I don't think Zimmerman really intended to kill Trayvon.

[IdaBriggs]

Last edited Fri Nov 22, 2013, 03:46 PM - Edit history (1)

I don't think he was acting like a crazy predator or in a serial killer wanna be fashion.

I think he wanted to be one of the good guys. I think prior to that night he did things that would help him "serve and protect" the people in his community. He took college classes about law enforcement, martial arts classes to be in decent shape/able to defend himself and possibly help others, and learned how to use a powerful tool (gun) that he was told over and over was important, and really not that big of a deal because of the Constitution. He volunteered in his community as a mentor and community watch person. He *cared* about people. (His story might be a different one if he joined the fire department; just saying.)

Like I said, I think he wanted to be a good guy.

Then one night, after he and his wife had been having troubles for a while, he and his wife had a fight. He probably felt depressed, and like a failure because I don't doubt he loved his wife at one point, and yes, I think he felt bad that he couldn't "fix" whatever was going wrong between them. I think he was angry and depressed and frustrated, and then he saw Trayvon.

I don't think "something snapped." I don't think he "hunted him down like a cold blooded killer." I think he wanted to be a good guy, and in his mind, Trayvon was a bad kid who was going to "get away with something" because the last batch had, and I don't think Zimmerman, in his depression at that moment believed the system was working to protect people the way it was supposed to.

I think he wanted to be a hero, and I don't think he really believed anyone was going to die. I think he thought he would "detain" the young criminal and then things would get better.

I believe his gun was out (not in his back pocket) when he approached Trayvon, and I think that decision - not intended to kill, but to intimidate - was where a really bad day went to complete hell not just for him, but also for Trayvon and his family.

I think after the initial shock of the killing he truly thought he had done a good deed (because I think Trayvon did try to defend himself against the "strange lunatic with a gun&quot . And I think he received some coaching on what to say/was smart enough not to say "my gun was already out" because Trayvon *had* to be a bad guy if he was dead, right? Because good people don't kill other good people, and God cannot be that cruel....

But Trayvon wasn't a bad kid - he was scared of the stranger "stalking him" and the two didn't know each other. It was a bad day, and yes, I think the whole thing was Zimmerman's fault for having a gun, most likely out, in the first place. If he'd only been armed with a cell phone, Trayvon would still be alive and the misunderstanding of who these two people WERE - a community volunteer and a kid coming home from the store - would not have turned deadly.

I think during the trial Zimmerman really believed his own narrative - "It was self defense," - and only a fool would want to spend his life in jail. I think he focused on the crisis at hand, and thanks to a good attorney/bad prosecution, he didn't end up in jail for life.

But now, he is broken. He is not a fool, and he knows what really happened. I believe he is haunted by the mistakes of that night (as he should be). He knows Trayvon was a good kid who was scared of him, and he knows the whole thing is his fault.

He killed an innocent teenager. That isn't how good guys behave. He made a mistake in judgment, and he is now completely screwed. I think he is reliving the nightmare over and over again, and either one of two things will happen:

The first and most likely is that it will kill him - suicide or death by cop. Karma is a powerful thing, and the killing of an innocent, even if it is started with good intentions/was an accident, will destroy him.

We are watching that now.

The second option is Redemption. This would involve telling the truth, and him spending his life working to atone for what he did. He would need to admit his culpability, explain his wrong, apologize over and over again, and pray for forgiveness, all while working to honor the life he took by making his mean something by educating others to prevent them from making the same mistakes he did.

The second is a harder road, and frankly, unlikely. The brutal and painful honesty required in acknowledging mistakes made and poor judgment exhibited involves acknowledging self deception as well as vulnerability and fear. Pride feeds karma; to make a humble request for redemption is near impossible when the wheel of fate is crushing you.

I feel sorry for George Zimmerman. I feel sorrier for Trayvon Martin and his family. I will keep watching the story, not because I think Zimmerman is a wanna be serial killer, but because he is a fellow human being, and I am curious which path he will take - will he choose pride and death, haunted to the end by the blood of an innocent, or will he choose truth and redemption, and a life of atonement?

My opinion. Your mileage may vary.

[cali]

1. what does that even mean, "wanted to be the good guy"?

That's like saying bush wanted to be "the good guy" when he invaded Iraq. Whee Ha!

In my opinion, both were playing at being cowboys. Dangerous, stupid, callous and much more.

You can't reasonably conclude by the things you list as evidence, that he "cared about people".

You've simply invented a story and back story that fulfill you're prior assumptions and world view.

[IdaBriggs]

5. I do not believe most people see themselves as villains.

In our own heads, we are the heroes of our own stories.

Even when we do horrible and crappy things, we rarely cackle like a Disney cartoon and celebrate our triumph over the "annoying young hero!"

I believe that people who want to be police officers for the most part want to help people by protecting good people from bad people. I think wanting to help others is one of the "good guy" traits. And I think he is a normal human being, and yes, I think that includes "caring about others in his life."

I also think bad judgment (Bush is a good example!) can make the best of intentions go horribly wrong (which is what I think happened in this story).

There are a lot of posts about Zimmerman being a wanna be serial killer, etc. and this is my opinion on the matter.

You are right - this is the story I have put together from what I have read, and it reflects my world view of karma, disaster and redemption.

Welcome to my head - it is a scary place! Lol!

[JI7]

6. i don't see myself as a fucking hero

[IdaBriggs]

8. There are exceptions to every rule.

Perhaps you are one of them?

[JI7]

12. i would say those who view themselves as heroes the way Zimmerman does

are the fucked up ones and the ones who are dangerous.

i find people like that to be creepy.

[brush]

83. Even after the trial and all of zimmerman's . . .

pathological personality traits coming to light in his multiple, gun-fueled aggressions towards his wife, his father-in-law and his girlfriend, you still believe he wanted to be a good guy?

He's got a Jeckel-and-Hyde personality and when the Hyde part of him comes out he can't control his anger and aggression.

We've just seen it play out most recently with his girlfriend — the getting the gun from its case and pointing it in his girlfriends face, c'mon. You have to know that's what happened in the Trayvon Martin killing.

That's what the screaming on the tape was about. Martin was screaming because the aggressive, angry part of zimmerman's character came out that night as he confronted Trayvon with his brandished gun.

I believe zimmerman pulled the trigger figuring he knew the stand-your-ground law well enough that he could claim he was the victim of Martin (he made up a story about Martin head bashing him 20-30 times on concrete and punching him 35-45 times in the face After all, there was no one around to eyewitness the shooting. He could say anything). Well anyone with any sense (obviously not that jury) would figure anyome head bashed on concrete 20-30 times would be at least severely concussed, if not out cold or dead.

Most likely he self-inflicted his wounds. Remember, the medical examiner testified in court that he only need band-aids for treatment. Head bashed 20-30 time my ass.

Turns out his calculations were right. The cops were incompetent enough that they bought his story. And we all know what happened with the poor prosecution and the even poorer judgment of the jury.

They were all just racist enough to believe, or say they believed, zimmerman's lies.

No, I disagree with you. zimmerman is not a good guy. He had multiple aggressive run-ins with people before the Martin incident. Two of them with cops. Don't you know this? You haven't read about those incidents?

I repeat, he not a good guy. He's an aggressive, gun-loving psychopath who has shown that several times since the trial.

Unfortunately for him all of these post-trial incidents of his temper and aggression can't be suppressed and not admitted like his previous pre-trial incidents weren't admitted in his trial.

[spin]

94. Most true heroes do not view themselves as a "HERO." ...

They often say, "I just did what any average person would." A hero just happens to be in the wrong place at the right time and he/she does the "right" thing.

If you go around looking for a chance to do something heroic then you are actually looking for trouble. If you go looking for trouble, IT will find YOU. You may not like the consequences.

[hfojvt]

97. many men want to be

[cali]

9. I get that, and I agree, but so what?

Ida, you're kinda throwing meaningless cliches around here.

there are people that bomb planned parenthood clinics and kill abortion doctors because they believe that they're doing "the right thing". If anything, that make it more horrifying.

And that's just one example.

[IdaBriggs]

14. Agreed about the "more horrible."

As I said, he is living an interesting story. I expect it to end tragically for him.

But I still see him as a human being - deeply flawed, who has made mistakes, but a human being.

Malicious intentions (Bush) are always worse to me than a serious of stupid decisions. I see him in this category.

I just got tired of people forgetting how easily they could become guilty of tragic stupidity. ""There but for the mercy of fate..." Or however you want to say it.

Yes, it is a cliche. And yes, these are my thoughts on the matter:

Guilty. Now self-destructive. Possibly redeemable in the eyes of the world, but unless he tells the truth ("confesses his sins&quot , screwed.

Totally cliche. Sigh.

[cali]

16. yes. he's a human being. so are all the other billions of human beings on the planet

I guess his story is interesting, although personally I don't find it compelling. How do you know bush's intentions were malicious or that Zimmerman's were good? I think bush thought his intentions were "good". You think they were malicious.

Really? You actually think most people here (and here is who you're lecturing to) could be guilty of the kind of "tragic stupidity", Zimmerman perpetrated?

And what do you mean by "confess his sins"? Seems like you think he was guilty of nothing but trying to do the right thing and messing it up.

The evidence demonstrates it was much worse than that.

[IdaBriggs]

30. "Confess his sin" of being responsible for the killing of Trayvon.

Last edited Fri Nov 22, 2013, 03:49 PM - Edit history (1)

My theory is that the gun was out. I could be wrong. Again, I don't think he was hunting - I think he was going for intimidation, which I think most people with guns think will work.

Flash the gun, you are in charge (or so goes the logic).

Reality: having a gun means you are willing to use it to KILL PEOPLE.

I don't honestly believe most people examine the repercussions of that, even if it is "real self defense" (which this didn't need to be - as I said, I believe they didn't understand who they were - community volunteer and kid walking home from the store, and the guy with the gun shouldn't have allowed the situation to escalate to where it did).

I will be busy for a while, and won't be able to respond (plus don't intend to respond to those who got the exact opposite of what I said out of what I wrote - sigh - "apologist" seriously?).

I always try to look for a bigger meaning. My worldview.

[bettyellen]

136. GZ didn't "allow a situation", his bias and anger issues created the entire "situation" out of thin

air. For fucks sake, stop pretending her had any business stalking that kid. It is ridiculous.

[louis-t]

60. Most people DON'T see themselves as villains.

Even when they're holding the hoses on black people, even when they're cheering as their chosen politicians restrict voting for minorities, even when they make up stories about a black president.......

[indepat]

127. Think your analysis is plausible and quite possible right on

[Vattel]

15. Pot calling kettle black.

"You've simply invented a story and back story that fulfill you're prior assumptions and world view."

Exactly what you do in your own mind to come to the conclusion that Zimmerman acted in a "dangerous, stupid, callous" way.

[cali]

17. Uh no. A resound fucking no.

We have evidence that he acted in a dangerous, stupid and callous way. As in the police telling him not to follow Trayvon.

[Vattel]

22. And was following Martin callous? Or did it express concern for his neighbors?

You don't even know that Zimmerman followed Martin after the dispatcher said it was unnecessary to do so.

[hfojvt]

106. actually they told him

"we don't NEED you to do that"

and they said that after Zimmie was already following him.

Have you ever been at something like, say, a Thanksgiving dinner, and started to help clean up afterwards to have the hostess tell you "you don't need to do that." But you keep doing it anyway, because you think it is the right thing to do.

Customers do that with me at work all the time. I start stacking chairs and some of them will stack chairs too, and I always try to stop them, but often they do not listen.

What they do not realize, perhaps like Zimmerman, is that one of the reasons I do NOT want their help - because it does more harm than good. They stack the chairs wrong, requiring me to unstack them and restack them. People should not try to perform brain surgery, unless, like me, they have been to medical school.

[4 t 4]

149. "both were playing at being cowboys"

I am very sorry but I don't think Tr avon's parents would agree

[cali]

159. how would you know? I've seen nothing that indicates that they'd disagree.

[KG]

2. he was a deeply insecure spoiled brat little creep. his wife had dissed him earlier that that day

and he was determined to reassert his manhood to himself on the rest of the world.

he was a little piece of shit before that day, who is now an even bigger piece of shit since he knows got away with outright murder

zimmerman apologetics make DU suck.

[IdaBriggs]

7. I make no apologies for him. I feel sorry for him.

But as I said, I feel sorrier for Trayvon and his family.

I also just wrote an entire post focusing on the fact that Trayvon was a victim/the whole thing was Zimmerman's fault, so not really a "Zimmerman apologist."

[PDJane]

138. Well.........maybe.

I don't feel sorry for Zimmerman, except in a the sense that I would feel sorry for anyone caught in a web of their own making.

He was told not to follow Trayvon. He followed him, started a confrontation, and swore in court that he was the victim. I find that his actions since that night display a narcissistic, smug, egotistical and violent personality. He had that personality before he decided to follow Martin. Does he think he's a good guy? Probably. Does that change the facts? Nope.

Now, of course, he's displaying his disdain for women, especially those who don't behave like the doormat he needs. In fact, he is manipulative enough to claim a non-existent pregnancy to explain his girlfriend's need to 'get' him. Oh, yeah, right. Either the guy knows only violent sociopaths, or it's time for an intervention.

[JI7]

3. oh please, he doesn't feel bad about what happened to Trayvon at all

he has a history of getting violent going back before he killed Trayvon.

i think he is a worthless piece of shit .

[brush]

85. Agreed! Agreed! Agreed! nt

[OwnedByCats]

109. I don't know how anyone can really know that

when we're not inside his head. Oh sure, it may seem like he doesn't care - but if I've learned anything in my life, it's that people (especially men), don't always show how they feel. They put on an act. I suffer from depression, but if you saw me in real life, unless you and I were very close friends, you wouldn't know because I don't act depressed in front of the world. I joke around and have perfectly pleasant and normal conversations. If someone said I wasn't depressed because I'm not moping around telling everyone how much my life sucks, they'd be dead wrong. They'd only be right about me not acting depressed. Only those very close to me know the truth.

I've seen people eaten up so much by their own guilt that they completely fuck up their lives and sometimes their loved ones' lives. One bad decision turns into a whole series of them and not all will find redemption as the op explains. All too often, they simply self destruct eventually because they cannot or will not get help. Zimmerman very well could be acting out, making bad decisions out of guilt. He also could be an evil bastard who feels no guilt whatsoever. The point is, you don't know which it is with him and to think you do is short sighted.

He's guilty of killing Trayvon and I bet he knows it too. The problem now is he's not choosing the right path and I agree with the op, it will probably end badly for him. It seems to me the guy needs help or prison, or he'll end up in a casket. Time will tell which one happens.

[trumad]

4. Fuck George Zimmerman

And may he burn in hell.

[bluedeathray]

10. I appreciate your analysis, but

I believe GZ was reacting to getting his a$$ kicked.

Things could have happened a lot differently, if any of several choices were different.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

58. That's not analysis. It is free form speculation and creative writing

[Gormy Cuss]

119. +1 n/t

[raccoon]

11. Interesting theory, but I disagree. I think Zimmerman is a spoiled brat with

an enormous feeling of entitlement.

[madokie]

13. Get a grip

Quit apologizing for the murdering bastid

[OwnedByCats]

126. The OP is not

apologizing for him, good grief

[RBInMaine]

18. He is an EGOMANIACAL MANIPULATIVE LYING GUN NUT AND COP WANNABE ! That's what this BASTARD is !

This man molested his cousin. (She is on the record saying so.) He had run-ins with the cops years ago and domestic complaints years ago. He has GI JOE and COP fantasies and wants to look like a hero to compensate for what is really a poor self-image.
He has a history of domestic problems because he's a controller, liar, and manipulator. His LIES are endless.

He saw Trayvon and profiled him. I don't think he set off after him wanting to outright kill him, but he did want to catch a "burgler" in the act, get press coverage, and love from his neighbors. Simple as that. He had the gun out. He confronted Trayvon and tried to detain him. Trayvon went from flight to fight mode and stood HIS ground. A verbal confrontation, initiated by Zimmerman, escalated into a physical confrontation. When Trayvon was getting the best of this nasty little toad, he shot Trayvon with a gun already in his hand but which Trayvon didn't see because it was so dark.

THAT is what happened, and he LIED like crazy to the investigators just like he LIED like crazy on this latest incident which is obvious as you listen to the 911 calls. He is a LIAR, and MANIPULATOR, and he is DANGEROUS. He needs to be in psychotherapy, and needs to go to jail for a while too for this latest assault with a deadly weapon.

[brush]

90. Good Post. I agree with everything except the part . . .

about Trayvon besting him in the fight.

I think he chased Martin and confronted him with the gun already out. That's what the screaming on the tape was about. Martin was screaming because the aggressive, angry part of zimmerman's Jeckel-and-Hyde character came out that night.

I believe zimmerman pulled the trigger figuring he knew the stand-your-ground law well enough that he could claim he was the victim of Martin (he made up a story about Martin head bashing him 20-30 times on concrete and punching him 35-45 times in the face After all, there was no one around to eyewitness the shooting. He could say anything). Well anyone with any sense (obviously not that jury) would figure anyone head bashed on concrete 20-30 times would be at least severely concussed, if not out cold or dead.

Most likely he self-inflicted his wounds. Remember, the medical examiner testified in court that he only need band-aids for treatment. Head bashed 20-30 time my ass.

After that, as you wrote, he lied like crazy to the investigators — and is still lying like crazy to this day. That's who he is and how he operates. And so far he's always gotten away with it.

This time though he's going to jail. Too many post-trial violent, documented, gun-fueled incidents now that can't be "not admitted" by a complicit judge.

[RBInMaine]

131. The forensic evidence clearly shows Trayvon was above him. However, Zimmerman could not have

reached into his side holster, which was almost to his back as he described it himself, to take out his gun with Trayvon on him like that. Zimmerman confronted him with his gun in hand in a very dark area and then got more than he bargained for. He pursued him, confronted him, then Trayvon confronted him right back and bucked up on him to defend himself. Zimmerman greatly exaggerated his "pummeling", but the injuries and the witness testimony certainly show there was a fight. He would not have had time to stage that. Because Zimmerman instigated the whole thing by pursuing him, confronting him, and trying to detain him, and with his gun out and all his obvious lies, I think there was a strong manslaughter case.

[Captain Stern]

140. I think Zimmerman already had the gun out too.

If I remember correctly, Zimmerman's claim to self-defense was primarily that Martin saw the gun in the holster, and was reaching for it to kill him. He also claimed that at this time Martin was sitting on him, and banging his head into the sidewalk. I do think Martin was banging Zimmerman's head into the sidewalk. However, I don't think Martin could have been sitting on Zimmerman and banging his head into the sidewalk AND seen the gun in the holster. In order for Martin to see the gun, he would have almost been sitting on Zimmerman's knees.....that's hardly a position that puts you in full control of a guy's head.

I think Zimmerman already had the gun out, and made up the part about Martin seeing the gun in his holster. Just my opinion, and I can't prove it.

[hobbit709]

19. He wanted to do it.

Psychopaths are not redeemable. They won't stop until they are stopped. Just ask Ted Bundy.

[rbrnmw]

20. Oh Joy The Zimmy Apologists Are Back

[OwnedByCats]

129. I haven't seen anyone on this board

apologizing for Zimmerman, certainly not the OP. It's called conjecture.

[Buns_of_Fire]

21. Thank you for an alternative take on the whole mess.

I still think Zimmerman is scum, but we should all be willing to listen to other opinions.

[Motown_Johnny]

23. To use a racist term (sorry) I think the bastard was coon hunting.

He made a habit of driving around the neighborhood with a gun looking for people he consider suspicious. He had taken law classes to know when and how to use the stand your ground bullshit to avoid going to jail.

The fucker went out and killed an innocent person of color because that is what he had been trying to do for years.


P.S. Karma does not exist. It is superstitious nonsense. Look at all the terrible people who have great lives. Cheney, the Koch brothers etc. Then look at all the suffering innocent people in the world, billions of them. Karma is just a way of avoiding reality, much like the rest of your OP.

[Scuba]

24. That's pathetic.

[redgreenandblue]

25. Sorry to Godwin the thread, but the nazis thought they were the "good guys" too.

I bet pretty much all sociopathic murderers think they are a decent person doing the right thing.

[cali]

28. I was going to do the same thing.

[IdaBriggs]

52. Truth. Self deception is a powerful thing.

And that includes those who ignored the crimes of the Nazis, under the illusion they were helpless to fight against it (which is why we celebrate those individuals who found a way to save innocent lives during that terrible time).

[Vattel]

26. Why speculate about what happened?

I don't understand the need people seem to have to speculate about what happened and why that night. Maybe Zimmerman is a cold-blooded murderer. Maybe he was suddenly attacked by Martin and really did fear for his life. Maybe he had his gun out before the confrontation and maybe he didn't. He did express relief when a cop told him the whole confrontation was on videotape. That is a little evidence that his basic story is true. There is also some evidence that his basic story was false. Embrace your ignorance. We just don't know.

[msanthrope]

27. As a criminal defense attorney, I will tell you that I would want you as a juror.

Why? Because of your seeming inability to contemplate the true nature of people before you. Because of your ability to form a narrative favorable to the defendant that does not conform to the facts.

The problem with your analysis Ida, is that you are assuming that Zim himself is capable of the reflection that you have done for him, and that he wants to be 'better.'.

He does not. He isn't capable of it.....he sees the problem as 'other people.'

Murder One should have been the charge in the Trayvon Martin case.

[Brigid]

41. You wouldn't want me on the jury.

I would have held out for conviction. No excuse for shooting an unarmed kid. That's what GZ did; all the rest is just so much smoke and mirrors.

[IdaBriggs]

49. To be fair, I have been called "the Eternal Optimist."

I have also been called for jury duty in December - should I warn them that in addition to a soft heart, I may have a soft head?

Or if I go in chanting "Guilty, Guilty, GUILTY" will they catch the old Doonesbury reference, and know that I am a flaming Liberal?

[4 t 4]

150. yes, murder one- at the least! This is part of why I would Never want to be anywhere near the system

it is So Broken!

[nyquil_man]

29. A few things about the guy stick with me.

During one of the police interviews after the shooting, Detective Serino asked Zimmerman if it had ever occurred to him to try talking to Martin. "I'm George. I'm with the neighborhood watch. Is something wrong?" or words to that effect. Zimmerman said it hadn't.

In Zimmerman's own account, Martin approaches him and asks him if he's got a problem. Well, obviously Zimmerman does have a problem. Otherwise, why'd he call the police? But how does he respond? He says "I don't have a problem" and he reaches for his phone.

Now fast forward to this week. His girlfriend calls the cops on him. The police show up and are knocking on the door and on the windows. So what does he do? He calls 911. Why? He says he wants everybody to know the truth. When the dispatcher suggests that he could tell that to the cops who are at the house, he says he's got nothing to say to them.

He seems to have a real problem with personal interaction. When presented with the opportunity to look another person in the eye and talk, he retreats to forms of communication with which he's more comfortable, thus making the situations much worse.

[IdaBriggs]

50. I'd never thought of that - an undiagnosed social disorder?

Extremely perceptive. And scary.

[In_The_Wind]

36. Hello ~ Tylenol Extrastrengt

[img][/img]

[IdaBriggs]

53. Thank you, and welcome to DU.

I hope you like it here. Please note that even though pretty much every person here disagrees with my charitable analysis, they are generally speaking courteous about it. It makes me proud to be a member here, even when people think I am completely wrong.

Ah, the joy of having an opinion, and a friendly place to share it!

[JaneyVee]

32. From what I've read, he's been a bully douchebag his entire life.

[MoonRiver]

33. I respectfully disagree.

I believe he was a wannabe vigilante, with a secret desire to know what it was like to kill a human being. This desire may have been intense on the night he killed Trayvon due to his troubles with Shellie. Trayvon was in the wrong place at the wrong time. An angry man with a gun and a hunger to experience life and death power over another person crossed his path. The rest is history. I wish only the worse for Zimmerman. He is a killer, who I have no doubt will succumb to his dark urges again, unless locked away from society.

[Kahuna]

34. Nah... I think he loves guns and has an itchy trigger finger...

In other words, he couldn't wait for the opportunity to use it for its intended purpose.

[Captain Stern]

35. My guess as to what happened is along the lines of yours.

I think Zimmerman's story is true, for the most part, up until the actual confrontation. I think he already had his weapon drawn, and attempted to 'detain' Martin for the police. I think things got physical because Martin was trying to defend himself.

However, I accept that the only living person that really knows what happened that night is George Zimmerman. There isn't enough evidence for me to "know" what happened, so all I can do is guess.

[IdaBriggs]

55. I also believe that having his weapon drawn is what started the deadly conflict.

It just makes no sense that it would be "under him" and him able to retrieve it with Trayvon on top of him for no logical reason.

I cannot comprehend the pain Trayvon's parents are going through....they have been AMAZING.

[OwnedByCats]

125. The only thing that bothers me about that

scenario is if you were confronted by someone you knew had a gun who was attempting to detain you, would you fight or remain calm so as not to escalate things further? I know I would be still and quiet if the person had a gun, fists will never be able to compete with a firearm unless you're really crafty with a splash of good luck on the side.

However, I'm not Trayvon, who was a teenage boy after all, I'm a 40 year old woman with a bit more wisdom than a teenager. There is no doubt he was probably braver than I would have been, but it may have got him killed. On the other hand, maybe he fought because Zimmerman was hurting him in the process of attempting to detain him.

At the end of the day, I do believe whatever happened, Zimmerman was most to blame, if not completely culpable. He was the one who at the very least made most of the wrong decisions which ended with a tragedy that didn't need to happen. He's the one who decided to keep tabs, call the non-emergency number, followed him when told it wasn't needed and possibly was carrying the gun before any confrontation occurred, not having it concealed. At most I think Trayvon's only bad decision was not staying home after he arrived there, and what I mean by that is according to Rachel's testimony he was just outside his father's house before Zimmerman got close enough for the confrontation to begin, a little time goes by and then proceeds to get shot several houses away from where his father lived. Of course that doesn't exonerate Zimmerman at all, there were several things he could have done differently that would have prevented this and I'm in no way excusing his guilt.

Sadly we're never going to know exactly what occurred, all we can do is speculate. It's just a terrible shame it had to happen that way.

[Lars39]

37. A good guy would have offered him a ride.

[TBF]

48. Thank you. nt

[OwnedByCats]

130. A good guy would know that teens shouldn't get into cars with people

they don't know and even though they know their intentions are good, the teenager does not know this and you don't want to give them the impression that it's a good thing because this one time turned out ok.

However, he should have at least inquired and offered to call someone for him if needed. Or better yet, leave the kid in peace and head over to Target like he was supposed to.

[Brigid]

38. GZ shot and killed an unarmed kid.

As far as I'm concerned, that's all I need to know.

[Rex]

39. I do, from the moment he left his car.

He realized he could concoct some kind of story (like he did with his GF recently) that would let him get away with murder. I think he is nothing more than a filthy racist and a murderer.

[lame54]

40. He wanted to kill him before he met him...

a fantasy lived out

[KittyWampus]

45. In few words, your post comes closet to my understanding. This guy is ruled by his unconscious

and his filters are off.

[lame54]

46. Thanks...

I rarely get one right

[treestar]

62. Yes, in the abstract

He already had the idea. His "they always get away" comment really nails it for me. He wanted to save somebody in the neighborhood from some African American criminal and in his mind, he'd found one.

[NightWatcher]

42. He's a women-hitting, cop wannabe thug. I know his type

He's a punk. He doesn't want to be a "good guy". He wants to be a feared authority figure. I've seen dozens of examples of this kind of guy. I used to work in personnel for the Feds and tons of these guys passed my way. Some become cops, others get sent to the prison system to work as guards. Others fall further down the "cop spectrum" and can only get on as security guards. Georgie could only get on as a volunteer, self appointed neighborhood watch "captain".

[KittyWampus]

43. We have a conscious and unconscious mind. Consciously he may not have intended originally to kill

Consciously he may not have intended originally to kill

Unconsciously, he probably did. He probably wanted to strike out and hurt someone and he did.


We are not slaves to our Unconscious. It is what we feed it.

[MineralMan]

44. Well, I can't say that I agree with you on that at all.

My opinion. Yours differs from mine.

[TBF]

47. I think you are very naive. Granted folks are complicated -

and you may not have the experience of domestic abuse in your past like many of us do.

But this former altar boy was already on the radar for domestic abuse at 21, had already been arrested in another minor incident, and like other authority-loving types was seeking to be a police officer. How many average 20 year olds are patrolling their neighborhoods seeking to bring in thieves? They'll call on the cell phone to police if they see something odd, but they are not out pursuing like this.

This guy was an accident waiting to happen and unfortunately the nightmare is not yet over.

[Myrina]

51. And let me guess, your love could change him, right?

You sound very much like an abused spouse with a martyr syndrome.
Seek help and good luck to you.

[IdaBriggs]

59. Um, no. Happily married to a good man, and zero interest

in that type of rehabilitation work.

The man needs professional help. I am not equipped to provide it.

But very interesting take on the situation - we all bring our own personal experiences to the judging of others, don't we? I did go with the classic "tragic story, possible but unlikely redemption" which says a lot about my expectations of life.

Hmmm....

[kcr]

54. No, I don't think he wanted to be the good guy.

I think he was depraved and indifferent. A good person does not chase down and kill an unarmed person minding his own business. I don't agree. There is no reason to feel sorry for George Zimmerman.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

56. Cool story, bro

[arely staircase]

57. I disagree

Recent events have made it clear this is a man with serious anger/control issues and he likes to solve his problems with guns.

[HERVEPA]

61. Watcha' smoking Ida?

[IdaBriggs]

65. Eternal Optimist with a Compassion Kicker.

I just don't want to believe ANYONE is doomed to live a tragic story.

I'd like to believe even Zimmerman can be redeemed, if he tells the truth, and spends his life atoning for his crime.

Like I said, not likely to happen, but possible.

Sigh.

I'm an "outside the box thinker" -

[HERVEPA]

69. Sorry Ida, real worl doesn't work like that.

He's a sociiopathic bastard who needs to be put away for life.

[IdaBriggs]

77. I will keep watching the story.

I don't think we've reached the end of it yet.

It is a terrifying thought - just how bad it could get, if he continues down the path he is on.

[Baitball Blogger]

103. I think a couple of years living in a right-wing community will

help her get a reality adjustment.

[oldhippie]

63. I figured somebody wouldn't like this ....

I was not the alerter.

At Fri Nov 22, 2013, 11:03 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

I don't think Zimmerman really intended to kill Trayvon.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024074029

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

Post falls under otherwise inappropriate. Fuck George Zimmerman. He's no mythic Greek hero he's scum.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Nov 22, 2013, 11:13 AM, and the Jury voted 2-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: This alert is total bullshit. Not one damn thing wrong with the OP.
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT and said: While I truly like the poster, this fills in too much back story that isn't factual. Sorry.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: One person's well stated opinion. An opinion not supported by facts, in my opinion totally misguided, and with which I TOTALLY DISAGREE, but does not contain foul language, does not ridiculing anyone, and is not insensitive. I disagree strongly with this post but must support the poster's right to share.
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT and said: As bad as the Zimmerman apologists are, this is ten times worse. This is gross.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: No, it does not fall under "otherwise inappropriate." It falls under "I don't agree with it so I want it hidden." Cripes, this is a discussion board.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: Poster's opinion, as stated.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[treestar]

64. People like 2 and 4 just don't get it

5 does and points that out!

[dionysus]

68. what is your view of zimmerman's mindset during the incident, praytell?

[oldhippie]

81. I don't have a view of Zimmerman's mindset .....

.. as I have no way of looking into his mind at the time. Speculation at this point does not really interest me.

[IdaBriggs]

70. Oh, Wow! Thank you for sharing this - and I *LOVE* DU!!!

To the people who served on this jury (even #4), THANK YOU!!!



I am sharing an opinion that is being pretty much disagreed with, yet my right to share it with everyone here was just totally validated, even if folks think I am 100% wrong.



I love you all.



And to the person who alerted, I am sorry you were offended. May I recommend the "trash thread" feature?

DU ROCKS!!!!

[oldhippie]

88. For what it's worth ....

.... I was juror #5. While I may disagree with points in your post, and I disagree with you on many other issues, this IS a discussion board. You made your points in a well written and non-confrontational manner. That's how discussion is supposed to work. It just makes me mad when someone tries to hide worthy discussion because they don't like the opinion. It happens a lot around here.

I even tried not to be snarky for a change.

[IdaBriggs]

92. Well, I am glad you were on the jury, and I love what you wrote!

Thank you!!! I think you make DU a better place.

And also MUCH LOVE to Jurors #1, #5 and #6 --

And #2, whoever you are, thank you for saying you liked me. I understand you and #4 are trying to make sure DU doesn't suck (but I am way happy that the vote went the way it did!).

[OwnedByCats]

132. I think you are very right

Too many people just can't take an opposing opinion even just for the sake of conjecture and want it hidden. It's annoying to say the least.

The people here should know better to support censorship over an OP that simply states an opinion, or another side to an issue, which was done in a polite and articulate fashion for the sake of a little discussion and friendly debate, no matter how much they disagree with it's content.

[Captain Stern]

142. Whoever alerted on the OP should be ashamed of themselves.

The OP was a thorough, well written, thought out post. It wasn't insulting or confrontational. It was simply a statement of one person's honest opinion, without criticism of other people's opinions. We don't need less posts like this...we need more of them.

This has actually turned into the most civil discussion about the Zimmerman/Martin case that I've seen here. That's not a bad thing.

[IdaBriggs]

162. SMOOCH!!!

Thank you!

[asjr]

66. I do not feel Trayvon Martin

would have felt as you do. The atonement of which you speak would be a jail cell for at least 25 years.

[cliffordu]

67. Go talk to his wife.

See what kind of misunderstood hero wannabe he really is.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

73. nice phrase there ...

fucking wife. you could edit and just say wife.

[cliffordu]

74. Yeah, I thought of that.

But you ruined it. Just because you want me to change it, I wont.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

78. yeah, not surprised.

kind of glad you are leaving it out there now. saves people from having to click on the edit.

your boorishness on full display for all to see. bravo. kudos and well done ... man

[cliffordu]

80. LOL. When left with nothing, you never disappoint.

Right to the name calling.

OMFG!!! Did you mean 'man' as an INSULT, too???

OMFG!!! I'm CRUSHED, I say, CRUSHED!!!!

[IdaBriggs]

86. Hey you two - I'm the one busy offending DU at the moment!

Please play nice.

[cliffordu]

87. Sorry, kiddo -

Not trying to harsh your mellow......

[IdaBriggs]

91. You two are some of my favorite posters.

I know you were just being emphatic because of your passion for justice, and fury at the way Zimmerman appears to get away with domestic abuse, but would you do me a personal favor, and edit the offending post (which was some pretty clever phrasing, by the way) so it doesn't push the buttons of my other friend?

Please?

I think my original post is already irking people (and giving them an excuse to wax eloquent about the character of the topic of the thread), and I really would like to keep it from getting too personally offensive, if you would be willing to indulge me on this....?

(And if not, I understand, especially since I am irritating people with my "obviously wrong headed post!&quot

[cliffordu]

98. OK - Here's my beef:

I said nothing sexist, racist, against the terms of service or anything other than something "boorish".

If I had violated the rules - the real rules in this forum- I would have gladly deleted or changed the post. I've done it before.

Now:

The aggrieved party seems to think it's THEIR responsibility to correct ANYTHING that doesn't suit his/her fancy.

As I said, I was thinking about changing it until that screed by our friend.

But I'll have no truck with hall monitors of any stripe.

Their feelings are not my responsibility.

[IdaBriggs]

115. Sometimes we accidentally brush against scars other people wear.

I think my original post - which was not intended to do that - has done that for some people.

Although I have repeatedly said I believe Trayvon's death was Zimmerman's fault, several folk are having a knee-jerk reaction to anything that looks like acceptance of the death of a child, especially the perceived undervaluing of the life of a black child.

We have lost so many children to horrible actions of hatred - from little girls in churches, to the lynching of young boys displayed in open caskets - to me, the lack of justice for Trayvon is one of these instances.

And there may be people on this thread who decide I bring too many reminders of pain to read my writings in the future (or even am just too bone-headed stupid to pay attention to). But I hope the discussion can continue, because many of those people bring some amazing things to this community, and I would like to think I do, too.

I could be wrong - maybe Zimmerman went hunting. I don't think so, though - I think it was more "intending to intimidate" and then things went really, horribly wrong.

But I could be wrong.

This thread has over one hundred replies as of this point in time, and I think my (compassionate? naive? wrong?) perspective has pretty much gotten maybe two "well, maybe" luke-warm support replies.

My right to be "wrong" has been validated. I have not intended to hurt other people on DU. You were not intending to offend. We have both scraped open wounds. In my case, it is the entire thread, and honestly, I still stand beside it at this point in time. Yours is one word, easily fixable, typed by a clever person with a gift for double meaning, and a biting wit. I am going to do my best to show my respect to those who disagree with me by letting their comments stand so people can see where the divisions in perspective lie.

You are a proud person, and owe no one self-censorship. But it would be a kind thing to do in this case, since you were asked (albeit with a little more knee-jerk abrasiveness than normal). The person who asked is a good poster - search their threads in the Lounge - and everyone is entitled to a bad moment, right?

(See - Eternal Optimist! Lol! And I will drop it after this post, with respect to your decision. )

[cliffordu]

117. A couple things:

There is no double entendre in that post.

I dunno WHAT possible wounds I have scraped. I was cheated of that information. What if, when talking about Missuz Zimmermann, I'd said "Go ask her fucking husband."

Would the wound be scraped, still?


I will change it. I'll do it because you brought some sense of adult discourse to a nasty subthread.

But I still hope the peeps will read the edit.

[IdaBriggs]

163. Thank you.

That is a very nice compliment!

[cliffordu]

100. Yeah, probably.

Welcome to DU!

Wear a cup.....lol....

[Scootaloo]

71. I think a boy is dead because some asshole thought hewas entitled to kill said child

Had Zimmerman actually shown any remorse for doing so, you know what, I would agree. People fuck up. It's tragic, but it happens.

Zimmerman did not. he maintained his entitlement, and still does.

So you can feel sorry for him all you like. End of the day, he murdered a black child, patted himself on the back for a job well done, and went about his life.

[IdaBriggs]

75. I think his life is self-destructing from the incident, no matter how much denial

or self-justification he indulges in; unless one's soul is as black as a Cheney or a Bush, the blood of an innocent *will* haunt him.

I have never seen any sign of true remorse, and without it, I believe he is doomed.

[dionysus]

72. sorry to be rude, but that's a crock o' shit.

[Xyzse]

76. It may be possible that you're right.

I don't think he meant to kill initially either.
However, he is a wannabe cop emboldened by having a gun, looking for trouble. It doesn't change my view that he committed homicide, that is more manslaughter than anything else.

I am mostly done with this sordid story of his.

[Tikki]

79. Ya..NO….I know guys who brag that a gun is always available to them at an arms length.

Some of them have been prohibited from being in the presence of a weapon but have one within an arm's length anyway.

These are gun fanatics and dream of the moment they get to use their gun. Stand your ground law has
been interpreted in gun magazines, online and in conversation to these gun nuts over and over and you are right
about studying; he studied that intensely.

He did it, doesn't regret it and could do it again.
He was an ass gun nut before he murdered an innocent teen and he still is and with the spot light on him
we see it in full non-stop action.


Tikki
ps I wonder if he has a gun within arm's length as we type this?

[FloridaJudy]

82. With all due respect, that is complete garbage

You are talking about a man with a looooong history of acting out in ways that are not only illegal, but dangerous.

I'm sure he'd like to be thought of as a Good Guy. I'd like to win the Boston Marathon, be nominated for a Nobel in Medicine, and conduct the last movement of Beethoven's Ninth. But I'm a functional adult, and I realize that could only happen in my dreams or in an alternate universe.

Zimmerman is very likely to either be killed or die of natural causes before he grows up.

[Blue_Tires]

84. One tiny factor I'd add:

is that Zimmerman was almost certainly planning to join a police force after JuCo (already was friends socially with a few local cops)...

I'm pretty sure his "volunteer work" was a long, fruitless fishing expedition to nab a criminal in the act -- I think he was absolutely desperate to have that feather in his cap to: 1. Have some kind of tangible reward for all the weekends he wasted, and 2. Fast track any future police applications, along with showing he has an aptitude towards investigative work...

[gollygee]

89. I think he joined the neighborhood watch with the hope that he'd eventually be able to

kill someone.

[beemer27]

93. You probably got a lot of it right.

We will never know exactly what transpired that night. In Zimmerman's mind the facts are just a confused mess. He has modified the story to protect himself so often that he doesn't know what really happened. But you are right. Zimmerman did want to protect and serve, but would never have made the grade to be a "real" cop. Being part of the watch gave him a chance to do something, and prove to himself that he could do the job, but it was better to just be a volunteer. Things got out of hand, and he was in over his head before he knew it. He had not planned on killing anyone, it jut happened, and happened so fast that he could not stop it after it started. The kid that was supposed to be intimidated and wait for the police decided to get physical, and Zimmerman was not ready for it. When he found himself getting pounded with his back on the ground, he used the only tool that he had to stop it. He really did "fear for his life". The only problem is that the whole scene would not have happened had he waited for a real cop to handle it in the first place. Redemption is a matter that he will have to work out with his Maker. I feel sorrow for both families. This did not have to happen.

[Captain Stern]

118. I agree.

I think Zimmerman actually thought that he was catching one of the 'bad guys'. I think his goal was to 'detain' Martin until the police arrived. I think Martin fought him to defend himself (he had no idea Zimmerman was part of a neighborhood watch...he was just some creepy guy that was following him). I think that if Martin had wrested the gun away from Zimmerman and killed him, Martin would not have been found guilty of murder. In my opinion, Zimmerman realized his error and changed just enough of his story to be found not guilty. However, I think that he could have been found guilty of manslaughter if the prosecution had bothered to present any other possible version of the events other than the one Zimmerman gave.

That said, I can't prove any of the above because I wasn't there. It's just my best guess.

[tularetom]

95. If you were a chubby little twerp and all the girls laughed at you

You might very well fantasize about doing something heroic (like capturing bad guys) so women would admire you.

And not just women. All your neighbors would look up too you. All the cool guys who thought of you as a geek would finally accept you as one of the guys.

The police would look upon you as a valuable resource in keeping the peace in a troubled world.

Whether or not he intended to kill Martin is irrelevant. Once he was acquitted he thought all his fantasies would come true. He could finally get any girl he wanted and be looked at with respect by all those who had once scorned hi.

But it didn't work out that way. His wife and girlfriend still looked at him as a fat little fart. His neighbors failed to appreciate his heroism and things really never changed for him.

So he has to keep in the news to remind everybody what a big man he really is.

It won't end well for him.

[spin]

105. In my opinion the Zimmerman case should be discussed in every concealed weapons class. ...

The instructor should use Zimmerman as an example of why anyone who legally carries a concealed weapon should be aware that the last thing any rational person should ever want to do is to shoot another person even if he is entirely in the right.

While it is true that Zimmerman walked, had there been a better prosecution team or a different jury he could have easily ended up spending years in prison. He now owes a tremendous amount of money to his attorneys which he will never be able to repay. If someone recognizes him on the street or finds out where he is living it is possible that he could be attacked.

Many people speculate that Zimmerman had some serious mental issues before the encounter with Trayvon Martin. That may be true but I have rarely heard it mentioned that the shooting may have caused Zimmerman to develop serious psychological problems. Often police officers have to undergo a lengthy period of counseling after they are involved in a shooting incident.

By using Zimmerman as an example in a concealed carry class, the instructor should be able to convince his students that the only time they should consider using their weapon is when their life or health is at immediate risk because they are under attack from a person that has the capacity to seriously injure or kill them. The instructor should also be able to point out that you never go looking for trouble when you are legally carrying a handgun. A concealed weapons permit does not make you a cop and you should never be a vigilante.

I suspect that if Zimmerman had a chance to return to the rainy night he noticed Trayvon Martin in his hoodie, he would simply decide to call the police dispatcher to report a suspicious individual and would have went on his way in his truck.

[Hoyt]

133. Instead, they teach you how to shoot center mass, just like Zimmy, and what to say to police.

Any truly responsible instructor would get in front of students and say, "class dismissed, I'm not going to assist you in getting yourself killed, intimidating people, or playing judge, jury, jesus, and executioner."

[spin]

143. Much depends on the individual instructor but the instructors that I have known ...

do emphasize that you can end up in jail or bankrupt if you do something foolish while legally carrying. I do not know any concealed carry instructors who teach at gun shows so I don't know if they have enough time to properly cover this very important issue.

If I was teaching a class on concealed carry, I definitely would use Zimmerman as an example of why you should never go looking for trouble while legally carrying.

With your attitude I would suggest you avoid a career as a concealed weapons instructor and keep your day job.

[beemer27]

141. I agree 100+%

When I took my CCW class, the instructor spent more time telling us when we could NOT use force than when we could. He stressed many times during the course of the class that we were private citizens, and as such could not, and should not use force for ANYTHING other than protecting ourselves and our families. We could not use force to protect property, or to apprehend a bad guy. Only to protect ourselves and families. Many people would benefit from taking a CCW course. It would teach them what the law really says, and it would familiarize them with firearms terms. If they never touched a firearm again it would be a positive experience. It would give some basic firearms training to people who own firearms, and it would be an excellent source of facts to people who do not own firearms, and have no intention of obtaining one. After successfully passing this course, you will know what you are talking about, and people will respect your opinion much more when you speak on the subject if you have taken the course.
If Zimmerman had payed attention in a course as well taught as the one I attended, he would have acted differently. Our instructor hammered these facts into our heads, then he went over them again and again. Everyone in the course understood when, why, and where it was permissible to use force. There were no doubt in any ones mind. We knew, and that knowledge is still fresh after all these years.

[Hoyt]

145. Problem is, a lot of the toters don't care about anything but how quickly they can strap on a gun

or two and strut down the street to stand their ground against the "thugs and boogeymen" they conjure up in their minds. Those are the toters I have known.

[beemer27]

154. I too have seen these kind of idiots.

I wish that all of the CCW instructors were as strict as the one that I was fortunate to have. He made us understand just how serious carrying a firearm is, and taught us when it was permissible to use it, and more importantly, when it was NOT permissible to use it. I have seen some people with a CCW that were not taught these principles as well as our class was. Perhaps they did not pay attention, or perhaps their instructor was not as conscientious as ours was. No one passed our course without completely understanding when NOT to use deadly force.

[cynatnite]

96. I don't think it was premeditated...

I don't think it was accidental either.

Zimmerman has a violent temper that can be set off. His history proves that. He will kill again. I truly believe that.

[Vox Moi]

102. Zimmerman didn't give Martin any thought at all ...

He had already make up his mind about that fucking Punk.

George was all about his self-appointed mission to defend the neighborhood. He gave Trayvon no more consideration than an exterminator would give to a household pest.

[OregonBlue]

104. Isn't his father a retired judge. That tells me he knows the system inside and out. I think he is a

wannabe cop who manipulated the system. And he's still doing it. Can't agree with your hypothesis since we have absolutely no evidence to support that he is the least bit introspective. He seems to see everyone else as the problem and totally lacks empathy of any kind.

[HockeyMom]

111. Absolutely

[Hekate]

107. He's got a screw loose, in that he seems to walk in a fantasy where he is a beweaponed hero

Last edited Fri Nov 22, 2013, 06:12 PM - Edit history (1)

Look, I have a former in-law who is in love with sword-based martial arts, and he walks around life wearing his black studio outfit complete with split-toed sock/shoes (if they were socks I'd call them tabi, but they have a sole). But he's not allowed to wear his katana in public, and a good thing too, as the damn thing is sharper than a surgeon's scalpel. Fantasies like that are not compatible with consensus-reality-world.

Zimmerman's fantasy turned into a nightmare for everyone when he took to walking around with a loaded weapon and a self-appointed mission to "protect" his neighborhood/his territory from boogy-men real and imagined. According to the 911 dispatchers, all his boogy-men up to and including the time he murdered Trayvon were imaginary.

I look at him and see a scared little man. A very dangerous scared little man who puffs himself up by carrying lethal weapons and by bullying women and innocent passers-by who don't fit his world. He's not operating on the same plane as the rest of us, and whether he needs psychoanalysis or not is a moot question -- because the first thing you do with an abuser/criminal/psychopath is STOP THEM.

Maybe he'll gain insight while he's locked up for a good long time -- there have been a few remarkable jailhouse conversions in history, among them Malcolm X, though they are the exception rather than the rule. Zimmerman doesn't look like he is capable of gaining insight into his behavior, because he has escalated rather than changed. His notoriety has confirmed him in his fantasy rather than changing it.

I believe in empathy, sympathy, talk therapy, getting to the root of things -- but most of all, when someone is a danger to others, I believe the first order of business is to STOP HIM.

[IdaBriggs]

116. I applaud this post.

I find it insightful and relevant.

Thank you for writing it.

[NoGOPZone]

108. I do nt

[NCTraveler]

110. I am sure he didn't want to kill him.

But the fact remains, he took all of the steps necessary to lead up to the killing of Trayvon.

[bettyellen]

144. I am not, sadly, he knew he would be in more trouble if Trayvon lived. and he was right.

[wercal]

112. I've had Z pegged from the beginning

He's a jerk. He's nosey. He likes to associate with authority figures (cops), wishes he could be one, and tries to project his own (unwarranted) authority when interacting with people. I can absolutely play out his first interaction with Martin in my head, with Z demanding to know why M was there, telling him to stop until the police got there, etc. I know his type...I've got him pegged.

The tragedy: Martin didn't know how to react. Like it or not (and I get flamed for pointing it out) Martin reacted in an extremely violent way...Zimmerman's face shows that.

And the rest is history. Z killed M in self defense, an act that was confirmed as justified by a jury (self defense in FL is an active defense...he had to prove it was necessary).

That's the tragedy. Z is a jerk wannabe...and M didn't know how to react to him.

No I don't think Z 'hunted him down' to kill him. Z gets his rocks off by telling people what to do...exerting his authority. Killing M would spoil that and isn't even part of the equation.

I've thought about whether or not Z had his gun out. I don't think he did. Did he put his phone away and pull out the gun? If I were Martin, and I saw a gun, I would run away instantly. I certainly wouldn't punch Z. And if I had punched him and got him on the ground, I would have concentrated all my efforts on getting the gun away from him...i.e. had my hand on it/covered in powder after it was fired. Another thing is he expected the police to be there any minute. In his last words with the dispatcher, he sounded dejected, because he had lost M, and he was going through the mundane task of giving directions to the police. He was off of high alert, no longer in hero mode. So I don't think he had it pulled out when the thing started. Now he very well may have reached for it...we will never know.

Frankly (and I've been flamed plenty on this board for my views), this case really wasn't about race (just months prior to the event, Z had led the charge against improper police violence against a black man). This is a tragic case about a busybody jerk and a kid who reacted to him with punches. And thousands of people projected their own emotions and intentions onto both parties.

[HipChick]

113. I think he is a murderous sexual pervert scum

who I am hoping will eventually find some justice - prison style

[La Lioness Priyanka]

114. most racists do not think of themselves as such

that doesn't make them any less racist

When you take a life in cold blood there should be consequences, the least of which is feeling guilt. He should have been found guilty of murder, because he did murder someone

[Hoyt]

135. So right. I learned that lesson at an early age. Guy in photo below claimed he was not a racist,

when he ran for several public offices. He was finally convicted of bombing a church in Birmingham.

[Gormy Cuss]

120. I don't think Trayvon Martin wanted to die.

I do think that Zimmerman was aware of the eventuality that he could kill someone. He wanted to be a LEO. He was "patrolling" with a gun looking for trouble. Where you see an individual broken because he killed Trayvon, I see a murderer who can't believe that he's not being treated like a hero for killing a black kid.

[gopiscrap]

121. bullshit zimmy has a gun fetish that fits in to his macho image of himself

[johnnyrocket]

122. Naaa, Zimmerman is a reckless, criminal, dangerous, gun-nut scumbag.

[Paladin]

123. Zimmerman delights in disappointing folks like you. Might as well get ready. (nt)

[Starry Messenger]

124. Everyone thinks they are a good person.

This person happens to be a narcissist with a nasty violent streak.

He's been rewarded for his behavior, via the stupid jury, and now he's seeing the consequences of the rest of society not thinking the sun shines out of his ass.

[MADem]

128. This is probably the weirdest post I've seen today on DU.

I think Zimmerman was a racist pig, and I don't care how many "black friends" his associates claim he had.

He chased that kid. He hunted him--even when the dispatcher said don't do it.

They always get away.... he said.

Well, George got away with the murder of a teenager, walking home with candy, talking to his girlfriend on the cellphone.

I won't even get into all the allegations of sexual abuse and other bullying behavior that have peppered the life story of this cretin. By his words, on tape to the dispatcher, we shall know him.

[bettyellen]

134. you think he pulled the gun to detain the kid for no reason- AND was a GOOD guy? How the fuck did

you do the math on that one? That is not good behavior, it is sick, delusional and dangerous.

He's a much of a "good guy" as the KKK who "believed" they were doing great things for the community.

[sendero]

137. I mostly agree with your post..

..... except for this "and thanks to a good attorney/bad prosecution, he didn't end up in jail for life".

No, it was a jury made up of racists and idiots that let Zimmerman go free.

[Demo_Chris]

139. I disagree, but you have my RESPECT for posting this. Well done! nt

[CFLDem]

146. I heard a ballistics expert testified

Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman due to the angle of the holes in his shirt and the grass stains on his knees.

Enough to convince me Zimmerman engaged, words were said, a fight ensued, Zimmerman was getting his brains bashed out, and the least prepared guy tragically got shot.

Assuming this is true, case closed for me.

Btw Zimmerman is still an asshat.

[NealK]

147. Nice flamebait.

Again.

[Incitatus]

148. I also agree that his gun was out at the time of the confrontation.

He should have known better. Never, ever draw your gun unless you are in fear of your life and think you will need it for defense. The fact that he chased him down disregarding the dispatcher's warnings negates that possibility. The previous allegations and his actions after don't make him look like a good guy. They make him look like a psycho.

[nomorenomore08]

151. This ignores his prior history (prior to killing Martin) of violent behavior.

He's assaulted girlfriends, cops, you name it. The guy is a danger to others, period, not just to the Trayvon Martins of the world.

[Tien1985]

152. He molested a young girl.

I'm sure he thought he was justified in doing that too.

What he thinks about himself is irrelevant. The man is a danger to society and morally bankrupt.

[cherokeeprogressive]

153. You picked the widest fairway, in a thunderstorm, walked to the middle and held up your three iron.

You called down the lightning, and fucking A down the lightning did come.

I'll give you credit... When the lightning struck, you didn't toss the three iron away and run for cover. You held it up and waited for the next lightning strike. That's BOLD.

I posted once, after a good a few rounds of Wild Turkey and Coke, that no one who wasn't there could state for certain what happened or why. Boy did I catch shit for that. I was called a Zimmerman Apologist and worse. I used to think I could point out the scars, but ya know... I'm kinda like a Sperm Whale in some respects. So many scars it's hard to tell which scars came from what stupid comments and who's to tell? Yeah well... One thing DU doesn't lack is an abundance of Psychoanalysts and Psychiatrists. So many here know the minds of others; it's a wonder DU doesn't break out and rule the world. So many claim absolute knowledge, it actually makes me afraid to ask because I feel dumb NOT knowing.

One thing I've wondered and have asked, and haven't had answered to any degree of satisfaction is this: IF "Zimmy" was in fact "hunting" some young black kid for the purpose of hanging his head on his wall, why on God's Earth would he call 911 when he found him? WHY would he involve ANY authority before shooting him? Why didn't he just maneuver him into a place where he could shoot him and THEN call 911? Zimmerman called 911 each and every time he encountered someone he thought was suspicious. Does that sound like the action of a person who was intent on finding a young black man he could kill and get away with it?

Zimmerman was guilty of causing the unnecessary death of another human being. There is a legal definition for that, but I'm not a lawyer and do not know Florida Law. He is not INNOCENT in this act. He SHOULD HAVE BEEN PUNISHED for SOMETHING. For what, I cannot say because I am ignorant of Florida Law as I have already stated.

Put me on record though as not believing that he was actively "hunting". Put me on record as not believing he was "out to kill". Use as my reasoning for those beliefs the facts that he called 911 each and every time he found someone "acting suspiciously" he called 911, INCLUDING his encounter with Trayvon Martin.

[bettyellen]

155. legally, intent only takes seconds to form. aiming point blank at his heart seems

to point to intent. add to that- he already knew once he pulled the gun out, he'd be in more trouble if Trayvon lived to tell the truth about his stalking and brandishing. sadly, that's how the laws work. it's an incentive to settle the score before the cops show up, leave no story but your own out on record. he knew those ropes.

[cherokeeprogressive]

156. So you're saying Zimmy got lucky and that he WAS hunting.

Trayvon presented himself at just the right moment, like a deer on the other side of a meadow at the break of dawn, only CLOSER.

Why would Zimmy call 911?

[bettyellen]

157. hunting? who said that? looking for trouble for sure, but....

no idea where this hunting thing came from.

[IdaBriggs]

161. Many people on this thread believe he was "hunting"

for someone to kill because he was a wannabe serial killer looking for his start in the trade. This opinion (repeated in multiple threads) was why I started this thread to share my point of view of someone who wanted to be a good guy, had a bad day, made some serious mistakes in judgment resulting in the death of an innocent, escaped jail, and is now self destructing in front of the world because of it. I believe only confession/acknowledgment of his mistakes, public remorse and a lifetime of atonement will enable him to escape the death spiral his life is in, but I find it unlikely.

But hunting serial killer wannabe with no conscience is one of the current beliefs (see thread for examples).

[bettyellen]

169. he "had a bad day". Wow, way to minimize his decison to stalk an innocent.

I don't think he thought he was a "good guy" so much as he was very hungry for control. Good doesn't enter into his past behavior. That he believed there was nothing wrong with frequently threatening and abusing both loved ones and strangers shows he had no moral compass, and is pretty irrelevant. Not sure why you think he was, on this occasion only, just randomly unfortunate. He had a history of abuse, he abused his "power" yet again- he is a common garden variety criminal with anger management problems and a hatred for young black men.

[IdaBriggs]

170. The "bad day" comment refers to what happened BEFORE the events

with Trayvon, which I believe affected his judgment (as I said in my original post). Please do not mistake my comments for minimizing what happened to Trayvon.

[bettyellen]

171. and during- you minimize this crime consistently with this "bad day" and "misunderstanding' crap

Frankly, it is repulsive. One has to wonder why you feel a need to write puff pieces about GZ. A guy who "felt so bad" he made hoodie jokes after the murder, is not the well intentioned sweetheart you portray. He is a racist murderous pig.

" he was scared of the stranger "stalking him" and the two didn't know each other. It was a bad day, and yes, I think the whole thing was Zimmerman's fault for having a gun, most likely out, in the first place. If he'd only been armed with a cell phone, Trayvon would still be alive and the misunderstanding of who these two people WERE - a community volunteer and a kid coming home from the store - would not have turned deadly."

[IdaBriggs]

172. Well, thank you for sharing your opinion.

Sweetheart - not what I intended to portray! And the second "bad day" was about the whole thing. (I explained the reference in your first quote.) Your opinion seems to be a majority one, so enjoy the feeling of community. (I am loving DU because even though folks think I am wrong for my interpretation, most have responded with courtesy, and support for my sharing it.)

[Hoyt]

160. He also called 911 after pointing a shotgun at his girlfriend, so?

Zman was training 3 days a week to beat up people (ie, intimidate people) and carried a gun if that didn't work. He is a bully, he was mad at his wife the night he saw Martin, so he grabbed his gun - which emboldened the little coward - and took off after the unarmed kid. I don't think he planned on killing him, but like all gun toters, he was ready and prepared to shoot center mass and concoct a story that he feared for his life if the opportunity arose.

Maybe one of you gun folks can tell me if the shotgun he used to bully his girlfriend was the one the gun manufacturer awarded him after the trial as a prize for shooting Trayvon?

[IdaBriggs]

164. I don't think training in martial arts automatically makes

You inclined to beat people up. I know quite a few people with black belts and by and large they are the LAST people to beat people up; frankly, the ones I know are an extremely impressive group of human beings. (NOTE: NOT saying Zimmerman is one of those!)

Do you know any good people who train in martial arts? Or trustworthy people with CCW?

How does one separate "the good guys" from the bullies (or people who have bad judgment which might result in the death of innocent people)?

[Hoyt]

167. Do they also carry a gun like Zimmy? Play policeman?

And you are right, it might not mean every one of them is a bully/intimidator. But they when you take everything into consideration, it's pretty easy to spot callus, bullying, paranoid folks and guns and violence are part of the equation.

A gun stuffed in one's pants -- and more at home -- is a lot more telling than some martial arts workouts.

[IdaBriggs]

165. Why is the image of Thor going through my head at the moment?

"And there WILL BE Civil Discourse!" (Krack-BOOM!)

There are some topics that seem to resonate for us all beyond the immediate facts. I think this case is one of them. The automatic assumption that a young teenager walking to the convenience store was a criminal who deserved to be shot to death -- and then no justice for him -- it is just so MORALLY WRONG that we all react to it. It is terrifying, and it needs to never happen again -- and we aren't at a place where that will happen.

If Zimmerman is an unredeemable psychopath, I think we can pretend it won't happen again easier. If he is a horrible human being, we can avoid those folks, and teach the children to do the same. But if I am right, the randomness of these events put all of us at risk.

Two people were outside on a rainy Sunday evening, neither with malicious intent. One was a community watch volunteer having a crappy day, and the other was a teenager being followed by a scary stranger who killed him.

Heaven help us; this is a national nightmare.

[Tien1985]

168. One was a domestic abuser

And a child molester.

Why is that part getting left out?

[JesterCS]

158. *prepares popcorn* n/t

[99Forever]

166. Your magic crystal ball...

... analysis is noted. And given all of the respect and credibility it is due.

Mine says this fucking creep was and is a premeditated, gunhumping, bullying, murdering scumbag that got away with it.

That's what "my mileage" reads.