For the fools who take libertarianism seriously ...

[Scuba]

[MADem]

1. Elizabeth Warren (and later POTUS) got excoriated for pointing out the obvious.

Fortunately, more people than not understood that when they said "You didn't build that" they were talking about the roads, the communications system, the electrical grid, the waterworks and sewer pipes, etc.

Let the libertarians work by candle light (assuming they can make their own candles), haul their water from the nearest creek, and shit in their own back yards--I'll wager they'd wish they did a little less on the production end once that shit starts stinking up their neighborhoods.

There are a lot of those fools around. They really believe their own bullshit, too.

[GladRagDahl]

2. Well, that's ignorant

He really should be better informed, having once been a journalist, but he apparently doesn't know the difference between "libertarianism" and "anarchy". Or...maybe he does know the difference and just doesn't have problems with coloring the truth. That would explain leaving journalism for hollywood. I hate to think he's just a complete fool.

[NuclearDem]

4. Well, what we call libertarianism the rest of the world calls anarcho-capitalism.

So libertarianism is a school of anarchism.

[VanillaRhapsody]

6. no seriously?

[NuclearDem]

7. It's one school, and certainly not the one I subscribe to.

[VanillaRhapsody]

8. OHHHH certainly not...

"One school"

[NuclearDem]

10. Yes, one school. I'm a collectivist anarchist idealistically.

Which is essentially the polar opposite of anarcho-capitalism.

[VanillaRhapsody]

35. of of course....nothing in common at all...right...

except for one small detail...

Anarchy = chaos.

you are a collectivist who idealistically supports chaos...thanks for the clarification....

nothing in common....not even that fringe thingy....yeah right! I full on support Democrats...it is why I am on this forum...and you?

[NuclearDem]

36. Plenty of people who identify with leftist anarchism support Democrats. Me included.

And for the quadrillionth time, anarchism does not entail chaos or disarray. That's a definition that's been culturally ingrained by two centuries worth of anti-anarchist propaganda, the same with socialism and communism. Certain people have a vested interest in maintaining the vertical power structure.

What's your opinion on Occupy? Because that is collectivist anarchism. Horizontal power structure and voluntary association.

But again, we're going to get into a tangent that proves you can't do basic research and are unwilling to have a civilized argument. You've had posts hidden over this matter before.

[VanillaRhapsody]

37. I wouldn't say lots....Almost all Democratic support is because

they identify with Democrats...

So that fringe thing...you still have that in common with the Libertarians along with that whole chaosy thing...and Libertarians support Republicans...but they don't identify directly as Republicans either do they?

by the way...I am a Socialist Democrat...so I can support Occupy without being an Anarchist...I actually believe in the American style govt...unlike Anarchists and Libertarians!

[el_bryanto]

5. What he says seems like a pretty good description of Libertarianism to me

No government services except the military - isn't that what Libertarians want in the long run?

Bryant

[kelliekat44]

32. Just Ayn Rand disciples in white sheets. nt

[abelenkpe]

26. Wrong

Libertarian in other countries means something quite different than here in the US where those calling themselves libertarian are Rand and Ron Paul followers who worship Ayn Rand.

[duhneece]

31. 'Selfishness is a virtue' according to A Rand nt

[ProSense]

3. Reminds me:

FANG: Do you think it’s hypocritical to take government subsidized and regulated health care as a member of Congress but repeal it for everyone else?

PAUL: Could be.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/100288476

[PatrynXX]

9. rather ignorant

someone is confusing Libertarians with Tea Party who are really anarchists hence Ron Paul I usually agree with more compared to that idiot son of his Rand Paul which maybe one thing I agree with him on and thats about it. He's an anarchist. No laws. Tired of people thinking Tea Party are Libertarians. Like calling Obama a Nazi. smh I'm left wing libertarian who tends to vote Democratic. Exactly who are you trying to offend here. Wish the stupid media would just refer to the Tea Party for what they really are. Anarchists.

[NuclearDem]

11. Capital L Libertarianism is anarchism. Specifically anarcho-capitalism.

If you're a left-wing libertarian, you probably fall under the anarchist banner as well, just something more like collectivist anarchism or anarcho-syndicalism.

There's nothing wrong with liking left-wing anarchism. It's not practical, but it's not a poisonous ideology.

[PatrynXX]

17. ha

do you know what the word anarchist stands for? and it's not anti christ either or you wouldn't make such silly comments.

Now if I was a Democratic Libertarian thats getting closer to la la land.

[NuclearDem]

20. Of course I know what it stands for. I identify with collectivist anarchism after all.

Libertarianism (the one advocated by the Libertarian Party) is anarcho-capitalism. Most anarchist schools of thought incorporate some form of libertarianism: civil, economic, or both.

So what was silly about what I wrote? I'm not stigmatizing anarchism, just stating that if you identify as a left wing civil libertarian, that puts you in line with some anarchist philosophies.

[Scuba]

13. This was definitely not directed at the Tea Party.

The Tea Party's funders are not anarchists, but rather backers of the police state. Everyone else in the Tea Party is either a grifter or a dupe.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

16. Actually, Tea Party types are big-government corporatists but don't know it.

They famously "don't do nuance" because they do so little study and introspection that they don't have a clue.

Tea Party types are manipulated by big faux-Libertarians like the Koch brothers who are really wanting to have a much greater alignment of government and big corporations: corporate welfare, subsidies, low taxation of profits, and massive spending on defense, police, and prisons: essentially the Neo-Con con. The short form label for that is fascism (a case where labelling is more accurate and useful than other cases).

The Big Government aspect is that Tea Party types actually want lots and lots of government interference into personal lives via trans-vaginal probes, getting between doctors and patients, prevention of birth control while subsidizing "erectile disfunction" drugs, prohibitions against victimless crimes, state sponsored narrowly defined christianity, interference in teaching, state mandated teaching of religious doctrine at the expense of science education, over-testing in the name of standards at the expense of critical thinking, and much more.

[PatrynXX]

22. the general tea party members

are anarchists (not Libertarians) Koch brothers are just using them I already know this. Just take a look at Sarah Palin. Never have I seen a female more USED than Sarah Palin. I do pitty her. Not say Ann Coulter but I do with Sarah because they'll use her until she's grey in the hair and toss her out.

must say never been called an Anarchist before. Not really big government but not small either and Tea Party members it's clear they want NO government.

[Scuba]

30. Sarah Palin is using the Teabillies to make herself rich. I have no pity for her.

[Comrade Grumpy]

33. Tea Partiers aren't anarchists or Libertarians. They want the state to do their bidding:

Screw the shiftless poor.

Keep wimmen and gays under control.

Fight bearded Others.

[mountain grammy]

12. Like my former mechanic who put a big sign on his garage

"We built this, not Obama!" to announce to all who pass by that he's an idiot. His kids attend public schools and his business operates on a county maintained road. He gets his power from our rural electric co-op, and his mail from the USPS, gasp, socialism.
He's a good and honest mechanic, but I will not have my car parked at his business as long as that sign remains in place, but I'm sure in our teabagger community, he's gained a few customers.

Libertarians may protest, but this is what they believe. Own it, you stupid cowards, like my former mechanic, so we can know you for the hypocrites you are.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

14. For fools (your wording) that take caricatured labels as the real thing ...

Note: I agree with the general broad underlying motives that prompt an OP such as this thread. However, ...

Libertarianism is the current darling target in progressive and liberal circles, but the straw man that so many delight in knocking over is just as ridiculous as the straw man liberalism/progressivism = socialism = marxism = communism that the right wing delights in knocking over.

As described by David Simon above, that extreme unmodulated form (ex. Randian objectivism) is worthy of contempt and denigration.

However, there are many shades of libertarianism that partially overlap liberalism and anarchic socialism, and many people with those leanings and persuasions who can be united with us to make common cause for progressive and liberal goals. It is a mistake to put so much weight on a label, but it is very convenient for many and a comforting target for many readers. Similarly, conservativism traditionally is more akin to modern left-of-center liberalism and very different from neo-conservativism. Conservatism at its root is the beginning of conservation and the environmental movement, for example. Neo-conservatism is much more aligned with the ultra-libertarianism that Simon sets up above, except for their uber-nationalistic lusting for "foreign adventures" and constant war.

Too much indulging in labeling (of which I am guilty too) is not as good as focusing on specific policies, legislation, regulation, and action.

[First Speaker]

23. Excellent post, Prof...

...we're all guilty of this. Some of the best, most socially aware folks I know are libertarians, with a small "L"...

[NuclearDem]

24. It's where team politics mixes with ignorance (willful or otherwise).

Too many people who can't differentiate between Libertarianism and civil libertarianism, and have a Pavlovian instinct to point to Ron Paul anytime the word's mentioned at all.

[abelenkpe]

27. Civil libertarians are not what progressives attack

I know the difference. You know the difference. however my so called libertarian relatives do not. When I asked them if they were civil libertarians they freaked out and got bent out if shape. It is a mistake to ignore that the large vocal swath of people calling themselves libertarian in this country are ignorant right wingers who worship Ron Paul who is Clearly not a civil libertarian. These are the people the OP is calling out. Paulites are the libertarians the left should with good cause be wary of. They are dangerously ignorant, bigoted and cruel.

[nadinbrzezinski]

29. Points to the Snowden threads

Discussing civili libertarians, takes hand grenade, removes spoon and pin, and throws, then runs away and takes cover.

(Yes, you should go read those)

[abelenkpe]

38. Yeah?

I admit to not following most of the Snowden stuff. It was upsetting to see people here fighting amongst themselves.

[FarCenter]

15. All political ideologies are unworkable if implemented.

They represent points on a political compass which more practical people would want society to move towards.

[HoosierCowboy]

18. Libertarianism has been picked out of the trashbin of ideologies

...by the RightWingNuts to serve as a smokescreen for expanding corporate power. They figure they'll get you on all the "personal freedom" that needs to be protected from the clutches of government, when in fact individual freedom in their case defines those "persons" as corporate and not human entities.
Coming from those same voices that espouse "freedom" are laws that give advantage to corporations over individuals. Don't be fooled by the charming language.

...and as Mr. Simon points out the present day version of Libertarianism is a manifesto for sociopaths.

[Scuba]

21. Eggzaklee!

[ctsnowman]

19. Ron Paul 2012

[FatBuddy]

25. those who subscribe to libertarianism are a collection

of dimwits, shallow pates; the half-educated, the unfinished.

men and women of one book.

never to be taken seriously, always to be scorned and lampooned.

ANYONE who considers Ayn Rand legitimate philosophy is a full fledged, card-carrying moron.

[spin]

28. You do realize that there are Libertarian Democrats. ...

Libertarian Democrat

In American politics, a libertarian Democrat is a member of the Democratic Party with libertarian-leaning political viewpoints or views that are relatively libertarian compared to the views of the national party.[1][2]

***snip***

Libertarian Democrats support the majority of positions of the Democratic Party. However they do not necessarily share identical viewpoints across the political spectrum; that is, they are more likely to support individual and personal freedoms.

In general they support tax cuts, Second Amendment rights, same-sex marriage, the decriminalization of marijuana, a non-interventionist foreign policy, and to a certain extent, hard money. They are more likely to oppose deficit spending, protectionism, subsidies (especially to corporations) race-based affirmative action and many regulations on small businesses.

They staunchly support civil liberties and agree with the national party's stances on civil rights, separation of church and state, and habeas corpus for unlawful combatants; they oppose indefinite detention without trial or charge, the Guantanamo Bay detention camp, the USA PATRIOT Act, warrantless wiretapping, the War on Drugs, bans on gambling, and prohibition of prostitution.
While maintaining a relatively libertarian ideology, they may differ with the Libertarian Party on issues such as consumer protection, health care reform, anti-trust laws and the overall amount of government involvement in the economy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_Democrat

[bvar22]

34. There are some good elements to the Libertarian Platform that I support,

...and would LOVE to see adopted by the Democratic Party.

*Withdrawal of our military from foreign occupations,
military funding CUT drastically,
and the military restructured for Defense Only

*Legalizing victimless crimes.
Repealing all Drug Laws, Prostitution, and any law restricting sexual preference or behavior among consenting adults

*Restoring the Civil Liberties guaranteed by the Constitution,
especially with regards to the 4th and 1st Amendment.

*Immunity and Protections for Whistle Blowers

*Restore Habeas Corpus

*Protect Americans from Government Spying, data collection, and surveillance

*Discontinue the Department of Homeland Security


Those are issues I can support,
but most of the rest of Libertarianism is scary Survival of the Richest BS.