More Thoughts on Woo - and How Doctors Don't Take Women Seriously
Last edited Fri Dec 20, 2013, 11:35 PM - Edit history (2)
Okay, earlier this week I had my little hissy fit about the whole "no need to investigate and stop wasting money on vitamins" editorial (based on bad studies), and shared my own experience with *trying* to get something investigated. Many of you were extremely supportive - THANK YOU.
I have had a lot of time to think about why these issues (nutrient deficiencies) aren't being more thoroughly investigated and why everything has to be either a "disease" or a "genetic disorder" (which completely ignores the role nutrients plays in turning certain genes on/off - but, whatever), and also why medicine is truthfully still as much of an Art as a Science, and here is what I have come up with - your mileage may vary, and I would like to stress this is my opinion, and limited to my own knowledge and experience.
Back in the 1800s almost half of our population was involved in agriculture; by the year 2000 that number was at 3%. And only "rich people" could afford medical training back in the day, and realistically, how many rich men were involved in taking care of the livestock on the family farm? The farm, after all, was pretty far away from the city where the schools were, so think it through.
I've used the "when your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail" analogy before, and I think it applies to nutritional issues, too (on both sides of the discussion). If you know any people involved in training as physicians, ask them (for example) if they have time to garden. After they finish laughing at you, ask them when the last time they fertilized their lawns was (if they even *have* lawns). Master Gardeners (of which I am *NOT* one) are probably already smiling; feeding your lawn a decent blend of N-P-K (nitrogen-phosphorus-potassium) affects how quickly it grows, the color, the strength of the root system, and its ability to combat drought/disease (among other things). These micronutrients are essential to healthy plant systems, and there is a ton of information out there about how to calculate the "best" percentages depending on your goal.
The same concept goes for animal husbandry. How many physicians do you know who have time to pay attention to the health of livestock while undergoing medical residency or actually practicing medicine? Nowadays we have a lot of companies providing "ready mixes", but a hundred years ago farmers were still mixing their own; screw it up, and you lost money. But again, this is not something most modern day medical students really have to deal with (although I am sure there are a few out there).
I probably don't need to discuss the challenges of getting women into the medical field, do I? Shockingly, many historical "female problems" were simply not taken seriously by male physicians ( 
) and some pretty common medications involved opium and alcohol. Apparently we just imagined problems a lot, and at least that shut us up. See the wrong gynecologist, and you may still get this attitude - I did back in the 80s.
So we have a profession that does a lot of good, but is not really in touch with "how to grow a healthy pig" (for example) with a long history of dismissing concerns that haven't been personally experienced by the practitioners themselves, all puffed up and proud because they are "scientists", and anyone who doesn't follow the same path to reach the same conclusions is easily dismissed as a practitioner of "woo"; to be fair, this is an age old battle - midwife versus medieval physician, still replayed to this day.
And here is where I fight my little anti-fury battles, because I *get* the mindset that comes with the discipline they practice. I do not have the training to hold myself a little separate from the children in my project - their success and failure hits me at a level I cannot explain. It is not my normal. It feels like an unpleasant place to be, and I have not accepted it as "my home" for the duration of my career. To be honest, I would like the "Preemie Growth Project" to just go away in a few years because the mission should be accomplished with this getting investigated and implemented where appropriate. (Seriously - work for free, and see how quickly YOU want to work yourself out of a job! Lol!)
But then I get angry again, because WOMEN (and what we report) STILL AREN'T TAKEN SERIOUSLY. Let me give you an example --
One of the most common laments of the preemie mother is "my baby won't eat or gain weight." This is one of the scariest things a parent deals with -- when your child is "failure to thrive", and you *know* something isn't right because they aren't eating, you get anxious. You ask the doctor for help. You talk to everyone. You freak out. And when you are watching your child "not eat or grow or meet milestones", You *KNOW* Something Isn't Right.
The doctors initially double check to make sure you aren't a moron, or someone who is abusing / neglecting your child, then they assure you it is normal. The moms know better. Some of them do stupid stuff - one mom I know started feeding her child lard with sugar in it to help her child gain weight - and some just force feed their kid. Most spend time crying. If your child doesn't eat, as mammals we know our babies will die, and every bite becomes a battle, every calorie a victory - if the only thing your son will eat is chicken nuggets (for the sensory moms), then by God! your child can have as many nuggets as he wants!
The Mayo Clinic says:
Zinc deficiency - Zinc deficiency is caused by inadequate intake or absorption, increased zinc excretion, or increased bodily need for zinc. Zinc deficiency symptoms include growth retardation, hair loss, diarrhea, delayed sexual maturation, impotence, eye and skin conditions, and loss of appetite. Additional symptoms may include weight loss, delayed wound healing, taste changes, and mental lethargy. Zinc can be measured in plasma, red blood cells, white blood cells, and hair. http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/zinc/NS_patient-zinc/DSECTION=evidence
I am using Zinc because it is easy. Physicians already know premature babies are at increased risk for trace mineral deficiencies because it is in their textbooks and the neonatologists prescribe intravenous TPN to correct for it. NOTE: If you are missing one of the trace minerals, odds are good you are missing more that we don't know how to measure - this is for example purposes only, so don't diagnose yourself based on this post, okay? INVESTIGATE IF YOU ARE CONCERNED!
Back in 2007 when I started supplementing my babies with the trace minerals, the first thing I noticed was they started eating like little pigs and gaining *healthy* muscular weight like crazy. Prior to this, coaxing them to drink 30 mls of formula was an absolute battle, and it could take more than half an hour to get that small amount into them every three hours as instructed; when they started eating like "normal" babies, they sucked those bottles DOWN quickly and demanded more.
They ate, they grew, they got healthy.
While I was doing my research for the Project, I ran across this little gem --
Col-late Piglet Kick-Start - "An immediate available source of glucose, B vitamins, vitamins A, D and E, amino acids and trace minerals (emphasis mine) providing a nutritional boost for runts and poor doers. PIGLET KICK-START ensures that the weak piglet receives rapid assimilation of energy and nutrients as the essential ingredients are shunted directly into the bloodstream across the stomach wall. Marked improvement will be evident in minutes." http://www.hyperdrug.co.uk/Col-late-Piglet-Kick-Start-100ml-50-doses/productinfo/COL9008269/
So let me get this straight: when the mother of a fragile newborn tells a doctor "my baby won't eat!" she's imagining things, but when a RUNT PIGLET won't eat, farmers have a nutritional product ON THEIR SHELVES that "provides a nutritional boost for runts and poor doers" that has been used FOR DECADES?
Bonus - it has zinc in it.
The health of my children was a woman's problem; my husband worked while I stayed home for the first year of their life, and my observations of my own children's growth are dismissed (including here on DU, by the way), despite heavy non-biased documentation by both their pediatrician and a NICU follow-up clinic, as purely "anecdotal". Not one of the organizations you would think would be interested (March of Dimes? ROFLMA!) has sat down with me to interview me to determine why the results my children achieved happened, or to verify whether what we did could be repeated. Anything I have to say is...not relevant. I am a reasonably intelligent college educated woman, but I am *not* a doctor.
But runt piglets -- ah, runt piglets who have no energy / won't eat, THAT can't be "bad mothering" so the veterinarians and the farmers actually INVESTIGATED the NUTRITIONAL NEEDS behind WHAT GIVES BABY PIGS THE ENERGY TO EAT AND NOT DIE, provided it, discovered it worked, and have been using it for DECADES???
Didn't someone figure out people are mammals, too, like a hundred years or so ago?
We were lucky. I heard that line so many times I started spitting it out. LUCKY. Yep, LUCKY. Or "blessed". That was another line - "you should be counting your blessings!" (I do - trust me, I do!) Both minimize my experience. Both DENY my reality. Both DISMISS what I report - and that was even before the good portion of my journey began.
Healthy babies eat and grow. Failure to thrive babies have poor appetite, don't grow and are at increased risk for further health problems. And LUCK doesn't need to be investigated.
Food and babies are women's purview; it isn't "science" like runt pigs are science. Women things aren't taken as seriously, and the reports of those who care for children are obviously biased. Bottles and poopy diapers (input and output!) are not seen as "measurable data" -- if the baby won't eat, it is obviously the mom's fault (or so we tell ourselves). It is one of the many reasons I think "correctable nutritional deficiency" was totally missed BY MALE PHYSICIANS as a cause of neuromuscular problems for 50+ years, just like autism used to be blamed on mothers, or having sex on a holy day was obviously why children were born with problems we now know are related to Vitamin B9 (folic acid) deficiency or why tens of thousand of women died because physicians who didn't believe in germs wouldn't wash their hands, or an african american lab technician who invented heart surgery worked for a white guy who took all the credit.
Do I sound bitter? How about "aware" of my current reality? The rise of the expert makes it easy to ignore me when I beg for an investigation.
But....
If you don't know what it takes to make your grass green, and you don't know what your cows eat to make milk taste sweet, and you don't know how or why the contents of the quality "animal chow" has increased the life expectancy of your own dog, how can I honestly expect you to know what the FUCK you are talking about when it comes to nutritional issues with a premature baby?
Oh. You're a doctor. Got it.
I'm a mom.
And I'm LUCKY.
End Rant. Thank you for reading.
= new reply since forum marked as read
Thank you Ida
Think I'm on to something, I mean.
Egotistical uppity non-doctor woman that I am, I really think this is a big deal.
I mean, how dare I READ and then (gasp!) attempt to put logical thoughts together? Comparing livestock to babies - the horror!
Why land's sakes, next thing you know I'll be insisting my daughter be given the same opportunities as a BOY!
(swoons onto the nearest fainting couch)
(I kid, obviously. Appreciate your support! Still a lot of work to be done, and writing the stupid report SUCKS.)
shows how ANTI-peer review I am.
Except there have already been studies conducted that showed exactly what I am saying already but it isn't being applied -
30 years ago, researchers found that “(p)reterm infants grew better when formula, human milk, or banked human milk was supplemented with protein and minerals”. - Atkinson, S. A., Bryan, M. H. & Anderson G.H. (1981) Human milk feeding in premature infants: protein, fat, and carbohydrate balances in the first two weeks of life. J. Pediatr. 99: 617–624.
and
The results of a study by O’Conner, et al., in 2007 suggest that “adding a multinutrient fortifier to approximately one half of the milk provided to predominantly human milk–fed infants for 12 weeks after hospital discharge may be an effective strategy in addressing early discharge nutrient deficits and poor growth”. - O'Conner, D. L., et al. (2007) Pediatrics, Vol. 121 No. 4, pp. 766-776.
and of course
“(preemies) are at increased risk for developing trace mineral deficiencies... because accretion of trace minerals takes place during the last trimester of pregnancy." - Guandalini, S., ed. (2004) Textbook of Pediatric Gastroenterology and Nutrition. Taylor and Francis, London.
Anti science. Whatever.
"You don't need to take vitamins and minerals as supplements because they don't work (using flawed study design)" is getting a lot of play.
Ever notice "you don't need to take erectile dysfunction medications if you don't suffer from erectile dysfunction" doesn't get the same play? Or how about "don't take transplant medications if you aren't a transplant patient!" Ooh - what about "non-diabetics shouldn't take diabetes medicines?"
Nitwits. I'm sticking with nitwits.
If you looked at the three studies that the Journal Folk who set me off earlier this week did, you will notice some missing data points with the biggies being "how were the people in the study deemed to be suffering from a deficiency such that supplementation might benefit them" and "how were levels of absorption measured" being super easy questions.
There are more, of course - how did they control for diet, family history, level of deficiency, and side effects from medications that negatively impact efficacy (see my little sub-rant on miralax).
Answer: They didn't. They just told people to stop wasting their money because a healthy diet (which these people were obviously not adherents of otherwise they wouldn't have been having health problems per the "you brought this on yourself" mentality) was more than adequate instead of checking into these things, and doing some analysis.
Now, I'm a small non-profit, and the people helping me out are by and large parents of special needs children, so we KNOW we are missing information (which my fantasies say will be answered by The Wise White Coated Science Lords) but blithely telling people to "stop wasting money and there is no need for further investigation" makes my head hurt.
There is a small experiment recommended for elementary school students - you take a multi-vitamin, and put it in a glass with some water and a splash of white vinegar. If it hasn't dissolved in 24 hours, your body is pooping the little pills out, especially if you are taking medications for reflux or constipation. Guess what? There are brands out there that *will* digest, and you can also use liquid brands, too. And some people have the stomach to digest the "power pooper pills" so controlling for that is important.
And some people don't have deficiency issues while others (like chemo patients) do, and some people eat healthy, so they get appropriate nutrition, while others who eat like crap might be brought up to "normal" by minor correction.
I get sarcastic because I have been thinking about this WAY too much. And no one pays me for this - I do it for free.
I'm sticking with Nitwits. They have offended me, but since I am not one of their "peers" I am ranting about it on DU.
"People don't need vitamins" - do you know how difficult it can be to get past that level of ignorance spouted by a supposed authority without all of the caveats that they didn't put in - like how many people actually are being helped by this stuff?
Oh. They don't see those patients, since they don't come into the office, and they Don't Get Sick.
Coincidence. Nothing but coincidence. Or willfully blind ignorance.
I'm ranting again. Sigh. And I've probably just confused you more. Sorry. 
Thanks for sharing. I did not know all that about babies that don't 'thrive.' Very interesting. And sadly not surprising that the mother is often blamed for being a bad mother. 
I believe in vitamins. I should be more consistent in taking mine. 
I don't know HOW my poor little brain managed to put these thoughts together with punctuation and such --- I should apologize to all the "anti-woo" folk for daring to share such frivolous things as my (embarrassed titter) thought processes!
Love this post - thank you!
How about those crazy folks at NIH?
http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Zinc-HealthProfessional/#en39
Zinc Dietary Fact Sheet
Introduction
Zinc is an essential mineral that is naturally present in some foods, added to others, and available as a dietary supplement. Zinc is also found in many cold lozenges and some over-the-counter drugs sold as cold remedies.
(snip)
Zinc Deficiency
Zinc deficiency is characterized by growth retardation, loss of appetite, and impaired immune function. In more severe cases, zinc deficiency causes hair loss, diarrhea, delayed sexual maturation, impotence, hypogonadism in males, and eye and skin lesions (2,8,24,25). Weight loss, delayed healing of wounds, taste abnormalities, and mental lethargy can also occur (5,8,26-30).Many of these symptoms are non-specific and often associated with other health conditions; therefore, a medical examination is necessary to ascertain whether a zinc deficiency is present.
Zinc nutritional status is difficult to measure adequately using laboratory tests (2,31,32) due to its distribution throughout the body as a component of various proteins and nucleic acids (33). Plasma or serum zinc levels are the most commonly used indices for evaluating zinc deficiency, but these levels do not necessarily reflect cellular zinc status due to tight homeostatic control mechanisms (8). Clinical effects of zinc deficiency can be present in the absence of abnormal laboratory indices (8). Clinicians consider risk factors (such as inadequate caloric intake, alcoholism, and digestive diseases) and symptoms of zinc deficiency (such as impaired growth in infants and children) when determining the need for zinc supplementation (2).
(snip)
Pregnant and lactating women
Pregnant women, particularly those starting their pregnancy with marginal zinc status, are at increased risk of becoming zinc insufficient due, in part, to high fetal requirements for zinc (39).Lactation can also deplete maternal zinc stores (40). For these reasons, the RDA for zinc is higher for pregnant and lactating women than for other women (see Table 1) (2).
Older infants who are exclusively breastfed
Breast milk provides sufficient zinc (2 mg/day) for the first 4–6 months of life but does not provide recommended amounts of zinc for infants aged 7–12 months, who need 3 mg/day (2,33). In addition to breast milk, infants aged 7–12 months should consume age-appropriate foods or formula containing zinc (2). Zinc supplementation has improved the growth rate in some children who demonstrate mild-to-moderate growth failure and who have a zinc deficiency (24,41).
Now, do you need me to discuss why someone who is DEFICIENT needs to take more than a "daily recommended dose" until the deficiency is corrected, or do you have enough real world experience to figure that one out for yourself?
Seriously, the MAYO CLINIC wasn't good enough for you? Wow. But kind of cool. I've been researching this for a while, and I am always willing to share.
ON EDIT: references weren't showing due to brackets - switched them to parenthesis.
as a credible source because *I* said something you didn't want to believe, and think my BACKING UP MY EXTREMELY CREDIBLE POINT OF VIEW WITH LINKS FROM THE NIH is CONDESCENDING?
Are you serious?
Well, let me answer your question - I consider people who disagree with me because they don't know what they are talking about to either be in need of education, or willfully remaining ignorant. You *may* be starting to get a glimpse of some of the investigation I have been doing to understand this for the last five years, and why I consider myself better informed on these topics than many members of the medical profession, including those nitwits I referenced the other day. This is an Internet discussion board, and some reasonable skeptiscm is understandable, so asking for references to "outlandish claims" (like nutrition matters ) is reasonable.
And then we have the knee jerk insulting folk who call me a "snake oil salesman" with "no understanding of science" who seem to live to jeer at my so-called expertise, which category, to be fair, I have mentally put you in based on some of your postings about this topic.
If that isn't true, I apologize for misunderstanding your intent - mockery - which amused me because it was such an obvious fail.
But please, keeping mind that I am NOT a doctor, and therefore remember you have already decided everything I have to say is "woo."
Now ask yourself this - if I am right (and I am), how many babies have died in the last five years because "non-woo" folk couldn't be bothered to investigate this?
I have nightmares. (shudder)
Laugh or cry - take your pick.
Abracadabra, baby.
If I didn't believe in myself and the power of my mind to reason, I would have shut up about this a while ago, and Jordan's son would be living his life in a wheelchair, the Neighbor Girl wouldn't be able to use her hands, the 29 week micro preemie with level three and four brain bleeds wouldn't have spent her first Christmas being called "Butterball", and a hundred other children wouldn't have similar stories.
Arrogant is one way to describe me, if you want to minimize what I have to say. I prefer BRAVE.
You are a feisty one! I bet you vote, too!
Thank you for the amazing compliment!
we needed to feel the pain (and were dying not because of the bacteria they were bringing from the autopsy room) Because Of SIN.
Yup, as Daughters of Eve, God personally decreed we needed to pay for our sins by screaming / dying in childbirth. Sort of like "the gays" were dying from AIDS because of their sinful ways.
Evidence based my ass. This paragraph from my original post --
So we have a profession that does a lot of good, but is not really in touch with "how to grow a healthy pig" (for example) with a long history of dismissing concerns that haven't been personally experienced by the practitioners themselves, all puffed up and proud because they are "scientists", and anyone who doesn't follow the same path to reach the same conclusions is easily dismissed as a practitioner of "woo"; to be fair, this is an age old battle - midwife versus medieval physician, still replayed to this day.
God Bless Queen Victoria.
Subtle, eh? Although I could have used the cattle industry, the equine industry, the poultry industry, goat herds, puppies, kittens and white mice -- in fact, if there is "chow" you can google the species with "trace minerals" and learn about how to identify if your livestock is at risk.
Coincidence, dammit! We have identified five COMMON CAUSES of DOCUMENTED DEFICIENCY in my little population, with 83% seeing improvement when corrected.
Too bad the "scientists" think everyone just Got Lucky.
And to be fair, men and women have different ways of communicating.
I am getting downright AGGRESSIVE about this stuff lately. Oddly enough, maybe some people are listening.
Or maybe it is just noise on a message board.
I really have to finish this dratted write-up.
Not that anyone who "matters" will probably read it....
BUT I HAVE TO TRY, RIGHT? BECAUSE LIVES DEPEND ON IT!
To the Batmobile!
Oh, wait!
One of the first things she said to me was "as a mother, you have to trust your gut." Once I couldn't get in to see her, so I saw a male associate of about her age. I was worried about my toddler, who had a fever and wouldn't look up at me, and just didn't seem like himself. Also, I could SEE that the lymph nodes on his neck were enlarged.
The doc told me it was just a virus that was going around. I questioned this, but he was sure, so we left. Half way home, I changed my mind and went to an E.R. They took a blood test and found he had a serious bacterial infection. His white cells were through the roof. Fortunately, he didn't have to be hospitalized. But it was scary.
So later I told my doctor and she said she was going to have to give the other doctor a talking-to. She said he often didn't listen well enough to the mothers.
I will!
Thank you.
And with all your posts.
As a mother and a woman, I have TOTALLY BTDT. My brother passed out at work and got a full work up, ct scan, blood tests, heart tests, stress tests etc etc. I passed out and I got a 'sometimes it happens, try not to get up too fast'. 
I've also been "poopoo'ed" about some medical issues that have happened with my children.
Also, I went to the doctor 2 summers ago with fatigue issues...I was told it was 'just stress' but I insisted on some blood tests. Turns out I had extremely low levels of vitamin D, so I was told to take a certain amount a day for 3 months then cut it in half and stay on it. Well, the vitamin affected me severely and I had to lower my dosage. Just taking it caused anxiety, panic attacks, insomnia and severe leg and foot cramps. Taking a potassium and calcium/magnesium supplement helped with the cramps, but I still have to be careful to take it in the morning or I can't sleep. And yes, it has helped quite a bit with my fatigue issues. Unfortunately it didn't help when I caught a lung infection a few months ago that is still irritating my asthmatic lungs. But don't tell me vitamins don't have an effect - vitamin D has a huge effect on me. And if I had been taking a multivitamin regularly, I probably wouldn't have has such a deficiency. That's what gets me about the recommendations.
And really helps with insomnia. As for your fatigue, did you read my "table salt" story? Turned out I had an iodine deficiency.
You can test for this yourself pretty easily. Get some tincture of iodine (that stuff your mom put on your cuts that was bright orange and stung like crazy) and draw a dark as you can filled in circle on your inner forearm about an inch or so in diameter. If you can find a friend or family member to do it at the same time for comparison, bonus points. If it is still there in 24 hours, awesome! If it goes away sooner (check it regularly) it is because you are deficient and your largest organ (your skin) is sucking it up. (Mine went away in less than half an hour the first time I did this back when I had this problem!) Pick up some "iodoral" tablets to correct if needed, and make sure your table salt is the iodine supplemented one.
I started feeling like a human being again within 48 hours. Neat, huh?
Thank you for joining the thread!
Even though we aren't doing formal tracking anymore, I consider many of the people in this project friends at this point.
I just received a Facebook message from the mom of #74 (clonus disappeared). They accidentally ended up on a two week break, and just had a bunch more "dramatic changes" in cognitive and motor - right side affected, she put her hand down and caught herself when she tripped. (This is "inconceivable" - lol!) the mom wanted to know if there were any other kids who have been on it as long still seeing the periodic "big gains" - welcome to being one of the first fifty, because we lost some/don't have data. She's thrilled, but why does "taking a break" get followed by "huge gains" even after nearly a year? Are we still "building brains" or did getting startled enable her to use existing pathways --
We've got no one to talk to about these issues. Her doctor is supposed to call me back *real soon* two weeks ago.
At the same time, COGNITIVE IMPROVEMENT and MOBILITY - you go, girl!
Shaking my head at the ways of an amazing universe....
For 20 years male doctors told her it was just severe allergies, but it was not. I find it funny that people have faith in doctors like they do God or some cult. I can understand being amazed that someone can save a life, it amazes me too. Still, people make mistakes and people have their own biases. Even doctors.
Also, some people seem to only be able to grasp a 1st grade understanding of how vitamins work and why we need them along with minerals. This crap about people taking 1000's of vitamins a day to stop disease and reverse aging doesn't fool people that take vitamins and minerals for a deficiency in their diet. I guess if they want to lump us all together, then so be it.
Good rant!
It is so predictable by some here...how we are NOT talking about disease and reverse aging! Okay vitamins don't fight disease, GREAT! But they DO help balance essentials in a body when needed!
I find it poor form for some to be saying (during Christmas) these things and at a time when the GOP is trying to cut all aid to the poor.
Yeah, let's tell the malnourished NOT to take a vitamin...brilliant! 
(as I put in another post earlier this week)
"Woo" is generally anything that has not gone through rigorous scientific testing and stringent peer reviewed studies. http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024188166
As I said, charitable definition - here on DU it is regularly used as an insulting or disparaging way to condescend, minimize, sneer, or otherwise belittle others, frequently under the guise of assuming anyone who does not hold a golden ticket to the hallowed halls of "science done correctly" is ignorant, uneducated, gullible, prone to fantasy or delusion, mentally inferior, and/or a danger to society.
"Woo" has been identified by the sacred cabal of "we're right and you're wrong so neener neener" as including such topics as nutrition (unless it is from a reputable journal, of course), vitamin and mineral supplementation, aromatherapy, acupuncture, herbal medicine, folk medicine, apple cider vinegar proponents, and anyone who insists they achieved a positive outcome without benefit of the miracle of modern medicine or pharmacology. To put forth such a view (or even talk about any of these topics without snorting at the sheep who waste their money while destroying civilization by disrespecting Real Science) is to be a proponent of "Woo" meaning you will never need to be listened to by these Good People Ever Again because if you try to convince them you know what you are talking about, you are a snake-oil salesman, if you use your own experience, it is because you don't understand why it is "anecdotal" and if you discuss someone other than yourself, it is because you don't understand how Real Science Works.
It has been going on for a while now, but the current kerfluffle started over nutrition and vitamin/mineral supplementation (because only idiots who like to waste money take multivitamins, per the anti-woo brigade - it's SCIENCE, dammit!).
Does that help?
who are REALLY outspoken about how much they disdain the experiences reported by the rest of the planet. If you do a search on SidDithers, his main threads usually attract like minded folk. They like to kick threads in insulting ways without adding much to the conversation (you may have noticed two of them in this thread), so if one can keep a sense of humor (the "Mayo Clinic" not being a credible source, for example) they are generally harmless.
People who were tolerant of them or who ignored them generically really seem to be turned off by this incident because it is is a direct slap in the face of many people's own experiences.
Maybe. We'll see. Oh, and I tried that laundry soap thing, but my husband is extremely sensitive to (I think) the Borax, so back to Tide Zero Additives for us. Still neat, eh?
