Pope Francis is Time's Person of the Year.

[Are_grits_groceries]

I think he's a valid winner.

(Heard this on ESPN)

[darkangel218]

1. I agree.

Big thought changes coming from the Vatican.

Its a start.

[SecularMotion]

2. I was rooting for Miley

[a kennedy]

5. I was just going to say, thank gawd it wasn't Miley.

She needs to just go away, and now. Hopefully she'll grow up and stop this stupid and adolescent behavior.

[idwiyo]

3. Nice endorsement for homophobic bigots and forced-birthers. YAY!

[Are_grits_groceries]

6. Here is my take on Pope Francis.

The Pope still holds positions that are regressive. Am I satisfied with this? No. Justice comes too late too many times.

However, he has seriously left the reservation and the hierarchy at the Vatican is apoplectic. He is trying to shift the focus from social issues such as abortion to helping the poor. This is a radical change and the conservative priests and others have no idea how to respond.

Moving the Catholic Church as a whole is like turning the Titanic. We all want it to turn on a dime and that's not going to happen. As change goes for the Catholic Church, the Pope is moving at light speed compared to the speed at which shifts usually occur.

As the article states, he has a battle on his hands behind the scenes. As battles go, this one is probably off the charts. However, when the Pope speaks millions of people hear him. The Vatican can issue corrections all they want. Their influence on the majority of the faithful is small compared to that of Pope Francis.

Pope Francis is one of my 50/50 people. This is temporary for now.These are individuals who have negative records as well as positive ones. They cannot be viewed through a zero sum lens. All of it has to be considered in evaluating them.

LBJ is another of my 50/50 people. His record on civil rights and other domestic issues is tremendous. However, his moves regarding Vietnam create a huge negative history of him.

I consider Bobby Knight to be a 50/50 individual. On the positive side, his players graduated and he did not have problems with the NCAA. Google Landon Turner and find out what Knight did for him. On the other hand, his behavior towards players and in other instances was execrable.

Do I trust Pope Francis? No. I don't think he should be given a pass and not scrutinized. Any group with power needs to be closely watched.

As it is, watching the Pope is fascinating. I expect him to release a mix tape at some point.

[idwiyo]

16. All I see is a great PR and lots of people hearing what they want to hear. Nothing else.

Not one damn thing, just same old bullshit but presented in a different packaging.


http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/12/07/1260848/-Pope-Francis-Son-of-the-Church

[el_bryanto]

12. Do you believe that he is being celebrated for his stance on abortion and homosexuality? nt

[idwiyo]

17. He is "celebrated" for great soundbites. There is nothing else to celebrate.

His PR team should be given a special prize, IMNSHO. There is absolutely nothing to support any of the preposterous claims made about this bigot. He is unapologetic homophobic bigot and forced-birther. All that cheap talk about "world poor" is just a lot of talk. What is he actually doing about it? Inviting everyone to join in world-wide prayer? As in 'trust in gawd and he will provide'.

[el_bryanto]

18. Thank goodness for a the throw up smiley - saves a lot of time.

What kind of power do you imagine that the Pope has beyond exhorting people?

Bryant

[idwiyo]

22. Well, he could start with "Don't judge" followed by "Equal Rights for all".

Of course that will totally contradict everything his church stands for.

He could have started with basic shit like "Ye MUST wear condoms, because condoms help to prevent spread of STDs"...
He could add to it something about "Love your neighbour" actually means "You MUST love your gay neighbours too"

You know, basic stuff any decent person would try to promote. No?

[el_bryanto]

32. This is kind of a catch 22 - because i can post recent quotes that point to being less judgemental

But that just encourages you to post the quotes that are more judgmental. But here goes.

If someone is gay and he searches for the Lord and has good will, who am I to judge? We shouldn't marginalise people for this. They must be integrated into society.

Said on an interview after returning from Brazil.

Those who today always look for disciplinarian solutions, those who long for an exaggerated doctrinal 'security,' those who stubbornly try to recover a past that no longer exists - they have a static and inward-directed view of things. In this way, faith becomes an ideology among other ideologies.

Also I'm not a Catholic - but you seem to imply that Homophobia is Catholocism's only trait when you say that to preach don't judge would contradict everything the Catholic Church stands for - certainly the Catholic Church stands for more than Homophobia and Forced Birtherism?

Bryant

[idwiyo]

41. Forgot to mention that RCC also stands for institutionalised pedophilia.

As to his words about "who am I to judge", was there any recent announcement that he supports gay marriage for starters? No?

About "They must be integrated into society." Would it be before or after gays denounce their sexuality and take a vow of chastity? £10 on after.

Nice for him to admit his "faith" is nothing more than just another (totally fucked up) ideology, based on fear of punishment (by imaginary being).

Problem for you is not that this is a catch-22, it's simply that you are trying to defend a misogynistic and homophobic bigot, who is absolutely unapologetic about his bigotry, and doesn't offer anything more than a bit of lip service. There are no actions to point to. None.

[el_bryanto]

42. Well - your anti Catholic bigotry is pretty clear - and there's no point in arguing with bigots

I suppose.

Have a nice day.

Bryant

[idwiyo]

44. I am proud to be intolerant of bigots, regardless of their beliefs.

You are welcome to embrace them.

[joeglow3]

49. Aren't bigoted stereotypes great

It is even more fun when we can justify why it is okay for us to use them.

[idwiyo]

52. Are you implying that pope is not a homophobic forced-birther?

[theHandpuppet]

62. Interesting

So taking a stand against institutional homophobia and misogyny makes one a bigot. Would you dare throw out that kind of ridiculous slam if the Pope supported racism? Of course not. So why is it any different with homophobia and misogyny? The fact that anyone on a progressive forum would be called a bigot for attacking those who promote REAL bigotry and injustice is somewhere beyond the Twilight Zone in its cognitive dissonance.

[el_bryanto]

68. OK

"So taking a stand against institutional homophobia and misogyny makes one a bigot." - No - but implying and arguing, as many do that the only significant thing about the Catholic church is it's stance on Abortion and Homophobia is bigoted. That's the crux of it - there's literally nothing to the Catholic Church or to Pope Francis but homophobia and misogyny, and any time anybody implies that there might other sides to them (by pointing out some positive Statement by Pope Francis, for example), than the conversation must immediately go to Homophobia and Misogyny (and, usually, Pedophilia). Because that's is the sum total of Catholicism in some peoples minds.

It's a stereotype carried to the point of bigotry, where agreeing with Pope Francis when he talks about our messed up economic system, for example, is seen as a Homophobic/Misogynist act.

Bryant

[theHandpuppet]

71. When Francis talks about poverty and income disparity...

... without addressing some fundamental issues that contribute to same, then his protests are disingenuous and deserve to be exposed as such. And if you believe the church receives too much bad PR for homophobia and misogyny, there's a quick fix for that -- CUT IT OUT.

[Decaffeinated]

64. Rawr... aren't you the fierce one...

[sabrina 1]

91. He did start with 'don't judge' or did you miss that?

When he admonished Right Wing Catholics for their 'obsession with Gays and Abortion' and told them to focus on issues that affect all human beings, as Jesus did. Many people believe he was directly addressing US Republicans like Santorum et al. They sure are upset over having their 'pet' issues take such a blow from the Pope. So far, he's taken a step in the right direction.

[trotsky]

20. Any real discussion about alleviating poverty must address one of the major factors:

Lack of access to contraception. Women who don't control their own bodies aren't empowered.

But that's off the table with this pope and his church, so even the one thing he's supposedly doing right is severely lacking.

[idwiyo]

23. He can't even bloody admit that condoms help to prevent spread of STDs.

What kind of monster will sooner let people get infected with HIV than contradict his book of fairy tales?

[trotsky]

24. The same kind of monster who can tell you with a smile on his face that...

he won't "judge" homosexuals, as long as they deny their own sexuality and never try to marry the person they love. Hip hip hooray for this wonderful guy!

[idwiyo]

27. YAY! That message must be resonating really well with all the

"supporters" of Equal Rights. Just look at the amount of adoration he gets from some of the liberals and progressives.

[Capt. Obvious]

19. deja vu

Make sure you hit every thread on this topic with this exact same post.

[idwiyo]

21. Why, thank you! I'll do exactly as you advice me to do! :)

[eqfan592]

34. Given the number of DU'ers who seem to give two shits less about women and gays...

...so long as you put on a great PR campaign ( a campaign that involves restating almost the exact same messages from previous popes), I think the post is worth repeating on every single thread with this topic.

[yodermon]

29. The Catholic Church is a great force for evil in this world, there is no doubt.

If that is to ever change, though, what would the process look like? Do you really think the RCC can overcome centuries of inertia and become a bastion of liberalism in one fell swoop? Might it not be possible that this Pope, for all his abundant failings, is at least setting the stage for a change in the conversation? It will probably be decades before a pope satisfying your standards of ideological purity can be selected. In the meantime, IMO, any movement in the dialogue in a more progressive direction should be nurtured, otherwise such a pope will *never* be selected.

Finding shit to criticize the RCC for is easy, like fish-in-a-barrel easy. So keep on shooting those fish while the rest of us at are least recognizing a foot in the door when we see one.

[idwiyo]

43. "Condoms help prevent spread of STDs" - that hypocrite could start with that.

He bloody well KNOWS it's true. He simply can't be THAT stupid. He easily can authorise use of condoms by Catholics for STD prevention.

As to the "foot in the door", you (generic) are deluding yourself. It's all pure and unadulterated PR campaign, trying to put a gentler face on the same old bigotry. Sorry to tell you, but you hear what you want to hear, not what is actually said.

Keep celebrating homophobic forced-birther, but at least have enough integrity to admit that when it comes to Equal Rights gays and women should just accept they are much less important than singing accolades to BS like 'lt us join in world-wide prayer to help the world's poor'. That is way more important than actually doing something about it.

[yodermon]

65. *blam* goes the fish. OF COURSE the pope should assert that. Amid innumerable other things.

And if we're "celebrating the homophobic forced-birther", then you are pro-poverty, pro-income inequality, pro-vulture capitalism, pro-bankster class. Cuz you're bashing the guy who's against that stuff. Your black/white rhetoric cuts both ways.

[idwiyo]

78. Unfortunately for you there is no way to deal with poverty, income inequality, and pro-vulture

capitalism as long as we have people who deny Equality to more than 50% of the human race. Sorry but I will have to be a total hypocrite to ignore the reality.

[Sheldon Cooper]

4. I would love to see him call for a Vatican III conference, and

change the direction toward total inclusion for woman and GLBT people. Imagine what a force for peace and goodwill that would be.

[Gothmog]

7. I was still hoping for Wendy Davis

Yes, I know that she did not make the cut to the top ten

[SidDithers]

8. Yay for Pope Photo-Op!!...nt

Sid

[Le Taz Hot]

9. Should have been Snowden

but Time chickened out, fearing the backlash. They remember what happened when they named the Ayatollah as Person of the Year.

[BlueCheese]

48. I agree.

They ignored the elephant in the room.

[Demo_Chris]

10. Three cheers for the guardian, provider, and protector of child rapists! nt

[darkangel218]

11. He is making changes.

No, things aren't even close to OK, but he is trying to make changes. Why not recognize the steps forward?

[Demo_Chris]

15. He is making speaches full of platitudes while SHELTERING tens of thousands of child rapists....

It's a given that he is an attractive, charming, charismatic man, but then so was Ted Bundy.

[darkangel218]

25. He is speaking against those atrocities.

Change starts with words, opinions, and attitudes.

[eqfan592]

35. Actually, for a person of authority, change can easily start with action.

Actions which have been virtually non-existent to this point. However, one CAN use words to deflect attention from the things that need changing. Been seeing plenty of that, lately.

[Demo_Chris]

45. That's like the Walmart hiers speaking out against greed

And yes, that's REALLY what this jackal looks like to everyone but his defenders. Seriously, what is so hard to understand about this?

He is one of the most powerful and wealthy leaders on the PLANET. He is sitting in a palace of marble and gold, waited on by a personal staff of thousands, commanding perhaps a million priests and bishops and what not. His organization is worth literally TRILLIONS of dollars, his quietest whisper is law to almost a billion people who consider him all but infallible. His house, or one of the many palaces he owns, is so big it is it's own fucking NATION...

And he is giving speeches about humility and charity while servants wipe his ass with gold embroidered Orchid Petals. He's smiling and talking about the welfare of children while actively sheltering TENS OF THOUSANDS of child rapists and torturers -- monsters who continue their crimes to this very fucking day thanks to his enthusiastic assistance. He is the head of an organization dedicated to the oppression of woman and homosexuals. He openly works for the suppression of contraceptives -- thus ensuring the deaths of millions in the third world. He is a man who believes that AIDS might be bad, but condoms are worse.

This guy is the biggest Televangelist Con Artist on the planet. No one else is even close.

[Vashta Nerada]

54. This is what he said about gays:

Pope Francis is a conservative who is anti-gay marriage and anti-gay adoption. He has described same-sex marriage as the work of the devil and a “destructive attack on God’s plan.” He has also said that gay adoption is a form of discrimination against children.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/13/pope-francis-gay-marriage-anti_n_2869221.html

Yes. A real winner there.

[Demo_Chris]

60. Fighting to protect kids from 'the gays' while protecting child rapists from justice. nt

[Vashta Nerada]

61. Yep.

[idwiyo]

57. YAY! Lets all join hands in prayer! That will make it all better! Really!

No need to do anything at all, talking is enough!



The hypocrisy displayed by so many people is astounding when it comes to defending homophobic forced-birther and protector of institutionalised paedophilia.

[Berlum]

13. Republicon brainpans - such as they are - going to EXPLODE

"OMG, the Pope is actually sending the same message as Jesus. Can't somebody make him STFU?"

- Evang-o-Republicons, Inc. (R)

[Kingofalldems]

14. Bill Donohue: 'He's a Muslim!"

[darkangel218]

26. lulz!!

[Renew Deal]

28. Everything you need to know about Bill Donohue can be learned in this South Park episode

http://www.southparkstudios.com/full-episodes/s11e05-fantastic-easter-special

[joeybee12]

30. Snowden was the only choice, but since his revelations made rags like Time look bad...

Of course they woudn't choose him.

[Cali_Democrat]

38. Well didn't Time make Hitler person of the year at one point

even though his anti-semitism was clear?

[joeybee12]

40. Comparing the two? Time always says it's the person who is most influential, for better or worse...

Although for worse hardly ever makes it...but they did give it to the Ayatollah once. Pope Francis has garnered a lot of press, hasn't really changed anything, though...at least not yet....that remains to be seen.

[mr blur]

31. Just in time! -

[NuclearDem]

33. He's got a long way to go to be perfect.

But having someone in such a position of power and influence be so rabidly and fervently anti-capitalist is refreshing.

Now, condoms, gender equality, LGBT rights, and sex abuse, il papa.

[eqfan592]

36. If only the previous pope weren't also anti-capitalist. nt

[NuclearDem]

37. Well, yeah, Benedict had an anti-consumerist slant.

But Francis has turned that up quite a bit. It's not just a side issue with this Jesuit.

[eqfan592]

39. I think Time is doing this to give the Pope a Hitler connection, however tenuous...

...just so the previous Pope doesn't feel so bad anymore.

Seriously tho, I will continue to call into question the heaps of praise being showered onto this Pope until he does something of actual substance. Right now, he and his Fox News alum PR manager are doing fantastic work at convincing people he's the greatest thing since sliced bread, and that's about all they are doing.

[bvar22]

46. This will be fun to watch.

I like this Pope, and believe he is heading in the right direction,
but the self-absorbed will be unable to see this.

Some will let this ruin their whole day as they dissolve into bitter whining.

[eqfan592]

55. Seeing through a well put together PR campaign for what it is...

..and caring about discrimination against women and gays (and the effects such discrimination has on poverty, the Popes biggest issue) is being "self-absorbed" in your book?

ooooook then

[bvar22]

59. Imagining Boogie Men under your bed...

..isn't really seeing through a PR campaign,
though it seems real to the child hiding under the covers in the bed.

Applauding HUGE advances on several fronts is NOT endorsing the history of "discrimination against women and gays", though to the self-absorbed locked into binary thinking, it might appear to be.

Some of us CAN Multitask.

I LIKE where this Pope is heading.

[eqfan592]

63. LOL!!!! Huge advances? please provide evidence of these huge advances you speak of.

There's multitasking, and then there's willful ignorance and wishful thinking.

[bvar22]

75. Like I said above,

...it will be fun watching the perpetual victims self-immolate.

Thanks for the show!

[eqfan592]

76. Perpetual victims? Talk about just horrible wording on your part.

Your disconnect with reality is noted.

[theHandpuppet]

81. They're just pulling your chain...

... because they couldn't really answer your question. Elementary dodge from someone who can't back up their assertions.

[BlueCheese]

47. I think Time blinked.

It should have been Snowden, but I'm guessing that Time didn't want all the trouble that came with choosing him. Too bad-- all the world governments that are spying on their citizens could have used the rebuke, no matter how small.

[themaguffin]

73. interesting how social justice is easily dismissed here

[BlueCheese]

74. I'm not saying Pope Francis hasn't made a big impact.

But to me, in 2013, the repercussions of Edward Snowden's actions have been greater.

[eqfan592]

77. Social justice, like hiding away child molesters, and institutionalized discrimination...

...against gays and women. Yep, awesome social justice there. I guess giving a good speech completely offsets that.

[themaguffin]

82. No social justice like my comment said

[eqfan592]

83. So ignoring reality. got it. nt

[themaguffin]

84. So you don't support social justice. Got it.

[eqfan592]

85. You keep using that phrase.

I do not think it means what you think it means.

[themaguffin]

86. Yes it does, bu you are simply thinking in reference to the Catholic Church. I'm not talking about

the church and it's serious issues, but its core teachings which whether you like it or not, the Pope focusing on social justice - in particular income inequality is a big deal - THIS IS WHY THE GOP IS A HAVING A FIT ABOUT THE POPE.

[eqfan592]

87. If only the previous pope hadn't made similar statements, your point might be valid.

Yes, the GOP ifs losing their shit, and that's awesome. But not so awesome as to blind me to the realities of this pope and his church.

[themaguffin]

88. Previous hardly put any emphasis on it, period. once again, the point that I'm making has

nothing to do with the Church.

I get it. Church has done serious wrongs, so the Pope getting the world's attention on inequality is meaningless to you.

That is very clear, but the for the rest of us who care deeply about social justice (and knows what it means) support the attention and effort that it's getting. Benedict didn't do shit. It's unfortunate that close minded folks here at DU can't see the big picture and the significance of this.

[eqfan592]

89. It IS unfortunate so many here on DU can't see the big picture.

As in, seeing how words and platitudes don't amount to all that much in the long run, nor do they excuse the discriminatory practices promoted both by the church AND this pope that in fact work COUNTER to any efforts we can make to address inequality.

And the previous pope hardly put emphasis on it, period? Seems like somebody was either failing to pay attention or has a very short memory.

I'm curious as to how you might perform on this test, here: http://www.buzzfeed.com/ellievhall/who-said-it-pope-benedict-or-pope-francis

And further reading material/quotes:

The pope said "hotbeds of tension and confrontation caused by the growing inequality between rich and poor and the prevalence of a selfish and individualistic mentality also expressed by unregulated financial capitalism."

https://www.commondreams.org/headline/2013/01/01-4

Profit is useful if it serves as a means towards an end that provides a sense both of how to produce it and how to make good use of it. Once profit becomes the exclusive goal, if it is produced by improper means and without the common good as its ultimate end, it risks destroying wealth and creating poverty......Therefore, it must be borne in mind that grave imbalances are produced when economic action, conceived merely as an engine for wealth creation, is detached from political action, conceived as a means for pursuing justice through redistribution......The dignity of the individual and the demands of justice require, particularly today, that economic choices do not cause disparities in wealth to increase in an excessive and morally unacceptable manner

http://www.faithinpubliclife.org/blog/why_pope_benedict_disagrees_wi/

And seriously, I could go on and on. So yeah, to say that this pope is doing something new with his speeches about income inequality is ignoring reality. No, what's different is the popes PR manager and the PR campaign they are putting on. Well, that, and the fact that he's just a more likable person in general. But that doesn't change the fact that he's yet to institute any serious change in terms of addressing the issues of inequality, especially in the areas where he could most easily do so.

[themaguffin]

90. you don't understand the difference between what is happening now vs previously. You also

want to separate the Pope's attention to inequality from the rest of the world, just because it's from the Catholic Church and that's silly and counter productive.

Ignoring reality indeed.

[themaguffin]

50. Wow people, he's on the cover for bringing attention to things you AGREE with & you piss on him

[eqfan592]

56. He's still a supporter of institutionalized discrimination against gays and women.

That, combined with his views on contraception, as well as how all of the above impact poverty, makes him far from the greatest thing since sliced bread. He has said little in terms of poverty and capitalism that differs from previous popes. The biggest difference now is his PR manager (a Fox News Alum, no less).

[theHandpuppet]

66. Too many people still refusing to acknowledge...

....just how institutional misogyny in all its forms is one of the root causes of poverty throughout the world. 70% of the world's poor are comprised of women and children. Support full equality for women, reproduction rights, the use of contraception, condoms to prevent HIV/AIDS and you're going a long way to fight poverty and income disparity around the globe.

[themaguffin]

67. once again, you're missing my point.

[eqfan592]

69. No, actually, you're missing mine. nt

[themaguffin]

72. Wrong, my point was the counter the your point, which is the standard DU stance. We

understand that. We all get that. It's not dismissed.

I

[Vashta Nerada]

51. A misogynist homophobe for Time Person of the Year?

Color me shocked.

[1000words]

53. The Vatican PR team should be recieving this award

The Church isn't evolving, it's re-branding.

[idwiyo]

58. +1

[Liberal_in_LA]

70. exactly

[Niceguy1]

79. he is moving in the right direction

so yeah I think he deserves it.

[warrprayer]

80. good

I am happy for him.