Posse Comitatus? Never heard of it.

[Savannahmann]

Some of you may have heard of this arcane law in which Federal Military Personnel are prohibited from enforcing state law. Posse Comitatus is one of those things that people wary of Federal Government Power mention from time to time. I suppose I'll be blasted as a Libertarian because I even know about it. Ah the dangers of an informed public.

In short, the law prohibits the military from enforcing the law, as the military is supposed to defend the country, not take over for law enforcement.

Of course there are enough exceptions to fill a bus, but the principal of the bloody thing is we didn't want the military to act like Police.

Enter the US Navy and the LInX system. That stands for Law Enforcement Information Exchange system. Now, what does the US Navy have to do with a national database that deals with city, county, state, and federal law enforcement? Well it seems that the NCIS, or Naval Criminal Investigation Service is the ones running the LInX database.

OK, the military is running a database sort of like the NCIS system. So what's the big deal right? Well unlike NCIS, it is not run by the FBI, which is a law enforcement agency with wide ranging jurisdiction. And unlike the NCIS it doesn't cover arrests, warrants, and convictions. It includes anything anyone wants to put in there.

Things like, pawn shop records, interviews by police, incidents, and many other types of records. Now, that seems a little strange to me. I mean, who cares if you go and pawn a watch you inherited from your Uncle Steven when he died last year. Well, apparently the US Government does. Enough that they're spending tens of millions of dollars to run this system.

So what does this matter? Some of us are actually foolish enough to trust the police. It has been clearly shown that Metadata is contrary to popular disinformation able to be used to identify people. Contrary to the sworn statements by many users, it is possible to record every phone call in an entire nation, five of them to be honest about the released information, who knows how many now. So as of the release of the briefing document above, re linked here, they have over 400 million records, who knows how many now that the system is spreading. That is enough for at least one for every man, woman, and child in the nation. By now, they've added in the license plate readers that record every license plate that is read, creating a database where your every movement can be tracked.

Now, I know that the first response is going to be tin foil jokes. But the database does exist. The information I told you about is in it according to the information released. This isn't paranoid fantasy, this is a real program, really operated by the US Navy. We blast IBM for giving the Nazi's punch card systems. Shouldn't we blast those companies that are working to give any government systems that would have the Nazi's slobbering in envy?

As they tie more information into those systems, from traffic cameras to surveillance cameras using facial recognition, your privacy is being eroded at an alarming rate. The joke in the Soviet Union was that people had the right to private thoughts in their heads. I wonder how long before we start telling the same joke here? Because it looks like that is the last bastion of privacy we have left.

Who is watching the watchers?

[TBF]

1. I know about it

Because the Posse was active in the Midwest when I was growing up. We had quite a mix in our rural area with union members,, farmers, small business owners, and absolutely folks who belonged to the Posse Comitatus.

[2banon]

4. that's very interesting and intriguing.

wonder if hollywood would care to dramatize this bit of largely unknown history?

[TBF]

12. They actually did - Gordon Kahl is the one

people may have heard of -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordon_Kahl

I grew up in Wisconsin. Currently SPLC isn't showing the Posse active, but I can tell you they were active in the middle of the state (north of Madison in small towns) in the early 80s. People who belonged to them also seemed to have white supremacist beliefs. During one of our dress up weeks (you know the "50's day" etc type of thing) we had one kid coming in wearing a KKK hood. I don't remember what the theme was that day but our principle was not amused and sent him home.

You can look up states on this SPLC map: http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/hate-map#s=WI

[pansypoo53219]

16. yeah, WI, hmm, dang, we always drove thru the little hotbed town of that, on the way up north.

tigerton? then i think i hit the old posse in my 1891 encyclopedia britannica. i think i was reading feudalism.

[FarCenter]

21. There are several "Posse Comitatus"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_comitatus_(disambiguation)

[JJChambers]

2. I don't care if you pawned a watch you inherited

I DO care if you pawned a watch that I inherited. I can definitely see pawn records as a useful tool in criminal investigations.

[2banon]

5. Of course, but it s/b jurisdiction of police not intelligence doncha think?

[Savannahmann]

7. Let's say I agree.

Let's say that such records are liable to be useful in solving crimes. For the sake of argument, let's say you and I both live in or around Atlanta Georgia. I can see the Pawn Shops reporting to the local police any items they get that might match stolen property.

Now, remember, for the sake of this argument, we both live in or around Atlanta Georgia. What good does that information do for police in Washington State? Or North Carolina?

I've seen Rolex watches at pawn shops for a couple hundred, which means that they're paying about ten cents on the dollar.

So at some point the argument starts to fall down you see. Local pawn shops working with local police is almost a given. But I don't see the need for a national database to keep track of all such transactions.

[okaawhatever]

10. Which is why people would cross a state line to pawn a stolen watch before computerization made it

easier to keep a database of stolen items. The op is leading us to believe that the database is concerned with who buys what. It is usually a database of stolen items, especially those with serial numbers and pawn shops are required to verify an item isn't on the stolen list.

[Savannahmann]

13. But....

The database is available to Police only. Hence the name Law Enforcement Information Exchange. Apparently you aren't troubled by a database that takes in huge amounts of data, categorizes it under the individual, and then makes a potentially lengthy file on your activities. I for one am concerned. Now, what is being reported to the database is pawn shop records. Which means when you pawn something, a record is created in a federal database. One can only assume that when you purchase something that a similar entry is made.

I ask again, why does the Federal Government need to know that information? Why does the Federal Government need to know that I was interviewed by the police and gave them my name and address because I witnessed an accident?

Indiana police are tracking cell phones, which is in and of itself troubling. But coupled with this database, you could easily have a national registry of your every movement. If not now, then easily within a few months, or a couple years at the most.

Why does the Government need that information? We all know that police regularly abuse the access they have to the NCIC system. Imagine what kind of trouble they can cause with this information at their fingertips. Just last week a police officer was charged with using a database to stalk his ex-girlfriend. http://www.philly.com/philly/news/breaking/Cops_State_trooper_used_police_database_to_stalk_ex-girlfriend.html

The sad truth is the more power the authorities have, the more abuses that will result. The more information they have, the more they will abuse that information. It isn't just the odd officer who abuses existing databases. Here is a police chief who was using it to assist a drug dealer. http://www.kxxv.com/story/25026615/ex-normangee-police-chief-sentenced-to-2-years-probation

There are no severe punishments for abuse of the system. There is no mechanism for limiting access to "official use only" other than a warning that it is supposed to be for LEO's only. So unless you happen to be so outrageous that you do something amazingly stupid like stalk a lover, or help a drug dealer, you're going to get away with abusing the system and no one will care.

Tell you what. Make it punishable by life in prison without the possibility of parole for any abuses. Then make it punishable for the DA to refuse to bring charges for the abuses, and we'll talk about the database. Until then, this is not a bad idea. It is a catastrophically bad idea.

[woo me with science]

8. Way to deliberately miss the point. nt

[2banon]

3. Big Kick and Rec!

Thank you for this information, Savannahmann.


I was aware of the Office of Naval Intelligence existence back in the 60's. At the time, I naively assumed their purview and jurisdiction was strictly regarding the activities of military personnel and their dependents.


The intelligence apparatus in this country dwarfs the imaginings of the Stasi.

Wonder what du members think of this. do they even freaking care?

[woo me with science]

11. "The intelligence apparatus in this country dwarfs the imaginings of the Stasi."

While the propaganda machine mocks those who sound the alarm for committing "Godwinisms," it says a lot that those who actually lived through tyranny are watching with great concern.

Former Stasi Reaction to NSA “You know, for us, this would have been a dream come true”
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023459517

Germans Hail Snowden as NSA Evokes Stasi Seizing Lives of Others
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023223124

Germans illuminate message on US embassy
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023222678

[truebrit71]

15. Shhhh...someone said something rude about the President...

....let's make him apologize!!!

[woo me with science]

17. Surreal. And sick.

Le Taz Hot had the best description of it that I've seen yet:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4702149

'Cause he said bad things about Dear Leader. Honest to goddess that's all it comes down to. Anyone who says anything even slightly negative about PO, the bat signal goes out, the swarm wakes up and it's "Flight of the Valkyries" complete with one-dimensional arguments and blue links to nowhere.

The swarming and swooping of the Valkyries. Must.Destroy.The.Threat.

Obama taps "cognitive infiltrator" Cass Sunstein for Committee to create "trust" in NSA:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023512796

Salon: Obama confidant’s spine-chilling proposal: Cass Sunstein wants the government to "cognitively infiltrate" anti-government groups
http://www.salon.com/2010/01/15/sunstein_2/

The US government's online campaigns of disinformation, manipulation, and smear.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024560097

Snowden: ‘Training Guide’ for GCHQ, NSA Agents Infiltrating and Disrupting Alternative Media Online
http://21stcenturywire.com/2014/02/25/snowden-training-guide-for-gchq-nsa-agents-infiltrating-and-disrupting-alternative-media-online/

The influx of corporate propaganda-spouting posters is blatant and unnatural.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3189367

U.S. Repeals Propaganda Ban, Spreads Government-Made News To Americans
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023262111

The goal of the propaganda assaults across the internet is not to convince anyone of anything.*
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023359801

The government figured out sockpuppet management but not "persona management."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023358242

The Gentleman's Guide To Forum Spies (spooks, feds, etc.)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4159454

Seventeen techniques for truth suppression.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4249741

Just do some Googling on astroturfing - big organizations have some sophisticated tools.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1208351

The influx will continue
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4216987

[Savannahmann]

18. Some do

Some do not. There was another thread that was outraged that the NSA isn't going after scammers who pretend to be the IRS and try and trick people into giving up their credit card numbers to pay off phony fines. So you see the problem, it's a good thing if it goes after those I don't like. http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024705084 Then we should unleash every thing we can think of, anything is justified, if we get those who are doing those kinds of things.

Sadly, that is what we are becoming as a nation, and our Party even supports that idea. The perpetual suggestions and outright claims that the current economy is the "new normal" while it ignores 55 million unemployed who are not actively seeking work, whatever that means. It means we don't have to count them, and we're not going to. But you see the problem. The way that works is I've got a job, and I have mine, fuck you if you don't have one. Welcome to the new normal.

So when we hear about a government agency doing spying on people, instead of joining together outraged that the government would do THAT, we imagine that they are looking at groups we hate. And that is just fine really. I mean, if they are using this to catch groups and people we don't like, then it's a good thing. If you got screwed by someone spying on you, well tough shit, because it hasn't happened to me, and this is the new normal.

By the time it happens to you, or should I say when you realize it's happening to you, it's liable to be too late. It probably is already too late, because so few leaders object to it enough to actually vote against it.

[woo me with science]

6. K&R for a very important post.

I see the obligatory attempt to misdirect and justify this has already begun.

[uncommonlink]

9. Chip, chop, chip, chop.

That's the sound of our rights being slowly axed away by the corp. and govt.
If we, as a nation, don't wake up soon, those rights will be completely gone and once a right is gone, the chances of it ever being recovered are next to none.

WAKE THE FUCK UP AMERICA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[jsr]

14. Recommend

[Angleae]

19. The Navy and Marine Corps are not affected by Posse Comitatus.

Only the Army and Air Force.

The closest you get to prohibiting the navy from enforcing law is in 10 USC 375

"The Secretary of Defense shall prescribe such regulations as may be necessary to ensure that any activity (including the provision of any equipment or facility or the assignment or detail of any personnel) under this chapter does not include or permit direct participation by a member of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps in a search, seizure, arrest, or other similar activity unless participation in such activity by such member is otherwise authorized by law."

[woo me with science]

20. Kick. This is important.

[woo me with science]

22. Kick. Still important.

[woo me with science]

23. kick