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BelgianMadCow

(5,379 posts)
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 10:55 AM Dec 2013

Krugman does a no-show on the TPP - Dean Baker rebutts, NC digs deeper.

Paul Krugman, apparently pushed by his readers, published a column about TPP - saying as far as he can tell, it's no big deal.

I’ve been getting a fair bit of correspondence wondering why I haven’t written about the negotiations for a Trans Pacific Partnership, which many of my correspondents and commenters regard as something both immense and sinister.

The answer is that I’ve been having a hard time figuring out why this deal is especially important.
..
OK, I don’t want to be too dismissive. But so far, I haven’t seen anything to justify the hype, positive or negative.


Dean Baker, notable for his excellent interview about the TPP on Bill Moyers' show, immediately took issue with Paul Krugman:

I've got to take some issue with my friend Paul Krugman over his blogpost pronouncing the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) no big deal. As a trade question he is undoubtedly right. The countries in the pact are ones with whom the United States already has extensive trade ties and generally low barriers. Eliminating or reducing the remaining barriers cannot possibly have much impact on the U.S. economy.

However it is a misunderstanding to see the TPP as being about trade. This is a deal that focuses on changes in regulatory structures to lock in pro-corporate rules. Using a "trade" agreement provides a mechanism to lock in rules that it would be difficult, if not impossible, to get through the normal political process.


It's kind of hard to understand how someone as savvy as Krugman can discuss the TPP and not mention the secrecy, the lobbyists on board, the leaked chapters, and the potential for abuse of the investor-state dispute settlement procedure. I think this should give people some serious pause before elevating Paul Krugman to an economic God, or even close.

Yes, that's criticism of a lefty (well, a self-avowed liberal) by a lefty (me, of the Crazy variety). Oh noes! Other people that dare go there are Naked Capitalism, whose post today digs much deeper into Krugman, by way of Steve Keen. A great read if you have the time. You'll note that NC is the blog of the woman in the linked Bill Moyers segment, Yves Smith.

Steve Keen is a non-classical economist. Classical economists all say that the banks themselves are not to be considered in economic modeling. Sounds weird? It does to me, and the NC post explains why. Steve Keen does model banking, and as it so happens he correctly predicted the crisis. He's also one that advocates a modern day debt jubilee. That may be why you hadn't heard of him.

I'm not saying Paul Krugman is bad bad bad. But if you're looking for analysis or solutions that dare question the system, consider alternative sources and ideas as well.

And don't forget: the TPP train is on the fast track.
29 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Krugman does a no-show on the TPP - Dean Baker rebutts, NC digs deeper. (Original Post) BelgianMadCow Dec 2013 OP
People have assured me that the "new, liberal Krugman!" has disavowed support for NAFTA, as well. Romulox Dec 2013 #1
He supported NAFTA because he supports global trade but Larkspur Dec 2013 #3
He supports TPP today after seeing how NAFTA has been implemented. Romulox Dec 2013 #8
It was more that he wanted to bolster the Mexican working class. joshcryer Dec 2013 #18
But he's right *this* time, eh? Romulox Dec 2013 #22
Unlikely. joshcryer Dec 2013 #25
LOL. We're still waiting for him to revisit NAFTA, though, and admit his errors. *Crickets*... nt Romulox Dec 2013 #28
+1000 Vattel Dec 2013 #23
This is the same position all international capitalists take, as well as their ideological allies Romulox Dec 2013 #29
Thank You! bvar22 Dec 2013 #11
As always we cross paths on this. NAFTA was political for him. joshcryer Dec 2013 #17
There's a name for people who support destroying the working class for "political" reasons... Romulox Dec 2013 #21
He didn't believe the effect would be that bad. joshcryer Dec 2013 #24
He was terribly mistaken, at best, then. A craven liar, at worst. Either way, his support for TPP Romulox Dec 2013 #27
Krugman "gets it" about a lot of things, but his obsequiousness on these trade deals is baffling.... marmar Dec 2013 #2
Perhaps some interest of his would stand to gain? Puzzledtraveller Dec 2013 #7
Right, the TPP is a corporate income agreement FogerRox Dec 2013 #13
Corporations seek supra authority to override national sovereignty. Eleanors38 Dec 2013 #4
that's how I see it too. So tomorrow, we're protesting the TTIP in Brussels BelgianMadCow Dec 2013 #5
Look forward to your post about Demonstration.. KoKo Dec 2013 #9
Here's my post on the anti-TTIP demo BelgianMadCow Dec 2013 #15
Most of the times I've spotted something wrong in Krugman's analysis... JHB Dec 2013 #6
I only took one (grad school) course in Econ, so I am not too smart when it comes to this CTyankee Dec 2013 #16
While I disagree with Krugman on the TPP, I don't get the debt argument. mmonk Dec 2013 #10
TPP is a corporate income rights agreement FogerRox Dec 2013 #12
BelgianMadCow, I had alredy read Bakers blog, but thanks for giving it eyes FogerRox Dec 2013 #14
du rec. xchrom Dec 2013 #19
Economic Oppression Octafish Dec 2013 #20
Are there any other notable "DU acceptable" economists that have commented on TPP? DCBob Dec 2013 #26

Romulox

(25,960 posts)
1. People have assured me that the "new, liberal Krugman!" has disavowed support for NAFTA, as well.
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 10:59 AM
Dec 2013

No. No he hasn't. He supported NAFTA, and he supports TPP, and the aftermath of those deals is not of particular concern to him.

 

Larkspur

(12,804 posts)
3. He supported NAFTA because he supports global trade but
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 11:04 AM
Dec 2013

he also supports protecting our labor and environmental standards.
There were safeguards in NAFTA to do that but they were left to the discretion of the President, and to me that is wrong.

joshcryer

(62,276 posts)
18. It was more that he wanted to bolster the Mexican working class.
Fri Dec 20, 2013, 06:43 AM
Dec 2013

Arguably it worked but he downplayed the effects it would have on the American working class, which were enormous.

Is this good or bad? It's a tough discussion. Being of mind against borders and nationalities, I ideologically couldn't give a shit less if a Mexican got a job making Maytag washing machines when an American could be making one instead.

Yet, fuck Maytag, right?

Krugman was off by an order of magnitude of the economic impact NAFTA would have. Was he wrong for supporting the political position? I can't say no. But he was definitely wrong for getting the numbers so insanely off.

joshcryer

(62,276 posts)
25. Unlikely.
Sat Dec 21, 2013, 06:42 AM
Dec 2013

The fact that he posted his blog update saying he will dig more into TPP suggests he will change his position on the issue.

He's walking back the rhetoric because he knows it's wrong to simplify TPP as he did.

 

Vattel

(9,289 posts)
23. +1000
Fri Dec 20, 2013, 10:32 AM
Dec 2013

"Is this good or bad? It's a tough discussion. Being of mind against borders and nationalities, I ideologically couldn't give a shit less if a Mexican got a job making Maytag washing machines when an American could be making one instead."

Romulox

(25,960 posts)
29. This is the same position all international capitalists take, as well as their ideological allies
Sat Dec 21, 2013, 10:24 AM
Dec 2013

Heritage foundation, e.g.

bvar22

(39,909 posts)
11. Thank You!
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 12:52 PM
Dec 2013

Krugman was/is a BIG supporter of NAFTA,
and, in that respect, had a big hand in the destruction of our Working Class.

While I enjoy Krugman, and generally agree with him,
I have never forgiven him for his hand in the destruction of our Working Class,
and discount everything he has to say about "Free Trade" and "Free markets".
He has a big blind spot in this area.

joshcryer

(62,276 posts)
17. As always we cross paths on this. NAFTA was political for him.
Fri Dec 20, 2013, 06:40 AM
Dec 2013

Not economic.

He doesn't appear to actually support TPP but he thinks it's no big deal.

If he is as wrong about TPP as he is NAFTA, then yeah, it is a big deal and he needs to address that.

But the truth is as a treaty it won't be "secret" once it's voted upon. Maybe or maybe not we'll have time to go over it before the vote happens, we'll see.

Romulox

(25,960 posts)
21. There's a name for people who support destroying the working class for "political" reasons...
Fri Dec 20, 2013, 10:24 AM
Dec 2013

They are economically rightwing.

In other words, your excuse is worse than admitting Krugman's (continuing!) error.

joshcryer

(62,276 posts)
24. He didn't believe the effect would be that bad.
Sat Dec 21, 2013, 06:40 AM
Dec 2013

NAFTA also benefited Canada enormously, at the cost of the US' growth.

Krugman doesn't see the world as politically myopic.

This is what the landscape looks like:



NAFTA has been horrific to the production industry, and Krugman was wrong for thinking the impacts were minimal. That doesn't make him right wing or his intentions right wing. Mexico is our neighbor and friend. We are a specter of empire. Must we treat our neighbors with isolationist BS?

Romulox

(25,960 posts)
27. He was terribly mistaken, at best, then. A craven liar, at worst. Either way, his support for TPP
Sat Dec 21, 2013, 10:22 AM
Dec 2013

has to be examined in the light of his horrible "error" with regard to NAFTA--an "error" he is all too anxious to repeat with TPP.

marmar

(77,081 posts)
2. Krugman "gets it" about a lot of things, but his obsequiousness on these trade deals is baffling....
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 11:01 AM
Dec 2013

...... even if he supports so-called free trade, he should realize the TPP has pretty much nothing to do with trade.


 

Eleanors38

(18,318 posts)
4. Corporations seek supra authority to override national sovereignty.
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 11:05 AM
Dec 2013

They effectively run the government through both parties now, but do not want a return to a time when one party (the Democrats) was a viable check on their abuses & unfettered economic and political expansion.

International treaties can provide that authority.

BelgianMadCow

(5,379 posts)
5. that's how I see it too. So tomorrow, we're protesting the TTIP in Brussels
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 11:10 AM
Dec 2013

by trying to block the EU summit going on there. I expect administrative arrests and zero coverage, but will try to post here.

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
9. Look forward to your post about Demonstration..
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 11:59 AM
Dec 2013

Yves had a Krugman critique up this weekend about his view/non-view on the TPP which was a good read along with the comments. Nice to see that it's continuing with Steve Keen's input today.

Also...look forward to your post on the Brussel's Demonstration. That the fast track could still be moving forward is disappointing. Hopefully there will be more backlash from the countries involved in signing it and here at home. Both of my Senators the Dem & Repug support it. Nothing will dislodge the Democrat, it seems, because she's in a tough race given our state got taken over by the Repugs and she's a DINO anyway. Still..I hope.

JHB

(37,160 posts)
6. Most of the times I've spotted something wrong in Krugman's analysis...
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 11:11 AM
Dec 2013

...it's been more about the politics, specifically some parties not arguing in good faith in order to push a favored agenda. To realize that some people were pushing an ideological framework more than seriously addressing policy issues. It took him a long time to absorb that about Republicans and "centrist" pundits.

I suspect he may have a similar case of tunnel vision here.

CTyankee

(63,912 posts)
16. I only took one (grad school) course in Econ, so I am not too smart when it comes to this
Thu Dec 19, 2013, 06:19 PM
Dec 2013

subject. However, I have read Dr. K's columns in the NYT since he began with them...years ago. He was always right. His predictions always came true, and there were plenty of times I wished he WAS wrong!

I see this as more of a professional academic difference...and again, I don't get all the nuances of different economic theories (outside of some pretty broad categories of issues). But that's my take on it. I also think Krugman has been moving more and more left throughout the years I have been reading his columns.

Of course, I am a really HUGE Krugman fan, so I am prejudiced!

mmonk

(52,589 posts)
10. While I disagree with Krugman on the TPP, I don't get the debt argument.
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 12:22 PM
Dec 2013

I see it as political control and limits on beneficial macro-economic benefit.

FogerRox

(13,211 posts)
12. TPP is a corporate income rights agreement
Wed Dec 18, 2013, 11:40 PM
Dec 2013

Dean Baker is spot on, as usual. BTW Baker is Mr Social Security, Baker is known in Social Security Defenders groups, when I organized the SSD blogathon at Daily Kos earlier this year, I emailed Baker asking him to write for the blogathon, and he did. then I found out that people I knew, knew him.

Baker doesnt get the credit he deserves.

DCBob

(24,689 posts)
26. Are there any other notable "DU acceptable" economists that have commented on TPP?
Sat Dec 21, 2013, 08:02 AM
Dec 2013

im having a hard time forming an opinion with so much hype being thrown around regarding this issue.

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