Mike Luckovich is gonna piss off all the NSA supporters/Snowden haters here

[n2doc]

[99Forever]

1. Perfect!

Truthiness is a wonderful thing.

[billhicks76]

98. Exactly...what hypocrites

They hide behind secrecy while declaring we shouldn't have any privacy. The war on terror is a fraud. Reinvestigate 911.

[SidDithers]

2. Snowden is a modern day Paul Revere with a thumb drive full of news that Tyranny is coming!...

Sid

[Scuba]

4. Despite your intention, your message isn't exactly far removed from the truth.

[Pholus]

7. Hey, that system will be GREAT when Bush the Third needs...

to find out the list of Quakers protesting his next war of choice.

You have to keep in mind what this is actually all about!

[hootinholler]

16. Keep trolling Sid

This one is actually funny in an ironic sort of way. The more that gets revealed, the closer to truth your assertion is.

[riderinthestorm]

17. I smile every time he posts it. His point is actually prophetic

which clearly he doesn't get or he'd stop posting it.

But hell, I'll take the chance for a laugh where I can find it...

[NBachers]

88. At some point, the lines of irony and the lines of truth will converge.

"Don't cross the lines!"

[SidDithers]

19. Posted in honour of the return of banned troll USGovtOwesus3Trillion...

whose zombie returned to DU on Nov 29.

Sid

[AverageJoe90]

26. And he's a Snowden supporter? nt

[Whisp]

38. awesome detective work, Sid.

you are very good at that.

[sabrina 1]

18. Yes, he is actually. Thanks for the acknowledgement.

[truedelphi]

49. I agree with you.

And unfortunately, those of us who see Snowden as a modern day Revere, could possibly end up being viewed as Traitors by the Tories in charge of our lives these days.

[Jack Rabbit]

23. Does tyhis mean you finally see the light, Sid?

'Bout time.

[LiberalLovinLug]

35. You've seen the light!

Because the opposite is someone who hides the truth and intentionally misleads and covers up a secret encroaching tyranny (of personal invasion). And who would want to celebrate that?...oh

[Hissyspit]

59. Federal Judge Writes Epic Smackdown Of 'Likely Unconstitutional' NSA Phone Record Collection

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2013/12/16/federal-judge-writes-epic-smackdown-of-unconstitutional-nsa-phone-record-collection

[SpcMnky]

77. Well Said!

I'm going to remember that

[malaise]

3. Brilliant

Rec

[mother earth]

5. A tip of the hat to ya.

Well done, well done.

[KansDem]

6. Thanks...

That sums up the outrage.



Who's that behind the curtain?
Some NSA guy...

[jsr]

8. Spot on.

[toby jo]

9. Covers it.

[ieoeja]

10. Apparently not all. I thought it was funny. n/t

[niyad]

11. k and r

[L0oniX]

12. K & R

[randome]

13. You too easily confuse 'supporters/haters' with those who see things differently.

Look at any of the more interesting threads on the subject. It's those who want to look to Snowden as a hero who end up castigating others or saying how much fun they have watching others 'squirm'.

Granted, it occurs from both ends of the debate spectrum but much more from the 'heroic' side.

The reality is that those you want to categorize are not 'squirming' and don't enjoy seeing others' points disproved. (Well, the majority of us, that is.) Most of us on DU simply enjoy the debate with -whatever differences exist- like-minded DUers.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]TECT in the name of the Representative approves of this post.[/center][/font][hr]

[sabrina 1]

20. For most people who respect the laws of this country it is about what has been revealed. As citizens

people have a right to know what their government is up to, how their tax dollars are being spent. Whistle Blowers should be protected in a democracy. Clearly this government has an awful to hide or they would not be persecuting Whistle Blowers like Manning, especially since most of her revelations concerned crimes committed by the Bush gang. What should have happened with those revelations and with Snowden's is a thorough investigation into what was revealed.

One thing they have not been accused of is lying. When crimes are reported the normal thing to do is to investigate them to see if someone needs to be charged or at least FIRED.

When that doesn't happen but instead, the messengers are the ones being persecuted, it definitely raises concerns as to what the Government is trying to hide.

If they have nothing to hide, they have nothing to fear from Whistle Blowers. The way to not have to worry about being exposed is to abide by the laws.

[randome]

22. Snowden never reported a crime. He stole as much as he could and ran off to Russia.

Most of the information he gave to Greenwald concerns international spying, which is not, by any stretch of the imagination, a crime.

He has never explained what he meant when he said he "saw things". He has never explained how he had "the authorities" to spy on the President.

He comes across, to me, as a confused loner who fell in with the Libertarian crowd and fancied being a hero.

Not everyone who leaks classified information is automatically a whistleblower. I don't see any crimes being committed by the NSA since collection of phone metadata is allowed by law. If Snowden disagreed with that, he could have quit and leaked the information anonymously but that would not have had as much of an impact since the metadata issue was known since 2006.

Some people get trapped inside their own heads and can't see the rest of the world very clearly. I think Snowden fits that description.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]TECT in the name of the Representative approves of this post.[/center][/font][hr]

[sabrina 1]

24. If had done it anonymously you would be accusing him of being a coward, which I saw people doing

btw, when the story first broke and no one knew who he was. He quickly disabused them of that charge and identified himself.

Snowden clearly has revealed as evident in the recent ruling in real Court that what the NSA is doing is unconstitutional.

Now that a real court has ruled on the subject rather than the rubber stamp secret court, Congress needs to do its duty and begin the investigations that are required when crimes are committed.

Snowden is no different than Ellsberg who was once vilified also but is now considered to be a hero.

People who witness crimes have an obligation to report them. Most remain quiet when the crimes are committed by powerful people, understandably. But every once in a while, someone has the courage to do what is right as Ellsberg did, and Manning, and Snowden, and others, all knew the consequences they would face. Those who followed the rules covering Whistle Blowers, were persecuted also, losing their jobs, reputations, and even freedom. Seeing how THEY were treated, most now take steps to protect themselves and they sure won't trust any advice to 'follow the rules' after witnessing what happened to those who did.

[GoneFishin]

30. He exposed crimes. In general, people wait for the government to determine when a crime has been

committed, and to press charges.

OBVIOUSLY, that is not going to happen in this case. With no one in authority investigating, it is pretty lame to state flatly that he did not report (expose) any crimes. It is baloney.

[LiberalLovinLug]

33. Exactly

Its a self serving argument to say "no crimes were committed" when the ones committing the crimes get to create or dismantle any law they like. And those laws they can't get rid of easily they simply shroud their acts with a stamp of "national security".

[sabrina 1]

62. They've resorted to trashing the Constitution now. I remember when Bush supporters did

the same thing. Whenever it was pointed out to them that Bush was violating the Constitution, they attacked it, with the usual talking points. Sad to them here sometimes though. But I guess when you pay for talking points, you may as well re-use them.

[wildbilln864]

83. bush said...

"....it's just a god damned piece of paper!"
Apparently BHO thinks the same way.

[Whisp]

40. I'd be more inclined to believe more of what Snowden is saying if

he can prove to us all his early claim that he got Obama's email and phone content.

Without that he's just another Ayn Randing liar.

[sabrina 1]

63. Can you point out what is incorrect in the documents he has released?

Looks like a whole lot of pretty powerful people are 'inclined to believe him' since he's produced actual documentation of what a judge, who was also inclined to believe him, ruled to be unConstitutional.

That is what Liberals have been saying since Bush instituted these policies and placed his Right Wing buddies in charge of the 'program'. Those Right Wing cohorts of Bush are still running this operation for some reason since we VOTED THEM OUT and one of them lied to Congress not too long ago.

I am inclined to never believe Right Wingers on matters that affect the American people especially when so much of our tax dollars are involved and the revolving door from major 'Security Corps' keeps swinging back and forth from positions such as NSA chief, directly from CEO of Security Contractors and Back again to their old Corp where they reap the rewards they earned by convincing Congress to pour billions of dollars into those Corps. For our security of course!

I wonder why any Democrat would trust Bush's leftover Security people?? After all the lies they told.

[1StrongBlackMan]

31. +1

[AverageJoe90]

42. Good points.

And as for Ellsberg, he never *once* gave any information to *any* of our enemies. In fact, he acted out of true patriotism. He even made sure, to the best of his ability, that what he released could not plausibly bring real harm to people who had not been involved with wrongdoing. Snowden, however, took no such precautions, nor cared to.

[Hissyspit]

58. Good points? Not really:

Last edited Wed Dec 18, 2013, 07:38 PM - Edit history (2)

http://www.dailytech.com/Audit+NSA+Agents+Broke+the+Law+Nearly+3000+Times+from+2011+to+2012/article33186.htm

Audit: NSA Agents Broke the Law Nearly 3,000 Times from 2011 to 2012
Jason Mick (Blog) - August 16, 2013

and

http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2013/12/16/federal-judge-writes-epic-smackdown-of-unconstitutional-nsa-phone-record-collection/

TECH | 12/16/2013 @ 4:24PM |6,940 views

Federal Judge Writes Epic Smackdown Of 'Likely Unconstitutional' NSA Phone Record Collection

This federal judge says the NSA collection of Americans’ phone records likely violates the Constitution.

Thanks to a leak of classified documents by former NSA contractor Edward Snowden, we learned this summer that Verizon (and presumably other phone companies) were regularly handing over to the federal government metadata for all of their customers. Metadata being a fancy word for lists of all the phone calls made, which numbers were calling which numbers and how long those conversations lasted. While jaws were still on the floor regarding the scope of such collection, which would include hundreds of millions of people (including you, unless you don’t have a phone), two Verizon subscribers got to work drafting up a lawsuit. Larry Klayman, a conservative activist, and Charles Strange, father of a Navy SEAL who died in Afghanistan, sued the federal government as well as Verizon, saying that the phone company handing over their information to the feds was a violation of the U.S. Constitution and an “outrageous” breach of privacy. In a scathing opinion out of the District Court of D.C. Monday, federal judge Richard Leon agreed with them, saying the phone metadata collection program is “almost certainly” unconstitutional.

Calling the wholesale download of America’s phonecall activity “Orwellian,” Judge Leon writes that the NSA’s collection and querying efforts “likely violate the Fourth Amendment.” This is a huge deal. This is a classified program that has been in place for seven years that has been collecting information about most anyone with a phone, reviewed only by judges from a secret surveillance court. Brought into the open only because of documents leaked by Edward Snowden, a federal judge now says on an initial review that it is likely unconstitutional.

“To my knowledge, no court has ever recognized a special need sufficient to justify continuous, daily searches of virtually every American citizen without any particularized suspicion. In effect, the Government urges me to be the first non-(secret surveillance court) judge to sanction such a dragnet,” writes Leon, who was particularly vexed that those people whose information is collected have no recourse to challenge that collection. Only phone companies knew this was happening and could object to it. “While Congress has great latitude to create statutory schemes like FISA [the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act], it may not hang a cloak of secrecy over the Constitution.”

[randome]

70. '3000 times' means 3000 names.

It's easy enough to do in the Information Age with the wrong press of a button.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[Hissyspit]

73. Jeez.

[randome]

76. That doesn't refute the Information Age.

Where data is ridiculously easy to copy and disseminate.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]

[grasswire]

52. Most of the world would say he IS a hero.

He accomplished his dearest goal.

Too bad that offends you.

[Hissyspit]

57. HERE:

Last edited Wed Dec 18, 2013, 07:06 PM - Edit history (1)

http://www.dailytech.com/Audit+NSA+Agents+Broke+the+Law+Nearly+3000+Times+from+2011+to+2012/article33186.htm

Audit: NSA Agents Broke the Law Nearly 3,000 Times from 2011 to 2012
Jason Mick (Blog) - August 16, 2013 2:40

NSA lawyers argued in court that sometimes agents had to break the law due to technical limitations

MORE AT LINK

[grahamhgreen]

89. In my view, he did report a crime, to the top US officials known as "We The People", along with

evidence.

[zeemike]

78. Well said

As usual...

[baldguy]

36. They're too busy trying to use the RW tactic of unfairly painting Snowden skeptics as fascist thugs

To understand how foolish they makes themselves look.

[neverforget]

79. Or painting Snowden supporters as Libertarians, Rand Paul or Klayman supporters

There is a lot of hyperbole on both sides

On edit: I just saw your post #65. Call me back when Snowden's fans stop using lying RW libertarian talking points.

[sabrina 1]

80. When someone is on the side of the facts, they never have to worry about looking foolish.

[AverageJoe90]

95. Sad but damn true.

And way too many people around here, it seems, have fallen for the hype & lies.

[Hissyspit]

60. Really?

I've been regularly attacked as a troll, Libertarian, or Obama hater (none of which is true) for pointing out failures in logic, ignored information, and disproving many anti-Snowden/Greenwald attacks or talking points.

[rhett o rick]

64. I think I can tell the difference. Open minded people would react to the revelations by Snowden

by showing interest in finding out more information. The haters started off the first day by disparaging Snowden as a person and flat out denying that there could even be a possibility of a problem at the NSA. The haters hate because they want so badly to live in the bliss of denial that they go beyond ignoring the clamor and actively attack those that might want the curtain pulled back.

I am guessing you loved the recent "60 Minutes" pro-NSA propaganda show the other night.

[riderinthestorm]

14. Ha! K&R nt

[iandhr]

15. Funny cartoon.

But seriously I think there is room for nuance in the discussion.

[baldguy]

37. Obama's critics don't understand nuance. Never have.

[neffernin]

45. Yeah, ever since Ichan's attempted takeover

their stock has gone into the gutter. (/sarcasm)

[Hissyspit]

55. "Obama's critics?" This can only ever be about President Obama?

Last edited Wed Dec 18, 2013, 06:45 PM - Edit history (1)

And you are complaining about people not getting nuance?

[Hissyspit]

67. Call me back when people stop using the substance-less "you just hate Obama" talking points.

And the disproven factually incorrect talking points.

[baldguy]

69. Like the "Obama is no different (or worse) than Bush was" talikng point?

Which we see every day coming from delusional Snowden fans.

Who's being substance-less & factually incorrect?

[Hissyspit]

72. So this can't ever be about anything but Obama?

[baldguy]

74. See Post #65

[Hissyspit]

75. See Post #55.

[AverageJoe90]

96. Sad but true.

Also, sorry to hear about #65 being hidden.....it was a good one, if you ask me.

[sabrina 1]

84. I'm calling you right now to ask that you post some examples of these 'talking points'.

Drive by personal attacks on DUers with no substance, and zero to back up those attacks, don't get a pass on a forum like this where people are come to get FACTS.

All I've seen from you so far ARE the same old talking points in an attempt to try to distract from the facts. Which of course was never a good tactic even when they first introduced it on internet forums.

I look forward to seeing something of substance to back up these talking points you are sprinkling throughout this thread.

[uponit7771]

21. Cartoon = Funny and true, Snowden STILL = traitor and stupid

[CFLDem]

28. +1

[CFLDem]

29. I prefer rat bastard, but traitor will do.

[Nanjing to Seoul]

81. I fail to understand. If this happened under Bush, we would laud Snowden as a hero.

Because he did it under Obama, he's a rat bastard and a traitor?

[uponit7771]

93. no "we" wouldn't

[Nanjing to Seoul]

94. I remember on the original top ten an icon for "snooping"

So it's wrong when Bush did. . .but okay when Obama does it?

I still fail to understand. Maybe you could elaborate on your no "we" wouldn't comment.

[CFLDem]

99. I'm sure a lot of people here would.

But IMO he's a stupid no good rat on account of his snitching regardless of what party is in power.

Not that the NSA is any better but it's much easier to roast an individual rather than a faceless agency.

[bobduca]

102. Yes let's take the easy route and focus on an individual, and ignore the organization's crimes

GENIUS!

[CFLDem]

105. No one said that.

Why are such assumptions made?

[Hissyspit]

61. Still got nothing, hunh?

[uponit7771]

92. Got Der Spiegel and Snowdens admission to handing docs to Chinese media = Chinese gov...

... what SnowGlen fans got is hypocrisy; the unwillingness to hand others the "ends fit the means" excuse they're pandering

[JEB]

25. The cartoon reveals the rank hypocrisy of the NSA

and their defenders. Kind of funny, I guess. Out of control criminal government run enterprise pleading for privacy. Snowden spilled some of the beans. Good for him.

[Jesus Malverde]

32. I never looked at it that way, it's so true... Screw Alexander and the NSA..nt

[yurbud]

34. transparency is a one way window according to "our" government

[WillyT]

41. HUGE K & R !!!

[Enthusiast]

43. Recommended X 1000

Perfect!

[neffernin]

44. I don't like Snowden but

I also don't like the NSA. Just because I don't agree with how Snowden has done what he has done doesn't mean I don't agree with the results. Imagine what free thinking does for you!

[HangOnKids]

90. LOL!

Yes IMAGINE that!

[AverageJoe90]

97. I don't really like the NSA either.

I think we can all agree that the NSA has had some explaining to do and some leadership issues to work out for quite a while now. But to laud Snowden as a hero, when he gave information to a foreign rival of ours, is *quite* foolish.

[DeSwiss]

101. So you like the rain.....

...if it didn't have to come with all that thunder and lightening all the time, huh?

- Don't blame Eddie for your roach-infested country, he just turned on the lights!


''Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will. Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them, and these will continue till they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress.''~Frederick Douglass

K&R

[neffernin]

106. Well, suppose he gave the information to the Russians instead

in a misguided attempt at trying to do whatever it was he was trying to do. Maybe he has. Believe me, I'd love to wish for the best and believe that Snowden did everything with freedom front and center but I'm too cynical and realistic for that.

I do value that fact that our country has spies, I'm sure it is of some value to us. Just like wikileaks I'm also sure that some of them have been put at risk.

Again, I hope that's not the case and we can all hail the misguided fella as a freedom fightin' hero and all... just don't feel the world is quite that black and white.

[neffernin]

107. As if

my opinions matter.

[woo me with science]

46. Happy to be the 145th rec,

and happy to see the propaganda is failing so miserably.

[pa28]

47. It did indeed.

[fbc]

48. NSA backers focus on Snowden because the NSA crimes are indefensible.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

50. What crimes?

All Snowden revealed is how they spy on foreigners. Not a crime.
And store metadata. Not a crime.
And use provisions of the Patriot Act. Which is a law. Not a crime.

"I don't like this" is not the same thing as a "crime". Know the difference.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[Hissyspit]

56. HERE:

http://www.dailytech.com/Audit+NSA+Agents+Broke+the+Law+Nearly+3000+Times+from+2011+to+2012/article33186.htm

Audit: NSA Agents Broke the Law Nearly 3,000 Times from 2011 to 2012
Jason Mick (Blog) - August 16, 2013 2:40 PM
Print

16 comment(s) - last by nafhan.. on Aug 19 at 9:28 AM

(Source: Mary GrandPré, modifications Jason Mick/DailyTech LLC)
NSA lawyers argued in court that sometimes agents had to break the law due to technical limitations

[ConservativeDemocrat]

108. So the big "illegality"....

...is that sometimes when bugging foreign networks, US citizens would be on both ends of the conversation, making it technically illegal to record - but the NSA couldn't know that was the case until they recorded it. A sort of chicken and egg problem.

Also, sometimes when executing warrants, they made typos in searches.

I'm sorry, but if anything, this grand "revelation" is the exception that proves the rule. These are trivial mistakes of human error, a tiny handful of people who were chastised for not following procedure, and a couple of exceedingly minor technical glitches.

Essentially, you're trying to argue that we shouldn't have traffic cops because they're not always 150% perfect in their own driving habits; they might be going 1 mile over the speed limit when not going after speeders. OMG!!! They're BREAKING THE LAW!!!! And the grand total of the entire agency amounted to less than 3000 errors over the course of two years.

It appears that the courts demanded that the problems be addressed as best as possible, but otherwise see this as an acceptable best effort. And the only reason you even know about it at all is because they came clean.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[Hissyspit]

110. No, I'm arguing that when people say there were no crimes, they are lying.

Whether people mean "crimes" legally or ethically, or metaphorically, or as unconstitutional.

Your rationalizations are just that - rationalizations.

[fbc]

66. Breaking the law = crime

Section 215 of the Patriot Act, allows for the collection of evidence upon showing reasonable grounds that the things sought are “relevant” to an authorized foreign intelligence investigation.

How can you possible read mass surveillance of all US citizens, which the collection of metadata surely is, from that?

There is no way to legally do what the NSA is doing under existing law. The Patriot Act allows targeted collection and FISA allows warrantless surveillance of non-citizens. There is no law that allows warrantless surveillance of American citizens, and even legislators pass one, it would be unconstitutional.

The NSA is breaking the law. You're apparently ok with that, but let's keep it frank and honest and just admit that you are ok with the NSA breaking the law. Don't pretend that existing laws, however unconstitutional they might be anyway, permit the kind of surveillance that is currently happening. Or at the very least, quote the sections of these laws that allow this activity. But don't waste too much of your time looking for them because they do not exist.

[randome]

71. Third-party business records are not covered by any amendment.

In fact, the NSA doesn't even need a warrant to obtain them. The fact that they get a warrant shows they are aware of how sensitive some are to this.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[fujiyama]

85. You may be fine with our descent into a police state

but many of us are not.

Sometimes, just because it's "the law" doesn't make it right - or in this case, even constitutional.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

109. North Korea is a Police State

The U.S. is not. Period.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[Hissyspit]

111. There are different types of police states.

[idwiyo]

51. k&r

[hueymahl]

53. Great!!!

Proud to Rec

[Kurovski]

54. K&R. (nt)

[840high]

68. Spot on.

[Nanjing to Seoul]

82. Spot on. Authoritarians will hate this. And to them, Snowden is the devil.

Never mind the fact that the 4th amendment still applies, even though the SCOTUS has all but destroyed it.

[wildbilln864]

86. k & freakin r # 211! n/t

[blkmusclmachine]

87. NSA, No Stopping Anything

[snot]

91. The Snowden haters make a lot of noise, but

they're heavily outnumbered.

[bobduca]

103. Not only outnumbered

but seriously "outgunned" as well.

They got nothing but high blood pressure. I picture chain-smoking men in short sleeved white shirts with ties and glasses, sub-contracted ratfuckers posting rofl emoticons in a basement in virginia.

Watch as a clutch of 2-3 of them snark about what a "fucking god damned rat" Snowden is... it's quite fun and obvious.

[randome]

100. I think most have not thought this through.

The end-game of "Keep your hands off my metadata!" has no rewards.

Consider what will occur if the metadata collection is stopped.

It will have been proved that the NSA is not blackmailing the world and they are not selling corporate secrets. By inference, then, Snowden's 'revelations' will have served no purpose.

Some will no doubt twist this into the idea that they saved the President's life but that will only be another imaginary enemy to have been vanquished.

Meanwhile, our real enemies -austerity, infrastructure, climate change, jobs- will have received less attention than needed.

It's easier to fight against imaginary enemies than real ones. And it's a sad state of affairs that too few see that.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]

[GoneFishin]

104. Let them get good old fashion warrants with probable cause of wrong doing.

They're pissing away warehouses full of cash chasing ghosts and spying on innocent people because it is profitable for a few big companies.