Pope Francis, "The worship of the ancient golden calf has returned in a new and ruthless guise...

[Playinghardball]

[bitchkitty]

1. Tell it, Francis! :) n/t

[bemildred]

2. Amen. nt

[onehandle]

3. Now a teabagger will primary him...

...oh, wait...

[calimary]

29. LOVE it!!!!!

[LeftishBrit]

60. Don't give Mr. Santorum ideas!

[Electric Monk]

4. Wall St. flaunts it. They're proud of it.

[magical thyme]

14. and then there's this...

[calimary]

27. Pardon me for saying so but - JEEEEEZUSSS!!!

Game, set, match.

I DO like this Pope. He's an irritant! To all the "right" people! As TRUE men (and women) of God should be, every second of every hour of every day. So far he seems to be the closest they'll ever get to a conscience. No wonder what he says bothers them.

[ChazII]

43. +1 Comfort the afflicted and

afflict the comfortable.

[JimDandy]

150. This is one Pope I wish would take advantage of the bullet-proof Pope-mobile. n/t

[Squinch]

30. HA! Coincidence?????? I think not!

[freshwest]

34. Definitely! Always amazing that the arrogance of that symbol has been widely accepted.

A rampaging bull, heedless of harm being caused, running over and destroying the lives of others in America and the world.

Nothing patriotic about that image. Nothing to be so proud about, unless one thinks killing others is a fine game to play.

[adirondacker]

90. Well, we don't call New York "The Empire State" for nothing.

I would prefer it "The Umpire State"

[jwirr]

38. Exactly what I was thinking.

[snooper2]

39. That is kind of like the Mooby Cow right?

[adirondacker]

135. Classic! nt

[passiveporcupine]

79. I like this one better

[img][/img]

[Common Sense Party]

85. Some guy donated that statue to the city, basically dumped it on Wall Street.

The cops started to get rid of it, and then people protested, so they moved it to a nearby park.

[Historic NY]

161. City doesn't own it....the artist still does..

along with four more.

[gopiscrap]

5. He's absolutley right

[freshwest]

6. Tears in my eyes. So few people grasp how anti-life and anti-human the economic system is. n/t

[hamsterjill]

26. Thank you. I cry, too.

I find myself tearing up quite often at the idea of the rich having SO much and the poor starving.

I'm not Catholic, but I'm happy to see Francis laying it on the line like this!

[HockeyMom]

7. As a former Catholic,

it is a step in the right direction. Let me know when he issues a statement that women aren't just breeding stock. Nothing personal to Catholic DUers, but that has my pet peeve for over 50 years, starting at 15 years old in Catholic school.

[theHandpuppet]

8. Institutionalized bigotry is one of the root causes of poverty and income inequality

I would be more inclined to be moved by pretty words if they were backed up by action.

[pnwmom]

21. His "pretty words" influence more than a billion Catholics and are a sword in the side

of Catholics like Paul Ryan and his ilk.

[theHandpuppet]

52. Really?

That must be why the Catholic Bishops have only upped their full-on assault on the rights of women and LGBTs.

[pnwmom]

93. What have "the Catholic Bishops" done exactly to "up" their "full-on assault"?

[theHandpuppet]

121. You mean like this?

I don’t like to have shit like this thrown in my face every day and be expected to say that it smells like roses.

http://rhrealitycheck.org/article/2013/10/06/at-any-cost-how-catholic-bishops-pushed-for-a-shutdown-and-even-a-default-over-birth-control/
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/mormon-church-weigh-gay-marriage-ban-22447394
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michael-oloughlin/anti-gay-bishops_b_4414016.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/21/thomas-paprocki-illinois-_n_4317432.html
http://www.advocate.com/politics/religion/2014/02/05/catholic-bishops-nigeria-thank-god-anti-lgbt-laws
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2013/12/31/bishops-ask-for-delay-in-contraception-coverage-mandate/
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/09/opinion/when-bishops-direct-medical-care.html?_r=0
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/03/us/lawsuit-challenges-anti-abortion-policies-at-catholic-hospitals.html
http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2013/12/13/3059931/indiana-bishops-marriage/
http://blog.seattlepi.com/seattlepolitics/2013/08/27/catholic-bishop-discrimination-against-gay-couples-is-just/#8830101=0
http://pulitzercenter.org/reporting/philippines-religion-tradition-abortion-family-planning-reproductive-health-public-policy-law-catholic-church
http://churchandstate.org.uk/2013/08/playing-hardball-against-womens-rights-the-holy-see-at-the-un/

http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/marriage-and-family/marriage/promotion-and-defense-of-marriage/defense-of-marriage-in-the-news.cfm
2014
Now Available! "El Matrimonio: Hecho para el amor y la vida" ("Marriage: Made for Love and Life&quot and accompanying bilingual Study Guide.
USCCB Subcommittee Chairman Strongly Endorses State Marriage Defense Act (January 10, 2014)
Letter from Archbishop Cordileone to Representative Randy Weber
(January 10, 2014)

2013
USCCB Subcommittee Chairman Responds to Recent Court Decisions (December 23, 2013)
USCCB Chairmen Praise Introduction of the "Marriage and Religious Freedom Act" in the Senate (December 12, 2013)
Backgrounder: Marriage and Religious Freedom Act (Click here for a printable version)

Letter from USCCB Chairmen to Senator Mike Lee (December 12, 2013)
USCCB Subcommittee Chairman Decries Marriage Redefinition and Misuse of Pope Francis' Words in Illinois (November 20, 2013)


USCCB Chairman Responds to Marriage Redefinition in Hawaii (November 13, 2013)

USCCB Chairmen Explain Opposition to ENDA (November 4, 2013)
Backgrounder: Questions and Answers about the Employment Non-Discrimination Act

USCCB Chairmen Applaud Introduction of The "Marriage and Religious Freedom Act" (Sept. 20, 2013)
Backgrounder: Marriage and Religious Freedom Act
En Español: Propuesta de Ley sobre el Matrimonio y la Libertad Religiosa

Letter from Archbishop Salvatore Cordileone and Archbishop William Lori to Representative Raul Labrador (Sept. 20, 2013)

Supreme Court Decisions on Marriage: 'Tragic Day for Marriage and Our Nation,' State U.S. Bishops (June 26, 2013)
Backgrounder: Proposition 8 and DOMA

USCCB Subcommittee Chair Applauds 'Victory In The Land Of Lincoln" (June 3, 2013)

USCCB Subcommittee Chair Calls Minnesota Lawmakers' Post-Mother's Day Marriage Redefinition 'Height of Irony' (May 15, 2013)

USCCB Subcommittee Chair Decries Serious Injustice In Delaware (May 8, 2013)

USCCB Subcommittee Chair Decries Marriage Redefinition In Rhode Island (May 3, 2013)

USCCB Subcommittee Chair Leads Prayer At March For Marriage (March 26, 2013)

http://www.usccb.org/about/pro-life-activities/index.cfm
Cardinal O'Malley Urges Congress to Prevent Public Funding of Abortion by Passing HR 7, January 28, 2014


The Death of "Pro-Choice" Richard Doerflinger, January 17, 2014 (en español)


Hearing on HR 7: No Taxpayer Funding for Abortion Act, Testimony to House Subcommittee on the Constitution and Civil Justice of the House Judiciary Committee, Richard Doerflinger, January 9, 2014


Twelve Things Everyone Should Know About the Contraceptive Mandate: The proposed "accommodation" is not current rule, but a promise that comes due beyond the point of public accountability; the original rule was finalized "as is." Find out the rest of the twelve things you should know! - January 6, 2014.


What Is Conscience Protection For? Aaron Matthew Weldon, January 3, 2014 (en español)


U.S. Bishops Issue ‘Special Message’ on HHS Mandate at Conclusion of General Assembly - November 13, 2013
Cardinal O'Malley Letter to Congress: Support Abortion Full Disclosure Act - November 1, 2013

[theHandpuppet]

123. Or this?

http://ncronline.org/news/global/spanish-bishops-back-bill-restricts-abortion-rape-health
http://www.hrc.org/nomexposed/section/the-catholic-hierarchys-devotion-to-fighting-marriage-equality
http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2014/02/11/3279291/mormons-evangelicals-catholics-marriage-equality-opposition-anti-gay/
http://www.orlandodiocese.org/e-scroll-current-issue/item/19721-usccb-tiltes-for-national-marriage-week
http://newwaysministryblog.wordpress.com/2014/02/08/scotland-passes-marriage-equality-but-adoption-by-catholic-agencies-in-question/
http://verdict.justia.com/2013/12/12/bishops-versus-womens-health-gloves

[AtheistCrusader]

149. Curse you!

Bringing your facts into this.

That's no way to debate an issue as contentious as this!


(:sarcasm

[theHandpuppet]

163. What facts?

You mean like these?

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2012/0521/Catholic-groups-take-fight-against-Obama-birth-control-rules-to-court
http://www.usccb.org/news/2013/13-200.cfm
http://www.ewtnnews.com/catholic-news/Vatican.php?id=9352
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/damianthompson/100258048/catholic-bishops-back-nigerias-anti-gay-law-uk-pro-life-leader-applauds-them/
http://www.mambaonline.com/2014/02/05/nigeria-catholic-bishops-back-anti-gay-law/
http://michael-in-norfolk.blogspot.com/2012/08/cameroon-catholic-archbishop-says-gays.html
http://www.usccb.org/news/2014/14-033.cfm
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/02/us-france-protests-idUSBREA110AG20140202
http://americablog.com/2013/04/catholic-bishop-andre-vingt-trois-violence-gay-marriage-france.html
http://www.splcenter.org/get%20informed/publications/Dangerous%20Liaisons/Dangerous%20Liaisons%3A%20Outlawing%20Homosexuality%20in%20Belize
http://www.gaystarnews.com/article/croatia-catholic-church-forcing-people-sign-against-gay-marriage130613
http://www.edgeboston.com/news/religion/news/145063/in_wake_of_anti-gay_violence,_catholic_cardinal_launches_new_attack_on_same-sex_families
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/05/22/1093499/-Catholic-bishops-coordinate-lawsuits-against-Obama-administration-over-birth-control-mandate

From the local parish to the UN:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_at_the_United_Nations
94 member-states of the United Nations have sponsored the declaration in support of LGBT rights in either the General Assembly, the Human Rights Council, or in both. Sponsoring nations are listed below (Edited)

Among the first to voice opposition for the declaration, in early December 2008, was the Holy See's Permanent Observer at the United Nations, Archbishop Celestino Migliore, who claimed that the declaration could be used to force countries to recognise same-sex marriage:[15]

Be proud!!

With the collusion of some Catholic Bishops and Archbishops, LGBTs are being imprisoned, tortured and killed in countries around the globe. At their direction, political forces are mounted to further oppress women and LGBTs. Marches are organized that have led to anti-gay violence. In this country, Bishops have led efforts to defeat gay marriage rights, ENDA, and contraception coverage, including testifying before Congress. Millions have been spent in anti-gay, anti-woman lobbying, monies that could have been spent on the poor and not the lobbying against legislation from which poor women would have most benefitted. And I'm not even venturing into the subject of the Holy See's rejection of the UN investigations into child abuse.

GLBTs are being beaten, tortured, imprisoned and killed. Women globally are facing increasingly stringent laws against reproduction rights, laws that threaten their very lives or for millions of women, lead to impoverishment. All the pretty posters and recycled speeches about income inequality won't change those facts. While too many progressives are busy being mesmerized by Francis the pop icon, what his minions are doing while scurrying behind the curtain of the Great OZ is another thing entirely. The Bishops are getting away with it precisely because every time these very issues come under scrutiny, you can bet there will be another PR piece and another smiley-faced photo and some recycled pronouncements about income inequality, the same words spoken by Benedict and John Paul II and Popes before them, but presented as if these ideas sprang from the mind of Francis like Athena from the head of Zeus.

I can't imagine there is anyone on DU who isn't working to fight income inequality and poverty. But in the process, I for one will not create a folk hero from a bigot, from institutional bigotry that imprisons, impoverishes, oppresses and kills women (and their children) and GLBTs. That is not the price we must pay in the fight against income inequality. It's simply another front in the battle for all human dignity and equality.

[Walk away]

94. He has certainly made them feel better about themselves without...

changing anything. That should make the billionaire bishops happy too.

[pnwmom]

95. "billionaire bishops" This is a nutty idea. nt

[sabrina 1]

112. You haven't been following what he has been saying TO and ABOUT

supposed 'men of God who value material things over the poor'. There are thousands of Bishops in the Catholic Church, he can't get to all of them directly right away, but has thrown out all the Vatican Bank Bishops to start with.

His words to those wealty 'men of god' were directly intended for American and other first world Bishops and priests whose lives are often devoted less to the poor, and more to the rich and powerful.

He has made a GREAT start in pointing out the evils of 'trickle down' economies, and yes, he has thrown a huge boulder in the paths of Republican Catholics like Paul Ryan, pointing out hypocrisy, telling them basically to 'leave women and gays alone' and to start focusing on issues that matter, like poverty.

He has spoken directly to these Republicans, telling them they need to stop 'obsessing over gays and abortion' and start doing what they should be doing.

He has said more than any other pope, telling them that they have no right to judge other people, to start worrying about THEIR lives and the lives of ordinary people.

Give him time, I think there will be a few changes in America's Bishops as time goes by.

[Squinch]

32. I agree with you, and have a similar background, and will never go back to the church, but still,

I do love some of the things he is saying.

[calimary]

46. Hey, HockeyMom - I couldn't agree more!

Yeah, I'm liking this pope, but he does leave one BIG thing to be desired. His pronouncements on women, that is. Yet again, the largest human resource, pool of talent, and brain-trust on earth is summarily ignored.

But with how backwards the entire Church has been on so many issues - including the mercenary ones that our faith is NOT supposed to be about, according to that most-misunderstood bearded outcast-loving, parable-speaking, moneychanger-denouncing Dude in the New Testament.

But I guess to the parched, even a drop of water comes as a relief. And it does gratify me that at least this pope is focused on the poor rather than protecting Vatican power, influence, status, and financial/real estate holdings. I see that as a big step forward (not clad in fancy red Prada-designed slippers, either). Even so, you are SPOT-ON. There is still a galaxy-sized load of work to do and we're only a few steps along on a VERY long road ahead.

[niyad]

54. absolutely agree!! I actually got kicked out for challenging the church on that

very issue (was leaving anyway, but enjoyed the row!!)

and, talk is cheap. will be more impressed when he opens the vatican coffers and sells off some of the gold and jewels and art.

[rug]

122. He said this in September.

“I am wary of a solution that can be reduced to a kind of ‘female machismo,’ because a woman has a different make-up than a man. But what I hear about the role of women is often inspired by an ideology of machismo. Women are asking deep questions that must be addressed. The church cannot be herself without the woman and her role. The woman is essential for the church. Mary, a woman, is more important than the bishops. I say this because we must not confuse the function with the dignity. We must therefore investigate further the role of women in the church. We have to work harder to develop a profound theology of the woman. Only by making this step will it be possible to better reflect on their function within the church. The feminine genius is needed wherever we make important decisions. The challenge today is this: to think about the specific place of women also in those places where the authority of the church is exercised for various areas of the church.”

Here's the interview.

http://www.americamagazine.org/pope-interview

[efhmc]

156. I find the RCC treatment of anyone without a penis to be abhorrent.

When will women be as important as men in this religion. Not in my life time and probably never.

[woo me with science]

9. Thank you, Pope Francis.

Keep speaking. Keep speaking.

[Enthusiast]

10. He nailed it.

Pope Francis recognizes this as a crisis.

If you don't recognize this as a crisis you need a new scrip.

[Vashta Nerada]

11. Any action yet?

Or just more words?

[pnwmom]

23. He's already taken steps to replace the people in charge of the Vatican Bank

as well as the Cabinet that has been advising the previous pope.

He's taken more action, and in the right direction, than any Pope since Pope John.

[leftyohiolib]

28. nothing will be good enough to some

[theHandpuppet]

55. Stopping the persecution of women and LGBTs would be a good start

Unless you think that doesn't matter.

[skepticscott]

134. He's cleaned up an internal Vatican cesspool

as part of a concerted PR campaign, and has done no more than bring it back to where it should have been all along, if the RCC had even a fraction of the morality they claim comes from gawd.

And what actions have other popes since John taken that Francis stands out in comparison to?

[pnwmom]

136. The other Popes were moving away from Vatican 2. This Pope is restoring it. n/t

[LanternWaste]

72. I imagine we may ask all each other that same question.

I imagine we may ask all each other that same question. I'd further imagine that the majority of the answers would unfortunately be much more creative imagination and much less honesty.

However, we can fully realize that the Pope's relegation of women to secondary roles mirrors that of more than a handful of DUers (not that you or the Pope would *ever* do that...)

[JNelson6563]

12. I agree with every single word of this statement.

Spot on.

[Laelth]

13. k&r for Pope Francis. n/t

-Laelth

[bvar22]

15. Hail the All Powerful Invisible Hand!

[font color=white]....................[/font][font size=4]The Golden Calf on the altar
[font color=white].............[/font]of the Church of the "Free Trade"[/font]



I've been having a lot a trouble with this All Powerful Invisible Hand thing.
I think that maybe somebody just made all that shit up.
We've been sacrificing American Job, Wages, and Benefits to this new GOD for 30 years now,
Democratic Party & Republican Party,
and things are getting WORSE for those of us who have to Work-for-a-Living.

[kwassa]

119. The "invisible hand" is a concept from Adam Smith in 1776 ...

when he wrote "The Wealth of Nations" the first treatise on capitalism. Smith also wrote about market failures, where pure capitalism didn't work, and about the concept of the public good, the role for government in a capitalistic society.

[bvar22]

120. "The Invisible Hand" wasn't a Faith Based Dogma of the Democratic Party Leadership until 1992.

.

[Live and Learn]

145. +1 nt

[AtheistCrusader]

16. Meanwhile...

[Beacool]

18. These items are very old and are works of art.

The Vatican is mostly a museum. Do you expect the Smithsonian to sell its content?

[AtheistCrusader]

22. And have value.

"Money must serve, not rule!"

"The Pope loves everyone, rich and poor alike, but he is obliged in the name of Christ to remind all that the rich must help, respect and promote the poor."

His own words. Lofty words, from a man running an organization who's corporate headquarters is recognized as a sovereign nation, and filled with riches so great, no independent assessment entity is willing to guess what its true value is.

[pnwmom]

24. Can you do any better than hyperbole?

[AtheistCrusader]

25. If the golden cup fits.

[leftyohiolib]

33. well it doesnt

they could sell it all, give it all away then they will nothing with which to help anyone but dont let that stop your hatred

[AtheistCrusader]

49. What about half?

Do you even know what 'half' IS in monetary value?

[zeemike]

100. Great idea.

The Smithsonian should sell half of it's treasures...and give it to the poor.

[Arugula Latte]

128. The Smithsonian doesn't lecture people about possessions and poverty

while simultaneously sitting on piles of gold.

[zeemike]

132. No it is not there business to do that.

But that is the business of the church...of every church.
And the right wing fundamentalist lecture people on the joys of capitalism and now we have a pope that is against that...but he is criticized for it?
I find it hard to grasp the concept of doing that, when he is aiding progressive ideals.

[Beacool]

35. The Catholic Church is the largest NGO in the world.

There's plenty of money that is dedicated to their various charities around the world.

This is not Benedict. Within what he's able to do due to his position, he lives as much of a humble life as he can. This is not a pose, he lived as modestly as he could as Archbishop of Buenos Aires.

[AtheistCrusader]

47. The catholic church IS a sovereign country itself.

How much is collected, tax free, versus expenditures in the US?

[Aerows]

50. The very people that say you should do what you can

within the context of your positions *cough cough Obama cough cough* suddenly become upset when someone else that is a world leader and does so, but is against enslavement by corporations and money.

Fascinating context if you ask me.

[Beacool]

140. You said it.

I don't even attend a Catholic church, but any positive thing this Pope attempts to do gets bashed mercilessly by some and it's tiresome.

[Arugula Latte]

162. Funny, what I find tiresome is the Church's centuries of oppression.

[Beacool]

164. And of course this Pope is at fault.

Although he's been in office for less than a year.

[Arugula Latte]

167. He has echoed anti-gay, anti-women dogma of the Church.

I would think that someone who is in favor of women's rights wouldn't support and defend this misogynist institution. But yet, doublethink abounds.

I know for a fact you have frequently spoken out in favor of women's rights and have criticized Obama when he has dropped the ball on pushing for reproductive rights, etc. Yet you give this malevolent Church that regards women as second-class citizens and gives them no power in the Church itself a pass. I don't get that cognitive dissonance.

[olegramps]

37. Might as well not stop with the Smithsonian, how about all the museums?

Then the wealthy can snatch them up at bargain prices and charge admission to see them. But on second thought, they probably wouldn't want the unwashed contaminating their mansions or urchins stepping on their manicured lawns.

[rhett o rick]

98. I am having a hard time with your rationalization. First I dont believe Jesus would approve

of the use of gaudy riches to worship God. Especially since it was obtained from the hard work of slaves. The pieces are art and should be in a museum not supported by the Catholic poor of the world. Preaching that we should help the poor seems a bit hypocritical when preached by one of the wealthiest institutions in the world.

[Beacool]

99. The Vatican IS a museum.

I have no problem with them owning works of art that have been in their possession foe centuries.

[rhett o rick]

102. Even when they acquired that wealth by extorting it from the poor? Ill gotten wealth doesnt get

morally ok just because it's old. By keeping and flaunting that gaudy wealth they are mocking the poor.

Do you think their wealth should be allowed to increase every year? Assuming wealth is, at least in part, zero-sum, doesnt an increase in their wealth signify a decrease in the wealth of the world, especially the poor?

[zeemike]

106. All great wealth was gotten by extorting the poor.

Case in point...the crown jewls...obtained by the enslavement of two continents...

[frwrfpos]

137. the Vatican is a criminal enterprise

I have a big problem with a criminal organization that protects pedofiles

Its not a big deal to you as you also seem to accept right wing repuke Hillary and her RW repuke policies

TPP, Honduras, Free traitor shit

[Beacool]

142. This Pope is not protecting pedophiles.

He's already set up a commission to investigate cases against priests accused of abusing children.

As for your ad hominem attack on Hillary, calling her RW is just ridiculous.

[No Vested Interest]

138. Beacool, you must realize that we have on DU a few who dwell on the same

themes again and again.
I'm weary of explaining " Vatican = Museum" to those who will not listen.
It's their shtick.
We know who they are and that they show up regularly.
Just move on and have a good day (or night, as the case may be).
It's not worth bothering one's head about.

[Beacool]

139. They have blinders on.

This Pope could sprout wings and a halo, and they still would bash him for whatever perceived offenses the Catholic Church has committed in the last 2,000 years. The man just became Pope 11 months ago today.

[AtheistCrusader]

147. Are you fucking serious.

To dismiss the active lobbying and legislative interference of a tax free religious org in our national politics?

This isn't just about 'the pope', it's about the RCC itself, en total. About their institutionalized dogma about women, marriage, you name it. They spend MILLIONS on our elections, trying to imbue our LAWS with their religious morality. The hoarding of wealth, tax free, worldwide is actually a small side issue.

If that church would take interference in our LAWS on social issues off the table, you wouldn't hear a peep out of me anymore on them.


This isn't about your dismissive bullshit about wings and a halo.
The pope is in a position to change the church's opposition to same sex marriage. Opposition to physician assisted suicide. Opposition to abortion, to family planning, etc.

I'm not asking him to tell catholics to go ahead and do all these things themselves, but he is certainly in a position to instruct the various churches under him to stop donating, stop interfering in our politics.

You want to belong to an org with a compulsion against abortion? Fine. All yours. Go for it. But don't lobby and campaign and spend on changing laws for EVERYONE, catholic or not.

[JDPriestly]

44. The Catholic Church is the protector of one of a good part of our immense cultural heritage.

That is a responsibility owed to mankind, not an indication of greed.

Construction of the present basilica, replacing the Old St. Peter's Basilica of the 4th century, began on 18 April 1506 and was completed on 18 November 1626.[4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Peter%27s_Basilica

Shortly after the construction of St. Peter's began, Martin Luther posted his 95 Theses and the Protestant movement caught fire.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ninety-Five_Theses

One of the complaints of the protestants was the sale of indulgences. That is one of the ways that the Catholic Church amassed the fortunes necessary to construct its palatial cathedrals.

The Protestant Reformation was the schism within Western Christianity initiated by Martin Luther, John Calvin, and other early Protestants. Although there had been significant attempts at reform before Luther (notably those of John Wycliffe and Jan Huss), the date most usually given for the start of the Protestant Reformation is 1517, when Luther published The Ninety-Five Theses, and for its conclusion in 1648 with the Peace of Westphalia that ended the European wars of religion.[1] Luther started by criticising the relatively recent practice of selling indulgences, but the debate widened until it touched on many of the doctrines and devotional practices of the Catholic Church.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_Reformation

What was an indulgence?

In Catholic theology, an indulgence technically is a remission of the temporal[1] punishment inflicted by the Church for a previously forgiven sin.[2][3][4] An indulgence thus does not forgive the guilt of sin nor releases from the eternal punishment which Church doctrine associates to unforgiven mortal sins. It is not a permit to commit sin, a pardon of future sin, nor a guarantee of salvation for oneself or for another.[2][5] Ordinarily, forgiveness of mortal sins is obtained through Confession (i.e., penance or reconciliation).

. . . .

Indulgences became increasingly popular in the Middle Ages as a reward for displaying piety and doing good deeds, though, doctrinally speaking, the Church stated that the indulgence was only valid for temporal punishment for sins already forgiven in the Sacrament of Confession. The faithful asked that indulgences be given for saying their favourite prayers, doing acts of devotion, attending places of worship, and going on pilgrimage; confraternities wanted indulgences for putting on performances and processions; associations demanded that their meetings be rewarded with indulgences. Good deeds included charitable donations of money for a good cause, and money thus raised was used for many righteous causes, both religious and civil; building projects funded by indulgences include churches, hospitals, leper colonies, schools, roads, and bridges.[44]

However, the later Middle Ages saw the growth of considerable abuses. Greedy commissaries sought to extract the maximum amount of money for each indulgence.[46] Professional "pardoners"[6] (quaestores in Latin) - who were sent to collect alms for a specific project - practiced the unrestricted sale of indulgences. Many of these quaestores exceeded official Church doctrine, whether in avarice or ignorant zeal, and promised rewards like salvation from eternal damnation in return for money.[44] With the permission of the Church, indulgences also became a way for Catholic rulers to fund expensive projects, such as Crusades and cathedrals, by keeping a significant portion of the money raised from indulgences in their lands.[44] There was a tendency to forge documents declaring that indulgences had been granted.[44] Indulgences grew to extraordinary magnitude, in terms of longevity and breadth of forgiveness.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indulgence

And so sin and the money spent for absolution from sin helped build the magnificent cathedrals.

[AtheistCrusader]

53. I don't know what that means.

[JDPriestly]

64. The Catholic Church owns many exquisite cathedrals of great historic value.

It is a part of the Church's obligations to mankind to preserve those cathedrals for future generations. Cambodia is also responsible for protecting Angkor Wat? These great monuments have importance far beyond the religions that built them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angkor_Wat

Angkor Wat (Khmer: អង្គរវត្ត was first a Hindu, then subsequently a Buddhist, temple complex in Cambodia and the largest religious monument in the world. The temple was built by the Khmer King Suryavarman II in the early 12th century in Yasodharapura (Khmer: យសោធរបុរៈ, present-day Angkor), the capital of the Khmer Empire, as his state temple and eventual mausoleum. Breaking from the Shaivism tradition of previous kings, Angkor Wat was instead dedicated to Vishnu. As the best-preserved temple at the site, it is the only one to have remained a significant religious center since its foundation. The temple is at the top of the high classical style of Khmer architecture. It has become a symbol of Cambodia,[1] appearing on its national flag, and it is the counhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angkor_Wattry's prime attraction for visitors.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angkor_Wat

St. Peter's is a great monument and tribute to human creativity and labor.

[AtheistCrusader]

68. Is Bill Gates' mansion a tribute to human creativity and labor?

Hey, it's earth sheltered. Music follows you around. Heated driveways, pool, etc. Pretty awesome.

Does he have an obligation to preserve it for future generations?

[kwassa]

118. Not until the rest of the world recognizes it as such.

Bill Gates doesn't represent the cultural thinking of 2000 years in European, and world culture. When he does, we can rationally discuss this idea.

[Egalitarian Thug]

91. It means that you're not supposed to notice who a major part of the parasite class is.

Silly atheist.

[dorkzilla]

58. +1,000,000,000!!!

Thank you for saying that. It also created, or helped to cause the creation, of some of the most precious works of art known to modern mankind. I'm also an atheist, but I appreciate the stewardship given these things by the Vatican.

Love,
An Antiquities and Art Nerd

[Gore1FL]

165. I would argue that the creativity of the artists would exist

with or without the fairy tales that inspired specific works.

[dorkzilla]

166. Of course the creativity of artist would exists without the fairy tales

But the fact of the matter is it was created for and paid by the Church. Doesn't make it any less precious. And it certainly doesn't diminish the beauty in my eyes.

[malaise]

51. Hilarious indeed n/t

[lovuian]

17. He really has a good heart and wants change

Good for him

[Arugula Latte]

129. Oh, yeah. But not for women and gays.

They'll always be second-class citizens to the Church.

[dogknob]

19. He just understands that capitalism is a secular threat to dominionism, but I made this anyway (pic)

[freshwest]

36. Good pic. They should be called out:

[JDPriestly]

42. Amen to you too, Freshwest. Amen to the Pope and amen to Freshwest.

[Kurovski]

20. That one...he just don't give up.

K&R

[HereSince1628]

31. When his archdioceses start selling property to fairly compensate the sex abused

it will look like he is being effective.


As it is...it looks like Aurora health care telling people BC/BS is profiteering.

[JDPriestly]

40. Amen. Amen. Amen. So be it.

Change you really can believe in.

This Pope just might change the world a tiny tad.

No. I am not Catholic. I just agree with this statement by the Pope. This is the true teaching of Jesus.

[Armstead]

41. He's awful. He's just a far left purist ideologue. Begone with him!

[Aerows]

48. Awful purist

sticking to the message of Jesus. He doesn't even carry a gun, or have blue eyes.

[Aerows]

45. I'm gay and female

and I still love Pope Francis, because he talks about the things that affect ALL of us. All of the things that keep everyone down, which is aristocratic mentality.

[AtheistCrusader]

56. Yes he does.

But he ALSO talks about things like this:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/13/pope-francis-abortion_n_4587846.html


he's a winner, on the surface, on the financial aspect of humanity, but less so on other 'things that keep everyone down'.

[Aerows]

57. Nope

He talks about things that are uncomfortable for the oligarchs. He also blows off topics of homosexuality and abortion that serve to divide people on social grounds.

No, he's all about finance, and that scares the shit out of a lot of politicians. Oh no, people might realize politicians and political parties use a good show to divide people on wedge issues while fleecing the populace left and right.

[AtheistCrusader]

61. He doesn't blow that topic off, and his organization spends ENORMOUS sums of money lobbying

AGAINST abortion.

You know, money that could help the poor.

[theHandpuppet]

63. Not only lobbying against contraception and abortion...

... but equality for LGBTs.

And he doesn't blow off those topics -- he's addressed them numerous times, from abortion to gay adoption.

[Aerows]

65. Bullshit

and you know it. He has spent more time lecturing about the evils of a money controlled, corporate controlled society than any political leader I can think of, and make no mistake, he IS a political leader. Religious, yes, but also political.

Frankly, I respect him for his stance on taking on the oligarchs that have globally countermanded the will of the governed for too long. The Church did that for a very long time. Nice to see a Pope that sees it when it happens again from the aristocracy/oligarchy.

[AtheistCrusader]

71. You're going to stack his comments on wealth up against Elizabeth Warren? Bernie Sanders? Al Franken

?

Granted those are US-centric political leaders.

You seem to be over-estimating the face time Francis is putting into this one issue, to the exclusion of all else.

[Aerows]

75. I'm sorry

did my Elizabeth Warren tag lead you to believe I saw any correlation between her and the Pope?

It did?

Well, it's a good thing I can appreciate both the Pope and Senator Warren while not suddenly being under the delusion that they are the same human beings with the same message.

I'm sure Bernie Sanders has a thing or two to say, as well, and I love him, but his constituency isn't 1.2 Billion.

[AtheistCrusader]

82. We were talking about fiscal issues.

So, they are relevant. You did specify "any political leader".

And 1.2 billion adherents is a lot of people to be telling that same-sex marriage is from the 'father of lies', or that women should have no control over their reproductive freedom, or condoms are worse than aids, or etc.

[Enthusiast]

146. +1 a whole bunch!

Well said. Appreciated.

[Bluenorthwest]

111. Spend more time? Then why is this OP a recycled quote from November of last year?

The promotional threads are designed to create the impression that he just said this, but this is just another quote from his big statement in November.
The Francis fans never post about things like his support for the Religious Right marching to protest Roe V Wade. Why do you think that is?

[Bluenorthwest]

103. That is simply a false statement, that he 'blows off' those issues.

Vatican City, Jan 22, 2014 / 09:04 am (CNA/EWTN News).- Pope Francis sent a tweet offering support for the annual March for Life in Washington, D.C., praying that all human life would be valued.

“I join the March for Life in Washington with my prayers. May God help us respect all life, especially the most vulnerable,” he told his 3.5 million English-speaking Twitter followers Jan. 22.

The pro-life march typically draws hundreds of thousands of attendees of all religious backgrounds, though Catholic participants are numerous. This year's event marks the 41st anniversary of the 1973 Roe v. Wade Supreme Court decision, which mandated legal abortion nationwide.

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/pope-francis-tweet-supports-prays-for-us-pro-life-march/

Dec 30, 2013
A bishop in Malta told local media that Pope Francis was “shocked” about a proposal to allow gay couples to adopt children there.

Auxiliary Bishop Charles Scicluna, an opponent of the proposal, told the Sunday Times of Malta that he discussed his concerns with the Pope on Dec. 12, and Scicluna said the Pontiff “encouraged me to speak out.”

http://world.time.com/2013/12/30/report-pope-francis-shocked-by-same-sex-adoption-proposal/

Jan 13, 2014
ROME — Pope Francis on Monday called abortion "horrific" and said it was part of a new "throwaway culture" he said wasted human life as easily as it wasted food — his strongest words yet on a practice that is a divisive political issue in the United States.

Until now, Francis has appeared to have stayed away from strong statements on the church's stands on moral behavior of individuals, preferring to focus on more positive messages about the teachings of Jesus Christ and the need to see to the poor.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/01/13/pope-francis-abortion/4459865/


Why not just be honest?

[theHandpuppet]

59. This article summed it up for me

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/116056/progressives-who-love-pope-francis-are-abandoning-women-and-gay-rights

Stop Fawning Over Pope Francis at the Expense of Women and Gay Rights

(excerpt)
Some of the material contained in Pope Francis’s first teaching document is rightly music to the left’s ears. When he asks his flock rhetorical questions such as "How can it be that it is not a news item when an elderly homeless person dies of exposure, but it is news when the stock market loses two points?", he is undoubtedly onto something. But as is so often the case, the search for a hero has resulted in people switching off their critical faculties and overlooking inconvenient truths which don’t align with their worldview. How else could the Pope come out of 2013 a "progressive" icon while at the same time holding views on women and abortion that make Jeremy Clarkson look like a radical socialist? ...

...Pope Benedict was a PR disaster for the church. Yet under Francis little of substance has actually changed. The Catholic Church continues to vehemently discriminate against gay people and women, it’s simply sugar-coated its message with fashionable sound bites about inequality. And depressingly this has worked. Many otherwise erstwhile progressives have fallen into line faster than Danny Alexander at a cabinet meeting.

We should, however, reject the notion that someone who can rescind the Church’s stance on gay sex, and chooses not to do so, is a figure worthy of admiration. Nor, if he won’t countenance women priests, is there a reason to suppose the Pope has anything of note to say about poverty. Why waste precious time worrying about anything such a person thinks?

Aside from the fact that we still hold religious figures to a lower standard than secular ones, the fawning over Pope Francis demonstrates something profoundly depressing: in the struggle for a better world, women’s and LGBT rights are still not taken seriously.

[Aerows]

62. Anyone that steps up to the plate

and points out that the oligarchs of the world are out of control is fine by me. He blows off the attempts to drag in social issues, because he has a mission that scares the crap out of corporatists - that both sides are betraying us.

[theHandpuppet]

69. And Benedict did the same thing, BTW

It doesn't excuse Francis' bigotry. I'm not going to make a folk hero out of a bigot, the head bigot of an institution whose lobbying threatens the very lives of millions of women and LGBTs. All the pretty photo posters and platitudes in the world won't make up for what's going behind the scenes; i.e. the money and political influence being poured into efforts to oppress women and GLBTs, including right here at home.

[Aerows]

70. What?

Pope Prada wearing gold? You don't have any idea what you are talking about.





Totally the same on materialism.

[AtheistCrusader]

74. Yes, that pope.

He wore this;


But he said this:

http://www.faithinpubliclife.org/blog/why_pope_benedict_disagrees_wi/

[Aerows]

77. That's Benedict

I care not for what he said, it is what he did.

Are you seriously saying the two men are the same?

[AtheistCrusader]

83. They said the same things about economic issues. So did pope Paul II.

I'm surprised you didn't know that.

[theHandpuppet]

76. Or maybe you ought to do some research

Like this:
https://www.commondreams.org/headline/2013/01/01-4
Or this:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/16/pope-benedict-wealth-distribution_n_1154798.html
Or this:
http://www.faithinpubliclife.org/blog/why_pope_benedict_disagrees_wi/
Or this:
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/pope-benedict-cautions-against-increasing-social-inequality/
Or this:
http://theweek.com/article/index/255848/9-ridiculous-claims-in-rolling-stonersquos-cover-story-on-pope-francis
4. "Francis threw down a real marker in November, with the release of his first apostolic exhortation, or official written teaching. Apostolic exhortations under John Paul II and Benedict tended toward the dogmatic (JPII's Familiaris Consortio restated orthodox Church teaching on birth control and the traditional family) or the wonky (Benedict's Sacramentum Caritatis spent 32,000 words on the Eucharist). In this context, the blistering attacks on income inequality in Francis' Evangelii Gaudium ("The Joy of the Gospel&quot resonate like a bomb."

Where to begin? How about with the observation that between them John Paul II and Benedict wrote four encyclicals on economics — each one of them carrying greater teaching authority than an apostolic exhortation and typically going on longer than 32,000 words. Every one of these documents contains passages that criticize unregulated capitalism in precisely the ways that Francis has. That's because the church's teaching about economics has been remarkably consistent from the time of Pope Leo XIII's Rerum Novarum (1891) down to today.

That teaching is, roughly, that pure forms of free-market capitalism and communistic socialism are each gravely defective in moral terms. In their place, the church advocates a mixed system of private property, locally controlled private and public charity, worker unionization, and government regulation and welfare programs. Francis' words don't resonate like a bomb. They resonate like an echo.

[Aerows]

80. I think I've done enough research to realize

when a religious and political leader of 1.2 billion followers makes those that are mouthpieces for corporations crap their pants.

[theHandpuppet]

89. That's not a legitimate reply

When I stated that Benedict had addressed these same issues of economic inequality, you responded by saying that I didn't know what the hell I was talking about.

If Francis holds such a moral high ground that he could influence billions around the world, I'd suggest stopping the persecution of women and GLBTs. But maybe Francis can't walk and chew gum at the same time. As for me, I'm not willing to throw the rights of billions of women and GLBTs under the bus for a sophisticated PR campaign of recycled platitudes and pretty photos.

[Vashta Nerada]

124. Pope Benedict wrote a book speaking out against capitalism:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Crisis-Global-Capitalism-Encyclical-ebook/dp/B0068M97EE

[eridani]

133. Why that doesn't really matter

In case you hadn't noticed, in developed countries the culture wars are over and our side won. Our opposition is literally dying off, and rants from the Pope or anyone else isn't going to change that. Meanwhile, income inequality continues to grow, and few of our elected representatives want to do anything about it.

[840high]

66. That's my Pope.!

[DesertDiamond]

67. I'm a Buddhist now and will never be Catholic again, but I LOOOOOOOOOOVE this guy!!

[Vinnie From Indy]

73. I am starting to like this guy!

eom

[xchrom]

78. du rec.

[TrollBuster9090]

81. BANG on! And the new FALSE GOD is the 'invisible hand of the marketplace,' who these people always

invoke as the deity that will take care of us, if only we sacrifice on the ALTAR. The sacrifices we must make are TAX CUTS and DEREGULATION for the 'job creators.'

So, if you DO that, and the economy still crashes as it did in 2008, it doesn't disprove their thesis. It merely proves that we didn't CUT TAXES and DEREGULATE BUSINESS ENOUGH!

*Eyeroll* You just can't win with these people.

[MisterP]

84. that's why Greenspan said we shouldn't regulate derivatives: because they were beyond human

comprehension

he replaced God with the market

[DallasNE]

86. Class Warfare

Will the Republicans dare to charge the Pope with inciting class warfare? By framing this as a moral issue the Pope has somewhat tied the hands of Republicans that want to charge the Democrats with using class warfare when they go after income inequality. This also sets up quicksand for Republicans that oppose raising the minimum wage. And ending long term unemployment benefits. And on and on and on. The party of "no" will be defending a lot of turf this year and on unfavorable grounds at that. While the 6th year into a President's tenure is usually tough (witness 2006) things are shaping up much differently this time around. I could see Democrats picking up about 20 House seats while having a net loss of only 2-3 Senate seats.

[arthritisR_US]

87. Can't disagree with him there at all. nt

[Egalitarian Thug]

88. ...and he has no idea how that could have happened....

So, when does this "man-of-god" start divesting The Church of it's billions and putting it where it helps in his sincere effort to help the downtrodden?

[jsr]

92. I hope he cooks his own meals for a while and keeps an eye on the brake lines of his junker

Last edited Thu Feb 13, 2014, 06:43 PM - Edit history (1)

He's really pissing off the 1%.

[Politicub]

96. So glad he is sticking his thumb in the eye of the 1%

And he has a global platform. Not many do.

Oh, need the obligatory statement when talking about the pope before someone replies with a "but what about...": agree with this message but catholic doctrine needs to change... yadda yadda yadda

[Baitball Blogger]

97. Is it too late to establish residency in the U.S. for him to run for president?

[theHandpuppet]

101. Even in jest, that's not funny

Unless you would like the U.S. to be run by a misogynic, homophobic theocracy.

[Baitball Blogger]

104. We'll Americanize him.

[theHandpuppet]

105. Sorry. Still not funny.

Not when Catholic bishops right here are in the U.S. are in the forefront of lobbying against reproductive choice and LGBTs rights. I could cite many cases of very-real, anti-woman, anti-gay lobbying but here's just one example:

http://rhrealitycheck.org/article/2013/10/06/at-any-cost-how-catholic-bishops-pushed-for-a-shutdown-and-even-a-default-over-birth-control/

No theocracy for me, thanks. Gays and women are fighting for their very lives over these issues and I find nothing even remotely funny about it.

[Baitball Blogger]

109. It would not surprise me if this Pope were to make a positive stand on those issues as well.

I don't support his backward position on those issues, but he is a well-read individual and well-read individuals tend to change their opinions when they acquire new information. Where he lives he may not be exposed to the change in attitudes that we are finally seeing over here. I see major, positive changes coming our way and I have confidence that this Pope will recognize them when it happens.

If not, I will stand by you in denouncing him.

[Bluenorthwest]

115. He's an old man with a long career you could learn about. In Argentina he was so stridently

anti gay that the President called his language 'Medieval and suggestive of the Inquisition'. Horrible, awful things he said. He called opposing equal rights for gay people 'God's war' and urged his people to 'fight this war'.
Good stuff. Holy war. Against your neighbors. It is odd that people take such hate speech lightly and feel comfortable endorsing the speaker in any way.

[Baitball Blogger]

116. That definitely sounds like opinions from someone who is still living in a medieval era.

Those opinions are just plain wrong, and I hope that someone will open his eyes to that fact, as he has opened his mind on other matters that previous Popes have failed to address.

[Bluenorthwest]

107. It's comments like this that make it neccessary to respond with facts

He's anti gay, he's anti choice, he is opposed to all forms of birth control and to the use of condoms to prevent the spread of AIDS.
He'd have to run as a Republican.

[Baitball Blogger]

110. I, of course, do not support him on those issues.

But he is leaps and bounds ahead of his predecessors. And I don't think he's finished, yet. I do believe that our advances in the U.S. and in the world will influence him in a positive way. Give him time.

[Bluenorthwest]

113. You give him 'time' I'll give him my opinion that he's a hypocrite in service to hate and

ignorance. I owe nothing to the Religious Right.

[Baitball Blogger]

114. You are entitled to that opinion. It is a valid one.

I certainly don't enjoy being on the side that defends a religion which is responsible for more human misery than I care to think about, but as a recovering Catholic I also know that he is in the position to change attitudes that can help Democratic causes.

[Bluenorthwest]

117. Oh, gee thanks for your permission!

The great majority of his views are straight out of the Republican Platform, gays are evil, abortion is murder, it goes on and on and on. Oh, but while on his private jet he said 'the poor'.
The OP quote is from November. He has said a shit ton right wing stuff since then. But thanks for letting us know where you stand.
I personally owe nothing to the Religious Right.

[Vashta Nerada]

126. See post #76.

[Vashta Nerada]

125. Anti-gay and anti-abortion leader?

You want to turn this country into Russia?

[Texano78704]

108. The cult of money

I think that it's interesting how so many who consider themselves Christians have no problem practicing Capitalism as if they left their morals on the doorstep outside.

[Octafish]

127. No human purpose.

"Money trumps peace." -- George Walker Bush

[Auntie Bush]

130. I'm not even religious and I love this Pope.

First one I've ever admired.

[City Lights]

131. Well said, Pope Francis!

[liberal_at_heart]

141. Glad to see somebody talking about income inequality. Our own damn politicians don't seem

to give a shit.

[blkmusclmachine]

143. ... says the Vatican!!!

[awoke_in_2003]

144. What will saint Francis do...

about pedophile priests? Probably nothing.

[Arkana]

148. Man, this pope has got a REAL hate-on for the obscenely wealthy.

[ladjf]

153. Yes, and it might turn out to be helpful to the human race. nt

[Arkana]

154. I never said it was a bad thing.

The obscenely and sociopathically wealthy could USE a little hate. We've been bowing and scraping at their altar for 100 years.

[ladjf]

155. I never thought you meant that it was a "bad thing". We agree.

His aggressive attacks on the inequality couldn't come at a better time.

[Heather MC]

151. Time to have the levite soldiers kill 3000 friends and family with their swords again

Exodus 32

I know he is the pope and all. but considering the massacure that Moses ordered after seeing the newly freed slaves dancing next to a golden calf. This Quote of the popes is a bit unerving.

[ladjf]

152. Francis, keep on saying good things. I'm not a friend

to Catholicism, but you seem to be on a different page with your predecessors.

[SidDithers]

157. 'And please make sure to visit the St. Peter's Basilica Gift Shop at the conclusion of your tour'...

The Catholic Church lecturing others on greed is pretty fucking hilarious.

Sid

[malthaussen]

158. That Golden Calf has been sitting on Wall Street for years...

... only now he's all grown up.

-- Mal

[No Vested Interest]

160. I am by nature a peaceful, non-confrontational person.

That's why Full Ignore can be so satisfying at times.