General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsAnyone want to try and defend the President on the TPP?
Anyone?
Anyone want to deny that in pushing the TPP down our throats that he is supporting corporations over people?
The proof is in the putting, and the President has put the full power of his administration behind this monstrosity.
It's unconscionable and indefensible.
Feel free to try.
Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)Just wanted to be first.
michello
(132 posts)the reason that I hardly post here.
Sickening..
we can do it
(12,189 posts)PB
Katashi_itto
(10,175 posts)Last edited Thu Nov 14, 2013, 05:07 PM - Edit history (1)
Although TPP is indefensible.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)There's less and less room here for progressives and criticism. When they start with the clinton push I will leave or hibernate for a year. The Democratic party doesn't represent me so much anymore.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)If Hillary is the nominee,
I will find something else to keep me Occupied.
[font color=firebrick size=3][center]SOLIDARITY with America's Working Class & Poor!
The RICH already have enough representation.
[/font]
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)Hotler
(11,425 posts)I hardly post here anymore.
michello
(132 posts)Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)QC
(26,371 posts)NoOneMan
(4,795 posts)Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)I'm just mocking the typical responses to Cali.
NoOneMan
(4,795 posts)AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)...but mock her for doing so?
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)RC
(25,592 posts)So what is your point? Attacking the messenger, instead of trying to show otherwise?
bvar22
(39,909 posts)Cali was one of the most vocal and consistent SUPPORTERS of the Obama Administration during the first 3 years.
She was the Up Front Flag Bearer of the "Give this guy a CHANCE" and "Look at the Mess he has to clean up" contingent at DU.
I don't recall what particular betrayal was the Straw that Broke the Camel's Back for Cali,
but I remember that the epiphany was particularly painful for her.
Attack her with your worthless Ad Hominems if you must (says more about YOU than Cali),
but I have found her to be one of the most honest, consistent, and forthright members at DU.
Raksha
(7,167 posts)I started getting disenchanted with Obama during his first weeks in office, and it's been downhill ever since. I found Cali's posts really irritating because she was one of the loudest "Give the guy a CHANCE" cheerleaders.
Don't know what happened exactly to change that, but it's obvious that something did.
KoKo
(84,711 posts)Dr. Strange
(25,921 posts)Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)nt
Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)I will take that as a 'yes'.
Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)nt
Rex
(65,616 posts)nt.
Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)This is a great subthread.
Rex
(65,616 posts)nt.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Maybe try a [font size=5]bigger font.[/font]
Now I'm just going to sit back and watch people get mad at you some more.
Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)I'm still trying to figure out if some of the replies to your post are sarcastic or not, well played sir.
LWolf
(46,179 posts)She supported him in '08. She supported him in '12. And, on the occasion that there is something positive to say, she says it.
But yelling and attacking the messenger is sure a powerful distraction from the point.
ProSense
(116,464 posts)His entire administration should be impeached before they do permanent damage to the country. Anyone trying to defend Obama on this is clown apologist in denial. Where are they?
Oh, I heard the TPP is dead: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024028843
We, the "Moonbat Left" should be celebrating.
Power!
Response to ProSense (Reply #2)
Post removed
ProSense
(116,464 posts)Lame.
cali
(114,904 posts)corporate sell out.
"I want people to oppose the President's corporate sell out."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024031329#post2
Be happy!
chimpymustgo
(12,774 posts)Please be careful.
LuvNewcastle
(16,846 posts)There was nothing wrong with that post.
JEB
(4,748 posts)Nobody will actually defend TPP. They just attack those asking questions.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)Does anyone have a copy of the alert and jury decision?
Please post it here.
Has anyone else noticed that most of the really biased &absurd jury decisions seem to happen during Working Hours?
There was nothing wrong with Cali's response to this personal attack post.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.
ALERTER'S COMMENTS:
"Or just keep on trucking with your PROpaganda. "
JURY RESULTS
A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Thu Nov 14, 2013, 09:26 AM, and voted 4-2 to HIDE IT.
Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT and said: Personal attack. I'm so sick of this tired, completely unsubstantiated attack against ProSense.
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)The serial alerters abuse the system to silence debate.
Whisp
(24,096 posts)But like a broken clock, it does get it right once in a while.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)are frivolous or abuse. Its about a 50/50 chance on the jury, so about 45% of the time the jury gets it wrong. What kind of system is good, when it has a 45% failure rate?
Whisp
(24,096 posts)I think there are more people using the system for personal jabs and agendas, groups vs. groups, than for the original expected purpose of fairness and peace and love all over the world.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)Alerting on name-calling, personal attacks, rw trolling and the like. What it has evolved to is a means of silencing opponents. Cali's post was fine, but a serial alerter with a personal agenda abused the system to silence Cali from the thread. That appears to be the case about 90% of the time...and about half of those get upheld.
RC
(25,592 posts)That was a bullshit decision by the willfully blind.
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)"I want people to oppose the President"
that attempt has become all too obvious, too many times, in an all too predictable time table.
mzmolly
(50,996 posts)more supportive of your views?
http://www.ronpaul.com/2010-04-25/obama-is-a-corporatist/
http://www.ronpaul.com/misc/discuss/
Wilms
(26,795 posts)Thread subject and stuff.
mzmolly
(50,996 posts)bullshit, issue at this point which is why I asked to see any actual agreement before lamenting that Obama needs defending.
Wilms
(26,795 posts)That should work out well.
Thanks.
mzmolly
(50,996 posts)before freaking out.
Wilms
(26,795 posts)Looking forward to you kicking and recing this thread.
The 151 Dems who signed on to the letter opposing Fast Track for the TPP
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024040850
mzmolly
(50,996 posts)until it's too late.
Congress created the fast track authority in the Trade Act of 1974, § 151-154 (19 U.S.C. § 2191-2194). The fast track authority created under the Act was set to expire in 1980 but was extended for 8 years in a 1979 act[1] and was renewed again in 1988 until 1993 to accommodate negotiation of the Uruguay Round conducted within the framework of the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade (GATT),[2] and was again extended to 16 April 1994,[3][4][5] a day after the Uruguay Round concluded in the Marrakech Agreement transforming the GATT into the World Trade Organization (WTO). Pursuant to that grant of authority, Congress then enacted implementing legislation for the United States-Israel Free Trade Area, the United States-Canada Free Trade Agreement, the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA), and the Uruguay Round Agreements Act (URAA). Fast track languished during the late 1990s because of the opposition of House Republicans.[6].
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_track_(trade)
That said, I consider myself a bit of a protectionist. Obama never shared my position on trade, sans his stated stance on so called fair trade.
Wilms
(26,795 posts)Nope.
From your link...
This will be reviewed as intensely as the Patriot Act.
MH1
(17,600 posts)Sorry, that just made me laugh. Out of fairness, let me explain why:
Regardless how one feels about TPP, there is zero info in the OP about what it is, what it does, and what is right or wrong it. I'm well into the thread and still have found zero actual info about TPP. To be fair, I might have missed it while I was scrolling through the cute thread-jack on the first reply, and the jury whining, and other meaningless drivel.
I actually clicked on this thread looking for what the latest talking points each way might be. Contrary to what some here seem to believe, trade agreements can have some positive outcomes ... unfortunately the positive tends to be outweighed by the negatives. But if one wants to find intellectual discussion of those aspects and what might be potential solutions, DU, or at least this thread, is clearly not the place for it. All we see here is "TPP is bad - oppose it, or I will tell you what an awful waste of carbon you are! so there!" I just don't see how that contributes to actually killing the deal or resolving the problems with it. Thus, my hilarity at seeing someone reference actually trying to do something about it, as if posting here as any influence on that at all.
Wilms
(26,795 posts)You said it: "unfortunately the positive tends to be outweighed by the negatives". I'll bet that's the case.
You can look up the leaked document, however dated, to see some detail.
Meanwhile...
The 151 Dems who signed on to the letter opposing Fast Track for the TPP
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024040850
Oh. The "hilarity"!
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Guess I was wrong!
mzmolly
(50,996 posts)wrong doing, before one could oppose anything.
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)here you go:
http://www.wikileaks.org/tpp/
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)uponit7771
(90,347 posts)Wilms
(26,795 posts)Got anything else?
Reminds me of a neighbor ranting about "ObamaPhones". Yeah. That bad.
LondonReign2
(5,213 posts)Obama phones!!!
Wilms
(26,795 posts)"If there is no struggle, there is no progress."
Pardon the progressives around here.
mzmolly
(50,996 posts)an agreement before lamenting about it? I will enjoy it, thanks.
Wilms
(26,795 posts)They seem to be "wanting information", too!
The 151 Dems who signed on to the letter opposing Fast Track for the TPP
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024040850
starroute
(12,977 posts)Not 100% up to date but pretty close.
mzmolly
(50,996 posts)the most?
Scuba
(53,475 posts)Huh?
mzmolly
(50,996 posts)Wikileaks appears to be unaware of youtube.
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)to base an opinion on? Because the rest of this thread is basically just you going "what agreement? what's in it? I dunno what that is!" to avoid saying anything concrete.
BlueJazz
(25,348 posts)...., I have no idea why ANY caring citizen would want the TPP to become law.
I like Obama but the Man sometimes puzzles the hell out of me.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)Yea well some of us wouldn't mind having a beer with Bush either as long as he has no chance of being president again.
BlueJazz
(25,348 posts)When he backed down on the tax breaks for the rich, I was pissed enough to demand my vote back....and more.
I try to not get down on anybody, either in my personal life of other situations but with this political climate, I feel
like I'm on some sort of Bi-Polar ride.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)Obama to Harry Belafonte:
" When are you and Cornel West going to cut me some slack?"
Belafonte to Obama:
"What makes you think we haven't?"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=433x600580
BlueJazz
(25,348 posts)Raksha
(7,167 posts)Re: Obama to Harry Belafonte:
" When are you and Cornel West going to cut me some slack?"
Belafonte to Obama:
"What makes you think we haven't?"
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)djean111
(14,255 posts)So far, all I see is sarcasm and belittlement. Of those who do not want this TPP.
Nothing, of course, about the actual leaked information concerning the TPP.
I guess those Congresspersons who are objecting to the fast track thing never loved Obama, either. Even the Dems.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)Post "F the Clinton's" and see what happens.
DefenseLawyer
(11,101 posts)Why do you hate America?
Drale
(7,932 posts)I can get 40 pairs from the buy on the corner for a nickle! MERICA!!!!
seveneyes
(4,631 posts)The details of the TPP that are being withheld from us is also double plus ungood.
Laelth
(32,017 posts)I will, however, take a stab at defending the President, here.
Here's what I can say:
I like second term Barack Obama a lot better than first term Barack Obama. Now that he's "settled into the job," so to speak, and now that he's freed from worrying about his re-election, he has become a better President. Take Syria, for example. From what I can tell, he was under serious pressure to invade Syria for several years. Our Western European allies wanted it. They're almost completely dependent on natural gas from Russia, and they don't like that. They wanted a pipeline trough Syria to the Mediterranean to bring natural gas from northern Iraq just to ease the pressure of Russia's monopoly. Despite this intense pressure, the President delayed, and when the matter came to a crisis, he managed to keep us out of war. That was impressive, but it seems to be his MO in regards to actions he does not want to take. He delays, and then waits for the right moment to blow up the whole idea.
That's what I am hoping for with the TPP. He may not actually like it, but he's under intense pressure to do it from both our oligarchs and from powerful members of the Party that he leads. Perhaps he's keeping his options open, saying the right things to our oligarchs and to the party faithful who want the TPP, but then quietly gumming up the works behind the scenes. I recall that he was recently scheduled to meet in Asia regarding the TPP, but, somehow, he found an excuse not to go (it may have been the Syria crisis). In any event, I suspect (when I am feeling generous) that the President may, indeed, oppose the TPP. He may simply be delaying and waiting for the right moment to blow up the negotiations and take it off the table, as he did with plans to invade Syria.
That's as much as I can do on this. Of course, if he ends up signing the TPP in something close to its present form, I'll be furious, and I will regret having given him the benefit of the doubt, but, at this moment in time, I am willing to wait and see how this plays out. That said, I encourage all of us to keep our eyes on this and to agitate--i.e. give the President cover in the event that he sees an opportunity to back out.
-Laelth
scheming daemons
(25,487 posts)L0oniX
(31,493 posts)EXPOSE THEM TO THE PUBLIC! Is he for us or against us? Who does he work for? Who is he supposed to represent? For that matter what is the Democratic party suppose to represent?
I don't know why I even bother to give a shit anymore.
Laelth
(32,017 posts)But what would happen if he did?
He'd split the Party. He'd alienate big donors. He'd hurt Democrats running for office up and down the ticket--from dog catcher to our next candidate for President. He is, after all, the leader of the Party, and, I must say, he has been excellent in that role.
People have different personalities, and the President is no exception. His style is to hide what he thinks and to work behind the scenes to insure 1) that most people are happy with him and like him, 2) that he doesn't hurt the Democratic Party, 3) that policy he supports moves forward and is acted upon, and 4) that policy he rejects never comes to fruition. All the while (for category #4) he listens carefully to those who support the policy and treats them respectfully (to insure #1 and #2), but then he delays, gums up the works, speaks softly on the subject, and waits for the right opportunity to blow up the ideas and proposals upon which he does not want to act. He's good at this. I respect and admire it. He's a good politician.
Now, whether he's actually in favor of the core principles of the TPP, I have no idea. Nor does anyone else. The President holds his cards very close to his chest, but the fact that the TPP has been repeatedly delayed and obstructed gives me some hope that the President actually opposes it, and is dealing with it in a way consistent with other policy proposals that he did not like--such as invading Syria.
For what that's worth.
-Laelth
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)What I am suggesting is that the President may be standing with the 99% in his own way. As I said above, I will be furious if he signs the TPP in its present form, but he may be simply protecting the Party by offering tepid support while working behind the scenes to blow it up. That does appear to be his MO in regards to policy that he does not like.
-Laelth
tblue
(16,350 posts)but a lot of people think that too, giving him every excuse and rationalizing everything he does that flies in the face of what we desperately want our president to do.
But I don't know how could I possibly credit him for something I don't know he's doing, something he's intentionally preventing me from knowing.
Working in secret to undermine bad policy while promoting it, or remaining neutral, in public is not leadership. It takes a confident leader, and great courage, IMHO, to call something out publicly, take a stand and own it. As added benefit, he could win the public over too, which could make make his job infinitely easier.
Laelth
(32,017 posts)I have no idea what the President is really thinking. That said, I don't think we will ever get the kind of bold and confrontational leadership you describe from this President.
It's just not his style (and if I had to combat the "angry black man" stereotype all my life, I suspect my style would be similar).
ancianita
(36,081 posts)you about his leadership approach to the TPP, and how he's not forthcoming about his opinion of it.
FredStembottom
(2,928 posts)Your take on 1st term Obama vs. 2nd term Obama matches my own.
However, to steal from Thom Hartman, whichever party exposes the levers and who's pulling them when it comes to this seriously un-democratic stuff will be elevated to permanent dominance.
The 'puglicans just might do it and along with it bring all their loony, evil baggage.
This is a natural thing for our Democrats to do and would dove-tail nicely with trad. Dem values.
Why. Don't. They. Do. It???
The one word answer is: corruption.
Laelth
(32,017 posts)She's not afraid to fight back.
At this point, however, after watching him for five years, I am coming to the conclusion that Barack Obama fights behind the scenes, rather than in public, and he simply does not let the public know what he's thinking and doing. This is very frustrating for those of us who are interested and want to know what's going on, but what can we do? This may simply be the President's leadership style. It's not going to change at this point.
-Laelth
Coolest Ranger
(2,034 posts)It seems everything that is proposed. The naysayers jump on him like a ton of bricks. Then when the outcome is the opposite of what they expect I see no apologies from the naysayers who scurry back to their hiding places.
paulkienitz
(1,296 posts)There have been other cases where his administration has started to do something heinous, but then it somehow ended up self-sabotaging... it's really hard to tell whether he actually deserves any credit or not. Perhaps he's a machiavellian behind-the-scenes manipulator and doesn't want credit. Or perhaps we've been giving him the benefit of the doubt for things that were actually done by others in nonelected positions. We may never know.
RC
(25,592 posts)Putin stepped in with a workable diplomatic solution. We the US, never even tried diplomacy.
The President is also on record for fast tracking the TTP.
I liked Obama a lot better when he was campaigning the first time. Not so much after that, ever. His campaigning does not compute with his Presidentin'.
Laelth
(32,017 posts)Our allies were pressuring him to go to war--Cameron, in particular. When Cameron was sabotaged by Labour in the UK, he punted and left Obama holding the ball. Obama, for his part, then turned the matter over to Congress and forced the Republican (who must oppose everything Obama does) to vote against war. It was brilliant! Putin had nothing to do with it, imo.
The administration has requested fast-track authority for the TPP, but that does not mean that Obama supports it. He's wily, and he holds his cards close to his chest. The United States has been dragging its feet on the TPP, and I take that as a good sign.
That said, I have no idea what the President's true feelings are on the TPP. Nor does anyone else ecxept, perhaps, the First Lady.
-Laelth
RC
(25,592 posts)You may have no idea on Obama's position, but it is the Obama Administration that is doing the negotiations. Why is his Administration doing the negotiations, if Obama is not for it?
Try Googling that also. Obama TTP https://www.google.com/#q=obama+tpp
Raksha
(7,167 posts)That's why it's important NOT to give Obama credit where he doesn't deserve it, and not to buy into the "11-dimensional chess" argument that some appear to be trying to push here. My memory isn't that bad, on the Syria issue especially. I was terrified of another Mideast war and I paid close attention to every development at that time.
I remember very well how Obama and Kerry were pushing for bombing Syria, before there was any credible information on who was actually responsible for the poison gas attack. The credit for averting war goes to overwhelming public opposition, and Putin offering Obama a fig leaf at the last minute. Not only did the US never try diplomacy, it wasn't even MENTIONED as an option. That was one of the things that made me most suspicious of Obama's motives.
Armstead
(47,803 posts)If President Obama has the conflicted feelings you say, then the answer for him is pretty simple.
He can open up the process, open a window on it, shine a light on it and let the public in on the details of the negotiations and proposals.
If that were done, there would at least be an actual debate about it. And we the people would have an effect on the outcome.
Laelth
(32,017 posts)That's the problem. This President holds his cards very close to his chest. That's irritating to those of us who want transparency and open discussion, but that's just what he does.
Why he does that is a topic I tackled in post #49, above.
-Laelth
Armstead
(47,803 posts)and I'm from Massachusetts so am very happy she's my sen.
We need more like her and the other liberal Democrats who actually deal with reality.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)apologies.
He waited until he saw!
Whisp
(24,096 posts)Laelth
(32,017 posts)I just hope I am right about this.
-Laelth
Doctor_J
(36,392 posts)like he did on Syria. But this is a business deal, not a war, so I fear he will go corporate like he did on HC.
TBF
(32,067 posts)and he is to be applauded for that.
Ultimately POTUS works for the global elite and as long as we have capitalism in this country this is going to be the types of things we see. I am opposed to TPP (at least what I've seen) as it has the potential to take away a lot of US jobs (potentially more than NAFTA) and I also don't like the privacy provisions. I would like the Internet to remain open - as many know I am a bit of a dreamer.
uponit7771
(90,347 posts)scheming daemons
(25,487 posts)Outrage over actions that the President has not yet undertaken.
Based on leaks from 2011 that may or may not represent what it looks like now.
Remember that time Obama defended DOMA? Cut social security? Started a war in Syria? Appointed Larry Summers to the fed?
Yeah. Me neither. But DU was CONVINCED they were all done deals.
Laelth
(32,017 posts)It's just about impossible to know where he stands on a whole host of issues. That, of course, is very frustrating to those of us who pay attention and want to know what's going on.
That said, your list of things that President Obama has not done is quite impressive and worthy of commendation.
-Laelth
TBF
(32,067 posts)the comment "no one said anything".
That said there is speaking out and there are inflammatory headlines to attract attention.
pampango
(24,692 posts)It's important to speak out about what we want to see in TPP and what we don't like - to hold his 'feet to the fire'.
OTOH, claiming that we are being sold out based on incomplete knowledge of an unfinished agreement is over the top.
bvar22
(39,909 posts)We should reserve or comments of being "Sold Out" for the failure to even attempt to "Re-negotiate NAFTA" or "make EFCA the Law of the Land."
pampango
(24,692 posts)IF (again a big IF) strong, enforceable labor and environmental standards are included in TPP, NAFTA weakness on those issues would be moot.
I agree about EFCA - though obviously that would never actually get through the House.
Generic Other
(28,979 posts)mean I will be violating TPP if I try.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)best reply in the thread.
Sid
pampango
(24,692 posts)I will balance that against against the parts of the agreement that I don't like.
IF it has more good than bad, I will support it even if it is far from perfect.
treestar
(82,383 posts)but no one on DU ever gets into details. It's one big conclusion that we are sort of to be bullied into. No questions allowed.
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)I will just wait and see what happens, assuming anything actually is presented, and assuming that the thing even gets finalized. I'd post more, but I see that you can no longer reply in the thread, so that would be unfair.
TBF
(32,067 posts)and I fear that it will be worse than NAFTA.
As far as defending the president, this is something that is being pushed by the global elite. Ultimately that is who he works for so he will try to pass it.
I don't know what people expect with a system like capitalism.
MoonRiver
(36,926 posts)All I can say is he's a lot better than Mitt.
DanM
(341 posts)Because I sure don't see it in your post.
QC
(26,371 posts)You know, like always.
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)Octafish
(55,745 posts)It's bound to pump us up...eventually.
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)ieoeja
(9,748 posts)Would you unilaterally put restrictive tariffs on Chinese made goods? Or would you attempt negotiations?
Okay, scratch the second half of that. You have made your opposition to the current negotiations very clear. Opposition to diplomacy is an odd stance to see at DU. But there we have it.
That leaves us with the first idea. But if you check your history you will discover that many, many wars were started over that very reason. So probably not a good idea.
China is pretty much a rogue agent in the global marketplace. They routinely violate intellectual property rights. They artificially keep their currency devalued. I'm sure the TPP won't be what you want. But as it is right now, there are ZERO rules inhibiting the unfair trade relationship with China.
Maybe we ought to do something about that?
RainDog
(28,784 posts)How about apple, etc. don't relocate teenagers for six months out of the year to work in sweat shops so apple shareholders can make a lot of money?
Why not ask shareholders how much slavery they're willing to support for cheap electronics?
Why not ask consumers the same?
Or, better yet, why not make it economically painful to outsource labor to a dictatorship and, instead, have those jobs done in the U.S.?
...and pay workers a living wage, instead of the exploitation that currently exists?
ieoeja
(9,748 posts)We are merely "expecting" people to do the right thing. They are not. The TPP, if written correctly (and I'm sure it won't), could force them to do the right thing. But you oppose that.
Your way is not currently working. Do you expect that to change without intervention?
Sheepshank
(12,504 posts)I've tried to reword my heading so it doesn't sound rude. I didn't do a very good job. But what I'm trying to say that "asking" business owners and shareholders to step up and do what is right for America seems like a "tried and failed" initiative.
zipplewrath
(16,646 posts)Just be careful how you ask.
Response to cali (Original post)
Nye Bevan This message was self-deleted by its author.
Response to cali (Original post)
rivegauche This message was self-deleted by its author.
shireen
(8,333 posts)i've been busy trying to keep my head above water and not followed this story. What are the ramifications to us and why?
KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)pampango
(24,692 posts)The odds are very much against a republican House seemingly controlled by a tea party minority ever giving Obama fast track authority. They hate Obama and polls show they largely oppose trade and immigration.
MuseRider
(34,111 posts)You are one of the reasons I ever come here at all.
Thank you for all the work you have done to bring the tiny tidbits of info to us as it came out.
I say that even if I disagree with you from time to time. At least you make your case without the usual, "You suck!" "No YOU suck!"
The Traveler
(5,632 posts)What we know about the TPP, as some of the "defenders" have pointed out, is based on leaked material that is quite potentially out of date.
But that does not constitute an effective defense of this "trade agreement" or the manner in which the Administration has conducted the negotiations. Rather, that observation illustrates the very core of the problem.
What we do know (due to those aforementioned leaks) is that negotiations have included proposals which have a direct impact on the internal law of the signatory nations. More significantly, these proposals include enforcement requirements and procedures which have the potential to significantly redefine "due process" in those signatory nations, including ours. "Investor rights" are elevated in legal priority over local environmental regulation, for example, and that in itself is a stunning shift in law.
At this point, some of those proposals may (or may not) be included in the most recent drafts of the agreement. We really don't know. And that takes us back to the very core of the problem.
An agreement of this scope affects over 300,000,000 stake holders in this country. But at most a thousand or so understand the current state of the negotiations and access to information about it is as tightly controlled as the most dear of military secrets. "Fast track" adoption insures that 300,000,000 stake holders will be signed up to this new arrangement without even having a chance to understand their new obligations.
In what sense can we call that kind of process "democratic"? The President's motivations may well be as pure as freshly falling snow but the manner in which this is being done is entirely inappropriate. Those 300,000,000 stake holders have, at least in theory, a right to see this proposal, and their reactions to be heard. We have an election coming up ... this should be a well discussed issue. Instead, we are dependent on scraps of information intermittently leaked to us.
That the people's considerations are being so forcibly excluded from these deliberations IS the problem.
Trav
Armstead
(47,803 posts)L0oniX
(31,493 posts)Generic Other
(28,979 posts)We have no voice.
DonCoquixote
(13,616 posts)Not here, the TPP is a bad idea.
Whisp
(24,096 posts)wheel even! Wheels are kind of coarse and the wooden ones splinter.
mzmolly
(50,996 posts)There has been no agreement.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Rather than broad generalizations.
We are offered nothing but foregone conclusions on this subject. No back-up is ever there.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)a Cato Institute dude, Bill Watson and Lori Wallach of Public citizen.
Lori really lays out the horrors of what it will do to real free trade and our domestic policy and the Cato dude seems to not realize there is nothing that is free trade in it like he claims.
Why the White House is sanctioning this actually scares me and I'd like to know who is behind the cattle prod to the President.
KoKo
(84,711 posts)was for it and that's why she was given the job after bowing out on his First Term Appointments because of bad press. She was given job second term to help push TPP Through and to implement it.
I haven't heard much more about Pritzger since then when Greg Palast and others were all over her appointment.
I imagine the Clintons and Global/Wall Street/Pharma and Tech Companies along with Hollywood are involved. It mostly benefits all of them.
Cleita
(75,480 posts)wondering, who in his inner circle, is telling him this is a good idea and why isn't he getting some outside and opposing opinions about this? If it is in fact Mrs. Pritzger, she is in fact a very bad penny and the community of real journalist needs to find out if this is so and publish it loudly and clearly. Also, how did the Clintons get so inside this administration with their half-baked DLC agenda?
woo me with science
(32,139 posts)This is what happens when corporations seize control of governments.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)Whisp
(24,096 posts)too excited, I can understand, cali.
Fantastic Anarchist
(7,309 posts)great white snark
(2,646 posts)Considering nobody knows the final draft, and if I were addressing someone without an agenda, I'd say wait and see.
LWolf
(46,179 posts)I see your DU name was well chosen.
jazzimov
(1,456 posts)First of all, the leaked section of the TPP shows that NOTHING has been decided. There is a lot of proposals but there is also opposition to every clause I saw. It is an expansion of the TPSEP treaty that has existed successfully between Brunei, Singapore, New Zealand and Chile successfully since 2005.
PDO is trying to reinstate "fast-tracking" for trade agreements which has expired. There are 2 major parts to fast-tracking:
1. No filibuster. I have seen DUers support this many times. Debate is limited - straight up or down vote with a simple majority needed to pass.
2. No amendments. This is necessary for negotiating with other countries. Why would another country negotiate with an ambassador if Congress has the last word and can change everything that has has been negotiated in good faith? It also eliminates the possibility of "poison pill" amendments.
But it looks like the possibility of fast-tracking is dead. So Congress can amend the treaty any way they want. But even if they passed fast tracking, they could still vote against the treaty and reject it if they didn't like it. Any way you look at it, there is no way that the President can push it down our throats as you say in your OP.
Economists LOVE free trade agreements, although I personally don't like them for reasons that I won't go into here. But I will admit that protective tariffs can be dangerous and result in push-back from the foreign body which can hurt the US middle- and lower- classes.
I also disagree with some of the proposals in the TPP. Many of them I like. But those proposals are not supporting corporations over people as you again state in your OP.
So this outrage is clearly poorly researched and obviously designed to denigrate PBO, as evidenced in your OP by the words "defend the President" in your title.
bobGandolf
(871 posts)HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)Its being negotiated in secret, with about 500 corporate lobbyists writing the bill. No input from labor and enviromental groups and the like. Its been described as "NAFTA on steroids". Its one of Obamas pet projects.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)It's hard to say "you shouldn't be upset about it" if no one is willing to say what exactly the deal entails.
solarhydrocan
(551 posts)mzmolly
(50,996 posts)meme.
Savannahmann
(3,891 posts)I am now preparing for the fight in the Senate. We can keep the treaty from going into effect if we can prevent a 2/3rd Majority, and that is where our focus should be my friend.
There is no defense.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)Coincidence?
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)Number23
(24,544 posts)and the headache caused by screaming at yet another pre-disaster?
L0oniX
(31,493 posts)Skip Intro
(19,768 posts)Discussion of the issue is out of their reach, beyond their capabilities.
It is akin to asking a child if he can spell a difficult word, and instead of trying, or learning, he instead says, "you're ugly."
That's what you're dealing with, as far as those insulting you - name-calling children who can't fathom an actual discussion.
idwiyo
(5,113 posts)BelgianMadCow
(5,379 posts)The protectionist measures in place, these trade barriers, are special-interest handouts to big businesses that have good lobbying efforts in Washington, D.C. The purpose of a free trade agreement is to overcome an inherent political difficulty in getting rid of those barriers. We know we want to get rid of the barriers, but its hard to counteract these special interests because they have a lot of influence in Congress. So, the idea of a reciprocal free trade agreement, where the U.S. lowers its barriers and, in exchange, other countries lower theirs, is a way to gaintoreally, to gain special-interest support for the free trade agreement that U.S. industries that benefit from export access abroad will lobby. They have a concentrated benefit in the agreement. And so, they will counteract the special interests that are supporting the existing barriers. The end result, ideally, is open markets at home and abroad. And this is a very good outcome.
I mainly think his reasoning is laughable. It may make sense if you just forget history, like NAFTA. Luckily, in the debate he is countered by Lori Wallach of Public Citzen.
Thank you cali for a thread pointing out that there IS no defense worthy of the name.
mattclearing
(10,091 posts)2naSalit
(86,647 posts)there is no defending it or anyone who claims that it is beneficial to anyone other than the corporate overlords.
Wouldn't have a clue where to start defending something so horrendous.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)what do you have (as an American consumer) to trade among Brunei, Chile, New Zealand, and Singapore ?
Mexico and Canada have now jumped on board and want a piece of the trade action in that area of the world. Are you saying that America shouldn't allow any of our American owned companies to sell goods to outside countries?
The 2005 Trans-Pacific Strategic Economic Partnership Agreement (TPSEP or P4) is a free trade agreement among Brunei, Chile, New Zealand, and Singapore. It aims to further liberalise the economies of the Asia-Pacific region.
Since 2010, negotiations have been taking place for the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP), a proposal for a significantly expanded version of TPSEP. The TPP is a proposed free trade agreement under negotiation by (as of August 2013) Australia, Brunei, Chile, Canada, Japan, Malaysia, Mexico, New Zealand, Peru, Singapore, the United States, and Vietnam. From Wikipedia
Lodestar
(2,388 posts)I think we need to create 'counter-policy' working groups or think tanks created BY THE PEOPLE to
put together alternative policies, laws and plans for our future rather than beating our heads against the wall or putting all
our energies into doing battle with government/corporate corruption, stagnation, etc.
Kind of like a 'work around' when the plumbing gets stopped up. It could be done right here in Democratic Underground.