NSA program stopped no terror attacks, says White House panel

[Ichingcarpenter]

member of the White House review panel on NSA surveillance said he was “absolutely” surprised when he discovered the agency’s lack of evidence that the bulk collection of telephone call records had thwarted any terrorist attacks.


“It was, ‘Huh, hello? What are we doing here?’” said Geoffrey Stone, a University of Chicago law professor, in an interview with NBC News. “The results were very thin.”

While Stone said the mass collection of telephone call records was a “logical program” from the NSA’s perspective, one question the White House panel was seeking to answer was whether it had actually stopped “any [terror attacks] that might have been really big.”

“We found none,” said Stone.
Under the NSA program, first revealed by ex-contractor Edward Snowden, the agency collects in bulk the records of the time and duration of phone calls made by persons inside the United States.

Stone was one of five members of the White House review panel – and the only one without any intelligence community experience – that this week produced a sweeping report recommending that the NSA’s collection of phone call records be terminated to protect Americans’ privacy rights.

http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/12/19/21975158-nsa-program-stopped-no-terror-attacks-says-white-house-panel-member?lite


''These programs were never about terrorism: they're about economic spying, social control, and diplomatic manipulation. They're about power. ''

Eric Snowden

[Th1onein]

1. But they helped in the prosecution of lots of people who were not pro-corporatists.

And they probably served their purpose in terms of giving American corporations an edge in the market.

I'm so sick of this shit.

[ConservativeDemocrat]

37. They did?

Please, where was evidence introduced in Courts from the NSA, in prosecuting a political crime? Or any crime?

Inquiring minds want to know.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[Th1onein]

44. No one said anything about a political crime, did they? But even if we did.......

Gosh, it's strange how you PRO-NSA guys seems to forget stuff so easily. Remember this:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/05/us-dea-sod-idUSBRE97409R20130805

Since the prosecutors and investigators are INSTRUCTED to hide the source of their information and to recreate the investigative process, would you really expect evidence from the NSA spying to be introduced in court? I think not.

"Although these cases rarely involve national security issues, documents reviewed by Reuters show that law enforcement agents have been directed to conceal how such investigations truly begin - not only from defense lawyers but also sometimes from prosecutors and judges."

I am curious about Eliot Spitzer's downfall. Was it a result of this program? But, then, because these investigators are instructed to lie to everyone about the source of their information, we will never know for sure, will we?

[ConservativeDemocrat]

53. From the very article you cited...

SOD'S BIG SUCCESSES

The unit also played a major role in a 2008 DEA sting in Thailand against Russian arms dealer Viktor Bout; he was sentenced in 2011 to 25 years in prison on charges of conspiring to sell weapons to the Colombian rebel group FARC. The SOD also recently coordinated Project Synergy, a crackdown against manufacturers, wholesalers and retailers of synthetic designer drugs that spanned 35 states and resulted in 227 arrests.

Since its inception, the SOD's mandate has expanded to include narco-terrorism, organized crime and gangs. A DEA spokesman declined to comment on the unit's annual budget. A recent LinkedIn posting on the personal page of a senior SOD official estimated it to be $125 million.

Wiretap tips forwarded by the SOD usually come from foreign governments, U.S. intelligence agencies or court-authorized domestic phone recordings. Because warrantless eavesdropping on Americans is illegal, tips from intelligence agencies are generally not forwarded to the SOD until a caller's citizenship can be verified, according to one senior law enforcement official and one former U.S. military intelligence analyst.

So what's going on here is that when a Mexican drug lord calls a U.S. citizen to order a hit on another U.S. citizen, this SOD group finds a way to be in the place where the hit is supposed to go down. And they can do this, because Mexican drug lords are not protected by the US Constitution.

YOUR VERY QUOTED ARTICLE DISPROVES THE POINT YOU'RE TRYING TO MAKE

[Th1onein]

55. Meh, you know better than that.

What puts that to the lie is that the IRS is also getting the info. Who pays taxes under IRS law? Americans, that's who.

Tell me: Do you really expect liars to tell the truth?

[ConservativeDemocrat]

80. So you're saying government isn't the solution, it's the problem?

And the scariest phrase in the English language are "I'm from the government and I"m here to help" ?

Thank you for voting Democratic, but your reflexive hatred of the U.S. government make you sound like a Republican.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[Th1onein]

81. Is that what I said? No, I think Raygun said that.

And just where do you get that I have a "reflexive hatred of the U.S. government"? Wow, aren't you stretching things just a bit?

Do I hate the government because they are spying on me? No. On the converse, if I love the government, then it's okay for them to spy on me? No. The government has it's place, but it's not in the middle of Americans' privacy. You know better than that.

You know, you'd get farther if you actually posed an honest argument. But, then, I don't think that serves your purpose, does it?

[idwiyo]

2. k&r Noooo! Who would have guessed!

[riderinthestorm]

3. Another news agency sadly misinformed that Snowdens leak

Revealed legal activities (spying on Americans in the US), and that this activity was well-known long before stupid traitorous Snowden and narcissistic Greenwald exposed it.

Or something like that.

As I've been told 5 times already today by the authoritarian crowd.

K&R

[sabrina 1]

4. It feels good to have your 'conspiracy theories' confrimed. From the start, many of us knew they

not stopping terror, the REASON they use to get those Billions of Dollars for the Private 'Security Contractors'.

And as more and more information emerged, and I know I have suggested this many times since it was hard to figure out WHY they were breaking the law this way, it became more and more clear they were using it for Businesses. All that data can be very useful for Big Corporations and to think, they get it all at the huge expense of the Tax Payers.

I also think that what they are so desperate to hide is any evidence of them providing Big Corps with 'data' from the 'collection' to provide them with a 'target audience' for their products.

But we do know now another way they were using it, according to Binney they are 'sharing the data with LOCAL, STATE and FEDERAL officials, ON AMERICANS and that some people have been arrested based on that data without being told where it came from.

I wonder if anyone is making money from the sale of this data? I would not be one bit surprised.

[randome]

5. It seems the question to ask, however, is does it aid in any investigations.

If it doesn't even do that, then what was the point? (And no, I don't believe the NSA is blackmailing the world.)
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[rhett o rick]

7. They helped get Eliot Spitzer out of office.

Other than yourself, no one is claiming the NSA is blackmailing the world. That's called a S T R A W M A N.

It's hard to see reality when one has their eyes closed and fingers in their ears.

[randome]

8. Plenty of DUers have said the NSA is blackmailing everyone to stay quiet. Including the President.

It's not quite a straw man to point that out. And I doubt phone metadata had anything to do with Eliot Spitzer hiring prostitutes.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[Ichingcarpenter]

13. If the Blackmail is effective

then we may never know.

[rhett o rick]

17. Where it's absurd to say that the NSA is blackmailing everyone, it's not absurd to

speculate that with the power the NSA has, they might be putting pressure on some key people. You see, we might be able to rationalize "putting pressure" on some people to a degree. For example, lobbying is "putting pressure" on people. I bet if lobbyists could get some "interesting" data on people, it would make their job much easier. This is politics and business. Profits and power out weigh ethics every day.

I wish we lived in a world where everyone acted nice like you believe. I believe that illegal spying was used to catch Spitzer. And to rationalize that he was a bad boy and deserved to pay the price, avoids the issue. If the government can spy on everyone, then they can pick and choose who they expose. And they most likely will use that power to push their agenda.

[Ichingcarpenter]

18. The blackmail may entail rewards too

'If you reveal our illegal ways we will destroy you'' However "If you play along with us you will be rewarded with a lucrative job at Boz Allen or such''

[rhett o rick]

28. Not just Booz Allen, but Booz Allen may contact Exxon or GE and provide them "data" that they

might use. You dont have to whisper in a back room to participate in conspiracy.

[JDPriestly]

24. And Anthony Wiener and John Edwards and, and, and . . .

[rhett o rick]

29. And those that we suspect are most likely the tip of the iceberg. Spitzer probably told whoever

contacted him to f-off. But how many Spitzers didnt tell them to f-off, and just "went along"?

[geek tragedy]

33. Do you know the "official story" of how Spitzer got caught? nt

[rhett o rick]

41. Yes and it sounded very much like what Bill Binney talks about in this article:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4197266

All of the information gained by the NSA through spying is then shared with federal, state and local agencies, and they are using that information to prosecute petty crimes such as drugs and taxes. The agencies are instructed to intentionally “launder” the information gained through spying, i.e. to pretend that they got the information in a more legitimate way … and to hide that from defense attorneys and judges.

Spitzer was a real pain in the ass of the administration and they had a lot to gain with him neutralized.

[geek tragedy]

46. Actually, he got busted doing something really stupid in person at a bank,

not the Internet.

http://gawker.com/5520738/how-a-group-of-bank-employees-brought-down-new-yorks-hooker+loving-ex+governor

According to the story, officials at North Fork Bank (now Capital One) filed a Suspicious Activity Report with the feds when Spitzer had asked the bank to omit his name and account number from a $5,000 wire transfer. That, the bank contended, would have been money laundering(!), so instead they asked Spitzer to explain his need for secrecy. North Fork didn't like his vague answer ("to pay a personal expense&quot , so they donned their Deerstalkers and investigated!

Turns out the would-be wire recipient was a company called QAT Consulting Group, which happened to also own a North Fork bank account and was actually a shell company for Emperors Club VIP, the escort service Spitzer patronized at the eventual cost of his job and political career.

Bank officials started investigating QAT, and their Google-fu — the bank's report says it used "Lexis/Nexis" and "Internet searches" — turned up bogus addresses; a sketchy website; incoming wire transfers and AmEx credits totaling $209,990; and 66 checks paid to "a doctor, an acupuncturist, a recruiter in the entertainment industry, an adult film star and a Belgium musician," totaling $81,067.

Having worked a summer doing compliance at a bank (pre-9/11!) , I can tell you that what Spitzer did was guaranteed to draw further scrutiny. Had he just left his name and account number on the wire, he probably would have not been caught.

[rhett o rick]

47. Rationalization is the key to happiness, eh? nm

[geek tragedy]

48. No, it's called choosing facts over conspiracy theories

Thanks for the snide comment without any substance to back it up, btw.

[rhett o rick]

51. How open minded is it to assume that only you know the "facts"?

And apparently you never doubt the "official story". Do you really think things are always as they appear? That the government never lies? Those are rationalizations. How is it snide to point out those rationalizations. I think too many Americans buy what they are sold by the media. I believe in healthy skepticism and reject blind faith.

[geek tragedy]

56. You need to bring something to the table in order

to claim to be opposing blind faith.

When you snidely reject evidence without providing any reason to reject it, or any evidence to support your own theory, you're the one peddling faith, not reason.

Thus far, all you have provided is conspiracy theory allegations with no substantive support, and you have sneered at the facts that contradict your conspiracy theory.

The balance of the facts weigh against you, so you dismiss facts as 'rationalizations.'

That is textbook "epistemic closure" and it's the kind of thing that lead to "unskewed polls" amongst rightwingers in 2012.

[rhett o rick]

59. You make a good case. I just dont trust powerful entities. I dont trust official stories.

I see people hurting and the wealthy growing wealthier. I believe that money will buy power and I believe that agencies like the CIA, NSA and FBI are too powerful maybe to the point of out of control. We have been losing wealth, power and liberties, and it has to stop. It seems to me that it isnt coincidental that many of those that speak truth to power end up neutralized. I fear for Sen Warren.

Have a good holidays.

[geek tragedy]

60. Happy Holidays to you as well.

I don't disagree with anything you write there.

(I love that Sarah Palin hates it when I wish someone of good will "happy holidays&quot

[geek tragedy]

32. John Edwards knocked his mistress up. Weiner broadcast a picture of his d!ck to the entire

planet on Twitter.

They are not victims of some grand conspiracy, just their own vanity and stupidity.

[RC]

49. Yep, that proves that the NSA is on the up and up and is not engaged in any unlawful activity.

Correct? Yeah sure, and Alice in Wonderland is a true story.

[geek tragedy]

52. No, it proves that the NSA didn't bring those two clowns down, try

reading more closely next time

[RC]

57. Then why did you post it, if the NSA wasn't involved?

Kinda distract from the subject, don'tcha think?

[geek tragedy]

58. I said read more closely.

Someone claimed the NSA was behind not only Spitzer (which is also crazy talk) but also Weiner and John Edwards's misfortunes.

I rebutted that claim.

Not sure what part of that dynamic is too complex for you to follow.

[JDPriestly]

62. I could be wrong, but I believe I read that John Edwards' problems became public due to a review

of his Verizon phone records by someone. As for Weiner, we don't know how his antics reached the attention of the right-wing website that published the news about him.

[geek tragedy]

64. No, the National Enquirer broke the story on Edwards.

There were a number of people who knew in his inner circle, and moreover the woman he impregnated was not a model of discretion.

Nothing re: Verizon records.

Weiner was sloppy--on his Twitter account he followed a bunch of hotties. Not subtle at all. Plenty of wingnuts with nothing to do but obsess over Democrats' Twitter feeds.

[bvar22]

6. DURec for Wider Distribution

[font size=4]NSA program stopped no terror attacks, says White House panel[/font]


[font size=3]''These programs were never about terrorism: they're about economic spying, social control, and diplomatic manipulation. They're about power. '' [/font]

[Swede Atlanta]

15. Absolutely.....

this was never about preventing terrorism - this was all about power and control.

The PNAC gang wanted to establish American hegemony in the Middle East but they, a la Nixon, wanted to be able to control and quell any domestic opposition to their plans.

The horror of 9-11, whether a conspiracy or "allowed to happen" was perfect to tee up the expansion of the fascist state. They could now justify continued expansion of surveillance, rendition, etc. by using the word "terrorism".

The DINOs (e.g. Feinstein) were going to go along with the PNAC crowd because they largely shared many of the PNAC's objectives. Others, including BO, realized that in order for them to deflect the attacks from the fascists, they had to go along with it.

This is no different in many respects than what happened in Nazi Germany or Stalinist Soviet Union.

Hopefully Congress takes appropriate action to ratchet back the NSA's overreach but I am not optimistic.

Why? Because the NSA has all the dirt on them and can "hurt" them if they don't toe the line.

[JDPriestly]

23. Thanks, Swede Atlanta. I agree with you.

[bvar22]

26. Agree.

SEE: The Nationally Co-Ordinated suppression and disruption of the peaceful OWS protests.

[grahamhgreen]

9. Until we stopped the NSA:)

[Demeter]

16. Don't count your NSA chickens

until you've got chicken soup in the pot...and you watched it being made.

[rhett o rick]

10. The more terrorist attacks that happen, the more power and funding the spy agencies get.

And if you are really skeptical, you might suppose that in lean times, maybe, just maybe, some borderline wackos might get the encouragement to do something stupid.

[JDPriestly]

22. You mean like more anthrax attacks? Horrors. Don't give anyone ideas.

[rhett o rick]

43. What anthrax attacks? The history books will show that there were no terrorist attacks during

Bushco years. The wealthy write the history books.

[JDPriestly]

63. You may be right about the history books. You are right about who writes the history books.

[rhett o rick]

65. Smart businessmen today hire someone to keep their Wikipedia page "clean". nm

[Ranchemp.]

11. Well that can't be true,

after all, Sen. Dianne Feinstein said that terrorist plots were thwarted because of the NSA's phone data collection program.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/09/dianne-feinstein-nsa_n_3412026.html

But the committee chairman, Democratic Dianne Feinstein of California, contends the program helped disrupt a 2009 plot to bomb New York City's subways and played a role in the case against an American who scouted targets in Mumbai, India, before a deadly terrorist attack there in 2008.

Just in case it's needed.

[randome]

12. I would think 'played a role' is different from 'stopped a terrorist attack'.

I'm surprised a journalist didn't think of asking about more than straight-forward terrorist attacks.

It sounds like a useful tool to have at their disposal. It makes sense to query the data to see if co-conspirators can be found. And that's the same as in any law enforcement operation -you look at friends and acquaintances of a suspect or known criminal to see if there is more to uncover.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

[JDPriestly]

21. It seems "useful" for those in the government who have a totalitarian mindset.

[ronnie624]

76. It's unlikely it even played a role,

considering the improbability of a terrorist attack, to begin with. The energy and resources devoted to the 'war on terror' and the intrusive surveillance of US citizens, are totally out of proportion to the threat posed by terrorism. Your fears are completely unfounded. Human civilization would gain so much more, if these efforts and resources were invested, instead, in the development of sustainable sources of energy.

[alp227]

14. In other news, fire burns. nt

[cantbeserious]

19. Touche

eom

[JDPriestly]

20. K&R.

[2banon]

25. Say it again?

economic spying, social control, and diplomatic manipulation. They're about power

Period. eom.

[MisterP]

27. now the question is, why admit this? what's been already done that it's too late to undo

with this information in hand?

they confirmed telling Iran to delay the hostages' release until Reagan's inauguration--admitting it once he was dead

[Dopers_Greed]

30. It's not about stopping terrorism

It's about suppressing any resistance to the corptocracy

[blkmusclmachine]

35. You betcha! Kinda like Obama's 30,000 armed Drones patrolling US skies...we're the "terr'ists" now.

[malaise]

31. But the terror attacks gave and give the NSA

Way more power than they need

[blkmusclmachine]

34. Didn't stop the Boston Marathon bombers, but that isn't the NSA's Prime Directive, now, is it???

[Rex]

36. No way! You mean people lied to me...but for what reason!?

"Under the NSA program, first revealed by ex-contractor Edward Snowden, the agency collects in bulk the records of the time and duration of phone calls made by persons inside the United States."

I was Nancy Graced that they are not keeping calls made by persons inside the US! OMG! Why would anyone lie about that? Gee, I cannot even think of ONE reason people would lie about that...nope...not ONE reason!

[frylock]

38. well no shit. they couldn't even prevent the boston marathon bombing..

even after a hot tip from pooty-poot.

[Jackpine Radical]

39. This sort of information is extremely useful in maintaining control over a dissident population.

There are so many esoteric laws in the country that it is said that most of us break major laws every day. If the Corporate State wants to take any individual off the playing board, all they have to do is find something to prosecute. Or, for that matter, plant something to prosecute. Or find information that can be twisted into having the appearance of something blackmail-worthy.

I don't know the details of Spitzer's takedown, but we surely can imagine who might have been finding his continued activities to be annoying.

Then there was the Scott Ritter case, where they found a weakness and kept setting up internet stings until they got him on the third try.

[WillyT]

40. K & R !!!

[whatchamacallit]

42. "Such a surprise!"

"Guess we better drop the 'necessary to save us' rationale and work the 'metadata is no big deal' angle".

- A. Woodchuck

[ConservativeDemocrat]

45. Clearly, the NSA needs to step up their program then...

From the article quoted:

He also said one reason the telephone records program is not effective is because, contrary to the claims of critics, it actually does not collect a record of every American’s phone call. Although the NSA does collect metadata from major telecommunications carriers such as Verizon and AT&T, there are many smaller carriers from which it collects nothing. Asked if the NSA was collecting the records of 75 percent of phone calls, an estimate that has been used in briefings to Congress , Stone said the real number was classified but “not anything close to that” and far lower.

It's hilarious to see people who are dead set against the NSA's existence quoting articles that say its biggest problem is that it isn't scooping up as much information as it should be.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

[Waiting For Everyman]

50. Duh, but good to see acknowledged for a change.

NSA's ubiquitous spying didn't stop the Boston Bombing, for one, even though it surely should have.

Our military also wasn't capable of launching any defense at all against the 9/11 attacks "on our own soil", so the entire Pentagon and its mini-me agencies and contractors is another gigantic total loss, of a similar kind.

Could it be, that no one in authority has noticed how ineffectual these agencies are? I doubt it. I think it's much more likely, as the OP's Snowden quote said, that it's simply common knowledge that these agencies have an entirely different agenda than their stated purpose -- a corporate agenda, and a social control agenda.

(It also reminds me of the hilarious Congressional committee hearing I watched in the 90s, an all-out grilling into why the CIA didn't know about the fall of the USSR in advance, and why the agency shouldn't be disbanded in light of that fact. The unabashed whining and sniveling by Bob Gates was unbelievable, along the lines of "please don't shut us down, we couldn't help it". It's funny, but very sad too for us the people. Such abject failure is now commonplace and disregarded as the expected norm.)

Clearly if results mattered at all, that whole intel-defense sector of the government wouldn't exist by now.

[treestar]

54. How many real terrorist attacks are there?

Yet we seem to demand the government prevent them. And they probably can't. But it's a demand we as citizens seem to make. They have to look like they are "doing something." I recall the years after 911. It was all about how the government was to connect the dots, make itself more efficient, keep out foreigners who intended to make attacks. If people want to change their minds about that, fine, but why sit around condemning those who were, at the time, doing what everyone wanted?

It was the citizenry, excited by the media, that demanded to know why 911 happened and blamed the government as much as it blamed the hijackers. It seems to be a thing in this country to find ways to spread the circle of blame.

[Blue_Tires]

61. The NSA isn't designed to "stop terror" any more than

the "war on drugs" is supposed to stop drugs...

[ctsnowman]

75. Nailed it.

[JackRiddler]

66. So what is the NSA really for?

Already back in October, the only example they presented in detail of supposed successes in stopping terrorist plots turned out to be one where human intelligence did the job. It turned out NSA surveillance had nothing to do with catching the suspects in that case.

If that was the best they could do - you gotta wonder how they couldn't manufacture anything better, but it was basically an act of contempt, another fuck-you to us, like: We're full of bullshit but people believe us anyway, what are you going to do about it?

But that prompts a key question:

So what is the NSA for?

(Spontaneous notes)

(1) Among other things, it's an industrial policy. For ideological reasons, the U.S. pretense is that the government does not subsidize technological development, that this is one of the worst Sins Against Capitalism. Now this is a tough one, since of course government has always subsidized R&D and that's how most R&D happens in the capitalist and imperialist powers, whatever our myths of lone geniuses and courageous private entrepreneurs. So we have outfits like NSA and DARPA to develop computing and telephony (going back to the Bell Labs days) and eventually spawning (directly or indirectly) the basis for www, Oracle, Google, Facebook, etc.

And so industrial policy, an indispensable component of modern capitalism (which according to ideology is a European-Chinese sin only, we just have a "market" do everything by magic) is implemented in the form of a so-called "security agency" that subsidizes industries but does not actually provide any security. (In fact, it's part of a larger apparatus that makes enemies, and if it doesn't make enough of those, it makes them up.)

And what is the particular technology that is being developed?

(2) A general surveillance apparatus of Americans, Earthians and all of their businesses and corporations, with all of the power and benefits for those who have access to it that such an apparatus implies.

While:

(3) Making a lot of money for the contractors and, importantly, their executives and consultants, who are recruited through the revolving door after an early retirement from "service," so that it becomes a massive self-licking ice-cream cone, the equal of Wall Street in corruption and self-deceiving justifications - and, fatally, power, fully unaccountable power - plus all those wonderful jobs jobs jobs to justify it.

And

(4) Because like any institution it's got to have an internal morality or religion, and because this is going to have to be a lie (since it is a primarily superfluous and parasitic institution) it turns into, along with the rest of the "intelligence" and "security" and "homeland" "communities," a dictatorship over a separate, extraconstitutional realm of government -- a parallel state that provides "security" against "enemies" and is expected to break the rules and "Do business with unsavory characters." With a nearly totalitarian ideology in place that most of them always believe and usually become fanatic about. Everything they do is justified and much worse will be justified besides, because all this is for America to survive through a perpetual death-match with World Communism.

Sorry, terrorism. I meant world terrorism. Communism, where did that come from?

[woo me with science]

70. Now THIS should be an OP.

[JackRiddler]

82. Okay, so it is.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024215519

Thanks.

[woo me with science]

83. Excellent. :)

Responded and recced.

[Hestia]

78. Great post. Also, I think (!), that is to keep a lid on info coming from the Legislature & WH

workers, "leaking" info that we really need to know, up to and including Global Warming and Fukushima & Chernobyl (which is still spewing out radiation (yes, I know there are different types, but it is the horrible one's of which I speak).

They do not want to allow anyone to let us know just how horrible things really are, and somehow, someway get a Senator or Congressperson to swear a secrecy oath above their Constitutional Oath. HTFH is that possible?

I think, though, it is no longer working. People are starting to wake up and this christmas retail season is reflecting that. This was suppose to be the bell weather season for people to loosen up their checkbooks and start spending massively. People are keeping things longer now than any other time since the Depression. Say you have a gas cooking stove and one of the burners doesn't work, people are working around that now instead of replacing that. Appliance manufacturers have dollar signs in their eyes thinking people will start replacing old appliances next year, just because I guess. Problem is, who can afford it, other than if the appliance just quits working?

What is really really bad, the info they want to keep contained, is economic and we all know it is bullshit. We are still to to this day living out the policies of the 1980's, just on steroids.

We all know the Agent Mike's here and on other sites monitoring what people have to say in general and it probably is alarming because it ain't the Teabaggers who have them concerned, it's the rest of us. They are doing all things possible to keep the 1930's & 1960's from playing out - changing our system to a true Scandinavian Style Socialism, which is what people truly want. So they keep everyone in check by thinking they are spying on them and getting out and really talking to other people and changing things for the better.

Again we are seeing the Dark Side doing everything they can to stay in power but they are losing inch by slow inch. It's taking too long and people want change NOW. This is their way to keeping a lid on things changing for the better - if it does they lose out. There is a loud grumbling in the ranks and it is getting too loud.

[Uncle Joe]

67. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, Ichingcarpenter.

[Enthusiast]

68. NSA = money well spent

[woo me with science]

69. Oh, go back to your yacht.

[L0oniX]

71. But but but ...it's a job creator. Pffft ...more like an employment subsidy.

This is one huge scam bilking the US tax payers so assholes who have no respect for the constitution can make money.

[valerief]

72. Yeah, but it probably stopped/created a shitload of American policy changes by the

WH and Congress.

[cantbeserious]

73. NSA Is Not About Terrorism - It Is About Control - The Total Information Awareness Program On Steroids

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_Awareness_Office

[nadinbrzezinski]

74. I am shocked, SHOCKED I tell you.

[PowerToThePeople]

77. I love these threads

It very distinctly separates those that truly belong on Democratic Underground and those that need to go off and start Totalitarian Underground.

[DirkGently]

79. But we haven't seen any *pterodactyl* attacks,

have we?

Good enough for me.