Atheists, Work With Us for Peace, Pope Says on Christmas

[jsr]

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/26/world/europe/popes-christmas-message-for-atheists.html

Atheists, Work With Us for Peace, Pope Says on Christmas
By JIM YARDLEY

ROME — Pope Francis used the first Christmas address of his papacy on Wednesday to make a broad call for global peace and an end to violence in Syria and parts of Africa, urging atheists and followers of other religions to join together in this common cause.

Francis has regularly attracted huge crowds in Vatican City, and almost overnight he has emerged as a major figure on the global stage, surprising many Catholics with his nonjudgmental tone on issues like homosexuality and divorce, and his focus on the plight of the world’s poor. He has also been unpredictable, telephoning ordinary people who have written him letters, embracing a badly disfigured man at St. Peter’s, and making unannounced visits in Rome.

He proved unpredictable again on Wednesday, when he went off script to include atheists in his call for peace, rare for a Catholic leader.

“I invite even nonbelievers to desire peace,” he said. “Let us all unite, either with prayer or with desire, but everyone, for peace.”

[SidDithers]

1. Pretty sure it's not atheists that are the source of most world conflict...

How 'bout looking to your own sectarian brothers and sisters, Pope Photo-Op.

Sid

[Wounded Bear]

2. Well, I'll give him one thing...

Most religious leaders tend to try and blame atheism for the various ills of the world.

This is a big step for a Pontiff, IMHO. I agree, that as the CEO of the prototypical multi-national corporation, he has a lot of ground to cover, but at least he's saying some of the right things.

I'll give him one on this and continue to wait and see if the actions start to match the rhetoric.

[pnwmom]

3. They are still a small minority. I'm sure they cause conflict

in proportion to their numbers.

Ayn Rand was an atheist and so are many of her libertarian acolytes.

[passiveporcupine]

119. small but growing

Many progressive liberals are atheist or agnostic. Non-religious people make up almost 12% of the world population. That is a lot of people. Many professed Christians (and other religions) are non-practicing, which is possibly/probably the first step to becoming an agnostic. Spiritual awareness does not necessarily mean believing in God. Spiritually aware people (like Buddhists) are generally not in the Ayn Rand or Hitler camp.

[roguevalley]

6. Given that China and Russia were atheist forever, no one gets off. Everyone

has blood on their hands and everyone has a duty. Trying to assign blame in proportion to all groups is part of the problem, not the solution. No human walks away from blame. Saying one group deserves more blame than other is counter to the concept of unity. I don't live in the past. I can't change it. He's right to ask this of all of us. All of us are to blame. we have the world we want so far. We have to change and want something else for peace to happen. IMO

[MattBaggins]

36. Russia and China were atheist forever?

What?

[SpartanDem]

40. State atheism

was common part of communist states. Part of the Marxism Leninist ideology is that order to bring about a communist society religion needed to be eliminated. Ever wonder where the phrase "godless commies" comes from? Well this is it.




The founder and primary theorist of Marxism, the Nineteenth-century German sociologist Karl Marx, had an ambivalent attitude to religion, viewing it primarily as "the opium of the people" that had been used by the ruling classes to give the working classes false hope for millennia, whilst at the same time recognizing it as a form of protest by the working classes against their poor economic conditions.[28] In the Marxist–Leninist interpretation of Marxist theory, developed primarily by Russian revolutionary Vladimir Lenin, religion is seen as negative to human development, and communist states that follow a Marxist–Leninist variant are atheistic and explicitly antireligious.[29]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_atheism


The policy that began with Lenin and continued for the course of Soviet history was that religion was to be tolerated by the state, but the Party was to do whatever it deemed necessary in order to gradually remove it from society.[40][41] Thus, the Soviet state and the Communist Party - which were two separate institutions - were supposed to have two different attitudes towards religion, with the first being neutral and the second being hostile to it. However, since the USSR was a one-party state, the distinction between Party and state became very blurred over time, with the result that religion was sometimes repressed and sometimes tolerated, to varying degrees.[42] When writing about the Party's anti-religious stance, Lenin did not see the replacement of religion with atheism as an end to itself, but wrote that it needed to be accompanied by a materialist world-view.

Marxism as interpreted by Lenin and his successors required changes in social consciousness and the redirection of people’s beliefs. Soviet Marxism was considered incompatible with belief in the Supernatural. Communism required a conscious rejection of religion or else it could not be established.[43] This was not a secondary priority of the system, nor was it a hostility developed towards religion as a competing or rival system of thought, but it was a core and fundamental teaching of the philosophical doctrine of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union.[44] Marxist philosophy traditionally involved a thorough scientific critique of religion and an attempt to ‘demystify’ religious belief.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxist%E2%80%93Leninist_atheism

[MattBaggins]

46. and that was forever?

[0rganism]

112. "forever" clause aside, Marx's "opium of the people" quote deserves a second look

Especially in late 20thC America, with our "War On Drugs" mentality, it's easy for religious people to think Marx was demonizing religion. It's important to remember that at the time Marx wrote that, opium was an essential medicine and pain killer, not just the degrading junky maker it's commonly portrayed as today. i think Marx's quote is more appropriately viewed as an observation that the proletariat is generally afflicted with suffering, real pain that would lead swiftly to widespread uprisings against the capitalist ruling class were there not something in place to assuage this suffering. Marx's quote can be seen as an acknowledgement of the power of religion and its use-value to the bourgeoisie, not some blind excoriation of religion and demand for atheism.

That's my take anyway.

[demosincebirth]

56. +100

[Nevernose]

70. Did they war in the name of atheism?

And how many of the armed conflicts in the world today (or ever) are fought in the name of atheism versus the number of wars fought in the name of religion?

My point being that the two things, at least when it comes to warfare, really aren't comparable. It's apples and oranges, especially in 2013.

That having been said, I applaud the Pope for his relative inclusiveness and I agree wholeheartedly that mankind needs to put aside our differences and work towards peace. Most of us hold way too much hatred and greed in our hearts.

[Vashta Nerada]

8. + a million

[KittyWampus]

10. do you really think the profiteers from the military industrial complex are actually "religious"?

[orpupilofnature57]

51. Yes , they just don't really believe in anything but $$$$$$

[SidDithers]

91. Yes...nt

Sid

[el_bryanto]

15. So when you went and read the Popes message he was strictly lecturing atheists?

That's not how i read it - rather i think he was calling on everybody to work together for peace.

Bryant

[Matariki]

19. Name any modern "catholic wars".

I'd say most all modern wars are started by corporate capitalists who, at the very most, pay cynical lip service to their idea of religion. But in truth are hard core materialists.

[JI7]

26. how does that change whether they are religious, like the duck dynasty piece of shits , they

certainly are materialists but they also are religious. and it's religious people who are defending them.

[Matariki]

29. If you follow the thread you'd be able to answer your own question

I was responding to Sid whathisface's post telling catholics to look to their own regarding wars. And I wouldn't disagree if we look a few centuries back, but now, not so much

[JI7]

31. i don't view being a corporate capitalist separate from being religious

as far as religous people go there are good and bad ones. same with non religious people.

i guess it's comforting for some to say that "they are not a real christian" or "they are not a real muslim" and try to put them into a non religious category .

[Matariki]

38. The purpose of modern wars is more or less profit - not to kill non-believers

Although that was probably true in the past as well.

How they dress up the actual truth of what they're doing is probably the only thing that's changed.

[CrawlingChaos]

53. +1000

[muriel_volestrangler]

131. You might put Franco in Spain in the category of a 'Catholic war'

Throughout his four-decade-long regime, Franco drew on similar sentiments as he allied his government with the Roman Catholic Church to divinely legitimize his rule and stabilize Spain.

The Catholic Church had labeled the Spanish Civil War a “crusade,” thus providing Franco with religious legitimization for his actions in the war as well as after the war. This label also rationalized the Church’s renewed religious authority in Spain. The Church saw Franco’s rule as a chance to “(reassert) Catholic hegemony via the homogenization of Spanish culture.” Just as Franco was purging the country of political, cultural, and religious “heresy,” the Catholic Church saw this as an opportunity to reassert their own power, lost in the previous century by the divisive Carlist Wars.

During the “restoration monarchy” of 1874 to 1923, the Catholic Church had equated Spanish greatness with “intransigent Catholicism.” By the time Franco had come to power, the people of Spain had long been accustomed to Catholicism, and Franco capitalized on this familiarity to unite the country. Further, Franco extended his reliance on the Catholic Church to control the public, and surrounded himself with this uniting force: he employed in his cabinet several members of Opus Dei, a conservative Catholic organization. Those members of Opus Dei helped Franco unify Spain through Nationalism, and displayed little tolerance for divisive forces. Franco felt that “democracy, socialism, anarchism, (and particularly,) communism” had no place in his system, and he relied on “families and local communities, the Roman Catholic Church, and the workplace,” to foster a united citizenry. This system worked well for Franco, as he could avoid policing thought, as a conventional totalitarian state would attempt, and instead relied on the power of these traditional institutions to “shape succeeding generations.” Sheelagh M. Ellwood, in her Spanish Fascism in the Franco Era, writes that there was no “honourable space either for Spaniards who disbelieved Catholic dogma or were not interested in it, or for Catholics who disliked enforced absorption into a military, centralist, Spanish state.”

In essence, Catholicism played a social, political, and economic role during Franco’s regime because it “constituted the common cultural and political denominator inside the Nationalist camp.” Further, while Franco’s support for the Catholic Church stabilized Spain, the Church also received the benefits of this fully “national Catholic culture, founded on the exclusive right to proselytize (most crucially thorough the schools) and on substantial state subsidy.”

http://pages.vassar.edu/envisioningspainsborder/?p=382

[Drahthaardogs]

75. What part of 'Let us all unite" do you find exclusive of Catholics?

.

[orpupilofnature57]

79. Fault, it sounds like .

[Comrade Grumpy]

126. Ugly post. n/t

[SidDithers]

128. I find religion ugly...nt

Sid

[1awake]

133. Maybe so

but then I've seen many professed atheists who I would consider extremely religious with the only thing differing would be the cause.

[LuckyLib]

4. Many of us have been for years. Years that the church has been dealing with hiding

wayward priests and compensating victims.

[Mr.Bill]

5. As an Atheist, I don't need

anyone to "invite" me to desire peace. I've desired it all my life.

[roguevalley]

7. he is making a gesture toward everyone that has been missing from his

organization forever. I welcome it.

[Mr.Bill]

13. His "gesture" although probably well-meaning is condescending.

Frankly, from a man who usually choose his words carefully, it surprises me.

[HERVEPA]

103. Yup "even" atheists

[Comrade Grumpy]

127. The perpetually offended will be offended.

[SammyWinstonJack]

22. Same here.

[Vashta Nerada]

9. Maybe the church should lead by example before asking for my help.

I refuse to work with them while they continue to hide priests who fondle little children, while they condemn gays, while they forbid access to birth control for women, and forbidding women to dictate what they want to do with their own bodies.

Until any of that is done, I won't work with the church. Fuck them.

[Tikki]

11. Dear pope, most atheists I know have always worked for World Peace…it is kind of our thing.

World Peace, kind to the environmental, equality, economic justice…
all those things fundamentalist aren't.


Tikki p.s. we are still on board…glad you are, too.

[CrawlingChaos]

18. There is nothing inherently anti-war about atheism

Just look at egregious warmongers - and celebrity atheists - Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens. The former of whom has called for a preemptive nuclear strike on the Muslim world.

This notion that the world fills with goodness once you remove religion is simple-minded.

[Matariki]

21. +1

[Tikki]

23. There is nothing inherently pro-war about atheists either...

I have never met an atheist who worships Harris or Hitchens. We pretty much don't worship.


Tikki

[MNBrewer]

39. Where has Sam Harris called for a preemptive nuclear strike on the Muslim world?

[CrawlingChaos]

41. It's in his book "The End of Faith"

From an article by Chris Hedges, which quotes the book directly:

Harris, echoing the blood lust of Hitchens, calls, in his book The End of Faith , for a nuclear first strike against the Islamic world. He defends torture as a logical form of interrogation. He, like all utopians, has reduced millions of human beings and cultures he knows nothing about to primitive impediments to his vision of a better world.

"What will we do if an Islamist regime, which grows dewy-eyed at the mere mention of paradise, ever acquires long-range nuclear weaponry?" Harris asks. "If history is any guide, we will not be sure about where the offending warheads are or what their state of readiness is, and so we will be unable to rely on targeted, conventional weapons to destroy them. In such a situation, the only thing likely to ensure our survival may be a nuclear first strike of our own.

Source is here: http://www.alternet.org/story/80449/the_dangerous_atheism_of_christopher_hitchens_and_sam_harris

[MNBrewer]

43. So you lied when you said he called for a pre-emptive nuclear strike, then.

[CrawlingChaos]

44. Care to expound on that utterly nonsensical remark?

I sense a desperate parsing of words coming on. Or no response at all.

Here's a bit more on Sam Harris, just for you:

http://mondoweiss.net/2012/09/sam-harris-in-full-court-intellectual-mystic-and-supporter-of-the-iraq-war.html

[MNBrewer]

45. Even more on Sam Harris, this time in his OWN words

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/response-to-chris-hedges

[CrawlingChaos]

48. Yes, I've read his backpedalling drivel. Got anything substantive?

Btw, those were his OWN words that I posted. The excerpt from Hedges article contained a direct quote from Harris' book.

You're a diehard Harris fan, I take it? I can't imagine anyone else would care to defend such a monster.

[MNBrewer]

49. I've always admired Hedges, but to find that he's slandering Harris is disturbing

I guess Hedges has some blind spots he inherited from his faith-based father, along with the good things.

[cpwm17]

65. Chris Hedges was clearly exactly right

Sam Harris supports aggressive war based on his own bigotry. Not surprisingly he supported the Iraq war. He is in no position to lecture anyone about morals.

His call for a nuclear first strike was in his own book, at least in the form of a fantasy.

[MNBrewer]

93. Calling for something vs. positing it as a likely US response are not the same thing

And I also disagreed with Hitchens regarding the Iraq war.

There's no need to lie about "calling for a nuclear strike", however.

[cpwm17]

95. Sam Harris wrote it as a fantasy

Morally, there's no real difference.

In some ways Sam Harris is similar to Bill Bennett: http://mediamatters.org/video/2005/09/28/media-matters-exposes-bennett-you-could-abort-e/133904

They are both phony moralizers that write books on the subject. They also have both fantasized about genocide. When Bill Bennett said his disgusting comment, I saw no liberals defending him.

[MNBrewer]

100. Baloney! There is a HUGE difference, even IF your characterization were true

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/2010/12/chris-hedges-doesnt-like-us/

http://warisacrime.org/node/52104

[cpwm17]

114. Sam Harris (and Hitchens, outspokenly) support for the neocon's aggressive war agenda

and his lack of interest in US's past bad behavior towards the Muslim world, indicates that I am justified in interpreting Sam Harris' writings as written:

What will we do if an Islamist regime, which grows dewy-eyed at the mere mention of paradise, ever acquires long-range nuclear weaponry? If history is any guide, we will not be sure about where the offending warheads are or what their state of readiness is, and so we will be unable to rely on targeted, conventional weapons to destroy them. In such a situation, the only thing likely to ensure our survival may be a nuclear first strike of our own. Needless to say, this would be an unthinkable crime—as it would kill tens of millions of innocent civilians in a single day—but it may be the only course of action available to us, given what Islamists believe.

I can read.

I'm an atheist, and one privilege of being an atheist is that I have no pope. Well known and outspoken atheists that support positions that I don't like should be condemned. It's not an attack against me.

Atheism isn't what makes people better, though atheism eliminates religion, and religions often interfere in the process.

I avoid Sam Harris. The little I've heard from him is enough to let me know I have no use for him. Hitchens seems to think that religion is the number one evil in the world, and the main cause of war. Religious war mongering is one of Hitchens main points Hitchens uses to condemn religion – obviously lacking self awareness.

Selfishness, greed, and bigotry (all related) are the main causes of evil in this world. Hitchens and Harris are extremely bigoted and that is why they support aggressive war.

[MNBrewer]

122. Reading and comprehension are distinct things

[MNBrewer]

50. Actually I don't follow Harris much.

But have always been impressed with him when I've heard him speak (the same goes for Hedges, btw).

I'm more of a Richard Dawkins fan, myself, and also very much agree with Hitchens when it comes to the dangers of "faith".

[JI7]

47. most people don't know who those 2 are and they don't have much influence

[Vashta Nerada]

60. Bullshit.

Atheism is peaceful. The individual is not.

[rug]

63. "Bullshit. Atheism is peaceful."

[Vashta Nerada]

66. Oh right.

How many people died in the name of Jesus?

[rug]

68. I must check to see how often Gandhi buttressed his callls for pacifism with "Bullshit!"

"Bullshit. Be the change that you wish to see in the world.”

"Bullshit. An eye for an eye will only make the whole world blind.”

"Bullshit. Each night, when I go to sleep, I die. And the next morning, when I wake up, I am reborn.”

[Vashta Nerada]

72. Grow up.

[rug]

89. Wise up.

[Major Nikon]

81. Atheism is inherently anti-war

With no promise of paradise in the afterlife(which convieniently can't be verified), there is much more incentive to make the most of the only existince one will ever have.

Those you mention aren't the ones who have to do the dying or motivate others to do the dying.

[progressoid]

96. +1

[hack89]

106. No it is not

I met many fellow atheists in my 20 years in the Navy.

[Major Nikon]

109. I spent 10 years in the military with atheist on my dog tags

[LittleBlue]

120. Sam Harris is a fraud and the defenders of his pseudo intellectualism

are utterly pathetic. He even used the ticking time bomb scenario to justify torture. And he did it in a coward's way, like "I'm not saying we should torture, but if we knew of a bomb we should use it".

Utter fraud of a man.

[hack89]

105. I know many conservative atheists from my time in the Navy

People are atheists for many different reasons.

[Tikki]

113. Me too...

But, I, also, know many who are pacifists. I, also, know gays who are staunch republicans…they, also, have their reasons.

I ask the pope to join atheists and all to fight the link between over~population and poverty.

Since he is in an asking mood..If he asked this atheist, I would share what I know about the link between over~population and poverty.


Tikki

[Vinca]

12. As an atheist, he should be asking Christians to desire peace.

It's the Bible thumpers on the right who are always eager to drop bombs. He might also ask them to feed the poor, house the homeless, heal the sick and all the other tidbits lost in the gospel according to Republicans.

[former9thward]

14. Shouldn't atheists being doing those things also?

In my community I have never seen an atheist or atheist organization help anyone. As far as worldwide in the 20th century proudly atheist communists killed far more than anyone else. Atheist Nazis were a close second.

[el_bryanto]

16. That's not historically accurate and pretty offensive

First of all how hard have you been looking to see if atheists are helping people? Secondly the Nazis weren't atheist and to ascribe that to them is kind of bigoted; they were a mishmash of all sorts of things including Christianity.

Bryant

[former9thward]

28. How hard?

Whenever there are problems various organizations step depending on what it is, some religious, but none atheist.

The Nazis were atheist and to suggest otherwise is offensive to their victims.

The Nazi Fuehrer Adolf Hitler stated repeatedly Nazism was a secular ideology founded on science. There was some diversity of views among the Nazi leadership as to the future of religion in Germany. Anti-Church radicals included Hitler's militant atheist Deputy Martin Bormann and Minister for Propaganda Joseph Goebbels, the neo-pagan official Nazi Philosopher Alfred Rosenberg and security chief Heinrich Himmler. Some Nazis, such as Hans Kerrl, who served as Hitler's Minister for Church Affairs, believed Christianity could be Nazified into "Positive Christianity", by renouncing its Jewish origins, and Apostle's Creed, and holding Hitler as a new "Messiah". Hitler himself believed that in the long run, National Socialism and religion would not be able to co-exist, but was prepared temporarily to restrain some of his more radical instincts out of political considerations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Nazi_Germany

[el_bryanto]

30. none atheist?

Well first of all, atheists aren't organized the way Religions are - so determining on whether not an Atheists donates or supports a cause isn't as easy as you suggest it is.

Secondly, Wikipedia isn't necessarily the end-all and be-all of human knowledge, and in this case I think they are wrong; more over you are wrong in that you are suggesting that Atheism caused Nazisms murderous tendencies.

Bryant

[JI7]

32. atheists don't have churches and other organized groups the way others do

i have given a lot to religious groups, far more than many religious people i know. but i know i will never get credit for it and it will be viewed as the religious group giving.

[Tikki]

33. He was still working that religion thing…he saw himself as the ultimate authority...

Who do religious people think is the ultimate authority?


Tikki

[earthside]

34. Nazis were religious.

My gosh ... even a cursory reading of mid-20th century history will clue you in to the religiousness of Nazis.

Hitler was raised a Catholic and remained a Catholic ... he made contradictory statements about his and his ideology's acceptance of a deity. There were Catholic and Lutheran leaders who made accommodations with the Nazi regime. Of course, as we all know, all the German soldiers wore military paraphernalia printed or engraved with 'Gott mit uns'.

Other Nazis were very taken with Nordic mythology that is chockfull of gods.

Though there are some atheists who seem intent upon forming a kind of alternative 'church', the vast majority (in my estimation) of atheists are independent and individualistic activists --- they are not out and about telling anyone they are nonbelievers as soon as they start doing volunteer work (unlike most religious people and/or groups).

Let's face it, most mass murders and genocides in world history have come at the hands of the high religiously motivated ... the Roman Catholic church for incredible numbers of slaughters in the west. Pope Francis really does need to worry more about conservative 'Christians' and their proclivity to urge war, before he concerns himself with atheists these days.

[former9thward]

35. You are stretching back into the Middle Ages?

I would rather look at the last 100 years. A much better predictor.

[Tikki]

37. Some say the catholic church in the last 100 years targeted the even more venerable..

Tikki

[earthside]

69. Seriously?

The role of the Roman church in the Spanish civil war?

Forced conversions especially in Italy and Ireland?

The fascism on the Roman church in the Balkans?

Pope Pius XII's cooperation with Hitler?

Those are examples of Roman Catholic crimes against humanity in the last 100 years ... and I didn't even do any Googling.

[former9thward]

82. Those compare with the tens of millions killed by Stalin and Hitler and Mao and Pol Pot?

Yeah, go ahead and start googling. You will need it.

[earthside]

98. Still, the totality ...

... of genocides at the hands of the Roman Church cannot be dismissed by comparisons with Stalin and Mao.

The mass murders committed in the name of religion vastly outpace the deaths done to spread or consolidate Russian and Chinese power.

Indeed, I am not aware of strictly atheist philosophy being touted to justify genocide -- it wasn't in the name of 'atheism' that Stalin and Mao condemn so many -- but it was in the name of 'god' that the Roman Church slaughter tens of thousands during the Albigensian Crusade, for instance.

The point still remains, Pope Francis ought to tend to the haters and warmongers in his own organization before casting aspersions on non-believers.

[demosincebirth]

62. I guess you don't recall Mao and Stalin, both atheist. What the last number 2-3 million

disappeared or slaughtered on their watch? Who knows? maybe we haven't, yet, found all the graves. North Korea, who knows how many there have gone missing or killed since the Armistice...couple of million don't you think.

[JI7]

74. north korea worships the fucking dear leader who is supposed to be some higher power type

atheists don't believe in that .

[demosincebirth]

124. They are still Atheist.

[JI7]

125. and they still aren't killing non atheists in the name of atheism , it's mostly their own who are

dying.

it's like saying the iraq, afghanistan deaths were because of christianity. or even the katrina deaths were because of christianity because Bush is Christian.

[nyquil_man]

118. Dictators set themselves up as gods or godlike figures.

That is the cult of personality at its very worst. Why were those millions disappeared or slaughtered? Because they turned against the dictator. Because the dictator deemed them inferior. Because they didn't clap hard enough.

Believing oneself to be a god, entitled to unthinking obedience, is not atheism. It's psychopathy.

[demosincebirth]

123. Sorry, not valid nt

[nyquil_man]

130. I'm glad to see someone's making the best of the discussion board.

Thank you for your input.

[Tikki]

20. Do we have a big gold A on our atheist uniform?

I do all the volunteer activities that anyone does…we are not organized like a religion.
I am simply a human that knows there is no god, no need to place one in my way.



Tikki

[JI7]

24. also there have been a few cases where help from atheists was rejected

and anytime i do provide help i don't tell anyone i am atheist. even if they say "god bless you" to me i don't tell them i am atheist.

usually i will only tell someone if i am asked about my beliefs or we get into some kind of discussion.

[Tikki]

27. Me, too...

I expect no reward here or there…just needs to be done.



Tikki

[Vinca]

76. Wow - I'm astonished at your comment.

Atheists don't feel the need to knock you over the head with the good we're going. I don't have to proclaim I'm an atheist when I donate to the food bank. I don't feel it necessary to say it's the "atheist" thing to do if I support the homeless shelter. And as for wars and killings, I'd say Christians have the market cornered on that. Even today there are Christian militias on the African continent that are on the verge of creating another genocide.

[former9thward]

83. Christian militias have killed tens of millions?

Where exactly? Since they have the "corner on that."

[Vinca]

97. Did you know Adolph Hitler considered himself a Christian?

He was raised a Catholic and he thought his mission to eradicate the Jews was part of his Christian calling.

[former9thward]

99. No he did not.

The Nazi Fuehrer Adolf Hitler stated repeatedly Nazism was a secular ideology founded on science. There was some diversity of views among the Nazi leadership as to the future of religion in Germany. Anti-Church radicals included Hitler's militant atheist Deputy Martin Bormann and Minister for Propaganda Joseph Goebbels, the neo-pagan official Nazi Philosopher Alfred Rosenberg and security chief Heinrich Himmler. Some Nazis, such as Hans Kerrl, who served as Hitler's Minister for Church Affairs, believed Christianity could be Nazified into "Positive Christianity", by renouncing its Jewish origins, and Apostle's Creed, and holding Hitler as a new "Messiah". Hitler himself believed that in the long run, National Socialism and religion would not be able to co-exist, but was prepared temporarily to restrain some of his more radical instincts out of political considerations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Nazi_Germany

[Vinca]

101. Read "Mein Kampf."

[former9thward]

102. I have.

You lose. I am still waiting for the answer about the Christian militias killing tens of millions. Where is that?

[Vinca]

104. I don't think so. And where, exactly, did I say tens of millions?

And why are we arguing about this in the first place when my point is right wingers who claim to be Christians are the ones who act least like Christians are supposed to.

[former9thward]

115. #36

It is certainly implied. And as for wars and killings, I'd say Christians have the market cornered on that. Even today there are Christian militias on the African continent that are on the verge of creating another genocide.\

I think it is a mistake to mix politics and religion. They really don't mix. There are plenty of good Christians and other religions of every political mix. And plenty of good atheists who do good things of various political mixes. i believe that is the point the Pope is making -- and no I'm not Catholic -- my ancestors were on the other side of that war.

[Vinca]

121. You've reminded me why I stopped posting here and I'm wondering why I returned.

There's something about this site that makes people who should share a common goal bicker and fight amongst themselves, wheels constantly spinning and never getting anywhere.

[Major Nikon]

107. Hitler certainly enlisted Christianity in his efforts

So did Stalin, btw.

Those that seek to compare atheism to any religion seem to forget that atheism is not a belief system. It is a rejection of belief systems. Atheism can't be used to motivate anyone to kill anyone else. You can't say that about religion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler's_Pope















Protestants also got in on the act:




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Christen

[former9thward]

116. Atheism was the state religion of the Soviet Union and Communist China.

Both dictatorships murdered priests and shut down churches. You can argue about motivation but those were the facts. I agree that the Nazi movement in Germany was more complicated because of that nation's history. But Hitler and the Nazis have never been described as "religious" or "Christian" by any historian.

[Major Nikon]

117. All of those regimes murdered a lot of people

...for political reasons, not religious.

Murdering anyone in the name of atheism would be pointless, this is not true of organized religion. Communism shunned organized religion because Marx described religion as opium of the masses designed to keep the poor in check. He was right.

[UtahJosh]

135. I would argue that Communism was the state religion of the USSR and China

There is certainly a fair argument to be made that their "cult of personality" religion played a part (exemplified even more perfectly in North Korea, and delving into history a bit very much within Imperial Japan as well).

Sure, they reject other religions outright. But in my view it's simply because you can't worship the state (or the leader) and some other church at the same time.

A far cry from atheism—more like just another form of worship.

[progressoid]

80. Congratulations!

[former9thward]

84. Another attempt to ignore history.

Facts can sometime be brutal. No wonder some like to see them hidden.

[JI7]

17. maybe he was thinking of the Ayn Rand worshippers although most of them are not atheist

[ananda]

42. Or how about, we'll work for peace, inclusively ...

... asking humbly that we be included with atheists, women,
gays, and all humanity concerned for our common welfare.

[CrawlingChaos]

52. Imagine if we really did learn to ALL work together for the common good

TPTB wouldn't stand a chance.

[Warpy]

54. Most of us already do

It's only those right wing atheists you have to watch your food stamps around.

I'm afraid they're unreachable, at least at present. A brick wall will have to fall on them first.

[liberal_at_heart]

55. geez I can't believe how many posts on here don't appreciate the inclusiveness.

We are all interconnected and interdependent but damn if we don't work like hell to divide ourselves. Between the gender wars and now the posts I've read on this thread I'm just done for a while. I had a beautiful Christmas and I sure as hell don't need to come here and listen to people find reasons to hate one another.

[demosincebirth]

58. The Pope is taking away their thunder.

[madrchsod]

78. no shit...it really is getting bad

[Bluenorthwest]

90. Here is what Francis has actually said about marriage equality. Inclusive?

“Let’s not be naive, we’re not talking about a simple political battle; it is a destructive pretension against the plan of God. We are not talking about a mere bill, but rather a machination of the Father of Lies that seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God.”

All some of us want is equal rights. Others refuse to share equally. Some of those others spew hate speech about us being evil, as Francis does.
Untill our rights are equal, you folks need to be honest about what these anti gay clerics say and do. Claiming the man who said the above hateful quote is inclusive is a disgusting bit of mendacity.
Do unto others as you'd have others do unto you. Try it.

[MNBrewer]

110. +1

[Demo_Chris]

57. We're way ahead of him. Hey Pope, stop sheltering child rapists.

[demosincebirth]

59. Everyone has moved past that except, maybe, you.

[Demo_Chris]

61. I'm funny that way. nt

[demosincebirth]

64. I wasn't thinking "funny."

[Demo_Chris]

73. No, you were thinking and all but saying, "Shut up about raped kids already."

But if I am the last person on earth who still cares, that's fine. I won't forget the tens of thousands of child rapists this church unleashed in America alone -- let alone across the rest of the globe. I won't forget the mental and physical torture, the electroshock and even castration to force the hundreds of thousand of child victims to keep silent.

And no, I wont forget that THIS Pope, your buddy, is still covering it up and still providing a refuge for these monsters to continue their black harvest. Nor will I stop mentioning that this Pope would rather have child rapists as priests than women. Think about that; he would rather have a child rapist than a woman. Some are fine with that, but not me.

I don't want to hear bullshit about how saintly this monster is. He might be charismatic, but he's a ghoul. That's ALL he is.

[Vashta Nerada]

67. Yeah.

Let's look past that inconvenient little reality about child molestation and focus on the Pope's view on capitalism.

[Tien1985]

77. Moved past child rape?

No, actually, many thousands of people still have not "moved past" sheltering child molesters.

Is that what you were actually trying to say, because its hard to believe you would mean that?

[Bluenorthwest]

87. Jesus said

that which is done to the least among us, children included, is done to Jesus himself. He very clearly says in that book 'The Bible' that he will not 'move past' such evil actions, that he will remember and say 'I know you not' to those who did wrong to others.
So you, the Pope and the guilty have 'moved past this' but don't count on the rest of us to that. And he 'who died for you' promised to remember all of it, untill the last day.

[theHandpuppet]

111. Really? Is that a subject we should just "move on" from?

Or is it just a subject some people would rather others not talk about?

Vatican rebuffs United Nations sex abuse inquiries
BBC News
December 3, 2013

The Vatican has refused to provide information requested by the United Nations on the alleged sexual abuse of children by priests, nuns or monks....

...The UN Committee on the Rights of the Child put a wide-ranging questionnaire to the Holy See - the city state's diplomatic entity - last July, asking for detailed information about the particulars of all sexual abuse cases notified to the Vatican since 1995.

The questions included whether priests, nuns and monks guilty of sexual crime were allowed to remain in contact with children, what legal action had been taken against them, whether the Church required clergy to report abuse to secular authorities and whether complainants were silenced.

In its response, the Holy See insisted that it was "separate and distinct" from the Roman Catholic Church, and that it was not its practice to disclose information about the religious discipline of clergy unless specifically requested to by the authorities in the country where they were serving....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25204805

[Zorra]

71. There's a lot of RW war mongering self-identified Christians just like George W. Bush out there.

I suspect that, in the US, the % of self identified Christians who support war is significantly higher than the percentage of self identified atheists who support war.

I'm neither an atheist, nor a self-identified subscriber to any dogma. That's just how it appears in my world view.

[Bluenorthwest]

85. Here is what Francis has actually said about marriage equality, someone explain

what is the 'non judgemental' part:

“Let’s not be naive, we’re not talking about a simple political battle; it is a destructive pretension against the plan of God. We are not talking about a mere bill, but rather a machination of the Father of Lies that seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God.”
Full story here: http://www.queerty.com/pope-francis-i-same-sex-marriage-is-a-machination-of-the-father-of-lies-20130313/#ixzz2oaVhcEHA

This is just one of many horrific bits of hate this man has foisted against good people. Claiming he is nonjudgmental is simply a lie. I have to wonder how the author of this piece would react if I said those things about HIS family? If I, very nonjudgmentally, called his family a product of hell, would he be ok with that?

[edhopper]

86. As an atheist I disagree with him on every fundemental

religious dogma he believes in. I find the very foundation of the Church to be built on fairy tales.
But the Pope is also the leader of a vast organization and wields a good amount of political and philosophical influence.

So on this I would say i appreciate his comments. The article says he went off script to include atheists in his statement. I take it for what his intentions were. I do not think that he was trying to imply that atheist are responsible for conflict, i understand him to be saying that in matters like Global peace, we can work together.
It is similar to when atheists ask religious folk to work on keeping the division of Church and State and religion out of our laws.

[mountain grammy]

88. to "invite even nonbelievers to desire peace" might sound a bit condescending

but I prefer to take it as a call for inclusiveness. I think he was trying to say, whether someone "prays" for peace with religious beliefs, or "desires" peace without such religious beliefs, we should unite for the cause to end the constant state of conflict in the world, which, as we all know, only hurts the poorest and most vulnerable..

[Bluenorthwest]

92. Here is what Francis has actually said about marriage equality how is it 'inclusive'?

“Let’s not be naive, we’re not talking about a simple political battle; it is a destructive pretension against the plan of God. We are not talking about a mere bill, but rather a machination of the Father of Lies that seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God.”

Explain to me how you manage to see that as inclusive, calling us all those awful things, accusing us of such great wrongs.

[mountain grammy]

94. Be nice if you could provide a link and/or a date..

I don't doubt for a minute that this is an actual quote. If we had a penny for everyone who has changed their positions marriage equality, we'd both be rich. I prefer to embrace the change, as have others. Here's a link for you, from 2013:
http://www.advocate.com/politics/religion/2013/10/10/pope-francis-writes-private-letter-gay-catholics

[theHandpuppet]

108. He hasn't changed.

ENCYCLICAL LETTER
LUMEN FIDEI
OF THE SUPREME PONTIFF
FRANCIS
TO THE BISHOPS PRIESTS AND DEACONS
CONSECRATED PERSONS
AND THE LAY FAITHFUL
ON FAITH
Faith and the family
52. In Abraham’s journey towards the future city, the Letter to the Hebrews mentions the blessing which was passed on from fathers to sons (cf. Heb 11:20-21). The first setting in which faith enlightens the human city is the family. I think first and foremost of the stable union of man and woman in marriage. This union is born of their love, as a sign and presence of God’s own love, and of the acknowledgment and acceptance of the goodness of sexual differentiation, whereby spouses can become one flesh (cf. Gen 2:24)

Pastoral Visit to Assisi
Meeting with the Young People of Umbria (October 4, 2013)
“What is marriage? It is a true and authentic vocation, as are the priesthood and the religious life. Two Christians who marry have recognized the call of the Lord in their own love story, the vocation to form one flesh and one life from two, male and female. And the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony envelops this love in the grace of God, it roots it in God himself. By this gift, and by the certainty of this call, you can continue on assured; you have nothing to fear; you can face everything together!”

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/27/world/europe/in-major-document-pope-francis-present-his-vision.html?hp&pagewanted=all&_r=0

After months in which many have parsed his comments for hints of change, the pope used the document to reiterate church teachings on abortion, homosexuality and the ordination of women. On abortion, he said, “It is not ‘progressive’ to try to resolve problems by eliminating a human life. On the other hand, it is also true that we have done little to adequately accompany women in very difficult situations,” who may seek abortions because of rape or extreme poverty.

Nowhere in the document did Francis speak explicitly of homosexuality or same-sex marriage. However, he said the church should not give in to “moral relativism,” and cited with approval a document written by the bishops of the United States on ministering to people with “homosexual inclination.” The pope said the American bishops are right that the church must insist on “objective moral norms which are valid for everyone” — even when the church is perceived by supporters of gay rights as promoting prejudice and interfering with individual freedom.

Echoing his predecessors, Francis said that ordaining women to the priesthood “is not a question open to discussion.” He acknowledged that “many women share pastoral responsibilities with priests,” and said, “We need to create still broader opportunities for a more incisive female presence in the church.” But he offered no specifics on doing so.

[Oakenshield]

129. I applaud the sentiment.

Even if it does strike me as rather condescending.

[anti partisan]

132. Me too. I'll work (no exceptions) with any religion calling for peace. (nt)

[muriel_volestrangler]

134. In context, I don't think it was condescending

though the reporting may make it sound that way.

Too many lives have been shattered in recent times by the conflict in Syria, fueling hatred and vengeance. Let us continue to ask the Lord to spare the beloved Syrian people further suffering, and to enable the parties in conflict to put an end to all violence and guarantee access to humanitarian aid. We have seen how powerful prayer is! And I am happy today too, that the followers of different religious confessions are joining us in our prayer for peace in Syria. Let us never lose the courage of prayer! The courage to say: Lord, grant your peace to Syria and to the whole world. And I also invite non-believers to desire peace with that yearning that makes the heart grow: all united, either by prayer or by desire. But all of us, for peace.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/francesco/messages/urbi/documents/papa-francesco_20131225_urbi-et-orbi-natale_en.html

It's pretty much his job description to say 'pray for ...'. And it's realistic to extend that exhortation to non-Roman Catholics in the case of Syria, where very few of the major players or inhabitants are RC. And he then extended that to non-believers, in a reasonable (it seems to me) description of the non-religious equivalent of prayer.