What if solar got the same subsidies as fossil fuel?

[Playinghardball]

[JaneyVee]

1. Yes, but "Germany gets more sun than the United States"-FOX News

[RoccoR5955]

14. That's a big steaming pile of bovine fecal matter. n/t

[Enthusiast]

24. It's bullshit too.

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

[gLibDem]

25. Of what the morans at Fox don't know, or don't care to tell

is that Germany as the same solar index as Pennsylvania.

[BobTheSubgenius]

48. The only two areas of the US that are close to the amount of sun...

...that Germany experiences are Alaska and the PNW.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/02/08/germany-has-five-times-as-much-solar-power-as-the-u-s-despite-alaska-levels-of-sun/

Not arguing with you - the opposite, if anything. Yours was a good post under which to park that link.

[gLibDem]

49. Having lived in Pittsburgh I was impressed enough just knowing that

Germany's solar index matched Pennsylvania. I had know idea the US as a whole had such access to sun.

And with my daughter teaching in Arizona I was dumbfounded to see how little solar was used whenever my plane flights approached the runway.

[BobTheSubgenius]

47. I saw that clip.

Jaw-dropping stupid.....or mendacious, depending on your view.

[ChisolmTrailDem]

2. Off to the Greatest with ye! nt

[sadoldgirl]

3. Of course we should subsidize it, but

I have relatives in Germany and there is a problem they did not calculate in their equation. Yes, there are a lot of solar panels, but in order for the system to work they need a new grid. Since that is extremely expensive to build, they are kind of stalled with those projects. So, if we consider the panels we need to figure in a new kind of grid.

[ChisolmTrailDem]

4. Can someone with knowledge of this subject please expain the situation regarding the existing

grid and solar electric production?

Thank you.

[Iterate]

8. I'm slow, but I'll tell you more than you ever wanted to know.

See below for a start.

[solarhydrocan]

5. Perhaps if the US wasn't spending more than $2000 per SECOND on wars 8000 miles away

the US could start building a new grid straight away.


(these are figures from awhile back, click below to see updated estimates)

http://nationalpriorities.org/cost-of/

Bombing Syria (home of the "New Hitler" as Biden and Kerry said) was much more important than concentrating on energy independence.

Germany's renewable energy sector is among the most innovative and successful worldwide. The share of electricity produced from renewable energy in Germany has increased from 6.3 percent of the national total in 2000 to about 25 percent in the first half of 2012.[1][2] In 2011 20.5% (123.5 TWh) of Germany's electricity supply (603 TWh) was produced from renewable energy sources, more than the 2010 contribution of gas-fired power plants.[3][4] In 2010, investments totaling 26 billion euros were made in Germany’s renewable energies sector. Germany has been called "the world's first major renewable energy economy".

Germany has a goal of producing 35% of electricity from renewable sources by 2020 and 100% by 2050.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_Germany

What is the US goal regarding renewable energy? More nuclear plants?

[Champion Jack]

6. We need an upgrade to our grid anyway

Have, for a very long time

[ChisolmTrailDem]

9. This is my stand, and done so as part of a massive public works campaign on the order of

the New Deal and greater.

We need to build a new grid that looks forward 100 years and not backward 100 years. And the other things.

[Champion Jack]

28. Agreed

[Iterate]

7. Your relatives are misinformed.

To say "they need a new grid" is a wild exaggeration at best.

Not a miscalculation, but a planned change in the grid is threefold: to better integrate with the rest of the EU and the eastern German states, to add two N-S lines mainly for North Sea wind power distribution, and to integrate demand-side coordination. Obviously, if consumption is lower and demand can be coordinated with supply, then any new system that needs to be built can be smaller and cheaper.

Those are the large-scale plans. There are smaller ones as well, of course, but nothing is stalled. Big ambitions just take time.

[sadoldgirl]

10. Thank you for the clarification

Still, most people in Germany don't want to put much more money into it.

[oldhippie]

11. There's that. Also, .....

..... those incentives for solar cost somebody. Those subsidies cause my friends in Munich to pay about $0.36 per kWh, about three times what we pay in the US. Think about your monthly electric bill being 3X larger.

[Iterate]

16. Only about half of which is for the electricity itself, the rest is for taxes

such as the federal pensions, local government, and VAT. A household of three pays about 65-89 Euro/per month for electricity, which usually includes cooking and hot water. They use half as much electricity, and drive far less than half as much.

For that matter, gasoline is about $8+ per gallon, recycling/trash pickup, and water/sewer/gas are also high. Maybe the US should consider what "cheap" has purchased.

Germans have been paying around 2% of household income for energy since the 1990s, and that hasn't changed much. Don't know about the US.



I know what's coming next, so allow me to preempt by saying that wind/solar FiT part of the bill amounts to only 2-3 euro/month for a household = two bags of gummi bears.

[MH1]

36. And, the average German worker gets a ton more vacation time

than the average American worker. (At least it used to be that way)

Just throwing that in to point out that the whole quality-of-life equation is much different in Europe, so people should be careful of trying to isolate and directly compare individual bits of the economy.

[Egalitarian Thug]

41. Well yeah, sure. They, like most of the rest of the "developed world", have laws requiring

paid vacations for their workers, 4 or 5 weeks IIRC.

[Iterate]

42. The first thing you have to ask yourself -Why would anyone care?

I mean, the amount someone pays for electricity in Australia, Finland, or Cuba never comes up every time solar is mentioned. Why this constant misdirection about Germany, especially since as I've shown the retail price has little-to-nothing to do with solar itself. At first glance, it doesn't make sense.

But it turns out there's a story and a history behind the predictable claim. The first thing to keep in mind is that the electrical utilities worldwide have fine-tuned the most profitable mix of coal-nuclear-NatGas for their production over the past 50 years. The exact proportions vary from place to place. Second point, nuclear and coal in particular are not very flexible in meeting demand fluctuations.

As a utility you can even out demand with cheap rates, inefficient consumer goods for use after the workday peak, power discounts for night-shifts, stores that stay open all night, Las Vegas. Overproduce and overconsume is the American model.

Then along comes the solar wrench in the gears, lopping off the most profitable daytime peak demand. Anything new is expensive to install, but for solar the marginal rate of daytime production is nil. And you don't need a huge industrial infrastructure to produce it. The utilities' profit model is shot; coal is threatened first, but because nuclear power is the least flexible, it perhaps is threatened the most.

Net effect: Coal consumption per capita in the US is more than double that of Germany and remains above the 1965 level.

The 'expensive German electricity' meme got started in about 2000 when the rate increases were voted to reduce consumption and pay for some unrelated programs, but it really took off in the past five years, primarily among coal-nuclear power utility advocates, reporters, and bloggers. The threat to their utilities profit models has not gone unnoticed.

So when you see it mentioned, you know at a glance who you are dealing with. They mention it, and hope no one will understand why it is high. Mention it enough, and hope people will knee-jerk associate solar with high prices. Mainly, mention it and hope people are distracted.

For what it's worth, German drinking water is also the most expensive in the EU. I'm still waiting for that to be brought up, maybe by someone from W.Va.

[kristopher]

17. Except it isn't 3X higher, is it?

Any vision of renewable generation is accompanied by the standard practice of improving energy efficiency and Germany is no exception. The normal electric bill in Germany is less as a percentage of income than in the US. Also they have a much better system for helping low-income people meet their energy costs.

Most misinformation about renewables originates in the bowels of the electric utilities that own interests in coal and nuclear generation. The rise of community owned generation is the death-knell for their business model.

[oldhippie]

30. Yes, it is ......

No matter your fancy graphs and changing the subject to electricity bills as a percentage of income, my friends in Munich pay the equivalent of $0.36 per kWh for the electricity from their utility company. I pay roughly $0.10 per kWh. They pay 3 times as much per kWh then I do. That's a fact. Obfuscate about efficiency and percentage of income and taxes and social programs and the price of tea in China all you want. They still pay over three times as much per kWh of electricity.

On edit: OK, I can see where you mean that the typical German's electric bill isn't 3X higher than a typical American's bill. That is true, and for the reasons you state. But the price per kWh is 3X more, and the typical US consumer isn't going to cut his electricity use in half or more anytime soon. At the current consumption rates their bills would be 3X higher.

[abelenkpe]

20. That's odd

We have solar panels. Our meter sometimes runs backwards. Recently our monthly bill from DWP was for -15.83. You're saying my bills might be three times as much?

[oldhippie]

31. No, I didn't say that .....

I said that my friends in Munich pay 3X as much per kWh for electricity from their utility than the typical US price. In Germany, those subsidies to the renewable energy industry (and some other stuff) is priced into the cost that the typical consumer pays for electricity.

Good for you for having solar panels. I do too. I've been working with solar energy for over 30 years. It has its place and its advantages and we should be encouraging its use as much as possible. But you also have to keep your eyes open to the real world and the economic machinations taking place.

[MH1]

37. is that 3X only for what they use above what they produce?

I don't know much about how solar is done in Germany, but I'm presuming the average house has a few panels (or could) and there is net metering like here ... which would mean that their "usage" (from the electric company) is cut not just by conservation (using less electricity overall), but also by the amount that is produced from their own panels. Of course if they don't have panels then they don't get that reduction.

[roody]

32. My last elec bill was 2.28! Love the panels.

[roody]

45. Think about the cost to the planet. eom

[oldhippie]

46. How much is it?

nt

[gLibDem]

26. I want a link. I think your relatives are either

Wrong or misinformed. Not to be rude, but if there were issues in Germany Fox Noise wouldn't have to make shit up about how much sun Germany gets relative to the US.

[gLibDem]

29. Here is a link that debunks the prevailing lies.

It would seem your relatives may have been mislead by Der Spiegel, which I suppose is not surprising.

I can't speak to the quality of my link. So I guess you can take it with a grain of salt.

http://www.smartplanet.com/blog/intelligent-energy/myth-busting-germanys-energy-transition/

[cheri010353]

27. What if

we subsidize converters, battery back-up systems and generators as well as panels and get people off the grid altogether? Then we wouldn't need a new grid system and we wouldn't be susceptible to a terrorist attack on our power system.
Oh, never mind - that would be impossible for any number of phoney reasons.

[jwirr]

43. We built the first grid with cooperatives - wouldn't this be possible for them and us?

[ChisolmTrailDem]

12. Would you happen to have a source for that image? nt

[Playinghardball]

19. Source of the image..

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151980941751275&set=pb.177486166274.-2207520000.1391896122.&type=3&theater

[ChisolmTrailDem]

39. Thanks, Playinghardball. Looks like it may have origins beyond that page. I'd like to share it

on Twitter but would like to attribute it to its creator.

It's very encouraging to me to see the 2,694 shares and 3,808 likes on that infographic. Lot's a rightwingnuttery in the comments though, as can be expected when half the country is dumber than a rock.

[Overseas]

13. K&R. I want my oil subsidy taxes transferred to solar. And half my military taxes too.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

15. China sets new world record for solar installations GuardianUK

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/chinas-choice/2014/jan/30/china-record-solar-energy

China installed a record 12GW of solar power in 2013, doubling its rate of solar installations, according to preliminary figures. This is more than has ever been installed by any country in a single year and means that China installed three times more solar energy in 2013 than the total UK solar capacity.

No country has ever added more than 8GW of solar power in one year before, according to an analysis by Li Shuo, a policy and energy analyst at Greenpeace East Asia. It is also more solar than China had installed in all the years prior to 2013 put together, according to Li.

The preliminary solar figures are estimated by Bloomberg New Energy Finance (BNEF) which tracks energy figures globally. According to BNEF, this figure may even rise to 14GW due to a rush to install solar energy towards the end of 2013 due to a feed-in tariff for large photovoltaic projects coming to an end by January 1. A final figure is expected by March.

Other estimates have put the figure lower but these could also rise due to the end of year increase. The Chinese Renewable Energy Industries Association (CREIA) put the figure at 10.7GW and Chinese media has quoted industry sources putting the figure at at least 9.5GW.

[TheMathieu]

18. It's tragic that the switch to renewables has been lagging. nt

[kristopher]

34. Actually we are wildly exceeding expectations.

If you go back to 1990 and 2000 and look at projections (even by avid proponents of renewables) you'll find that the numbers we've achieved in the amount of capacity installed globally, the amount of manufacturing capacity in place, and associated reductions in costs place us in an area we didn't expect to get to until the mid 2020s.

We Still Need to Move Faster.

[jtuck004]

21. Then we would be China. They know how to invest in their country.

Nobody thinks they got all those jobs and that manufacturing through "free" trade, right? They have a huge debt, mitigated by our purchases, and it was created by purchasing assets from greedy Americans and their politician pets in both parties.

If we ever decide to invest in our country again, we can create the opportunity needed for the 100 million or so of our neighbors we have thrown under the bus to make others, both here and abroad, richer.

And then things will change...

[woo22]

22. We dont need subsidies

Solar will get there on it's own. Already happening in the developing world, solar has reached grid parity with diesel in India. We need advances in battery tech too, then solar's value will increase greatly as an alternative to fossil fuels. Oil is over, but not quite yet.

[gopiscrap]

35. welcome to DU

[Enthusiast]

23. It's pretty simple.

The fossil fuel industry does not want the development of alternative renewable energy sources. And since they control the politicians and the right wing media it will not be done.

[polichick]

33. If the solar companies could buy Congress, things would be different.

[raouldukelives]

38. K&R nt

[DirkGently]

40. Yep. n/t

[Progressive dog]

44. Good Question-from Reuters

"Utilities and consumer groups have complained the FIT for solar power adds about 2 cents per kilowatt/hour on top of electricity prices in Germany that are already among the highest in the world with consumers paying about 23 cents per kw/h.

German consumers pay about 4 billion euros ($5 billion) per year on top of their electricity bills for solar power, according to a 2012 report by the Environment Ministry."