Wonder why feminists focus and fight against MRA bullshit? Look inside to understand. Pic heavy.

[boston bean]

:large

[seabeyond]

1. wow. that is something to be proud of. every discussion of woman, she is a tool for his use

that is his right, ya know. how dare women deprive man of his right.

really unsettling knowing that man is out there. feeding to men and boys. and the women that pick it up as us just merely being the man and woman god made us to be.

[chervilant]

2. The hate, resentment,

SEXISM, and misogyny run deep in this pitiful group...

[boston bean]

27. By perusing the comments on some of the articles, you would be suprised

how much religion plays into their beliefs with a mix of evo psych. ie...God made us like that and we evolved that way because of God.

[seabeyond]

41. for the left.... evo psych is the new religion in the name of science with the sole purpose to

back patriarchy thru dominance and control

[Scootaloo]

107. In the same way that meteorology is the new religion of people who fire cannons to make it rain

evo psych has its role... but that role is explaining why humans act like humans instead of, say, like camels (and vice versa). It's not there to explain cultural memetics like "gender roles" but rather to try to explain the existence of culture at all.

Don't curse the field for those idiots who misuse it

[seabeyond]

108. all of science is cursing it, because that is how it is being used. they had better damn well

get a handle on it and get serious, if they want to be taken serious.

the top in the field, taking what is happening today, and story telling it at the beginning of time, to justify dominance and control, is NOT gonna fly

we have actual SCIENCE on our side. not this story telling. they want to be taken serious, they had better get serious instead of playing a damn game that effect lives.

[Scootaloo]

110. I struggle to imagine myceology gives a damn, really

What I'm saying is that it's a valid field of study that a pack of lay idiots are using as self-justification for their already-present biases. Not unlike how racists used to hearken to evolution as "proof" that other races were "less advanced."

[seabeyond]

111. i get that. i know that. and i call them out. until there is a handle on that, the science is

worthless.

when i first started reading about this stuff, more evolutionary biology, founded and grounded than evo psych.... it was very very interesting. then this animal came out of it and theere is a sole purpose. when we see agenda with one sole intent, it is worthless.

they want to be respected and people listen to them, then be respectable and responsible and not agenda to create a religion in the name of science to control adn dominate women. not gonna fly.

[CFLDem]

3. Wow

[seabeyond]

4. so, when we hear the same shit on du, we get pissed and call it out. to be clear. nt

[CFLDem]

5. As you should Sea

as we all should!

[calimary]

6. NO Freakin' KIDDING!!!!

[boston bean]

7. So you will call it out when you see feminists being accused of

saying or thinking or feeling all men are rapists, when discussing rape culture?

[CFLDem]

8. I call out all misogyny everywhere

as I do with any other form of inequality.

As we all should.

[seabeyond]

9. was it you that told us street harassment was not that bad and your wife agreed?

truly, i am asking. i am pretty sure it was you. but... not positive, hence asking instead of making a statement.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

11. Yes, I want to know the answer too. Because maybe, I am also misremembering. Maybe ...

So, I am giving benefit of doubt here ... waiting for reply ...

[seabeyond]

10. i do want to add. even saying that, doing the very speaking out i am talking

about when i see it on du, and you cheering all of us calling it out.

i do give a thumbs up you coming into this Op and supporting it. and other times you have. i recognize that. i also recognize other times when it is not so

[Tuesday Afternoon]

12. Yes, and times like those makes times like this seem sarcastic to me.

I always want to ask him: CFLDem, do I detect a note of sarcasm in that post ... ?

[CFLDem]

13. No sarcasm at all

Avoiceformen is a disgusting group.

They certainly don't speak for me, and I imagine they don't speak for most men.

[boston bean]

14. They speak for MRA's.

And those types of sentiments are what give feminists the heebie jeebies about them. So, when they are noticed, know now why there is push back.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

15. you have some imagination on you, you do.

[bettyellen]

16. "Nanny superior" is quite telling, LOL. Steinem once said

She thought that much of the incomprehensible resistance men have to the idea of women ever telling them what to do was based on a resentment of mommy doing same.

I have seen too many men here spew crap right off those posters. Yeah, they have issues.

They actually seem to believe their role is to tell us whether what we think and feel is valid enough to discuss here. I shake my head wondering where they got the idea that is okay anymore. Their heads are stuck in the fifties/ sixties, when most women quieted down when told to. Sad for them.

[boston bean]

17. That's the thing. Many of these same sentiments

are voiced, and feminists push back, and yet they are the ones who are told, take it to "your group". We don't want to hear it, etc. Are you calling all men rapists? How many frickin times have you seen that?

[riqster]

46. Way too many times.

[fasttense]

18. All that they missed was the FemiNazi reference that Limpballs loves so much

Avoiceformen.com sounds like something fat rich old men made up to promote polygamy.

[CFLDem]

19. What's wrong with polygamy?

Between consenting adults of course.

[seabeyond]

21. And this would be us thinking something nefarious is up. Maybe it is purely lack of knowledge,

Education and awareness pertaining to women's issues.

It could be that simple

[CFLDem]

23. How does polygamy

jar with feminism if the women involved provide enthusiastic consent?

[seabeyond]

26. Google women/feminist objection to polygamy. Educate yourself. Nt

[CFLDem]

29. So enthusiastic consent

No longer means enthusiastic consent if it defies the narrative?

[seabeyond]

42. so... you refuse to educate yourself yet want a conversation?

[CFLDem]

52. Actually I constantly educate myself

especially on women's issues.

Which is how I came to the conclusion that enthusiastic consent for polgamy/polygyny is just as valid as it is for monogamous relationships.

I realize it is cutting edge feminist theory, especially compared to the traditional ideas, so I understand your incredulity.

[seabeyond]

57. no. it is not cutting edge. it is old, tired. and it is fail. cutting edge? fourth wave. nt

[CFLDem]

60. Fourth wave?

I'm on fifth wave!

Oh Sea, We're on different waves, literally!

[seabeyond]

63. i found you in the fifth. men defining. interesting. nt

[fasttense]

88. You are living In a fantasy world.

Look at real polygamy and see how young boys are abandoned on the streets and little girls are forced into marrying 60 year old men. See how the polygamous men have hundreds of children that are placed on welfare and other tax payer supported means because no one can really afford hundreds of children. See how young men have no hope of ever settling down and having children because the fat rich old men monopolize all the young girls. See how these young men join militant and violent groups to disrupt society because they have no hope of ever having enough money to afford a wife. That is real polygamy, not your fantasy about consenting adults.

[nomorenomore08]

127. Exactly. There's how we'd *like* things to be, and how things actually are.

And legalizing polygamous marriage - yes, even in this country - would open an enormous can of worms.

[blueamy66]

213. There are too many people that watch the reality shows about these "happy" polygamous families....

and don't ever see what happens in the real polygamous cultures.

They don't see the welfare fraud....the lack of proper schooling...the abuse of the young girls...

[Tuesday Afternoon]

30. a-ha -

[seabeyond]

47. right on.... i am off

to feed my son. he thinks i am starving him. he needs food and there is none. not even a crumb to be had.

you woman

have a good day

[fasttense]

86. A 15 year old girl can not provide enthusiastic consent

And it seems that in practice polygamy always turns into child abuse. It's the little girls that the fat old men want, not woman of an appropriate age.

[Hip_Flask]

87. It means that women have a right to choose...

... From a list of pre approved positions otherwise they need someone smarter than them to "save" them from their poor choices or brainwashing.

[seabeyond]

90. so, OhioJoe had your number. got it.

[BainsBane]

118. Or rape?

of underage girls by adult men, as is commonplace in polygamist communities?

[fasttense]

85. It always leads to child and spouse abuse when in practice.

It sounds so great. If you are all consenting adults, a man should be able to have as many wives as he can amass. But in reality it always leads to child abuse. The girls the old rich men want are not their age. It's always younger and younger little girls they want.

[seabeyond]

92. a man should be able to have as many wives as he can amass.

wow. and you are standing up for women in this subthread too.

[fasttense]

94. I was being facetious

I thought that comment was so disturbing that no one would take it seriously.

[seabeyond]

96. thank you thank you THANK YOU.....

lol lol lol

oh, that was fun

i was trippin on your smart posts explaining and yet.... reading that. too funny. you have me with a huge ass smile. thanks fast.

that was good.

[CFLDem]

100. Way to change the subject.

We're talking about poly relationships for consenting adults, not pedophilia. E.g 1 man/woman with multiple other men/women.

If you cannot stay on topic, I take it you have no legitimate evidence against polygamy/polygyny.

[seabeyond]

102. hence, me telling you to educate yourself on polygamy so you can see what the issue is.

your need to wrap this up in a pretty ribbon doesnt work upside reality

as fast and other posters are telling you.

[nomorenomore08]

128. Poly relationships in themselves are fine. It's allowing a wealthy man to amass as many wives

as he wants - which is what would inevitably happen, especially in an uber-capitalist society like ours - that's problematic.

[CFLDem]

135. This 'amassing' wives concept is interesting.

So if a poly can 'amass' many wives, does that mean a mono only 'amasses' one wife?

It's times like this I'm glad to be a fifth wave feminist- we don't think of marriage in terms of people owning people.

What is this, the 20th century?

[nomorenomore08]

138. I don't think of it that way either. But it's hard to separate a wealthy man having many wives

from the idea of wives as property.

[CFLDem]

141. Well everything is property to a wealthy person

that ruthless objectification is part of what allows them to be wealthy.

[LadyHawkAZ]

139. Short answer: there are differences between polyamory and polygamy

The biggest being, polyamory is generally based on the closeness, consent, affection and happiness of all parties involved, while polygamy is more religious based and is closer to a purchase of new livestock than a marriage. Think Charlie Sheen's porn family vs FLDS "marriages" and you'll see the difference.

[CFLDem]

143. Thank you for that.

I appreciate the level headed response. 👍

[The Straight Story]

50. Rush calls women he doesn't agree with feminazis, others call men that don't agree with MRA (nt)

[redqueen]

101. Calling someone a "feminazi" is nothing like calling someone an "MRA"

These terms are not in any way alike. At all.

[The Straight Story]

103. The idea is simply

Don't address someone on what they posted but simply with something like 'well, mra says the same thing' or 'that's and nra talking point about guns' etc and so on.

Set up a scene where one group has some known members to be idiots, bring up the dumb things they do all the time, and when someone does not agree with you an issue brand them or what they are saying as being part of that group to shoot down the argument.

Happens quite a bit, guilt by association where you (not you personally) make a connection to a group and believe that alone will win out the argument/ideals being discussed.

So yes - their usage is just the same.

[seabeyond]

104. would that be like saying .... da doors, to many many womens issues brought up? nt

[redqueen]

106. When men on DU post that sometimes when women say no, they really mean yes - that's MRA bullshit.

It's not anything like when misogynists demonize feminists by using words like "feminazi" and for you to say so is... well... typical, really.

[The Straight Story]

109. But you are assigning something

Which may well have never existed in the first place.

If a poster says x and the mra also says x it does not follow that the poster knows or cares about mra at all.

Maybe they don't spend their free time perusing their sites or care that they exist. Some people like looking for things like that and will turn over any rock to show that some idiots out there are bad and hence they are being oppressed because some are, indeed, acting in an oppressive manner. Assigning that to everyone else based on their opinion on a few topics is just an attempt to not address the topic at all.

I am pro 2nd amd, but I don't read the nra website, not a member, don't even own a gun. Assigning things I say as 'nra says it to! And since they are a bad organization/group your argument is bad' just makes no sense (but it is an easy way to not discuss what is being said).

I am sure there are feminists I could find on the web, read about hours a day, and post here on DU that you do not think are representative of feminism in general. And if I labeled any arguments you made in such as way as 'well, this group says the same thing so I am not surprised' you might be a tad put off that. In fact I have seen some posts here about Dworkin and others where people were quick to say 'well, she doesn't represent all feminists/etc'. But certainly some would agree with some things she said.

[seabeyond]

117. If they are not aware of mra talking points, then making them aware

Should result in a thank you, I did not know.... From them. Right? Not outrage that a woman dared to educate them that they are spouting out mra talkng points

[The Straight Story]

120. What does that even mean?

if they are not coming from that group but have an opinion that is like that group on a particular issue what does pointing out that a group they could care less about holds the same opinion?

It is simply an attempt to associate them with something seen as a negative and does not address the opinion at all.

We all have done it, it is easy to do, but that does not make it right.

I don't read mra stuff online, don't really care to. I do post a lot on reddit (60k link karma) but stick to the news sections and IamA sections. From what I have seen on here there is an mra section there that people bring up on DU. Does it follow that because I post on reddit and some on reddit are in an mra subreddit that things I say are from there somehow? If people hate what they say and don't agree why are they spending all their time reading what such people are saying in the first place and then using what those folks say to label people here when their opinion does not match with someone Else's here?

I don't care what mra types think. I am sure they have some valid opinions on court issues and custody, but that also bleeds over into feminism and labeling women as somehow different from men and being better/more naturally suited to raising kids. A stereotype they don't want with an affect that men don't want either. So if I agree that in the past it has been a big issue for men in custody cases would you point out for some reason that mra people think that too? Would it make it any less valid?

[seabeyond]

152. when someone comes on this site and says democrats give all the money to the poor. we educate and

say rw talking points. that is what that even means.

continue with the rw talking points, find another board.

[The Straight Story]

156. And who defines this?

I am pro 2nd (and pretty much all) amendments. I have heard folks say defending the right for people to be allowed to purchase and own a gun is nra/rw talking point. I see it two ways: 1, policy disagreement and 2, calling it a rw talking point is saying that there aren't any democrats who are pro-2nd (Obama seems to be).

You will find some (not all) catholics, and others, who have a varying degree of beliefs/ideals (even if they don't want it banned) on abortion and when life begins. Their arguments could be the same as folks who are republicans.

On the other hand you might find someone like me who believes your body, your choice is not just a slogan for one thing but for many and folks can say 'oh, libertarian because you believe people should have more freedom' - which is basically saying I have talking points from that group. It is also denoting that democrats aren't for more freedoms which would mean they are for less (and some are).

It might be best if we all (myself included cause I am just as guilty at times) either simply ignore arguments we don't agree with or engage in them and try to understand the differences and why they exist. Simply labeling someone as rw, misogynistic, mra, libertarian, etc just side steps discussion in favor stereotyping and pigeonholing (which might be fine for some political parties but when you have a big tent made up of many little ones it does not, nor should, work too well).

[redqueen]

193. Nope. "Feminazi" demonizes feminists by comparing them to Nazis.

It is used to marginalize and insult feminists.

"MRA" is a type of activist who believes and promotes rape apologia, spreads propaganda intended to distort the facts about male violence against women, promotes arguments intended to minimize issues such as the wage gap, etc.

It is a label applied to men who participate in such activities.

[seabeyond]

195. and mra is a proper label at that. would be like limbaugh yelling at us... you feminists. ya. ok. nt

[redqueen]

198. Yep. One is a pejorative and the other is simply the correct term.

Of course, 'feminist' has been demonized just like 'liberal' was, but that seems to be changing as well, finally.

[gtar100]

20. They may be "a voice for men" but if I ever heard that on the radio, I'd turn it off.

And more than likely preceded by my own expletive. Two reactions to this... first, what the hell is wrong with these guys; and second, who has the time for making this shit. These posters are just incredibly divisive and in complete denial of reality. Plus, I don't see any particularly worthwhile objective they are trying to accomplish. I am one guy who will clearly say they are not a voice for me. They assume too much if they think they speak for anyone but themselves.

[redqueen]

54. AVFM is just one organization. Other, more insidious MRA groups

are often disguised as "fathers' rights" groups.

http://www.salon.com/2009/11/05/mens_rights/
http://www.bostonmagazine.com/2012/08/angry-men-feminist-agenda/

[AverageJoe90]

122. Heartiste and Return of Kings are two of the worst examples I've seen.

Especially the former. This guy isn't just an extreme misogynist, he's a hardcore racist to boot(not surprising!).

[Ohio Joe]

22. The out right lies the MRA's work so hard to get into the mainstream seem endless...

It goes from the 'all men are rapists' bullshit to the 'RAINN denies rape culture exists' stupidity to the 'cherry picking various statistics to lie about how men are the truly oppressed' foolishness.

Sites like this adviceformen, spout the meme's but you won't see anyone on DU supporting them openly, only cries about how they are 'just extremists'... Yet you will see the meme's repeated here over and over and over. Look in our 'mens' group or any thread that involves feminism here in GD and they are often repeated.

[boston bean]

24. That's it Joe. The denial of being one, but spouting the same talking points and sickness of an MRA.

[ismnotwasm]

45. Exactly

I've seen almost word for word spew from one or another of their blogs here-- but they certainly won't claim the label.

[redqueen]

62. It's jarring to see those who do things like

going into a thread about street harassment, where women are simply trying to raise awareness of how common it is, how wrong it is, and how it is intended to maintain the elevated social status of men as a group as compared to women as a group -- and they post about how it's not that big of a deal, that women are oppressing men by discussing it, that women are talking about it too much, etc -- and then seeing them showing up in other threads such as this one, claiming to be dead set against MRAs.

[seabeyond]

65. street harassment, polgamy good, MRA, bad. but, i am told that is the fifth.

gonna have to look at the fifth. the first one i came up on was a man defining it and us women. so will be interesting the search and education. looks like there may be another "male" feminism, or not. maybe purely misinterpretation. but, i am out the door....

[AverageJoe90]

123. Yes, very true.

I'm a feminist and I don't believe all men are rapists myself.....I happen to be a guy myself, for one. And just like most Social Justice advocates don't believe that literally all whites are racist. And when a truly extremist radical DOES make such an absurd claim, they are usually quickly corrected by many of their peers.

Contrary to the ramblings of MRAs, most of us are actually quite reasonable people. Same with Social Justice as well.

[seabeyond]

155. i have never heard a feminist say all men are rapists. even the most radical. i have heard many men

claim that feminist say that.

the saying is.

all men are POTENTIAL rapist

a woman does not know if a man is a rapist or not. we do not read minds. so women walk life knowing any man can rape and to be aware. no more or less.

[ismnotwasm]

25. I still think there is something psychologically wrong with them (*graphic pic warning*)

We have a systems problem that is oppressive to women, a culture problem that is dangerous to women.

And there is no place in the world these systems and cultures don't exist.

Here is an extreme example-- but a logical end result when it gets to the point of extremist views.


This is a photo of of 15 year old Nobisa Begam-- acid was thrown on her for turning down a marriage proposal. She is from Bangladesh, but there are such atrocities committed against women every day, in every country.

So back to MRA's. Since the men in my life are sane, I can't help but question the basic mental stability of these groups. I can see getting caught up in one out of rage, but to stay? To come up with weird ass bullshit like the examples in your post?

Then again, I think no, you're wrong, these men aren't crazy, they're lazy thinkers and whiners who prey not only on women, but vulnerable, hurt men.
I read their blogs, it's mostly attempts to stir up shit. Snarky, poorly written crap.

But then, do I really think these men are benign? That they are free from violence against women? Not even a little bit. The vitriol they spew comes from fantasy, and then I'm back to square one-- they're groups of very disturbed men who take up others in their vortex of hate and anger.

And in case people don't know this-- they are considered hate groups.

A Voice for Men
A Voice for Men is essentially a mouthpiece for its editor, Paul Elam, who proposes to “expose misandry [hatred of men] on all levels in our culture.” Elam tosses down the gauntlet in his mission statement: “AVfM regards feminists, manginas [a derisive term for weak men], white knights [a similar derisive term, for males who identify as feminists] and other agents of misandry as a social malignancy. We do not consider them well intentioned or honest agents for their purported goals and extend to them no more courtesy or consideration than we would clansmen [sic], skinheads, neo Nazis or other purveyors of hate.” Register-Her.com, an affiliated website that vilifies women by name who have made supposedly false rape allegations (among other crimes against masculinity), is one of Elam’s signature “anti-hate” efforts. “Why are these women not in prison?” the site asks.

http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2012/spring/misogyny-the-sites

[seabeyond]

28. Too many men are fed this too much in too much if their lives. Of course it is effective.

Excellent post ism. You hit it all, lol, in your circular thinking

[ismnotwasm]

32. I know

I don't know why I think they need the excuse of being mentally ill--people who are mentally ill are also prey for these people, and it insults those who suffer from chemical imbalances of the brain for me to give them that excuse.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

31. better put a *graphic Pic warning* in your subject line, ism ....

yes, I think it needs a warning ....

[ismnotwasm]

35. Ok

Done.

[Out of Time Man]

33. This is a classic Rovian move...

...Say/Do reprehensible things, and then accuse the other side of doing/saying those same reprehensible things. In the event you are called out on your bullshit, just shout louder and more frequently to drive home the misinformation.

I've seen far too many of my generation fall for these kinds of messages. I don't know if that stems from their utter lack/understanding of history, or they just feel cheated themselves and Feminists are an easy target to point their frustrations at.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

39. welcome to DU, Out of Time Man

[Out of Time Man]

48. Thank You!

It's good to be here. Perusing DU has been a pastime for me for the last five years. I'm glad I finally took the time to join the conversations here.

[seabeyond]

55. and i

thought i was gonna immediately go into battle. a pleasant surprise. and it should not be a surprise. teaches me, each. and. every. time.

do not walk in with expectations. read a whole post.

welcome.

[Out of Time Man]

80. Thank you for the warm welcome, seabeyond!

[etherealtruth]

58. Welcome to DU!

[Out of Time Man]

75. Thank You!

I appreciate the warm welcome!

[alcibiades_mystery]

206. Now it's half past two

Welcome to DU!

[Out of Time Man]

207. Thank you!

So glad you caught the reference in my screen name!

[riqster]

34. This is likely to piss people off, but I will say it anyway:

Part of the message of these scumbuckets is meant to do two jobs at once: first, separate "those" feminists from the "reasonable ones, and at the same time tar all those who dislike patriarchal abuse with the same brush. Brilliantly insidious, but not new: it's been done for centuries to divide and conquer.

The problem I see here and elsewhere is: some among us are OK with a little bit of MRA bullshit, but not if it is too overt or rude. And when one accepts a little bit of dehumanizing propaganda, it empowers the propagandist and furthers their accomplishments.

We need a zero-tolerance policy for anti-feminist horseshit. Just like we do for racism, making sport of the disabled, homophobia, and any other dehumanizing rhetoric or actions.

There is no room in a civilized world for "a little bit of MRA".

[ismnotwasm]

36. +1000

[Tuesday Afternoon]

38. "There is no room in a civilized world for "a little bit of MRA".

Not in my world there isn't. Thank you.

[seabeyond]

59. one accepts a little bit of dehumanizing propaganda, it empowers the propagandist

absolutely. point on.

[riqster]

61. Thanks, Sea.

[BainsBane]

116. Precisely, because it's bigotry

There is no other way to describe this ideology other than based on bigotry of and hatred for women. It's comparable to White Supremacist ideology.

[riqster]

119. S'truth.

Bunch of blinkered, pig-ignorant, hate-filled fuckwits.

I have no use for such.

[AverageJoe90]

121. Don't have any tolerance for MRAs, either.

They are MALE supremacists is what they are. And like all forms of supremacism, whether it be white supremacy, black supremacy, straight supremacy, etc. it ought to be condemned by ALL people who consider themselves decent human beings, no matter what they identify as, progressive or otherwise.

[nomorenomore08]

129. Absolutely. With you all the way.

[etherealtruth]

37. The MRA rhetoric equals the poor maligned white male schtick

One must wonder why equality frightens them so much? Clearly, competing on a level playing with women and minorities frightens them to their very core.

[riqster]

40. It's an unintended consequence of privilege:

Having your life made easier makes you lazy, and thus less able to compete.

Thence the fear of a level playing field. They KNOW they cannot compete.

[etherealtruth]

43. .... that is exactly the way I see it

[hfojvt]

72. I have never cared for the whole notion of competing

whether the playing field was level or not.

I really prefer cooperation to competition.

[etherealtruth]

79. You have a point about cooperation ...

... that is my personal style; however, I think the issues at play with these particular groups is eliminating competition.

[Hip_Flask]

44. As usual... a decent concept taken to the extreme by a relatively small percentage of nutters...

[ismnotwasm]

51. It started with custody battles

My husband, who ended up with custody of his two daughters when one was a baby and one was barely a toddler-- went to a group called "DAD's" (Dad's against discrimination) he got paralegal help and advice as his ex-wife had abandoned them. Nonetheless, I went with him one time when she decided to take him to court when she reappeared and the first thing I heard was "so what did the c*** do now?"

The anger started there I think, in custody cases, then turned to something completely destructive and malignant.

[Ohio Joe]

53. And what is this 'decent concept'?

A little misogyny is ok?

[Hip_Flask]

73. I usually default to the custody issues...

... but I'm sure there are others.

You seem very sensitive. Something you wanna get off your chest?

[Ohio Joe]

76. Sensative? No... I am just curious how much misogyny you think is ok...

You seem to want to be a bit vague with it... Why not just come out and speak your mind?

[Hip_Flask]

84. I gave very a specific example...

Unless you consider men taking an equal role in their children's lives as misogyny....

Of course that would explain the sensitivity... No wonder you seem so irritable.

[bettyellen]

95. ooh, deflecting with very personal insults. aren't you a champ at debate? stop imaging a tone and

try actually answering what was asked. Or would that "irritate" you? HA.

[Ohio Joe]

98. Specific? All you said was "custody issues" and "others"... That could be many things

Many of them misogynistic, especially hen one considers you are agreeing with MRA's... I suspect there is a reason you do not want to actually get specific on what you mean and instead try to portray me as being irritable.

[seabeyond]

91. here is another really good example. polygamy. YEA!!! you are good joe

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4817083

[Ohio Joe]

99. Yeah... They are not very good at hiding...

I'm certain that one will have a good stay

[nomorenomore08]

130. Even if they might have an occasional valid point, we don't need them to make it.

The total effect of MRA ways of thinking on our discourse is far too toxic to give them any "in" at all.

[Hip_Flask]

134. Sorry but that's intellectual laziness...

"Yes, you have a valid point but since I don't like your other positions I choose to ignore it..."

[nomorenomore08]

136. We can make those valid points with no need for MRA's to do it. That's what I meant. n/t

[Hip_Flask]

140. How satisfied would you be.

... If a group of men said something along the lines of "Don't worry about it sugar. We'll make sure to bring up your issues and get that taken care of for you. Why don't you sit this one out because the rest of what you are saying doesn't really jive..."

[nomorenomore08]

144. I'm a man myself. And I really don't get your point.

What specific issue of yours is so important that it needs to brought up right now?

[Hip_Flask]

146. My point is that no feminist worth her salt...

... would ever accept "What specific issue of yours is so important that it needs to brought up right now?"

The primary gripe that I know of from MRAs is the huge gap in equality when custody of children is meted out. That is an issue that should be addressed right the hell now. There is a statistically significant portion of the population who is being denied access to their father or worse being used as a weapon in court.


As for all the other craziness, chuck it in the bin.

[nomorenomore08]

150. The problem is they blame feminism for things that aren't feminists' fault at all.

The notion that women are by nature better parents/nurturers didn't come from feminism, after all.

[Hip_Flask]

151. Not at all...

It's hard wired and buried deep in our cultural psyche... Just like a bunch of other bullshit... We've cut out a bunch of it up till now and I'm sure there is more to come.

In the end, there are legitimate points and issues and the automatic venom that is spewed at the mere mention of "men's rights" comes off as spiteful, insecure and petty.

[seabeyond]

163. that is not factually true. factually, the majority of fathers do not want primary custody. that

is why it mostly goes to women, statistically.

statistically the man with more money has privilege all over in the courts compared to the women.

and the money is awarded in a split. i f the woman is doing the earnings and has the assets, then she is the one paying out.

you are incorrect. that courts has and is presently addressing perceived imbalances. BUT.... you want to start a thread on it, an OP? go for it. many will participate with facts. it is out of my ballpark compared to many people on du. this really has nothing to do with this thread. you have one thing. courts.

if this is such a huge damn issue, why is NO man talking about it, but in threads women address the misogyny in the mra crowd?

[Hip_Flask]

189. Why isn't someone talking about it?

I would guess because ...

a) It isn't sexy

b) Anyone who is perceived to be associating anything positive with MRAs will get the same friendly treatment I have so far

if this is such a huge damn issue, why is NO man talking about it, but in threads women address the misogyny in the mra crowd?

Some men are, you just aren't paying attention it seems.

[seabeyond]

191. the problem, yoru point is hollow. empty. worthless. MRA use is to harass, hate, bully, women,

not address any real issue with boys and men. you can defend them all you wnat that there might be a point in one issue, though fatcually you would be incorrect, but that does not matter. cause mra does nothing to advance men and boys. their ONLY purpose is to find way to harass girls and women.

Here’s the thing: If you don’t like someone’s comments online, you are certainly well within your rights to quote them and point out why you don’t like what they said. That’s kind of the point of this blog. But it’s one thing to point out these comments, and another thing entirely to track down their identity and stalk them in real life. It’s another thing to whip up a virtual mob against them.

Doxxing by Men’s Rights Activists isn’t an accident; it’s the inevitable result of the peculiar style of Men’s Rights Activism.

MRAs, you see, seem utterly incapable of engaging in any kind of activism that might actually benefit men in the real world in any concrete manner. What they as a group specialize in is demonizing women, and in the case of too many MRAS, nothing gets their activist juices flowing faster than the opportunity to attack an individual woman.

That’s why A Voice for Men “activists” put up “wanted” style posters featuring their favorite feminist villains of the day; it’s why they started Register-Her.com. That’s why a certain red-haired Canadian activist who yelled at some MRAs once at a protest now finds her image splashed everywhere online as a visual representation of an evil feminist. That’s why MRAs show up at protests with cameras and threaten to expose the women they film — even if they’ve done nothing more than stand there with a sign.

http://manboobz.com/category/reddit/

this is what they do. this is what the spend their time on. this is what you come to du and what to talk about, how the mra is misunderstood and picked on. this is who you defend and make excuses for.

the only purpose of the group is to hurt women and girls.

that is what you defend.

what a man.

[davidn3600]

205. MRAs formed mainly as a way to oppose feminism

Their focus is to be a counter to feminism more than it is to help boys or men. They think feminism itself is hurting boys. And they think feminist care more about female advocacy than equal rights. They also focus on a lot of absurd topics. Which is why I think MRAs are misguided.

But I also think modern feminism is misguided too. So I don't consider myself a feminist either.

I think feminism for the most part, in how it operates today, is beyond its time. I think the first and second waves were needed to change the institutional laws and permit women equal access to education and in the workplace. But I think we have reached a point where we are going to start seeing diminishing returns because new laws are not going to have much effect.

Take equal pay for example....you can pass all the laws you want and it won't make any difference in the gender pay gap because the law isn't the problem. When I was a kid in my very first job, I had a boss who was a racist. But I didn't know he was racist...he hid that about him very well. What opened my eyes was when I witnessed him take an application from a black man applying for a job. As soon as that black man left, my boss put the application in the trash can. Now, Im 15 or 16 at this point and very limited experience in the real world. I grew up with family and teachers that always emphasized that I should treat people equally. But witnessing this made me realize that not everyone who is a racist (or a sexist) wears that badge on their shoulder for the world to see.
My point in telling you this is that even though things are illegal, people will still do it. It was illegal for my employer to discriminate against that black man, but he still did it. You can change the laws, but that doesn't mean you accomplished anything. The reason a gender gap exists is not because of a law that needs to be passed, but because you have institutional sexism through corporate America. Attitudes need to change in order to end this.

Feminism is very good at changing laws and policies. But it has only had limited success in changing attitudes and beliefs of individual people. The patriarchy has proven to be stronger than you may have realized. It forfeited legal ground, but it's holding firm socially and culturally. And I think feminism has kind of failed to effectively attack the patriarchy in that manner. Young women today in the 3rd wave need to actually be stronger fighters than their mothers and grandmothers were. Because moms and grandmas fought the patriarchy on legal grounds. That was actually a piece a cake compared to the cultural and social battle that needs to be waged. And in order to win THAT battle....both men and women need to change the way they view each other. Feminism fails on this. And that's why I really think it's just as misguided as MRAs. It's way too divisive and politically isolated.

[redqueen]

209. Feminism is just as misguided as MRAs?

Interesting.

False equivalence, of course, but ... interesting ... nonetheless.

[davidn3600]

210. Just my opinion

Both have largely become radical in my view of things.

Stuff like "rape culture" I find to be mostly nonsense and evidence that mainstream feminism is starting to lose the big picture. And MRAs tend to support a lot of junk statistics and have no real focus or organization. Both have a lot of problems and is the reason a vast majority of Americans wouldnt want to identify with either one.

[redqueen]

214. "Stuff like "rape culture" I find to be mostly nonsense"

Yeah, trust me, we know.

Which is why you think feminists are just as bad as MRAs.

[seabeyond]

215. your post sounds like it is reasoned, but, there is too much wrong to really address

feminism was successful, is successful and will continue to be

it is all about voice. awareness. education.

[redqueen]

194. What you perceive as their primary gripe is a bunch of bullshit.

About 7% of divorced men have a legitimate issue that needs to be addressed.

Unfortunately for them, the MRA movement had hijacked that one issue.

What’s so wrong with those goals, you may well wonder. As Joyce illustrates, the issues MRAs are pushing are much more complex than they seem. For instance, divorcing parents are usually able to work out custody agreements on their own. Only 15 percent of cases go to court, and, of those, half involve domestic abuse. Tragically, even in those instances, mothers don’t always have the upper hand. A common family-court defense of fathers whose children testify that they are abusive is something called “Parental Alienation Syndrome,” “a medically unrecognized diagnosis that suggests mothers have poisoned their children into making false accusations against their fathers.” Joyce tells the story of Genia Shockome, a woman who spent 30 days in jail and whose husband was awarded full custody of their children, despite the fact that his abuse had left her with post-traumatic stress disorder. Incredibly, Shockome’s story doesn’t end there: After criticizing the judge’s decision in print, her attorney was slapped with a five-year suspension.

http://www.salon.com/2009/11/05/mens_rights/

I keep posting the truth about these frightening groups, but it seems few are interested in finding out what they're really about.

More: http://www.bostonmagazine.com/2012/08/angry-men-feminist-agenda/

[seabeyond]

196. yes you do. as does others. i knew the info was there. thanks for providing. it truly is a strawman.

[redqueen]

197. Well not completely. There are those few dads who really do get a raw deal.

Unfortunately they have a shit-ton of abusive assholes and various misogynists piggy backing onto their legitimate issue in order to attack the protections women and children have gained over the years.

It's fucking sick and it'd be nice if more people noticed / cared.

[Bonobo]

147. The problem is that "MRA" is used as a catch-all title to silence discussion. nt

[nomorenomore08]

149. I've never used it that way. If others do, then that's their problem, not yours or mine. n/t

[Bonobo]

153. Well you sort of just did.

You said "we don't need MRA's" to do such and such...

Let's say someone gets painted as an MRA on DU. Then ANYTHING that person says can be dismissed as coming from an "MRA'er" - even legitimate issues because, -AS YOU SAY- we don't need (even legitimate issues) brought up by an MRA'er.

That's why dismissing people with labels IS a problem.

MRA means "Men's Rights Advocate". So you can either say:

1. Men don't have rights
2. Men don't need rights protected because they already have ALL the advantages
3. Men bring up the issues of rights out of misogynistic motivation

I'm not sure which of the above you believe in, but I don't really see how the Men's Group could be called MRAs or even, for that matter, what it means except for a sound. It appears to be used as a stand-in for "misogynist". Is that what it means now?

[nomorenomore08]

157. I don't consider the Men's Group an MRA group. If I did, I wouldn't bother to read/post

over there. And I can't say with certainty that all self-identified MRA's hate women, but the movement is so suffused with misogyny that I have to wonder about their motives, at the least.

#1 is just silly, and manifestly untrue. #2 is an oversimplification, but with a degree of truth to it. And as for #3, I have to conclude that that is the case more often than not, based on the MRA's whose perspectives I've read.

As I've said before, men in this society do have legitimate issues which need to be addressed. But most self-proclaimed MRA's seem to spend far more time trashing women/feminism than actually working on those issues.

[Bonobo]

159. Fair enough.

"men in this society do have legitimate issues which need to be addressed." - Yes, they do. And it would be nice to do so without being called a misogynist all the time.

In any case, you may not do so, but the label MRA is tossed around ALL the time here by a group of about 4-5 posters who another active DU thread has clearly shown present themselves falsely and with hidden agendas. Furthermore, their intense anger and hatred is there for all to see now.

[boston bean]

161. Any male who thinks feminism is the cause of their woes is an MRA

whether they would like to admit it or not.

The hostility shown to feminists by the MRA movement is manifested in many ways. Like when feminists speak about rape culture and MRA's turn it around stating they feminists think all men are rapists. Therefore they believe feminists are oppressing them.

Quite a sick line of thinking wouldn't you say?

[Bonobo]

165. I think that depends on what is really happening.

On DU, in particular, years and years of history can combine to create a great deal of friction and animosity that has little indeed with the CONTENT of what is being said and what is actually going on. For example, people do things, post things, say things as ways of pricking and stabbing at each other.

So what you THINK you are seeing when you "see" something here is not always, or even often, the whole story.

So it isn't really "feminists" so much as it is individuals who used their issues as vehicles. No one has any interest other than reducing rapes, for example, but there are those that want to portray a group of people as being either "rape defenders", "pedophile defenders" (yes, they have said that to people), etc.

Do they actually think people defend rape? ARE there people that defend rape? Hell no. Does it suit their position to paint people as doing so? Hell yes.

So, YES, it would be sick if you believed that your woes are due to feminists. I honestly don't think anyone here does.

OTOH, there are women here whose tones (yes, TONES) are so vile, abusive, rude that they simply cannot discuss anything without creating an enemy in order to appear to be fighting for a righteous cause. What would be best would be if they could actually discuss these issues with us, who are actually allies, and fight with Republicans and the like. But since DU is not filled with those people, they are forced to bait and bait and bait until they get even a WHIFF of pushback and then BAM, ENEMY!!!!

So...in closing... it it NOT Feminist VS. MRA. It is quite rude people who need to create "enemies" vs. people who will not stand for that x 10 years or more of history on DU.

[boston bean]

169. Why have you decided who is a feminist?

With MRA's it most certainly has to do with feminists.

And when the same talking points and tactics being used are those that are used by MRA's, what is it people should think?

MRA's frame feminists views as calling all men rapists and pedophiles or defenders of rape.

That is something that is in your own imagination, and not pertinent to the discussion surrounding rape culture. It is nothing but a derailment and diversion from the actual discussion taking place.

[Bonobo]

172. We are not discussing rape culture here. This sub-thread has to do with using the term MRA

as a catch-all.

"MRA's frame feminists views as calling all men rapists and pedophiles or defenders of rape. "

That is a good example to get into the issue. Here is one way the false labeling is done.

1. MRA's believe that women are the cause for their unhappiness.
2. You seem unhappy and are attacking women (i.e you disagree with me in some way)
3. You are an MRA

My point is that MRA itself is just a title that could mean a thousand different things. But the way it is THROWN AROUND here is a way to silence any man that may have any kind of disagreement with a statement. You disagree therefore you are an MRA (misogynist) is not a reasonable way to have a conversation.

[boston bean]

174. Hey when someone thinks feminists are oppressing them

I don't know what you want me to think. It's a big bright red target that says, HEY I'm an MRA.

Or those who think any discussion about rape culture is oppressive to men, and discriminatory. Hey, I'm an MRA... they might as well say.

Those are specifics. Those are things that MRA's believe. Whether one calls onself one or not, is not the issue. It is identifiable and irrefutable, that those are sick things that MRA's say. When they are being used in the same way by someone who says they aren't an MRA, there isn't much of a distinction to be had.

Since this is a subthread about using the term MRA, I'm providing you specifics as to the reason why it would be used and why you would see it.

Speak to them or not.. It's up to you.

[nomorenomore08]

164. Might it be worth pondering why certain people are so "angry"?

You don't have to agree with them, but you should try to understand where they're coming from.

[Bonobo]

166. I can understand it. It doesn't change things.

They have labelled me enemy. I ALWAYS punch back when attacked. Doesn't matter who is the puncher or why.

It is not a war of ideology fundamentally, but an issue of bad behavior.

[nomorenomore08]

168. You may be right. And I would never say you shouldn't defend yourself when attacked.

I also tend to think that we, on here, agree on a lot more than we disagree on. It's the relatively small points of disagreement, often as not, that are blown up into these huge flamefests.

[boston bean]

170. No, it is the use of MRA tactics and ideas that lead to much of the angst.

[nomorenomore08]

171. I agree those sorts of talking points don't belong on DU. Absolutely. n/t

[The Straight Story]

173. And on the flip side of that

A lot of angst comes in when:

Men only do things for women because they want to oppress them benevolently/etc.

We only look at women because we want to do them, we only talk to them to get them into bed, we only compliment them because x/y/z, you like a magazine cover and you hate women and want to keep them pregnant and barefoot in the kitchen, and so on.

When just about every little action from looking to talking to everything else is assigned a motive and labeled as misogynist that might lead to some angst as well - especially when someone contradicts that view and then are told they are mra.....

Women have a tough time in this world. I support democrats and women's rights. But I am not seen as an ally because I won't agree every action is done from a position of hate against women, etc.

[boston bean]

175. It's a discussion about the effect the culture has on women.

You don't have to agree with every danged thing, but damn, at least try to understand.

Instead of getting all personally hurt by it. My God, no one was ever speaking of you personally.

I suppose it would be to much to ask you to stop with those types of derailments?

[Bonobo]

176. The thing is, you only NOTICE derailments.

When I do not post on a thread, it is -of course- not noticed (duh) but when someone says or does ANYTHING, it is called derailment in a hostile manner.

EXAMPLE: Sheshe had started a thread showing "human beauty" in photos. It showed a beautiful ballerina. OK, got it. That is OBVIOUSLY beautiful. The most obvious form.

I decided to participate in the thread by showing a LESS OBVIOUS form of human beauty. It was a photo of an old Japanese man in a suit on the subway asleep. To me it represented a form of humility and beauty. One found through self-sacrifice and not showing off. That was my message and intent. I posted it with ZERO negative commentary on anyone and got absolutely SHAT upon for "derailing".

THAT is the environment in which I find myself here. THAT is my reality with the more aggressive and angry posters with whom I butt heads.

[boston bean]

178. hmmm... maybe some self reflection would be a good idea.

[The Straight Story]

180. Indeed, it is a discussion

And understanding is a two way street we should all drive on a little more often.

It is not a derailment to discuss how things are discussed and it happens here quite a bit.

Someone says "I am not really offended by that mag cover, I thought the people on it were good looking" it is like the gates of hell open up and a flood of accusations that people hate women, don't care about their feelings, etc washes over the thread. Were they personally on the cover? No. Did the people on it choose to be? Yes. And since that cover was about them if I replied like you did I would be told I was trying to shut up people and so on.

People can like things. Men can actually like women, find them pretty, even (dare I say it) sexy - and that is not a bad thing. One can treat women differently in some things because they prefer women to men. You might pay for that lunch not because you think women can't or are weak etc but because you prefer women and like to show appreciation for them existing.

But on DU? No, everything has a side motive that needs analyzed and reduced to it's because you are misogynist. Every little action is torn apart and analyzed through the lens that since you are a man you are probably deficient somehow when it comes to women and your understanding of them and everything you do is a product of your ignorance and deep seated hatred/fear of them.

It is hard to have a discussion when the starting premise is that just about everything you say or do is somehow bad and your actions are all based on you wanting to get off and that men only see women as sex objects.

[boston bean]

181. When you find yourself on a different side on almost all issues

with feminists regarding pretty mainstream feminist thought... you've got to own it.

[Sheldon Cooper]

199. And it looks like your bad behavior has earned you a two-month vacation.

Good.

[bravenak]

200. Alerted!!!!

On Mon Apr 14, 2014, 02:25 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

And it looks like your bad behavior has earned you a two-month vacation.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4821519

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Taking a swipe at a poster who can't defend himself. Completely uncalled for and unnecessary.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Mon Apr 14, 2014, 02:37 PM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I see nothing naughty in this post. In fact,
I tend to suspect a sock could have alerted on it.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: What kind of stupid alert is this, eh? A waste of time, thanks alot. I was hoping for this to be real but i see somebody has an itchy alert finger. If we can reply to posts of people who have us on ignore, then we can respond to posts of people who have been given an involuntary vacation. I see nothing over the top or wrong with this post. Whoever alerted this needs a break from alerting for a while.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.


I was number 7.

[Sheldon Cooper]

201. Heh. Not a bit surprised at the alert.

Thanks for the vote. And I tend to agree with Juror 6 - probably a sock doing the alerting in the first place.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

49. MRA = some kind of secret code word? A shiboleth? Do share, please. nt

[riqster]

56. Men's Rights Activist

And here is my rude-assed take on those nutters:
"There is no need for a “men’s rights” anything. We males own most of the world’s wealth, control most of its governments, and are in charge of nearly all of its law-enforcement. Really, who is oppressing us? Answer: no-f***ing-body is oppressing us. The only people who think we need such a “movement” are pathetic, useless, violent, stupid, hateful, misogynistic people who can’t even be called “motherf***ers”, because no woman in the world would willingly f*** them."

[nomorenomore08]

131. And if we are oppressed, it's by other men, not women.

In a way, the most tragic aspect of the MRA phenomenon is that they don't see how feminist ideas are potentially liberating for men as well.

[riqster]

154. Very true!

One of the great joys in my life has been all of the strong people I have been surrounded by. They lighten my load.

[Comrade Grumpy]

64. MRA seems like a sad fringe. Never heard the term except here on DU.

From what I've bothered to read of their writings, which is not much, they seem to have problems adjusting to the modern world. I suspect it's like a half dozen guys posting from their respective mothers' basements.

I put them right up there with lesbian separatists on my list of things I don't worry about very much.

[seabeyond]

67. they are in our police force. they are in our govt telling us to put an aspirin between our knees.

they are our judges saying a 13 yr old girl is mentally as mature as a 40 something yr old man, cause he has a dick and gets distracted. they are in our religion. they are all over, if one chooses to look. and listen.

[redqueen]

68. Lesbian separstists aren't a threat to men. MRA's, on the other hand...

http://www.salon.com/2009/11/05/mens_rights/
http://www.bostonmagazine.com/2012/08/angry-men-feminist-agenda/

Women ignore them at their own peril.
You have the luxury of not having to care.

[xmas74]

66. I feel sick.

Just seeing this makes me want to bathe in Clorox.

[Zorra]

69. No. Arrogant, authoritarian conservative males have been fucking up the world since the dawn of

human existence, and they are doing it at a new record pace with each passing day.

Everyone should be fighting these mean, nasty, control freak misogynist losers, not just feminists.

[nomorenomore08]

132. + a bazillion

[Prophet 451]

70. I sort-of agree with the third one

But only "sort-of". Without for a second wishing to delegitimise the plight of female victims, male culture (possibly western male culture) has a real problem with teh acceptance of violence as a solution to personal difficulties, both violence directed toward women but also violence directed toward men. The macho bullshit that says that it's acceptable to resolve problems with a fist, no matter who it's aimed at, needs to end (and I say that as someone who participated in boxing and wrestling).

[ismnotwasm]

74. There are groups for men that promote a healthy masculinity

(Putting "gender"debates aside for a moment) especially for our youth. They do this without pulling women or feminists down, but by education and introspection as well as mutual support. They examine male culture and where reliance on violence as a solution is damaging. Most of these groups are secular.

The best known, but not the only one is
http://www.mencanstoprape.org
( thus the poster that is shown making fun this group in the OP)


It's evolved into quite a powerful and positive movement

[Prophet 451]

82. Thank you

I'm on my way to bed after a 24-hour stint right now (damn assignments) but I'll check on that later. And nice to see it's secular too.

[seabeyond]

78. as a feminist mother of two boys, i absolutely embraced and embrace still

the end of male violence in males.

so. i would be a woman, raising two boys, that have adamantly, as a feminist fought for the authentic men my boys can be. at all cost. at all turns. so.... i suggest that feminists are much more a supporter and activist in this battle, than a lot of men.

interesting twist though.

kinda like i feel an altruistic relationship is one of selfishness.

i want the best for hubby. he wants the best for me. ultimate in selfish on my part. because i get the best.

[Prophet 451]

81. Sadly, I agree with that

Perhaps because of your position as outside masculine culture, feminists are often able to see the unhealthy aspects of it much more clearly than we are.

[TNNurse]

71. My Senator

Lamar Alexander ( I live in his hometown), is worried that paying women equally for the same work, might hurt men. Bless their little privileged hearts, they are delusional, paranoid and unfortunately powerful.

[DrewFlorida]

77. While I fight for equality for all...

and will always continue to fight for women's rights, there is more to the story. Often men are deprived of their rights by women who are abusive and, by laws that allow men to be arrested in domestic disturbances simply by the word of the woman. I have been a victim of false arrest in this very way. In a situation which my ex-wife was aggressive toward me in a drunken rage, her effort to thwart my child visitation rights. I was arrested because she asserted that I hit her, when in fact she viciously attacked me both verbally and physically, this was nothing new for her and I pushed her away in order to avoid injury. After I left she called the police and made a complaint, the police never asked for my side of the story, they just came to mt house and arrested me and took my children back to their drunken mother. Of course a short time later the state prosecutor dropped the charges because she was the first one to actually read the police report which stated that the mother had been drunk and in a rage, even at the officers.

I and my children were victims of a law priority which sided with women against men, that's just one example, the worst of my experience, but by no means the only one.

With all of that said, abuse toward men and laws that allow it are not an excuse to ignore the very serious problem of a patriarchal society which minimizes women's choices, chances and safety.


Please just keep in mind when discussing these issues, there are two valid sides to this issue!

[AverageJoe90]

124. That may sometimes be true.

And when it does happen to men, it ought to be condemned as well.

The sad truth is, however, the large majority of MRAs don't seem to truly care about other men or boys at all; they just want to use this stuff to shit on women.

(P.S.; I'm sorry you had to go thru that ordeal. I hope you & your kids are doing okay now, though.)

[DrewFlorida]

142. Yes I understand the sad truth, as I stated, I simply ask that people understand both sides.

My children are fine now, they are grown men who respect women, and have stable loving relationships, despite their man hating alcoholic mother. They learned to understand the entire problem, not just their experience. Unfortunately, relationship disfunction, respect for other people regardless of gender is not something most people are taught, and many people go through life perpetuating the hateful examples they witnessed as children.

Keep up the good fight for compassion and respect for all people equally, regardless of gender, sexuality, ethnicity, etc etc.

[nomorenomore08]

133. Except the idea that men are naturally more violent doesn't come from feminism.

Rather, it comes from "traditional" (i.e. patriarchal) notions of masculinity. So even at best, MRA's are fighting the wrong battle.

[DrewFlorida]

145. Men are not NATURALLY more violent, they may have more ability to act on their violent feelings...

due to having a more muscular physical make up. They also have been conditioned to act on their angry feelings and ignore their other feelings. There are many many examples of violent women, who don't have the strength to carry out their aggression.
Let's not muddy the waters of this subject by overstating what is and isn't.

[nomorenomore08]

148. I was talking about assumptions, not actualities.

And it's the assumption (based in essentially patriarchal notions) that men are naturally more violent, that largely leads to the unjust scenarios you've described. So MRA's are essentially shooting themselves in the foot when they argue in favor of "traditional" masculinity.

[DrewFlorida]

160. I see, I guess I just didn't understand what you were trying to say.

[lumberjack_jeff]

202. Sure it does. Try posting the data on reciprocal IPV and see who objects.

It's become something of a dog whistle.

[nomorenomore08]

203. Women are still much more likely to be seriously injured or killed by an intimate partner.

But that doesn't mean "masculine" = "violent" is an inherent or insoluble concept.

[lumberjack_jeff]

208. That part is uncontroversial.

Last edited Tue Apr 15, 2014, 12:45 AM - Edit history (2)

It gets controversial when you show that women in non-reciprocally violent relationships are more than twice as likely to use violence on their partner than the reverse.

It's feminists who argue that this can't possibly be true, because of course, "masculine" = "violent" is an inherent and insoluble concept.

[nomorenomore08]

212. Fair enough. I'm just not sure you're putting blame in the right place. n/t

[Nye Bevan]

83. "Don't be that girl"? Really?

What right do these people have to tell women what profession to choose?

[BainsBane]

115. It's not about a profession

They are talking about what they insist are false rape allegations, that women who charge rape simply regret having sex.

[Maedhros]

89. Nope. Never wondered.

Feminists make a pretty solid argument.

[laundry_queen]

97. You don't need to announce it in every thread you trash, FYI. It's not a requirement and

the rest of us don't give a shit. It's starting to look a lot like spam or an attempt to grab some attention.

[Skittles]

113. LOL

pitiful

[pintobean]

114. I think it's an ismism.

[William769]

105. kick & recommended.

[davidn3600]

112. MRAs really got going with issues involving family law...that is how it started

The whole false rape allegation stuff is an absurd tangent they got going on. But a lot of these guys think the ex-wife is trying to take the kids and money away from the husband. And that's who is most vulnerable to the messages these groups put out.

And I have to admit, there are legitimate issues there. I've seen with my own eyes the court give custody to a mother who is a drug addict and the father's life is clean. That has happened and it is not uncommon. I've seen it happen. I've seen the lawyers for women use the kids as a bargaining chip because they know they have custody as their ace in the hole.

And feminists resist reform of these laws because they feel it would result in putting more women in poverty (which it very well might). So it gives the indication that feminists advocate for women more than they advocate for equality. That little discrepancy right there is where the MRAs slip in and try to cause a division. It is a point where feminism has a weakness. One of the MRA's big mantras is that feminists will only favor equality in areas where it benefits women.

[AverageJoe90]

125. There may be some truth but honestly, I think you've overstated it to a good degree.

Don't get me wrong, Dave, this isn't a slam on you. Not at all. And there are a few more radical feminists who really do ignore men's issues. Many of us don't, however, and I think you'll find that most of us who don't do have an issue with those who DO ignore men's problems.

[DonCoquixote]

126. I know that any time a man speaks on this

He can get accused of being a "white knight",
as opposed to someone who realizes that if people get to say (insert bad word for females) they will say (bad word for minorities or underclass), or that much of the same whining comes from the same little boys that whine about minorities.

Well, as a man, let me address this to the MRA's, the same people that threatened to "straighten me out" last time.

If your male identity is threatened by a strong woman, you are not a strong man, or even much of a man, period.

As a man, I will,without mercy, point out that as much as you claim to speak for us, you do NOT.

And I will point out that for all your he-man woman haters club talk, you are the ones whining.

And that for all your talk of your rights being taken away, women are still the ones getting, beaten, raped, starved, in larger amounts in the Us, and in the World,

and lastly, I will point out that if you did not take the bait that is dangled before you might team up with the woman to deal with the rich creeps that are exploiting everyone. You did not lose your job because women started working, you lost it because asshole decided you became an expendable asset.

And rather than stop being ax expendable asset to the assholes, you chose to become an asshole, and you show it by using the c word, and accusing every rape victim of deserving it. Meanwhile, the same he men rich boys are the ones planning to rape your sons brothers, father and mothers, out of every penny you have, and make you thank them for it!

[CFLDem]

137. Amen

Thank you for this!

[Raksha]

158. Well said!

[Harmony Blue]

162. By posting this you are reinforcing what the MRA's are talking about

that is feminists flip the script going from empowered woman to seeking out attention and validation because you feel threatened.

There are no MRA's on DU that I know of. If there is please provide a link or else we can simply ignore the quarterly outrage.

[seabeyond]

167. really? women should never talk about anything cause that makes them attention seekers? brilliant.

[Bonobo]

177. No, but scouring the internet for a photo that makes you personally mad and then raising that

to the level of a macro social issue is a bit much, no?

[seabeyond]

179. i did nothing. you will have to ask BB the effort she went to create the OP. scouring? lol.

this is a womens issue. the hate generated by men, toward women, that is making a lot of womens lives hell. it is in all facits of our society. it is in our govt, justice system, academics, criminal system. you feel it is a "bit much" women addressing this issue. fine. your right. other than that... meh, i am probably just one of the 4 or 5 psychotics that is ALL of the problems here on du. a bit much?

[CFLDem]

183. I'm sorry you can't appreciate the seriousness of rape culture

and the MRA morans who tirelessly promote it.

[Bonobo]

186. MRA morons who promote rape culture?

I can't appreciate it?

Nice way to try to portray who I am and what I think. You are wrong but don't let that stop you.

[CFLDem]

187. It certainly doesn't stop you from posting MRA talking points. nt

[DonCoquixote]

211. If the photos do not mean so much

Why do the MRAs put out so many of them. Do you think they are just playing video games, or attempting to influence young men and intimidate young women? Using the C word is not exactly a love letter.

[CFLDem]

184. I know, Sea!

Rich, ain't it?

[seabeyond]

185. ok cfl....

you are a mind blower. you really are. you are an interesting man.

[TransitJohn]

182. Yeah, that shit's posted in DU:GD 24/7.

Way to fight back.

[NickB79]

188. I can agree with the second-to-last one

Because I'd hope no one would hate and fear all men in general, even if they've been hurt by a few asshole men in particular.

But then again, I don't think I've ever encountered a "man-hating feminist" either, so it's a horseshit argument to play the persecution card in that fashion.

[nomorenomore08]

204. I don't doubt that genuine "man-haters" exist, but they don't have enough power to really threaten

anybody or anything. And mainstream feminism seems to have little use for them, as it should be.

[dionysus]

190. yeah, that's disgusting shit. but keep in mind, there's plenty of dudes who'd gladly get their asses

kicked standing up for women, if it came to it. (or it could be just me, but I doubt it....)

[chrisa]

192. Rise brothers! We will defeat teh evil Feminists that want rights and stuff!1!!!1

Bwahahaha! What a bunch of bullshit. I can't believe these losers actually do this in real life.

But what do I know? I'm an eeevil mangina! Oooooo!