Chomsky on Student Debt

[Ichingcarpenter]

:large

[exboyfil]

1. Here in Iowa at least

Tuition growth is mostly a function of reduced state assistance. Total dollars spent as percentage of tax revenues have stayed relatively flat, but we have increased K-12 spending a lot while taking it away from the public universities (I did this analysis about five year ago so things may have changed somewhat). Except for a 1 cent increase in sales tax we have not made changes to our tax code for many years. I don't necessarily think we should increase our taxes (those making over $60K already have that income taxed at 9%).

The money is not there. On the other hand it is insanely difficult for someone to get through college without parental support. The expected cost for four years is around $85-$90K. My daughter has a shot at an internship this summer (probably the best employment you can get baring doing more risky activity like roofing) and she will only make $4K if she gets it (probably 60 candidates for 10 positions). If she does not get it then I will probably send her to the university for the summer (this will secure her getting done in two years).

Tuition at community colleges is about half that at a university in our state. We also have a large number of classes available online with articulation agreements in place with the universities. I would say take as much as you can prior to going to the university and leaving home. That is what my daughter has done. I have paid for about half of her college classes while in high school, but the school paid for three of four of her expensive engineering university classes. I have also "double dipped" as much as possible with paying for community college classes that also satisfy high school graduation requirements.

1 year at university = $20-$25K in Iowa. Realistically as a full time student you can't earn more than about $7K ($5K take home) while going to school in a rigorous major. Sorry O'Reilly you won't get there painting houses.

[bemildred]

2. They don't want you to ever get the idea that the government works for you.

That would mean taxing people with money to pay for what you need.

[exboyfil]

3. Public spending on tertiary education is 1.3% of GDP

which is more than France, Germany, UK, and Australia. It is the same amount as the OECD and EU21 averages. Now this does depend somewhat on demographics, but for 20-24 year olds percentage of population.

U.S. 3.4%
Germany 3.0%
France 3.2%
Japan 2.7%
Europe 3.5%
UK 3.4%

I checked populations of 20-24 from http://populationpyramid.net/



http://www.oecd.org/edu/skills-beyond-school/48630949.pdf

[bemildred]

4. Right, and students still leave school asshole deep in debt.

That is not necessary, and you are not going to tell me different, because I went through our school system, went to school all of my life really, and did it without being encumbered with debt. And I have watched that free, high-quality public education system we once had here be debased in the name of profit, so that as you point out it now is quite expensive and yet serves the public poorly, leaving them with mediocre educations and massive debt.

[exboyfil]

6. You said the solution was taxes

I am saying that side of the equation is not the problem. You have hit the nail on the head. We need to be much more discerning about what we publicly fund in tertiary education (especially for profits and marginal private and public schools). That would make more money available and make what is spent more efficient.

Public universities should be obligated to find ways for students to reduce costs. You could start with textbooks - that is a racket. Another area would be to offer lower cost dorm and food options.

I agree with you and Chomsky that kids should not have to come out of school owing $60K. If you have a a upper middle class family that cannot help you, that is what you will owe even if you work as much as possible from the time you are 16. I have pushed the numbers for my older daughter and that is what I concluded.

[bemildred]

7. Right, that was a general explanation for why conservatives hate public services.

I.e. the Post Office, public schools, Social Security, Medicare, and regulation in all its forms.

You are right that the problem with our schools is not a lack of funds, it's how the funds are wasted.

[riderinthestorm]

8. 2012-1013 in-state costs for University of Illinois is $29,000 per year.

So try $120k for an in-state U of I student in Illinois!

Its insanity.

[exboyfil]

10. That is one reason we get so many kids from Illinois in

our state schools in Iowa. With the financial aid we offer it does not cost significantly more. My parents moved to Illinois in the 1980s right before I started to attend Purdue. I checked on in state U of Illinois and out of state Purdue, and Purdue still made financial sense.

Another nice thing about Iowa is that you do not have to walk on water to access our flagship schools. It is significantly harder to get into Illinois than Iowa State in engineering, and, while Illinois has a higher ranking, ISU is still a great school for engineering.

[riderinthestorm]

13. Its not just Iowa doing that. Many universities are recruiting out-of-state students

They've discovered they can offer the IL student 40% off the tuition as a scholarship.

That dollar figure is lower than the out-of-state tuition they would have paid, but still just a bit higher than the in-state tuition (and certainly lower than U of I in-state).

So the university MAKES money by attracting out-of-state students who are paying a higher tuition fee than in-state students. Win/win for the school. Still sucks for the kids though.... They're still having to pay exorbitant rates of $80-90k for a degree, even with the scholarship.

I know you've mentioned your daughter is interested in engineering. I have a story just for you....

My daughter's friend graduated valedictorian (out of 600+). Got accepted everywhere she applied including MIT as an engineering major.

She took the FULL ride PLUS $1000/month stipend at the University of Kentucky instead of going into any debt anywhere else. They're obviously really eager to pay bucks for her GPA, SAT and ACT scores boosting their averages PLUS they get the bonus of her adding to their student population "diversity" (out of state) AND she's a female in engineering (which judging from her past history clearly they're confident she'll be successful).

[exboyfil]

14. Smart young woman

My daughter's ACT is a little low for that type of consideration (29). She has locked up at least $4K/yr at ISU. Her only realistic other options would be Wisconsin or Minnesota, and, even though she has a sterling High School career including over 50 hours of college credit, we don't think the dollars would be competitive with what she can get from ISU (she still has several scholarships outstanding). She is looking at taking only 2 1/2 years to graduate (she wants to get out on her own and work).

[riderinthestorm]

15. I believe you've said you got another daughter coming up.

Kate's guidance counselor (Kate is the young woman in the story) told her of this "trick". She recommended that besides the powerhouse engineering programs that she was pretty confident she'd get into anyway, apply to a school that would really, really want her because the aid package would be so substantial she'd be set.

I have to admit, my daughter just did this. We're definite she'll get in to the 5 schools she applied to but we're really interested in what the aid packages are. One of them she applied to using the "Kate" principle.

We'll see.

My older girl finished in 3 years with a double major at Indiana University. Its definitely worth the extra effort to spare yourself (and her) the extra thousands of dollars if they're motivated and bright enough to pull it off. Good luck to your daughter!

[reformist2]

5. More students are just not going to pay it back.

[Jefferson23]

9. I keep hoping there will be a moratorium on student loans..this has evolved into a nigtmare

for youth and the toll it takes on future generations is not to be dismissed lightly.



K&R

[hughee99]

11. ...Says the professor from the $40k a year school.

He could always quit and go to work for Bunker Hill Community College and support a school that's charging a more reasonably price for education.

On edit: Yes, he's right about the cost of education, but of all the issues he discusses, here's one of the few where he could actually "put his money where his mouth is" and he chooses not to do that.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

12. Arrant nonsense.

Universities don't charge tuition fees for the absurd reasons Chomsky proposes, they charge them because they want the money.

There are arguments both for and against the state funding university education - the argument for being that it lowers the access barriers, while the argument against is that because even in countries where it's free university students are massively disproportionately from middle or upper class backgrounds it's a very regressive use of state funding.

I think the fairest solution is probably a graduate tax, but I'm not confident of that.