SEC. 802. DEFINITION OF DOMESTIC TERRORISM.
(a) DOMESTIC TERRORISM DEFINED- Section 2331 of title 18, United States Code, is amended--

(1) in paragraph (1)(B)(iii), by striking `by assassination or kidnapping' and inserting `by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping';
(2) in paragraph (3), by striking `and';
(3) in paragraph (4), by striking the period at the end and inserting `; and'; and
(4) by adding at the end the following:
`(5) the term `domestic terrorism' means activities that--
`(A) involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State;
`(B) appear to be intended--
`(i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
`(ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion;or
`(iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and
`(C) occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States.'.
(b) CONFORMING AMENDMENT- Section 3077(1) of title 18, United States Code, is amended to read as follows:

`(1) `act of terrorism' means an act of domestic or international terrorism as defined in section 2331;'.

[lastlib]

56. 5 (B) (ii):

&quot ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion;"

[Katashi_itto]

59. Yup, thats the one

[duffyduff]

71. The Kochs belong in prison for sedition.

ALL of their assets should be seized.

[Nite Owl]

5. Obama needs to have a

prime time talk to the people and explain just what will happen, just how serious this could be.
The talk is about impeaching him? Forget that, arrest them and send them away for treason for deliberatively planning to harm the country.

[NightWatcher]

6. given that Obamacare is off the table, how do you get the pukes back to the table?

When are they going to take a vote?

What do they want (BESIDES OBAMACARE)?

Is Obama ready to do it by himself?

[Wounded Bear]

9. "What they want" is immaterial....

If you grant them what they want, they'll just shift to "wanting" something else.

Really, it's all just grandstanding to appeal to their base.

Besides, there's no "table." It's not time to negotiate, it's time to vote.

[Mister Ed]

53. Maybe what they want is just to damage or destroy the government.

They've been living, sleeping, and breathing this "government is the problem" mantra for a generation or two. Inside the neocon bubble, I think a lot of them have come to believe their own bullshit.

So: destroy the government, and hey! Problem solved!

[yuiyoshida]

7. I am sorry but... I would be giddy just watching a bunch of

Republicans perp walked away in Chains and handcuffs... Seriously.\

[Bjorn Against]

10. Is there any chance of a court order to raise the debt ceiling?

The 14th Amendment does prohibit them from challenging the debt so they are in open violation of the Constitution, is there any chance of emergency intervention by the courts ordering a raise in the debt ceiling?

[Agnosticsherbet]

13. No. Like it or not, the House has the power to fund or not to fund from the Constitution...

Now, the President could use the 14th to raise the debt limit, but would then be taken directly to the SCOTUS by the House. It would then be left to the Supreme Court to decide whether the Debt limit law is Constitutional. If they find it Constitutional, I suspect they would decide that the 14th does not apply. They may, in that case, determine it is unconstitutional and then strike down the debt limit law. I suspect that would happen over a matter of days.

The executive branch may have standing to take the debt limit law to the Supreme Court and seek to get them to declare that Unconstitutional.

Short of a declaration that the law is unconstitutional, Congress could continue with this impasse until a new Congress is sworn in in 2015, though I suspect the Federal Government would have collapsed by that time.

Most federal employees can not go for long without pay, and I suspect by November we will see many of them looking for other jobs if they aren't doing so now.

The US military is receiving their base pay. Other pay and allowances given to the military, such as housing allowance for military personal, incentive pay for military physicians, combat pay for anyone in a warzone is not being paid. The commissary where many shop, military gas stations, and other facilities on bases are all closed causing considerable hardship. They, however, are the lucky ones since they are getting some money.

After the 17th, when the US government officially defaults on its debts, we re likely to see massive increases in interest rates for borrowing if we can get a lone. The US Dollar is still the reserve currency because of its relative stability. A lot of governments, including China, set on big piles of it. As of the 17th, it will increasingly be worth less and less and inflation here in the US will probably rise very fast.

[Bjorn Against]

14. They have the power to fund or not fund, but they do not have the power to challenge debts

The debt ceiling is not about funding, it is about paying back the debts for things that have already been funded. It seems that the Congress would be in direct violation of the 14th Amendment if they refused to raise the debt ceiling.

[Agnosticsherbet]

17. The Constituiton gives Congress the sole power to raise funds. No one else an do it.

Whether those debts are already incurred is irrelevant. The debt limit law has been in affect since 1939 and never successfully challenged.

III. History and Significance of the Debt Limit
Upon enactment of the Second Liberty Bond Act of 1917, Congress began the practice of imposing limits on specific categories of debt. As a recent Congressional Research Service report recounts, in 1939 Congress eliminated the separate limits and created an aggregate limit covering nearly all public debt.

Short of going to the Supreme Court, that law is the law of the land and Congress is acting within its Constitutional authority.

As per Jay Carney on October 3, President Obama will not invoke the 14th because he doesn't believe that act is constitutional.

Obama Will Not Unilaterally Raise Debt Limit
“We do not believe that the 14th amendment provides that authority to the president,” the White House press secretary, Jay Carney, said on Thursday. The president, he added, “completely” agrees with his advisers’ legal reasoning.

Business insider has a story titled "Obama Does Not Rule Out Taking Action On The Debt Ceiling By Himself." They base that on a question they asked in which he doesn't say he won't rule it out.

Here's the key exchange:

Q: But if they don't, if they get up to this deadline and they are not willing to pass this clean debt ceiling that you're asking them to do, would you be willing to take other action to prevent default?

THE PRESIDENT: I don't expect to get there. There were at least some quotes yesterday that Speaker Boehner is willing to make sure that we don't default. And just as is true with the government shutdown, there are enough votes in the House of Representatives to make sure that the government reopens today. And I'm pretty willing to bet that there are enough votes in the House of Representatives right now to make sure that the United States doesn't end up being a deadbeat. The only thing that's preventing that from happening is Speaker Boehner calling the vote.

I read their story, and at no time does President Obama say "everything is on the table and we may invoke the 14th," so that appears to be a bullshit story by Business Insider.

To recap:
Only Congress, and I mean the House, can raise funds, which includes the borrowing of funds to pay debt.

The Executive Branch feels invoking the 14th amendment is unconstitutional. This is one piece of the Constitution they are loathe to attempt to violate.

Finally, even if they successfully challenge the debt limit law and it was found unconstitutional, the government would still be shut down, as that law only covers borrowing money to pay our debts, not incurring new debts or finding new funds to pay people.

[Bjorn Against]

19. The debt limit law was never challenged because it was not abused prior to recently

In the past raising the debt limit was a routine thing, it was not unconstitutional because the debts were always paid. It is not unconstitutional for the Congress to raise the debt ceiling, but it is unconstitutional for them to refuse to raise it if doing so would prevent us from paying our debts. The 14th Amendment should not need to be invoked by Obama, the 14th Amendment already applies to Congress but they seem to be willing to act in violation of what the Constitution demands of them.

[Agnosticsherbet]

20. So far, even the President disagrees with your statements. (see my earlier post)

The only real statement from the executive branch states that, "“We do not believe that the 14th amendment provides that authority to the president,” the White House press secretary, Jay Carney, said on Thursday. The president, he added, “completely” agrees with his advisers’ legal reasoning." Unless he challenges that by invoking the 14th and then argues before the Supreme Court, it remains Constitutional and the law of the land.

As far as I can tell, only the President has standing to even take it to court.

At this point, unless Boehner channels his inner Cowardly Lion and gets some "noive", we are gong to default on our debts.

And what really sucks is that the government will remain closed.

[Bjorn Against]

23. What part of my post does the President disagree with?

Please note that the only reference I made to Obama invoking the 14th was when I said he should not need to invoke it, the 14th Amendment already applies to Congress and they are bound by it. Are you suggesting that the President believes Congress is not bound by the 14th Amendment?

[Agnosticsherbet]

24. The President's spokesman has said that legal advice says tht would be unconstitutional

and Obama agrees with that.

(See my link.)

Unless legal advice changes, we go over the cliff led by the idiot new right tea party brigade.

[Bjorn Against]

26. And I never said otherwise, I merely said that Congress is already bound by the 14th Amendment

I am pretty certain that the President would agree that the Congress is already bound by the 14th and he does not need to invoke it for it to be in effect.

[Agnosticsherbet]

30. Unless someone takes that to the Supreme Court and get a ruliing...

it is irrelevant. That is the sad state we now have ourselves in.

It is sort of a strange irony that the party that wants to run government like a business violates the basic business rule of paying your debts.

[freshwest]

45. Their constituents do not consider it to be *their* debts. They're representing these people:

Tea Party radicalism is misunderstood: Meet the “Newest Right”

Our sense of the force currently paralyzing the government is full of misconceptions -- including what to call it

http://www.salon.com/2013/10/06/tea_party_radicalism_is_misunderstood_meet_the_newest_right/

It's well worth the read and strong warning to all of us.

[jeff47]

44. Obama has to act as if there is no option.

If Obama lets the Republicans know they will suffer no real harm, the Republicans will demagogue right through the debt limit.

So for now, Obama has to let them think it's a real problem.

[dkf]

60. Why wouldn't the founders have assumed that we would cut spending so that we could fund the debt?

Not increasing the debt limit doesn't mean an automatic default. It means we could default if congress decides not to cut spending leaving enough to pay our debts.

[Bjorn Against]

61. These debts will incur because of spending that has already happened

There is no way to get spending cuts jammed through rapidly enough to avoid hitting the debt ceiling. It is not even possible, but even if it were possible it would be an extremely bad idea to cut huge amounts of spending with such a short window of time to debate it. We hit the debt ceiling in less than two weeks and the GOP has not even told us which cuts they are going to demand yet.

[dkf]

62. They might have thought we would plan better.

Would they have anticipated a never ending constantly increasing federal debt?

[Bjorn Against]

63. I don't know what they thought our nation's finances would be like more than 200 years in the future

You don't know what the founders would have thought of today's debt either, they had no way of even comprehending the issue because they lived in a completely different time period with a much different economy.

No matter what the founders would think however that is not the point, the point is the Constitution clearly states that we are required to pay our debts. The Constitution does not say that we can ignore payments because a bunch of teabaggers don't like the debt.

[dkf]

65. We havent passed a budget yet.

This is supposed to be where they cut spending for the next fiscal year to enable debt payments.

[Bjorn Against]

66. Or they could raise taxes on millionaires, why not suggest that instead?

We have had too many spending cuts in all the wrong areas, it is time for the rich to pay their fair share. Although first we need to end the shutdown, time to pass the clean resolution now and then raise taxes on the rich after that is done.

[dkf]

67. Exactly true also. The lack of a budget enables all that.

[jeff47]

42. There's a few other options.

1) Just ignore the debt limit. What are they gonna do, impeach? Never get a conviction in the Senate.

2) $1 Trillion coin - Existing law allows the Treasury to mint a platinum coin in any denomination. So mint a $1 Trillion coin, and deposit it in the Federal Reserve. When the debt limit is increased, withdraw and melt down the coin to avoid the worst of the inflationary effects. Some have made comments about the Fed not accepting it, but they really have no legal basis to reject it.

3) Congress has passed two contradictory laws. One says "Spend this much", and the other says "Don't borrow more than this". Can't follow the first without breaking the second, and vice-versa. When this has happened in the past, the Executive let Congress know which law it would enforce, and asked Congress to "clarify" the conflicting laws.

Now, the White House can't get behind any of these plans at this point - the Republicans would demagogue right past the debt limit if they knew Obama would shield them from the damage. But there are options.

[LiberalLoner]

11. I noticed last week they were talking it up on Morning Schmoe. It looks like

They are going to do this.

[Swede Atlanta]

15. I wish the President would classify them as domestic terrorists and...

have them arrested and sent to Guantanamo.

The Constitution protects them against arrest when they are acting in their elected capacity but since they aren't doing anything I suggest the Constitution does not protect them from arrest during inaction.

Let them smell the rich ocean breezes of Cuba and wish they were back home. Blast them with noise all night so they don't get any sleep. Make them crawl like animals to the feeding troughs.

Only then will they begin to humble themselves.

[morningfog]

38. I hope that wasn't posted in seriousness.

[Thinkingabout]

16. They continue to try and convince us the president or Reid is responsible but for those

Who keeps up with what is going on with Congress we know it is the GOP, TP and Dictator wannabe Cruz is responsible for the shutdown.

[lunasun]

51. You would be surprised how many people I already hear say ......it's Obama's fault for the shhutdown

there is a lot of low info types who do not keep up with what is going on with Congress and listen to crap for current news

[moriah]

22. Does defaulting actually violate that clause?

I mean, it'd be great if it was interpreted that way -- but I'm not sure.

Section 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.

Does allowing a default mean that they are saying they don't believe the debt is valid? I could see them arguing not -- that they believe the debts are valid, that they just don't want to pay them.

[lostincalifornia]

33. The U.S. cannot default on its debt, and that is the grounds that will be used.

[moriah]

35. I could wish that were true.... I really do....

... but if that were codified law, I would hope it would have been mentioned by now. Otherwise why would the S&P have downgraded our credit rating in 2011, if there was no legal way we were allowed to default?

I saw on Wiki that there are debates over how that is interpreted, but not a lot of case law.

I know the original purpose of that amendment was the Confederate states not wanting to have to pay for the cost of the war, saying it wasn't valid debt. Not that they see it as valid, legally entered into debt, but that they refuse to let us pay it.

[lostincalifornia]

37. we will see. The point is that money has already been allocated and spent by Congress. Raising the

debt limit is essentially a formality

whether it is coded in law or not, that money has already been spent. It was allocated by Congress who are now saying they will not honor that obligation. I don't think that will cut it, and if it gets to the Supreme Court it will be most interesting if their view is that the U.S. can default or not, because that is the real question

[freshwest]

50. Part of the Tenther Movement is that the states are not responsible for federal debt.

[4bucksagallon]

25. I don't believe they dare go that far.... As a matter of fact "if"........

Social Security checks stop going out this will end abruptly. How are those T'Baggers going to keep up their payments and recharge their taxpayer subsidized motor scooters without "hep from the Gubernment"....... Talk is cheap but like the Vietnam conflict it was easier to cheer for others to die in a war than to go to war. Which of course the Republicans never will do.

[Politicub]

27. I'm starting to think they will

They are so craven and seditious that they're willing to destroy the country.

And they are going to laugh and drink while doing it.

[4bucksagallon]

31. Nope they haven't got the nads for that...........never had never will. They will cave.

Declare victory on Fox Snooze, and all the RWNJ media will say they won.

[lostincalifornia]

32. Actually they do want to destroy the country.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

48. Some just miss that orgasmic victory rush that only a tailhook landing/crotchdance can provide.

[tofuandbeer]

28. +1

[lordsummerisle]

29. The system sucks

If this were England and something like this happened, would not Parliament be dissolved and new elections held? Seems like a better system to me...

[New Orleans Strong]

34. Today's NYT

Has anyone read the piece by Sheryl Gay Stolberg and Mike McIntire on the front page of today's NY Times? Didn't hear it mentioned on any of the Sunday shows that I happened to see today... 'Course I did watch the Saints - Curiouser and curiouser. This has been planned for months and the cast of characters includes Ed "Cover those Statue Breasts!" Meese.

[QuestForSense]

36. That was John "Cover those Statute Breasts" Ashcroft.

Meese was Mr. Iran Contra Coverup.

[New Orleans Strong]

75. A la Rick Perry -

Oops! Thanks QuestForSense. I think my brain is blocking the memory of him to protect itself - especially after watching him sing that dreadful "Eagle Soaring" or something song. Good catch - and I sure appreciate it.

[RobinA]

72. I Was Surprised

I thought Meese was long gone or at least hobbling around his condo in Florida with a walker. I had no idea he was still live and dangerous.

[sorefeet]

39. Where are those so called

checks and balances I have heard so much about, that are supposed to protect the people against something like this. Can a handful of right wing idiots, actually take the country down???
Why are we in foreign countries fighting, when the enemy is right here in our own back yard?

[Faryn Balyncd]

40. The GOP has become a party of crazies, crooks, and deadbeats.

Lincoln, TR, Ike would vomit. (Heck, so would Hoover, Goldwater & Nixon).


None of them could possibly fit in with todays's Republicans. Goldwater became persona non grata with the GOP while still alive because of his positions on gay rights and gays in the military and abortion. Nixon proposed then began the EPA by executive order (later ratified by both houses of Congress).

[gopiscrap]

41. fucking assholes

the entire gop should be labeled as a domestic terrorist organization

[AAO]

43. US Code, Title 18 Chapter 115. Time for about 40 frog-marches to Gitmo.

18 USC § 2384 - Seditious conspiracy

If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.

[freshwest]

64. The error in expecting help from that, ignores the meaning of the word 'force.'

When that was written it was done by physical force, or force of arms. They are not using that.

I'm not saying their intent is any different from the treason of the Confederacy. In fact it is a mirror of their actions from top to bottom, save the use of arms.

Now if they get emboldend in the chaos that will occur with default, they might use arms and then the armed forces of the USA that are loyal will be forced to use all means to shut them down and end their scheme for a while.

It simply isn't there in the terms addressed in the law cited. They have been planning this a very long time.

[abelenkpe]

46. So

basically the same party that lied us into a costly war of choice is now about to lie us into a costly default of choice?

Yay.

[mckara]

47. TREASON!

I agree completely!

[Spitfire of ATJ]

49. Imagine the fun if we use the part where we deny them the right to vote based on rebellion.

[B Calm]

52. The Obama Care angle wasn't working in their favor?

[lastlib]

54. They are crazy enough to do it!

Rabid dogs are eventually put down. I hope the same applies to Republicans.

[Jack Rabbit]

55. Amendment 14, Section 4:

The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.

I'm not sure any of that means the President can unilaterally increase the debt ceiling, although David Addington, if he's consistant, might think so. David Addington was Dick Cheney's counsel in the OVP while Cheney usurped the office, and he believed the President could do pretty much anything he wanted without Congress getting in his way. I believe David Addington was a shyster.

As most you know, I'm no big fan of presidential power, so I am inclined to believe it does not. Somebody may have a different opinion.

[Historic NY]

57. Let it go and the goons will start kneecapping the pukes.

Watch them panic when they see the Dems do nothing. I think they want to make the 14th and Obama as an over-reach they could use for impeachment.

[MyshkinCommaPrince]

68. How are other world powers reacting to this?

Maybe a coalition of nations will demand that we get our act together. Could the UN gang up on us, to preserve the world economy? How would the RW Koch sons of Birchers react to having that RW fantasy fulfilled?

The Republicans seem to think they are actually defending the Constitution, by doing things like this. They have a slightly different view of what that idea means than we do. It's a very, very ugly mess.

[Kablooie]

73. The Constitution says the validity of the debt shall not be questioned.

They don't question the validity.
They just say they won't allow it to be paid.

Nothing in the Constitution about that.

I guess they assumed that if you accept the validity of the debt you automatically accept the responsibility to pay it.
They didn't foresee dishonorable immoral imbeciles taking over the government.

[Turbineguy]

76. They do this.

They want you to be certain that they are idiots and therefore you needn't worry.