I refuse to apologize for being male

[Harmony Blue]

and there is no rape culture here on DU. If there is please provide a link.

[Cali_Democrat]

1. Who asked you to apologize for being male?

[LeftyMom]

3. The imaginary shrill feminists who live in his head.

It's a bit sad, really.

[arcane1]

12. Indeed, men and straw-men living together! Oh no!

[TheBlackAdder]

68. Is this a sign of repressed guilt from a prior behaviors? n/t

[Iggo]

175. Nobody.

[nomorenomore08]

200. "Link, please?"

[NoOneMan]

2. "If there is please provide a link"

+1

[RobertEarl]

4. Not much on DU

But in our country there sure is quite a cultural acceptance of rape.

And we men should make sure that acceptance changes to no acceptance.

[seabeyond]

5. good. do NOT apologize for being male. that would be so wrong.

[NoOneMan]

8. Yes, no one should apologize for how they were born

Their gender, race, or whatever

[seabeyond]

9. nope.

[NoOneMan]

181. Nice to agree on something!

We're here, we're...men, get used to it!

[Rex]

208. The threads were dying down and you know how some people cannot let go

of a good divisive topic! As predictable as the Sun or the tide.

[Liberal_in_LA]

6. omg. the DU gender wars rage on.

[Vashta Nerada]

7. Trash thread.

Can't we make a forum for these types of posts?

[NoOneMan]

10. "Can't we make a forum for these types of posts?"

+1

[Jester Messiah]

111. That would be for the best, I think. [nt]

[Starry Messenger]

11. Gosh, only one video to make hurt male feefees

For a week now? LOL.

[seabeyond]

13. ya know. nt

[BainsBane]

20. Ain't that something?

Can you imagine nursing poutrage over a single video that long?

[Harmony Blue]

121. What video?

And I never learned what a feefee is in kindergarten? Please enlighten me haha.

[Jamaal510]

189. "Feefee" is slang for "feelings". nt

[Harmony Blue]

193. Thanks

wasn't sure.

[treestar]

132. This^^^^^^

If you learn you've been doing something offensive you can 1 - stop doing it or 2 - try to argue it's hard wired and you can't help it.

2 leads you naturally into sexism.

[Harmony Blue]

141. I am not going to apoligize for something I have done nothing wrong for

and I do not believe my opening post is sexist. DU has standards and some have argued that thee is a conspiracy to oppress a subset of DU. I argue that isn't the case, and the accusation of rape culture existing on DU is what I am challenging.

[Whisp]

14. who asked you to?

voices in your head? sometimes those voices do need some heed.

[NuclearDem]

15. No one asked you to.

[JaneyVee]

16. First provide a link to anyone asking you to apologize for being a male.

Then we'll address the rest of your complaint in a timely manner.

[polichick]

173. :)

[LumosMaxima]

17. Women aren't going to apologize for

bringing attention to the problem of rape and working to change our culture, either.

Welcome to my ignore list.

[BainsBane]

18. Is DU somehow immune to rape culture?

So when all those guys come into threads to insist that the accused rapist is innocent and the victim a liar, that's a figment of my imagination. When they insist women should dress appropriately, not drink, and not go out after dark if they don't want to be raped, that has absolutely nothing to do with rape culture. When they insist that rape prevention PSAs that mention the word men, once, are "misandrist" and the only acceptable rape prevention campaigns are those that seek to control women's behavior, that's not rape culture. "When they misrepresent the facts to insist false allegations of rape are commonplace, that isn't rape culture. When they insist rape isn't really a problem because it's prevalence in the population has declined with other violent crimes, that isn't rape culture. When someone says that a rape victim who had the nerve to report her rapist to police should get what's coming to her, that's not rape culture. When men insist women shut up about rape and domestic violence because the posts are illegitimate if they aren't about male victims, that isn't rape culture.

Only it is. Rape culture defined: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_culture

No one need apologize for being male. Nor is being male an excuse for denying the existence of something as obvious as rape culture because frankly most men are not that out of it. One might like certain individuals to consider that lives besides their own have some value, but then some people are simply not predisposed to care about anyone who isn't exactly like them. I however know what I'm dealing with, so I expect exactly nothing. I don't seek an apology. I am instead eternally grateful I do not have to encounter them in my real life.

[rrneck]

19. An exerpt...

Rape culture is a concept that links rape and sexual violence to the culture of a society,[1] and in which prevalent attitudes and practices normalize, excuse, tolerate, and even condone rape.[2]

Examples of behaviors commonly associated with rape culture include victim blaming, sexual objectification, and trivializing rape. Rape culture has been used to model behavior within social groups, including prison rape and conflict areas where war rape is used as psychological warfare. Entire countries have also been alleged to be rape cultures.[3][4][5][6][7]

Although the concept of rape culture is used in feminist academia,[8] there is disagreement over what defines a rape culture and to what degree a given society meets the criteria to be considered a rape culture.[3]

[Major Nikon]

84. In other words it means whatever who is claiming it wants it to mean

That way if you suggest porn is up and rape is down and the idea that porn causes rape is nonsense and dog forbid you go as far as float the idea that exposure to pornography might make some people less likely to commit sexual crimes, you must be a rape apologist and a MRA.

[rrneck]

98. Yep. nt

[NaturalHigh]

109. That's pretty much what I've always thought.

Some of the posts I've seen lately just confirm that.

[Harmony Blue]

143. There is some interesting information that I will have to sit down and read

thank you.

[sir pball]

26. How about refusing to excuse maleness?

I'm sure you know I don't hang out in Men's Issues, nor am I an MRA; I certainly didn't take any offense to the Indian PSA.

But...I'm a man, I have a penis, and I'll cheerfully admit I want all the sex*! And I also know, as deeply in my being as I can know anything, that I don't have any right to take it from a woman, any more than I have a right to hit a random person on the head and take their wallet. If I want the sex I need to behave in such a way that will make the woman with whom I wish to make the two-backed beast also feel the same. Her vagina belongs to her, and if I want to be in it she better damned well want it that way.

[BainsBane]

29. I want sex too

I see no problem in your wanting sex, or wanting sex with women. I'm pretty fond of sex myself. I see nothing to excuse.

[sir pball]

33. Because, well, see my direct response

Apparently thinking sex is a currency that we can all trade equally without being expected is "Put Out Or Get Out Male Thinking"

What's wrong with that?

[BainsBane]

36. I see

I think it's unfortunate. Sex should be something that's shared. Women (at least I do) want sex every bit as much as men do. We tend to be more discriminating about with whom we have it, but that's not universal either. My advice for any man who thinks women don't want enough sex is to focus more on pleasing your partner and ask her what that takes. I think then you'll find she wants it every bit as much as you do.

[sir pball]

40. Oh...The Future Mrs. loves and adores, well.. (don't read if you're delicate)

Being enthusiastically jumped and, erm, worshipped, sometimes several times a day..

I think I'm still being a bit lighthearted about it all, not lacking seriousness about the issues but looking at it as a formerly free and loose young man in NYC, with the utmost respect for your choice to say no as much as mine. I know women want sex, and I know they're pickier. I know that as a result of that, to make a woman with whom you haven't had sex before wish to bed you can be a challenge, and that you need to rise to it without any expectations or demands. I'm also still framing this outside of committed relationships.

Anyhoo, to be quite blunt.
It's her CHOICE to "put out", to be crass, and my responsibility to make her CHOOSE to. Respectfully, because you've been quite, is that a non-rapey way to be a sexual man?

[BainsBane]

45. It's also your choice

Surely there are women who would like to have sex with you that you would choose not to. The difference is you don't approach those women. If they approach you, you extricate yourself from the situation before sex is ever on the table.

For example, Idris Elba still refuses to call. It matters not how much I pine away, I don't get to have sex with him. Those, however, are the breaks.

[sir pball]

50. Oh, of course.

If she's not into me I leave, I don't walk around saying "hey baby let's fuck" ever, you have to interact in stages. Anything else is just creepy.

Heh. I'll admit to having had a few drinks and having typed all that stream-of-conscious. That's just how my train of thought works, even at the bar with booze. I think we're having trouble communicating more than anything.

Don't feel too bad...Charlize Theron hasn't called me OR TFMP back and we'd both do such horrid things with her..

[Boudica the Lyoness]

127. Pure bullshit

I know plenty of men who are very discriminating who they have sex with, and would rather go without sex than mislead a woman, or have sex with someone they are not into, or intend a future with. Furthermore, there are many women who would sleep with any man, just for sex.

I think the biggest problem here is that some woman had rotten-to-the-core fathers, who used and abused women, including their own mothers, and then they went on to make bad choices of their own. Because they didn't know any other kind of man and thought all men were the same.

I, on the other hand, had a good, hard working, decent dad. Married good and raised good decent sons...now well into adulthood. All my uncles and male cousins are decent loyal, hard working men. When I was single I ran into some horrid men, but I didn't keep them around to use and abuse me.

Also, generally speaking, woman don't want sex as much as men...I'm thinking of being pregnant and all that woman stuff we go through. Husbands can be always up for it, so to speak.

I happen to love men and prefer their company any day of the week, than being around a group of looking to get butt hurt, angry women. That's how you are coming across to me.

BTW; I'm 60 and don't yap day and night on the internet about women's rights. I've actually done things that improved the lives of women and once it cost me my job. I knew it, and did it anyway.

[BainsBane]

142. Next time try reading what I actually write

Your rant is frankly bizarre and has nothing to do with anything I have said.

[seabeyond]

145. what a bullshit post. lol. you may not want sex, but please do not assign that to all of us.

going along the same societal conditioning that has been holding us down. if you are not into sex that is your business and right. but, it is not your place to define me or my sexuality.

[Harmony Blue]

146. Good post

Let me add that our society currently portrays positive male role models for comedic value or incompetent through media. So young boys see this and don't want to be associated with a comedic punch line or seen as a buffoon. So most young males are very hesitant with the idea of marriage and fatherhood.

[MrMickeysMom]

95. It is a currency, sir pall...

just like power and money (which really isn't much of a currency, come to think about it)

[sir pball]

96. Well, yeah.

To be traded EQUALLY. Apparently I wasn't clear that SHE can say NO as well.

Of course, Lysistrata springs to mind as well. And the Spartan wives threatening "Come home with your shield...or on it."

[Harmony Blue]

148. You associate singular viewvpoints as a collective?

Culture is transmitted via a collective.

So yes I don't buy your argument that there is rape culture on DU. I disagree.

[BainsBane]

150. Multiple people engage in its perpetuation

So it is collective. DU is part of the US and in my experience there is more sexism here than in the broader community.

[Harmony Blue]

158. A collective has to be organized cohessively

Singular opinions are not part of a collective.

Also DU has members outside of the United States.

[BainsBane]

169. You obviously have no idea what the word culture means

culture is not "organized cohesively." Why are you so determined to deny the existence of something so obvious?

[Harmony Blue]

183. Here is the defintion of culture

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/culture

"the beliefs, customs, arts, etc., of a particular society, group, place, or time

: a particular society that has its own beliefs, ways of life, art, etc.

: a way of thinking, behaving, or working that exists in a place or organization (such as a business)"

Your argument doesn't make logical sense that is why I deny the existence of rape culture here on DU.

[kwassa]

190. Rape culture fits within your third definition

: a way of thinking, behaving, or working that exists in a place or organization (such as a business)"

A way of thinking that exists here. This is a place. It has to exist here, as all types of people participate in this forum, under the very big tent of the Democratic party. Being progressive in politics doesn't indicate anything about attitudes towards women, necessarily.

[Harmony Blue]

192. Then provide a link

if this way of thinking of such a collective exists here on DU.

Why is it so hard?

[Comrade Grumpy]

160. "There is more sexism here than in the broader community." Really?

I don't know where you live, but for most places in the US, I would posit the opposite. Turn on the TV, for starters. Go to your local bar on a weekend night. Listen to teenage boys and girls. Listen to popular music.

This place is positively uptight compared to "the broader community." For better or worse.

[Harmony Blue]

199. Yeah DU is like an oasis

compared to the rest of the world out there. To suggest that there is more sexism here on DU than the broader community doesn't stand up to logic. Reality is that here on DU disagreements are more prominent and discussions actually happen. So differing of opinions are more common than your everyday life.

[sir pball]

21. Hmm. Here's what I think, I've pondered OP'ing it but I honestly don't have time to deal with that.

I mean, being able to interact and involve myself in a potentially high-response post...I have trysts with DU but never got to the point where I'd start a major discussion. Anyway...

I was always raised to respect women as equal humans. Never had any gender bias whatsoever...actually, my mom was the Obie with the SCSW/Columbia dual-masters breadwinner while my dad indulged his art, making OK money but certainly not enough to support a family of 4; for almost my entire childhood it was the female paying the bills, getting us healthcare, basically providing for the family.

That being said, women are unspeakably desirable...but it's not my right as A Man to have them, quite the opposite. It's their right as A Woman to bless me with whatever rewards they choose based on what I can offer in return...at its simplest, a gender-equal yet gender-based transaction. Maybe money or goods or maybe just some satisfying skills. I think that's the lynchpin of third-wave feminism and one of the reasons it's maybe not ready for primetime; strippers and hookers and porn stars are using their leverage in possessing that which us men admittedly want to pressure us into bargaining, instead of demanding. I think guys throwing money at a girl for a flash of nipple is (besides rather pathetic) somewhat revolutionary - even today in quite a bit of the world he could legally just rip her top off. Ditto casual sex. I've done it, and it's been great fun, and it's all revolved around how well we can mutually physically please each other. Yeah, alcohol was involved, but I was in no more shape to consent than she was and more than once she took the initiative. Now that there's a future Mrs. Pball the dynamic is a little different, sure...but I wouldn't be happy with random girls groping me, either. Look up "implied consent" sometime, we both got our licenses with each other.

Basically...girls are fuckin' hot and I want all the sex!
..but I have to act in such a way that makes them want to have all the sex with me, because they have an incontrovertible human right to freely consent, or deny. Their bodies are no more mine than any man's.

[seabeyond]

23. do women, one way or another, always have to be "selling" sex instead of just simply getting, along

with a man. can i not have sex without being paid for it? you have me offering my body to a man for one thing or another. how about if i am equally taking along with him. why is my sexuality on the back burner to the mans. i do not get why you would say this about women. one way or another... something the man is offering the woman for sex.

doesnt that sound just wrong?

[sir pball]

30. Of course not, one way or the other. Poor choice of words.

My use of the word "transaction" wasn't meant as "selling" in a market sense, it was a poor choice of words. Most of the time in my experience, and as it should be, the "currency" is mutual pleasure. I want to convince you (HYPOTHETICALLY) as a woman that it will be pleasurable and rewarding to have sex with me, as it will be the same for me. I was saving words, at a cost. Do you see my concept?

I think, in the context of men who realize they have no right to a woman's body, that it can be a very valuable thing to sell...but that's an entirely different discussion.

[seabeyond]

55. here we go.

It's their right as A Woman to bless me with whatever rewards they choose based on what I can offer in return...at its simplest, a gender-equal yet gender-based transaction. Maybe money or goods or maybe just some satisfying skills.

i am not "blessing" you any more than you are me. and my reward should be perceived as whatever reward you are getting. and no, not a transaction.

a man has to say yes, just as a woman. sometimes a man is no more in the mood than a woman. i am not paying him some way, any more than he is me

it is the conditioned image of the two genders. the woman is giving, and the man is taking.

until we get away from THAT concept we will continue to have problems.

if the woman is perceived as giving, her sexuality automatically takes back seat.

i have never been much into the concept that it is my role to give it... in any manner. and certainly not as some reward.

I think, in the context of men who realize they have no right to a woman's body, that it can be a very valuable thing to sell...but that's an entirely different discussion.

yup, thinking i pretty well interpreted what you were saying. damn to be all that in a man

[sir pball]

64. Oy vey. I'm deliberately coming at this from one direction but here goes

We're all equal from the get-go, I thought that was implied and I should have been clearer. Women have the exact same right to approach men and try to convince them of their prowess in order to earn their company. Had it happen. Been seduced by women, actually.

Sexual intercourse is an exactly even and equally desirable currency that should, ideally, be bartered in equal fashions between both genders. Simplistically, I can say no, she can say no. I can think she's hot and say yes and she can think I'm hot and say yes. Is that ok?

[seabeyond]

70. ok. i think the simpler would have been your original first two paragraphs then a simple

we want to screw around. lol. would have worked.

[sir pball]

72. I did get overly complicated, yeah

But what's so wrong with just getting drunk and messing around with hot strangers?*

As I said before - I think my problem is communicating, not my actual mentality

*-assuming all boundaries are respected

[seabeyond]

74. assuming boundaries are respected...

been there, done that. i see no problem at all.

[sir pball]

78. Of course.

No always means no no matter what. I think sex, and the seeking of it, can be an immensely fun and varied game in the basic parameters of human rights. So let's all just go have a drink and hit on each other (with the right to say no, of course)!

[Skittles]

28. this assessment is really pitiful

reminds me of WOMEN PUT OUT and MEN GET - ugh

[sir pball]

31. So sex isn't fun?

If it IS fun, how DO I seek it from the ladies? If a woman doesn't "put out", woe is me for failing and I'll happily give her a ride home. And won't rape her!

[Skittles]

32. ugh

DONE HERE

[sir pball]

37. *chuckles* never should have mentioned third-wave.

I won't argue, please explain to me the error of my ways so that I may become even more enlightened and respect properly.

Seriously. If she doesn't want to "put out" that's her choice and I'll be just fine with that, polite and respectful. Might ask if she wants a ride home since it could be awkward but HER BODY HER CHOICE. What the hell is the problem with that, exactly?

[Katashi_itto]

73. The concept of a male having an "enlightened attitude" is beyond the immagination of a number

of the ultrafermnists on DU

[Ms. Toad]

97. No - it was the gender stereotypes embeddeded in at least two descriptions

Last edited Sun Dec 29, 2013, 09:32 PM - Edit history (1)

women as gatekeepers who bestow sexual favors, and a man whose obligation it is to "make her choose"

Granted, sir pball said he would not force himself on a woman, but the description - at least twice - was not one of an equal, freely chosen, sexual relationship. And, although I do not think he consciously meant it - "make her choose" to "put out" is an express statement of force. (One of the emotional aspects of rape is that the rapist often creates a false choice - one in which he makes the survivor "choose" to "put out" because the alternative "choice" (I will do the same thing to your sister; I will kill you; etc.) is worse.)

Talking about the nature of consensual sexual relationships using the language of force, and stereotypical gatekeeper/gatecrasher roles is part of rape culture. Making it conscious - as seabeyond did by challenging it (resulting in the poster's self-awareness and change in how he described those consensual interactions) is part of what is necessary to change rape culture. And trivializing and denigrating those who point it out makes it harder to change.

[TroglodyteScholar]

105. So by acknowledging, and even insisting, that a woman has a choice...

This poster has offended you. Wow.

Sooooooooooooooo... if you remove the choice from the woman, it seems to me like that would be rape.

[Ms. Toad]

115. No. What he said was that it was his responsibility to

MAKE HER choose him (and hers to put out). That dynamic was expressed in two separate subthreads, and (initially) repeated (and rationalized) without any understanding of why it was setting off flags.

The language embeds both sexual stereotypes (woman as gatekeeper, which the man has to break through in order to get some), and expressly uses the language of force ("make her&quot when describing a choice where none should be involved.

That dynamic - and the fact that it was being used without any awareness of it (it had to be pointed out by at least two other people) is part of the rape culture that is being dismissed.

[xulamaude]

139. Perfect. Thank you. nt

[Soundman]

119. And another one bites the dust,

Hey they're going to get you too, another one bites the dust.

As long as you have been here you should know the only appropriate male response allowed is I agree 1000 percent with what you say. And or +1,000,000. Any response other than group think will not be tolerated.

[seabeyond]

155. lol. our simple disagreeing, which you advocate the right, allows you to then say we

deny you the right to disagree?

seems to me you are saying soundman, you should be able to say whatever you want, without disagreement. i am not the one going on about others disagreeing with me. you are.

it seems like you are the one demanding group think

[Soundman]

170. Not what I am saying at all.

What I am saying is there are a handful of self identified feminists, that do not debate fairly or ethically as far as far as I'm concerned. I see a lot of the ole this one sets them up, and the others knock them down approach to debate. But it isn't really debate at all. What it comes down too is twisting others words to prove a prove a point. Every post needs to have a femist positive filter applied (even if the topic isn't related to feminism) or else. At least that is how I feel when I read a lot of this stuff. And based upon certain transparency pages I would guess the community as a whole must somewhat agree with me. Not me personally, but the like minded folks out here.

[seabeyond]

171. lol. too many are really all over dismissing what i say with transparency page. very transparent.

i disagree. i get that you see that is what happens. i do not agree that is what happens. i know you have said some very offensive stuff about womens positions and role of man. you are going to be called on it. i doubt you will change your mind. i doubt people will stop calling you out on it.

meh...

[Soundman]

172. Hard to say,

I think debating hard core wing nuts for (well since before there was the internets) has desensitized me and I sometimes type before I think. I also think context is lacking in a lot of what people are saying. And said group I was referring too tend to add their own context to statements.

I change my mind and opinions on a regular basis. I learned from your post in the thread I was locked out of. I didn't know that only a small amount of rapes are spur of the moment on the street ordeals. I was coming from the incorrect thought that almost all rapes of woman occurred this way and therefore IMO preventable to a certain degree. I was wrong. And I really really do not like trampling on another's feelings. It's a very negative trait that I learned from my mother, and have spent my entire adult life trying to un-learn.

I'm a victim of rape and abuse myself. It has managed to really fuck up my life. It has left physical and mental scars that have made my life pretty difficult. Imagine planning your life around not using public restrooms especially when your work takes you out in the public. I trudge on and don't really dwell on it, I have never known anything different. I have never mentioned it to anyone other than my wife. And the world, lol. So I may be a little short with others who want too tell me about rape, especially if they aren't one of the club. Okay now I have wondered way, way off base.

I would hope that the ones who seem to get the flack here could try and appreciate that by self identifying as a democrat you are for equal rights for all. That includes woman's rights. And the right to be left alone, and not objectified, ogled, whistled at or whatever. These are not things that I do, nor any other men that I know that identify as democrat. Now the wingers I know, that's a different story, but they aren't here, we are.

[seabeyond]

177. soundman....

after reading your post, all i want to do is give you a huge ass bear hug of love....

truly

and thank you. thank you for just posting, in the manner you did, so that i am able to better understand you and where you are coming from. honestly, i much prefer and tend to see the good in people, all people. the worst of the worst, shines in good. and i know every person i have a confrontation with, there is also the good of who they are.

i am just so damn impressed with this post, and walking past the hostility to understanding. that impressed.

if i get confrontational with you in the future, whack me up side the head and remind me, talking is a good thing with you. cause with talking comes learning and growth for both of us. that is what is of value.

we have to be able to have our differing opinions without creating the worst of who we are.

in rape, i had a totally opposite experience. it did not hit me. hold onto me. stay with me. and maybe in a way it is cause i am female, and the worst of horror is for a man to experience that helplessness where as women kinda lives it for a long long time in different ways. but, then i know women that are effected like you also, so i hate to minimize their experience. for me? it truly was not about me. i was able to put it behind. and it was not behind the bushes kinda experience.

thank you. i can put away garbage i gave you, and listen to your voice. what you say.

i appreciate it.

peace dude. you left a mark.

[Soundman]

179. Thank you

Very much. Your kind words are much appreciated.

[trumad]

117. LOL...

Stuck your toe in did ya?

I'm getting in all kinds of trouble going after these knucklheads and I'm beginning to realize that it's like battling a bunch of teenage boys.

They say things that make your jaw fall open and you say---huh?

[seabeyond]

157. i am so glad to hear that. the portrayal of who a woman is, is as foreign to me, as the

portrayal of who a man is. i have not seen these caricatures in real life.

even with teenage boys.

[RobertEarl]

22. Are you not man enough?

You can't even admit that we do have a culture that winks at rape? A real man will admit that women have reason to be afraid of being raped and not having justice served properly for the crime committed against them.

[Harmony Blue]

124. Instead of towing a line that is perpetuated without solid basis lets examine what culture is first

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/culture

"the beliefs, customs, arts, etc., of a particular society, group, place, or time

: a particular society that has its own beliefs, ways of life, art, etc.

: a way of thinking, behaving, or working that exists in a place or organization (such as a business)"

Basically culture is a collective belief system by a group or organization of people. How is this culture transmitted from one generation to the next? Throughout human history, and pre historic times culture was transmitted from one generation from another from the parents or elders to the youth. No one is born knowing culture, so iIF rape is a cultural phenomena then it must be learned right? So lets examine the mechanisms, people, and institutions responsible for teaching our children.

1. Parents - Most parents have an obligation from the government in our country to raise children that reflect the standards, morals, and ethics of our country. More specifically laws that they must abide by and they must teach their children to abide by the same. Parents don't teach children or condone rape culture explicitly, but it could be argued they do so implicitly. I would argue parents raising children have a hard time broaching the subject of sexuality in the first place. So rape culture is in another stratosphere.

2. Schools - This is another area where culture is learned and taught to young, developing children. When I was growing up the vast majority of my teachers were female, in elementary, middle school, and high school. In college that changed slightly with a split so to say. But even in my science courses a lot of my professors were female.

To back up my observations with evidence here is a link:

http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=28

Demographics:

"Among full-time and part-time public school teachers in 2007–08, some 76 percent of public school teachers were female, 44 percent were under age 40, and 52 percent had a master’s or higher degree. Compared with public school teachers, a lower percentage of private school teachers were female (74 percent), were under age 40 (39 percent), and had a master’s or higher degree (38 percent)."

I do not believe most females that currently teach were raised in a culture of rape, because most of their teachers were female and they have grown up to become teachers themselves. And I highly doubt they teach or perpetuate a culture of rape either in our scholastic institutions.

3. Peer groups that children associate with: It is often said that this is the core of rape culture however after further examination that doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Human beings always cluster with those of similar interests and form cliques. This social stratification becomes more prominent during high school and yet despite this stratification various clique groups do not condone or accept rape culture. At the apex of a high school clique groups is obviously the athletes, and most often accused of being part of rape culture. But in reality it isn't as common as most believe because these young boys/men have a lot of pride and social status. If they associate with males that do illegal acts like rape they taint themselves within their own social group. They have pressure to not associate with such boys/mens for thei lose favor with the girls/woman they are trying to seek validation from. Most of what high school boys learn is that they must seek validation with girls/women if they want any interaction with them. Thus, they learn that they can't associate with such males/boys fairly quickly. Girls/woman learn that they can communicate with each other to create a layer of protection and to warn others in their peer group or throughout the school of the behavior of certain males. Those males even if they are able to avoid the laws are still ostracized by their own peers. Where that doesn't happen however is when adults come to the aid of such perpetrators and condones such hideous behavior. However, that doesn't constitute rape culture. That constitutes illegal behavior which may lead that young person to commit other crimes as a result.

4. Media: Sexuality in the United States is not fully embraced due to Puritan beliefs systems still permeating throughout our society. With that said, we still are saturated with sexuality, but most children are not taught about sexuality at an early age in our country but they are exposed to media. Still, rape culture isn't portrayed that often in films or televeision, but they do exist because they are part of entertainment. Unfortunately children have a hard discerning the complexity that is sexual fantasy from real life though. Still, if rape culture is so prevalent in our society as many believe then media would have such depictions flooding and saturating. But actually in our society such sexual fantasies are considered a small niche, or a kinky type of feitsh outside of mainstream society.

Most rapes on college campuses are a result of a close friend or a significant other they are dating commits a rape. This to me is a singular action and not part of a collective or a peer pressure group that condones such behavior. What often is the cases with rapes in a college situation is most males are not taught sexuality properly and to be able to communicate properly (it is not that males are not capable of communication as well as females it is that they are socially conditioned not). In other words not to respect sexual boundaries but that to me does not constitute rape culture.

[RobertEarl]

214. Hey, don't strain yourself

Your last line says it: "In other words not to respect sexual boundaries but that to me does not constitute rape culture."

Yep, boys are not taught to respect sexual boundaries. That is the cultural mindset that has caused way too many women to have to suffer. We don't teach boys that they should not rape, ever. Never. You said it and that is almost your admission. Good for you.

[Scootaloo]

25. Could you apologize for being intentionally dense, then?

I mean, I'm pretty sure it's intentional, 'cause if it were incidental i'm not sure you could have figured out how to post this particular turd-stirrer.

[Egalitarian Thug]

213. +1

[pinboy3niner]

27. I just don't get male defensiveness at all

I'm sorry, but the perceived slights--real or imagined--don't ruffle my feathers at all. That's MY apology.

[RobertEarl]

35. It's reactionary

Some DU women are quite effective at rubbing men's faces in the dirt.

It challenges their masculinity; "How dare they talk to men that way!!"

[BainsBane]

49. It doesn't take much for some to feel attacked either

As a poster upthread observed, one little video for all this angst.

[RobertEarl]

51. Entitlement

Men feel they are entitled to deference being that we have sacrificed much. But real men do not, and can take whatever Truth is dished on them.

Having not seen the video I can't comment on that.

[BainsBane]

54. You'd be even more amazed

I'll provide it, so folks can see the absurdity of this whole week of poutrage.

[Scootaloo]

83. I struggle mightily to find what is supposed to be offensive there

Literally, I'm trying to find something to be offended by. A half-dozen internet peopel can't be wrong, after all, so i'm given them a benefit of the doubt.

I'm straight man. I look at women, and find some number of them visually appealing. Apparently I'm part of the group that "should" be outraged by this. But I'm just not getting it.

I'm not feeling targeted, I'm not feeling berated. Maybe a little self-conscious pondering about whether my glance might be her five-minute mouth-breathing stare? If that's what it's supposeed to do, I suppose it succeeds, and it just makes me consider a possible difference in perspective and think about what the person on the other end of the reflected photons is thinking... which is certainly not something that offends or irritates me.

Am I missing something?

[Ms. Toad]

99. Thank you.

Particularly for the self-awareness to recognize and think about whether your glances might be perceived differently by the women at whom you are glancing. That was the point of the ad - to invite men to experience things from a different perspective.

[Vattel]

114. Wow, that is so well-stated Scootaloo. I totally agree. I just don't see the problem here.

[PassingFair]

152. It's the mirror.

It is seeing their own rapacious faces leering back at them.
I didn't realize how powerful this video was until I saw this chain reaction.

[kcr]

101. And it turned into the feminists of DU hate men. It's still being discussed how awful we are.

I can't believe there's a big old 400+ thread going on right now about how divisive we are.

[BainsBane]

104. I looked in that thread briefly

It's ugly. People accusing other people of being rude, all the while gossiping and making far worse insults about people not part of the discussion.

[myrna minx]

113. I honestly don't know how this video sparked such howls of persecution.

Seriously. I just don't get it.

[Nika]

212. Great video, thanks.

[Harmony Blue]

153. It is not a challenge to masculinity

it is a challenge to human rights.

[NoOneMan]

180. "Some DU women are quite effective at rubbing men's faces in the dirt."

That doesn't sound like civil, constructive behavior.


If someone acts abusively and aggressively towards a person--even on the internet--it is absolutely reasonable for the receiver of such bullying to be offended and to even have their feelings hurt, regardless of their gender. Please do not perpetuate and thereby exploit (to shame) sexual stereotypes that deem "manhood" above being able to be insulted and hurt. We are all humans here, capable of feeling.

It is reasonable for anyone to react to abuse and bullying, and perfectly reasonable for anyone to be saddened by it (both personally, and in the context of seeing their community degrade). There is no shame in being a victim of internet abuse

[Agschmid]

34. I'm gay... Just putting that out there.

These DU sex wars go way above my head...

[pinboy3niner]

38. I'm not gay, but we seem to be in the same boat

Though, even as a straight male, I sympathize more with the women who are facing misogyny and obtuseness.

[one_voice]

39. I'm straight...

and married and most of the time I'm reading them going 'what the hell'.

[DustyJoe]

133. totally agree

Coming up on 46yrs of marriage and reading this op just makes me shake my head in wonder. Adding to the feeling of thank God that I am in no way having any need or wants of the current dating/relationship building this day and age requires. 'What the Hell' describes it well.

[sir pball]

41. Oh, I've seen how you degenerates behave!

And I should be so lucky!

[Agschmid]

42. Yah well we certainly queen it up sometimes...

[sir pball]

46. In all seriousness, it must be nice

To engage with people whose psychosexuality is identical. As I understand it, at least casually, there's none of this mess *gestures upthread*. We should all just get along so well.

[Agschmid]

56. No there certainly are...

Gender roles although they appear equal can be quite complicated in gay male relationships. Although both members of the couple suffer from the same condition... "Being male" ... the dynamic of the couple is just like any straight relationship. There still are some of the same relationship issues such as a unfairly dominant partner, there could be abuse, there can be spousal rape, etc. and don't even get me started on top vs. bottom...

Relationships are always complicated...

[sir pball]

67. I know, but with the weather in this discussion

Sometimes it's easier to just be snarky with somebody who will at least entertain it

[Agschmid]

81. Oh sorry... I get all holier than Francis sometimes!

[JI7]

43. are you a woman ? because many of these issues affect lgbt women also

[Agschmid]

44. Only on Thursday nights at tilt.

[pinboy3niner]

47. Heh!

[seabeyond]

63. lol lol

too cute.

[BainsBane]

76. you know what they say

pictures or it didn't happen.

[Agschmid]

80. I'm sure I'll regret this later when someone uses it for DU blackmail...

[BainsBane]

82. Awesome!

Love the blue hair. I've been wanting purple hair myself, but my hairdresser advises against it.

[Agschmid]

88. Wigs make anything possible.

[In_The_Wind]

90. Simply gorgeous!

[seabeyond]

92. that is fun Agschmid

thanks for sharing. very cool picture

[Agschmid]

93. I used the blur effectively, better than any anti aging lotion!

[cinnabonbon]

106. Gorgeous!

[Harmony Blue]

197. Agreed!

[bench scientist]

211. cheesecake!

legendary !

[alcibiades_mystery]

48. Oh fer fucksake

[TDale313]

53. My sentiments exactly.

[Shandris]

52. While I consider it a foregone conclusion that no one should need to apologize...

...for being male, I must admit that...

[Matariki]

57. Too bad no one is MODERATING it

[Shandris]

58. Or they are reticent to touch it for some reason.

But I'm inclined to agree with you. I really don't see what the -point- of this thread is/was.

[Agschmid]

71. It would be helpful if you felt an OP did not meet the SOP that you'd alert.

That way the hosts can get the alert and take action.

[Agschmid]

62. Yup.

[kcr]

66. But at least the Home Depot thread was locked right away

Didn't even reach 20 posts. We can all rest easy.

[Raine1967]

59. You don't have to.

You could, however, apologize for igniting flame bait.

Jeebus. What a loser post this is.

[demmiblue]

61. +1

[smirkymonkey]

116. +1000

[nomorenomore08]

201. + 1,000,000

[Deep13]

60. Okay.

You're asking for a link to rape culture? If you mean a link to a DUer saying in effect that he either has or intends to rape someone, I doubt a search would reveal that. What those who complain about rape culture mean is something far more subtle: repeating social norms that excuse male from aggressive (perhaps violent, but not necessarily) behavior. These are norms so ingrained in society that most people do not even notice them.

[Ohio Joe]

65. Hit and run shit stirring - nt

[Agschmid]

69. This thread most likely has your example...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4144944

Some DUers even victim shamed in that thread... That's not okay with me and certainly enables a rape culture.

[Ms. Toad]

102. Wow. That thread is pretty unbelievable.

I missed at the time. A lot of support - but also a lot of victim shaming and rape culture there - even after removal of what must have been some of the worst.

And I notice that Prism has not posted since then.

[Agschmid]

123. Nope he's gone for good I believe.

A loss for the board IMO.

[Ms. Toad]

184. There were references in the thread

about hoping he would stick around - which surprised me based on his visible reactions to the jerks (pretty neutral - far more neutral than they deserved).

[sir pball]

75. Ok, to restate my other post - SEX IS FUN

Maybe I wanna fuck you, maybe you wanna fuck me. I'll come on to you, you come on to me. I can say no, you can say no. If we both agree to not say no, let's chat. If we like where it goes...let's make the beast with two backs!

Is there some problem with this that I'm missing?

[Agschmid]

85. Juror 5 wins... Another reason late night juries (and Pat Benetar) rule...

Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE and said: You come on with a come on, you don't fight fair
But that's O.K., see if I care!
Knock me down, it's all in vain
I'll get right back on my feet again!

Hit Me With Your Best Shot!
Why Don't You Hit Me With Your Best Shot!
Hit Me With Your Best Shot!
Fire Away!

[sir pball]

86. That's the first jury I know I've survived.

Hell yeah!

And yes. Been drinking. In this debate (as with anything with the ladies, actually), it makes me better

[Agschmid]

87. .

[sir pball]

89. I wouldn't say "highly".

That's when the ladies slap me (AS IS THEIR RIGHT) and I do get hidden. Srsly, all my 2 hides I barely remember.

[jimlup]

79. 2nd

[quinnox]

91. Not only do I refuse to apologize, but I am very happy to be a man.

The man shaming by the usual suspects is ridiculous.

[ZRT2209]

94. I refuse not to put you on full ignore

[Harmony Blue]

203. Believe it or not

but I don't have anyone on ignore.

[intaglio]

100. A link to a culture? How?

A link to multiple posts insisting that there are a high percentage of false rape allegations?

A link to multiple posts which suggest that women are responsible for being drunk and being raped?

A link to multiple posts suggesting that women dress more modestly if they do not wish to be raped?

A link to multiple posts suggesting that some rape victims did not make their loathing of their rape clear enough?

A link to multiple posts suggesting that multiple women complaining about rape culture are "man haters"?

No-one is asking that you apologise for being a man but an apology from you is in order because you have blindly ignored posts containing bile, hatred, fear and denial.

[DanTex]

136. How about some links. Honestly.

Although I disagree with the tone of this OP, I honestly don't think that rape culture is present here at DU, outside of a small number of trolls. I agree that there is a problem with rape culture in society at large, but I don't see it on DU. Maybe I am blind.

[Harmony Blue]

154. I am waiting for the proof that

there is rape culture here on DU. Thus far I have received posts that tell me to man up, calling me a loser, or imply that my feelings are hurt. Reality is I just want evidence that there is a collective, or rape culture that exists here on DU. If a subset of DU is going to accuse this website of cultivating such a culture at least they could provide evidence that shows this. Thus far, there has not been any evidence.

[nomorenomore08]

202. I've certainly seen posts which, at the very least, edged toward those sentiments.

And other posts with at least the vague whiff of MRA-ness about them. I'm not looking for a witch hunt - I haven't called for anyone to be banned, have I? - I'm just calling 'em like I sees 'em...

[last1standing]

103. Can't you guys keep these asinine posts in the mens group and history of feminism?

Most of us are sick to death of seeing your tantrums splashed across the latest page.

[MrScorpio]

107. I wrote this for someone else, I think that you can use it too...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4227368

[NaturalHigh]

108. I hear you...

and I'm not going to feel guilty for disagreeing with about 85% of what the HOF crowd says.

[Harmony Blue]

130. Not to single out anyone (against DU rules)

but there have been implicit explicit accusations that DU condones rape culture or some members are part of it. I am standing up for the integrity of DU to be blunt, and I have not seen any evidence there is rape culture on this website. In addition no ones opinions or points of views are oppressed and there is no collective effort to suppress different point of views as long as you follow DU rules. I do not view it as an attack on my personally but it is an attack on all our members when implicit, and explicit, accusations such as these are thrown around.

[myrna minx]

110. Oh good gravy - this is like Christians wailing about persecution

or how Republicans claim they're always the victims of the big bad librul media. This post is silly and embarrassing.

[etherealtruth]

112. At what point were you asked to apologize?

I don't think any.

[trumad]

118. Start a flame thread---check

Do not replie in it. Check

[Logical]

128. How are you still posting with 8 locked posts in the last 90 days? n-t

[trumad]

129. Why are you obsessed with my transparency sheet.

Weird.

[Logical]

131. No, just wondering how you can get away with be so disruptive. I thought the rules changed. nt

[trumad]

134. I posted about an obvious hit and run thread in that Op

and you think it's disruptive. Have you noticed the Op getting his ass kicked throughout that thread? Of course you have but you focus on my uncontroversial post.

That's obsession.

as noticed in my previous post.... That's just weird.

[Logical]

135. LOL, looked at your profile to see what your deal was. Said 0% on the jury. Simple. Make sense now?

[ChisolmTrailDem]

137. From what I can see, both of you have been acting pretty weird lately. n/t

[trumad]

151. Weird---

[Logical]

162. I agree you are. Getting that many posted locked is unusual. Temper issues. n-t

[trumad]

163. No---douchebag issues.

[xulamaude]

164. Hey! How the hell are you getting away

with saying "douchebag"?! Don't you know that's not allowed?!

[Logical]

167. You are weird and a douchebag? Wow, at least you admit it. n-t

[trumad]

174. I'm the first to admit that...

But I ain't as big of doucebag as some of the whiners here on DU.

[NaturalHigh]

138. I don't think they get posting privileges suspended until Jan 7 or 8.

He's getting in as much as he can before then. I'm just wondering if he will go on an epic rant the day before.

[Harmony Blue]

198. I did not know this beccause I thought it was in effect already

so it has been delayed for a bit.

[MineralMan]

120. Were you asked to apologize? If so, I haven't seen any

such requests.

[marshall]

122. You can be whatever you want to be in cyberspace

We are all represented by words here, not faces or bodies that may connote gender, age, size, etc.

[Harmony Blue]

194. This is true

you can never tell over the internet.

[Logical]

125. LOL, dramatic much? n-t

[cali]

126. please provide a link for anyone on DU demanding you apologize for your gender.

What? You can't do that?

shocking. NOT.

thanks for the dim flamebait

DU is diminished by crap like your OP.

[quinnox]

140. I just got a ridiculous hide,

that is what I get for not having any names on my jury blacklist. I will change that real quick, lesson learned! I have a good idea what names and what group they come from to put on my blacklist.

[Vashta Nerada]

144. Yeah, I got a ridiculous hide yesterday as well.

For using a word that has received a free pass many times before here on this very forum.

[quinnox]

147. We obviously have a small group who are furiously using the alert button on any duers whom

they deem as not falling in line with their strange ideas and beliefs. I have a feeling I know who they are too...

[seabeyond]

168. prove it. oh wait, you cannot. just an unprovoked attack on fellow duers.

[pinboy3niner]

149. SOLIDARITY, BROTHER!

[Iggo]

206. Hi sign!

[Brickbat]

156. Way to take a stand, bro. Impressive.

[Harmony Blue]

159. Thank you

[Brickbat]

161. .

[seabeyond]

166. i love will. the is a purity in his expression. blunt, straight, sincere. so cute. nt

[DisgustipatedinCA]

165. I'm blue-eyed and left-handed, I'm pissed off, and I vote!!!

Just you wait until I find something to vote about.

[Orrex]

188. I thought that we eradicated you lefty swine decades ago

So much work remains...

[Iggo]

176. Jeez.

[seabeyond]

178. lol...

i dont know. i am kinda liking this thread cause for me, there was actually some learning and growing. that always warms me up.

you dude, though.... your



has me gigglin' for whatever reason. maybe cause it is so so so often.

[JoeyT]

182. Refusing to apologize for being white when no one asked them to is a central tenet

of the Ku Klux Klan and other white supremacist groups. Refusing to apologize for being Christian when no one asked them to is a central part of Christian Identity and other theocratic right wingers. Refusing to apologize for being male when no one asked them to is one of the things MRAs run around yelling all the time.

I don't make a habit of chronicling rape culture on DU, but if I were required think of some, it'd be your OP. That or the time someone admitted to having raped someone and a bunch of people were defending them and applauding their courage.

[Harmony Blue]

186. Yes I am white, male and christian

but that doesn't make me less of a human being and no I refuse to apologize for existing. The complaints department doesn't exist on DU and if you want to file a complaint take it up with my parents.

[nomorenomore08]

205. What about "no one asked you to apologize" didn't you get? You're still going with the same

overly defensive act as before. I'm an atheist/agnostic, but otherwise I'm a white male who's never apologized, nor been asked to apologize, for an accident of birth. The "refusal to apologize" seems more like a strawman used against people who rightly attempt to address ingrained cultural biases.

[JoeyT]

210. Whoosh!

No one has asked you to apologize for any of the three. That's the reason it's considered the behavior of hate groups: Insistence that any group that isn't them being allowed on a higher perch, even if it isn't in parity with their position, is demanding they apologize for existing.

It's the attitude behind the bullshit war on Christmas that fires up every year: The acknowledgement of the existence of other religions is suddenly direst persecution to people that are accustomed to being treated as special. It's the reason kids frequently hate their younger siblings. They're so accustomed to being treated as one of a kind that when the attention is divided they feel neglected. They aren't actually persecuted or neglected. They're just being forced to share and they want no part of it whatsoever.

I'm male, too. And no one has ever asked me to apologize for it nor did I ever feel the need to. To stretch an allegory to the absolute breaking point, if someone has been tripped, I don't need to apologize for being vertical to offer them a hand up, provided I'm not personally the one that tripped them. Nor does their standing up inhibit my verticalness (Verticality?) in any way.

[cherokeeprogressive]

191. I'm glad I don't live in the vicinity of any MREs...

Because to see them running around and yelling all the time would be quite unnerving indeed.

[Bobbie Jo]

185. Damn right.

&sns=em

[seabeyond]

187. my son told me he was feelin' his manhood being challenged.

that was cute, funny. we giggled.

[itsrobert]

195. Is that your stripper name?

Harmony Blue?

I am picturing you at the Spearment Rhino doing lap dances and refusing to apologize for being male to the customers.

[Harmony Blue]

204. Actually no

sorry to disappoint. But I do like painting and blue is my favorite color.

[darkangel218]

209. And the jury allows personal attacks like this to stand

[YoungDemCA]

196. No one asked you to.

nt

[Rex]

207. Yes it is important for you to make a scene, the topic was dying down.

Some things on DU are as predictable as the Sun rising and setting.