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So the Jewish leaders in Ukraine have called the leaflet a hoax (Original Post) malaise Apr 2014 OP
ABC radio news is pushing this story this morning...without a mention of Purveyor Apr 2014 #1
I knew you'd be here.. PCIntern Apr 2014 #57
I'm always 'here'... Purveyor Apr 2014 #109
They called it a "provocation." Igel Apr 2014 #2
It's both n/t malaise Apr 2014 #4
Did you get the part about provocation? nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #3
I'm not sure why you assume people don't know the history of that area polly7 Apr 2014 #6
Because the fixation on a single reason for this tells me people do not nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #9
It's not fixation at all. polly7 Apr 2014 #10
Yup, we know the US is evil and behind all the evil in the world nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #13
Could you please try to express yourself, sans condescension? 1000words Apr 2014 #16
Put me on ignore, please. nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #18
How clear are one's thoughts while seething in anger? 1000words Apr 2014 #21
Whatever dude nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #23
I did no such thing. 1000words Apr 2014 #26
Do it permamently please nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #29
And here is the post nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #31
NO idea what you're going on about, re the US is evil regarding this polly7 Apr 2014 #17
I have seen this tied to the CIA nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #20
Which is exactly why it's important to get the truth. polly7 Apr 2014 #24
This is not the US ok nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #45
Well certainly no-one else here is laughing or finding any of this funny, polly7 Apr 2014 #49
I have no idea nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #51
You can speculate, and that's fine polly7 Apr 2014 #58
So when I point out that there is history here nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #59
No, speculation as to 'what will happen if the worst comes to pass'. polly7 Apr 2014 #64
As I said, McCain runs foreign policy is fine nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #65
I have NO idea on what exactly I don't see eye to eye with you on. polly7 Apr 2014 #66
You are claiming I am speculating by drawing from that long nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #67
No, I just told you, above, what you were speculating on: polly7 Apr 2014 #68
You are right I have no idea of worst case scenarios nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #70
Again, I understand that people who've been persecuted in that area polly7 Apr 2014 #73
Again, given the history nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #74
You're completely intentionally misinterpreting what I've said. polly7 Apr 2014 #77
Ok, whatever nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #79
I didn't call you any names. nt. polly7 Apr 2014 #80
have a good day nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #81
No examples of those names? polly7 Apr 2014 #82
Yeah I have lived and learn nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #84
Haven't most of us. polly7 Apr 2014 #93
I am not twisting or dismissing anything nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #97
No worries. polly7 Apr 2014 #98
My apologies nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #99
Polly didn't say anything about the US, CIA, PNAC, etc. tammywammy Apr 2014 #19
We don't know. Western europe's media goes on also with the story as not beeing a "hoax" mylye2222 Apr 2014 #5
I saw the hoax news on M$NBComcast malaise Apr 2014 #7
careful- Tons of propaganda in media currently - Link to Time mag -Hoax or extortion newthinking Apr 2014 #11
Was this a hoax btw? sabrina 1 Apr 2014 #14
Hardly malaise Apr 2014 #27
Haaretz - "Flier calling on Donetsk Jews to register now widely seen as fake" Catherina Apr 2014 #62
Kerry's comments in context karynnj Apr 2014 #90
The forces inspired by Putin in both Russia and Ukraine are bigoted madmen. DemocraticWing Apr 2014 #8
The Hoax benefits Kiev, not the East or Putin newthinking Apr 2014 #12
What do you think of the Kiev Government Neo Nazi party? See my post above for sabrina 1 Apr 2014 #15
No hoax at all. MohRokTah Apr 2014 #22
+1, 000, 000 janlyn Apr 2014 #25
Is that not true for most citizens in Ukraine? malaise Apr 2014 #28
They are not under the threat of becoming the scapegoats for everything that happens. MohRokTah Apr 2014 #30
And Gays, see the current Ukraine's neo-nazi party's history on gays. sabrina 1 Apr 2014 #43
Yellow Stars of David and Pink Triangles MohRokTah Apr 2014 #44
also, the disabled, and millions of Polish and Soviet civilians. Horrific. nt. polly7 Apr 2014 #46
And Gypyes are still scapegoats in France. mylye2222 Apr 2014 #48
Europe perhaps is seething on the brink of something nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #52
Direct and EXPECTED consequence of economic disease. mylye2222 Apr 2014 #54
I know, but PNAC and the IMF And World Bank nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #55
Nadin, most of us know all this, I'm sorry you don't realize that. We KNOW that the IMF/World sabrina 1 Apr 2014 #75
Sabrina I have been called all kinds of names nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #76
Yes, and I and others here have defended against those vicious attacks and will most likely sabrina 1 Apr 2014 #85
As I said, I am not going to go down that path nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #86
Who said anything about the Bildebergers? Did you mean that comment for someone else? sabrina 1 Apr 2014 #89
I look at the facts too nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #101
Well, I agree with you. The PNAC is only one element and maybe if some of them were not blathering sabrina 1 Apr 2014 #104
I keep going back to what an instructor who once was in the arena told us many years ago nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #108
First, thank you for this excellent post and for taking the time to respond to my comment. sabrina 1 Apr 2014 #110
No I do not believe Putin nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #111
I really wonder personnaly if the final goal of EU austeritylovers leaders mylye2222 Apr 2014 #87
It's hard to say, although they do seem to push it and use it. I doubt they care much sabrina 1 Apr 2014 #92
And another grim fact is that those EU commisional officials ar NOT elected. mylye2222 Apr 2014 #96
Which goes back to the World Economic Wall St crash, after which Europe sabrina 1 Apr 2014 #72
You forgot communists, socialists and unionists...... socialist_n_TN Apr 2014 #113
Plesae do educatate yourself on the history of antisemitism nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #33
Thanks for the history reminding. mylye2222 Apr 2014 #34
Oh you welcome, I am just damned tired of this crap nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #37
Me too. Its just meaningless except giving food to the hatredmongers. mylye2222 Apr 2014 #39
Ill bring everyone together. mylye2222 Apr 2014 #40
The problem is that none is being nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #42
7 million Ukranians died under Stalin Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin Apr 2014 #38
And the Tsar evicted people to the East and was responsible for one of the nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #41
Never said it did. Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin Apr 2014 #112
That's good news Marrah_G Apr 2014 #32
They also called it a provocation nadinbrzezinski Apr 2014 #35
"Forgery" and "Hoax" are not synonyms. cthulu2016 Apr 2014 #36
I find it odd that people are having such difficulties talking about this. Brickbat Apr 2014 #47
A topic that solicits a reflexive emotional reaction. 1000words Apr 2014 #50
Exactly! n/t sabrina 1 Apr 2014 #100
Precisely n/t malaise Apr 2014 #53
Very good post. nt Democracyinkind Apr 2014 #61
It is still terrorism against jewish people. applegrove Apr 2014 #56
It's 1 of at least 3 similar hoaxes Catherina Apr 2014 #60
Jews in east Ukraine worried after anti-Semitic tract Bosonic Apr 2014 #63
And yet the world media ran with it without considering its origin. progressivebydesign Apr 2014 #69
The media is one thing but the Secretary of State malaise Apr 2014 #71
I think Kerry's comments are puzzling 1000words Apr 2014 #78
I seconds you! mylye2222 Apr 2014 #83
No he is not naive and his comments were completely taken out of context karynnj Apr 2014 #103
Thank you 1000words Apr 2014 #105
Read Kerry's full remarks - they are general and they are good in context. karynnj Apr 2014 #88
So the media misrepresented his comments malaise Apr 2014 #91
They took a sentence or two out of context karynnj Apr 2014 #94
Yes, putting sentences out of context! as always. mylye2222 Apr 2014 #95
Not to mention, if and when it is disputed - they then say he misspoke karynnj Apr 2014 #102
I'd call it an act of terrorism Crunchy Frog Apr 2014 #106
Ukraine's Chief Rabbi: "Antisemitic flyer 'by Donetsk People's Republic' in Ukraine a hoax" Catherina Apr 2014 #107
 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
3. Did you get the part about provocation?
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 02:35 PM
Apr 2014

i recommend again, you read a tad of local history. It might make sense then why the community is doing what they are doing.

By the way, trash thread is next.

polly7

(20,582 posts)
6. I'm not sure why you assume people don't know the history of that area
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 02:43 PM
Apr 2014

or why news and commentary on important current events in Ukraine is unreasonable.

I'm disgusted that 'anyone' would use the genuine fear of a group of people to promote their cause, isn't it important to know exactly who is doing it?

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
9. Because the fixation on a single reason for this tells me people do not
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 02:45 PM
Apr 2014

that is why.

And I am damned tired of it.

Have a good day.

polly7

(20,582 posts)
10. It's not fixation at all.
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 02:53 PM
Apr 2014

It's trying to get at the truth.

Many of us lost family members fighting Hitler's atrocities - my elderly mum still cries thinking of her favourite young uncles lost, one who died in a German prisoner of war camp - I find it odd that you continually state people here don't care about what Jews, homosexuals, Roma, the disabled, and millions of others went through. Of course we care. Getting at the truth has nothing to do with discounting the history of anyone.

You have a good day also.

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
13. Yup, we know the US is evil and behind all the evil in the world
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 02:58 PM
Apr 2014

I got it.

And in this case, that does not apply, sorry.

As to your grandmother, fifty plus of my relatives went up a stack in Treblinka. My grandmother is buried in a field new Knyshin, her grave received finally a marker in 1975. So is my aunt.

And this, this crap, has ancient roots, that have NOTHING to do with CIA, PNAC, or for that matter the United States of America.

Here, a very short lesson, trust me, as barebones as it comes.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024839785

I am pretty much done, seriously.

And if people die, I expect the victims to be blamed once again. (As to the rest of the minorities, the hate goes back almost as long)

polly7

(20,582 posts)
17. NO idea what you're going on about, re the US is evil regarding this
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 03:02 PM
Apr 2014

disgusting flier.

I commented on your assertion that people here don't care, when obviously, that's untrue. Caring has nothing to do with trying to get at the truth of something that could possibly light up a horrible situation and cause suffering and death over and above what's already happened.

No-one has blamed the victim here whatsoever, that I've seen. Most have expressed disgust and fear over victimizing them once again.

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
20. I have seen this tied to the CIA
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 03:05 PM
Apr 2014

and the US.

Becuase Nuland or something

Cause we all know we only need to hear what McCain has to say, and fully ignore Putin. So yes, there has been plenty of that.

People are ignoring a very long history, and I cannot fight confirmation bias, so if you do not mind, I am taking out the trash now. And trashing these threads, and trying to stay out of them.

polly7

(20,582 posts)
24. Which is exactly why it's important to get the truth.
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 03:07 PM
Apr 2014

Wars are started by things such as this flyer, remember Powell at the UN?

People here aren't 'forgetting' anything, we're just trying to understand, as we tried with Iraq, Libya and everywhere else. What is happening now could potentially blow up an already bad situation into something even worse, for everyone in the area. We're not hating on you. We're trying to get at the truth of who is doing it, and why. I don't understand seething anger for this.

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
45. This is not the US ok
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 03:53 PM
Apr 2014

and McCain, garble arble had none to do with this either. Of course that is unless we are willing to accept that McCain runs foreign policy at the same time that he does not.

Of course local history has none to do with this either, it seems.

But do read into the Tsarist Secret Police, because really old techniques are new again. Oh and the community is trying hard to keep calm and react in a way that will not provoke a response. Ears highly attuned to that. And That is all there is to say about that.

And no, people are not trying to understand. People are going after confirmation bias, cause we all know Putin is not as bad, never has been as bad, as the PNAC boys. In Iraq that fit like a glove, here, it's not even a square peg into a round hole.

We are talking light years distance.

And the West intervene in Eastern Europe for a Jewish community... now that is the height of comedy. Excuse me while I roll on the ground in laughter.

polly7

(20,582 posts)
49. Well certainly no-one else here is laughing or finding any of this funny,
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 04:00 PM
Apr 2014

including me. You can put me on ignore now too ... when you go from seething rage to ROL laughter without trying to understand a single thing I've said - better do it, because I don't believe you care at all about anyone besides those you're (falsely) claiming people here are victimizing.

You have no idea who started this disgusting flier, yet you're accusing those of us for wanting to find out of horrible things. Were you this disgusted for questioning yellow-cake and mushroom clouds? - and no, I'm not blaming the US - just some good examples of propaganda that kills millions.

garble arble.

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
51. I have no idea
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 04:06 PM
Apr 2014

but I have a suspicion of what is going on.

And yes, there will be NO WESTERN INTERVENTION if the worst happens and there is a progrom or worst. NONE will risk a full nuclear exchange. It is that simple.

And I am not accusing anybody, just finding what people are saying here to be a tad ignorant of facts on the ground. I don't have the only answer, but I have tried repeatedly to point out this has LLLLLOOOOONNNNNGGGGG roots in history.

And I will not put you on ignore, you have not claimed that Jews are not a people in a thread, and then said you did not.

polly7

(20,582 posts)
58. You can speculate, and that's fine
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 04:15 PM
Apr 2014

but claiming others are a tad ignorant of facts on the ground for doing the same, is insulting - I think most here try very hard to understand. Being accused of horrible things for it doesn't help much in that regard. You have no idea what will happen if things come to the worst. Once again, wanting to understand does not equal discounting the history of anyone in that area.

And I would never claim that anyone was not a people.

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
59. So when I point out that there is history here
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 04:20 PM
Apr 2014

that is speculation. GOT IT.

But when people say McCain is running US Foreign Policy, it is not. And yes people have implied that.

Look, I find the whole situation here to lack any nuance, and if you find that insulting, FINE, feel insulted.

I will carry it a step further, Americans are provincial, ignorant of their own history and always looking for a simple answer. It is a cultural trait.

There are many forces here that are at work. MANY. And there is far more to this than PNAC, and McCain shooting his mouth in Kiev. (Brennan matters a lot more, since he works for the Administration)

So if you do not mind, I really do not believe people are looking for understanding here. People are looking for confirmation. It is human nature, to look for simple answers, when this is as complex as it gets. Add to that a few nuclear warheads (yes they are part of the calculation) and truth be told, unless the US is willing to go to Total War, the hands of the US are pretty much tied up.

That is the reality.

And I expect Putin to continue this aggressive posture. He has said such in many of his statements. But, but, but PNAC and McCain...

polly7

(20,582 posts)
64. No, speculation as to 'what will happen if the worst comes to pass'.
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 04:26 PM
Apr 2014

Pointing out history isn't speculation - claiming you know who will and won't get involved if this all blows up, is.

I completely understand the fear people in the area must feel right now, because I do know the history. I know there are many forces at work.

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
65. As I said, McCain runs foreign policy is fine
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 04:32 PM
Apr 2014

but trying to point complexity is not.

As to what is happening here. yes, this has very long echoes... and the Jewish Community trying to publicly say it is a hoax is part of that. American Jews really have no idea of the caring and feeding of local governments. We might have to develop those survival skills in the future, but for the moment, no we don't.

This might make it clear, or not

"This directly recalls Nazi tactics, like the registration of Jews and the confiscation of their property, and it strikes a very deep cord with everyone in the Jewish community," said Andrew Srulevitch, director of European affairs for the U.S.-based Anti-Defamation League.

"This is a politically manipulative use of anti-Semitism and the victims of this are the Jewish people because of the intimidation they feel as a result of it," he told FoxNews.com. "We condemn this anti-Semitism for its content, regardless of the source and motive behind it."

"The language obviously is alarmingly reminiscent of the language the Nazis used," added Sara Bloomfield, director of the United States Holocaust Museum in Washington, D.C. "It's very deliberately provocative and outrageous."



http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/04/18/us-jewish-leaders-deeply-troubled-by-anti-semitic-pamphlets-in-ukraine/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+foxnews%2Fnational+(Internal+-+US+Latest+-+Text)

Sorry for the fox news link, but clocks stuck and right twice a day and all that.

For the record, early orders by the Nazis were also called what they were not in public and some Jewish leaders refused to believe it could be that bad.

So call it jumping the gun. I am not making that mistake again, and I know others are not. You are free to do so.

But you know what? We will not see eye to eye on this... ever, I suspect.


polly7

(20,582 posts)
66. I have NO idea on what exactly I don't see eye to eye with you on.
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 04:34 PM
Apr 2014

Explain.

I just said I understand why Jews and others who've been persecuted in the area are afraid and concerned.

What exactly am I disagreeing with you on?

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
67. You are claiming I am speculating by drawing from that long
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 04:35 PM
Apr 2014

line of history.

Fine, I am speculating.

polly7

(20,582 posts)
68. No, I just told you, above, what you were speculating on:
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 04:41 PM
Apr 2014

who will not get involved, if worse comes to worse. I've told you that twice now. You have no way of knowing what will happen in a worst case scenario, as don't I. But learning about what's happening there day to day and who's doing it sure does help in that regard, doesn't it??

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
70. You are right I have no idea of worst case scenarios
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 04:44 PM
Apr 2014

I wish my family had drawn that conclusion in oh 1938 and left the Shtetl.

I would not be here either, but I wish they had done that.

And what is happening right now has those long echoes.

So I will be approaching the JCC and ask if they are passing the hat already. After all the history of the region gives me an all but warm feeling. Feel free and call that speculation.

polly7

(20,582 posts)
73. Again, I understand that people who've been persecuted in that area
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 04:46 PM
Apr 2014

must feel terrible fear right now.

But that has nothing to do with any certainty of anything in a worst case scenario.

Don't twist what I'm saying anymore, I'm tired of it.

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
74. Again, given the history
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 04:52 PM
Apr 2014

none of us can discount that as a possibility. NONE, who have any common sense can discount it.

And that is the truth. None of us can. That was the attitude taken in the 1930s, partly becuase people had no place to evacuate for the most part. And people did not want to believe it either. Once we had evidence that a Holocaust was under way, our own government refused to let the American people know, and turned back ships knowing what was happening. (To be fair the last to be turned back was before the war actually started)

So sorry if I refuse to take that attitude. I do not take it for any potential or real genocide, but this one, I am not going to take that attitude either. And I have worked with victims of far more recent genocides.

Never again means something,

As I said, we will not see eye to eye.

polly7

(20,582 posts)
77. You're completely intentionally misinterpreting what I've said.
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 05:05 PM
Apr 2014

You have no interest in talking about any of this in good faith. It's been a slice, nadin. (actually a bit sad here, but you obviously don't care).

My gov't stepped in a week after Britain in 1939, my first great uncle killed was one of the first lot sent over in Jan., 1940. Insult and demean people who've told you over and over we understand - not sure what attitude you're saying I want you to take, but it's bullshit.

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
79. Ok, whatever
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 05:07 PM
Apr 2014

I think it is a time to call it a day. We will not see eye to eye, like ever,

Have an excellent day. I am done wasting my time, and being called names.

And no, you are not going on ignore

polly7

(20,582 posts)
82. No examples of those names?
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 05:11 PM
Apr 2014

I've always supported you, on the board and off. It's disappointing that you're doing this, but live and learn!

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
84. Yeah I have lived and learn
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 05:13 PM
Apr 2014

I have and that is all I will say at this point.

And I think what I have learned is that when things are really down, trust my own people and on this one, my gut

polly7

(20,582 posts)
93. Haven't most of us.
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 05:28 PM
Apr 2014

I can state until I'm blue in the face that I have a good understanding of what your people are feeling and you can ignore that until the cows come home ... it still has nothing to do with wanting to understand the situation as it is now.

(Again, no idea why you're being so dismissive towards me and twisting my words, but give yourself a big pat on the back, I have a feeling you're enjoying it.)

Wow. http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024840334#post4 Now I KNOW you're enjoying it. Sad.

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
97. I am not twisting or dismissing anything
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 05:49 PM
Apr 2014

have a good day.

And if you think I am, my apologies. Again, have a good day.

polly7

(20,582 posts)
98. No worries.
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 05:50 PM
Apr 2014

Last edited Fri Apr 18, 2014, 07:11 PM - Edit history (1)

I edited this, my apologies ... it's ok not to agree, and I do realize how deeply you feel about this. I think we do see at least one thing eye to eye, we don't want to see it get any worse than it already is - and that's enough.

tammywammy

(26,582 posts)
19. Polly didn't say anything about the US, CIA, PNAC, etc.
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 03:03 PM
Apr 2014

I don't quite understand why you're going off on her. You are not the only one that knows the history of the area.

Wanting to understand who and why something happened isn't denying history.

 

mylye2222

(2,992 posts)
5. We don't know. Western europe's media goes on also with the story as not beeing a "hoax"
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 02:40 PM
Apr 2014

the "hoax" version comes mostly from RT, and fellow pro-Russia online newspapers.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
14. Was this a hoax btw?
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 03:00 PM
Apr 2014


That's a photo of two US Senators meeting with the leader of the far right wing Ukraine Svobodo Party in December of last year.

John McCain Meets Oleh Tyahnybok in Ukraine

Nowadays Svoboda (which means freedom in Ukrainian) is one of those reconstructed modern European far right parties — it is aligned with the British National Party and the French National Front, for example — and it has gained some kind of electoral legitimacy, winning 10 percent of the seats in Ukraine's parliament in 2010.

However, the party's past is seriously murky. When it was founded in 1995, the party called itself the Social-National Party of Ukraine (SNPU), and it had a swastika-like logo.

.....

As Max Fisher of the Washington Post has noted, the situation in Ukraine is amplified by numerous ethnic and linguistic issues that tie into a not-always-pretty history of nationalism and subjugation. In the past, McCain has sometimes revealed a simplistic, Cold War viewpoint of Russia. You have to wonder if, by going to Ukraine and standing on stage with a man accused of being an anti-Semitic neo-Nazi, he may have shown that trait again.


McCain has been silent on this association with the 'former' neo nazi party who went to drive out the elected government and are now part of Kiev's 'power structure' which WE are supporting.

This is no hoax, these despicable people are now part of our 'allies' in Ukraine's 'new' government.

I would be far more concerned about this element receiving support from our government than about some leaflets whose origin is more than questionable in the 'fog of war' we are currently engaged in.

malaise

(267,808 posts)
27. Hardly
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 03:11 PM
Apr 2014

McCain has associated with some really seedy figures across the globe and there are many photos, but somehow he always gets a pass...but not from me.

I know what I posted when I said neo-fascists had taken over Kiev. That's a fact.

Catherina

(35,568 posts)
62. Haaretz - "Flier calling on Donetsk Jews to register now widely seen as fake"
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 04:24 PM
Apr 2014

"Flier calling on Donetsk Jews to register now widely seen as fake"

Haaretz - Flier calling on Donetsk Jews to register now widely seen as fake

The pro-Russian separatist leader of Donetsk, whose alleged signature is on the now notorious fliers calling on the eastern Ukrainian city's Jews to register on pain of deportation, said the documents were fakes, the ThinkProgress website reported Thursday.

“Some idiots yesterday were giving out these fliers in targeted areas,” said Denis Pushlin, head of the self-proclaimed People's Republic of Donetsk, whose forces have taken over Ukrainian government buildings in the city. Pushlin said he didn't sign the documents and the People's Republic, whose name is stamped on the fliers, didn't produce them.

Meanwhile, the Anti-Defamation League said it was "skeptical about the … authenticity" of the fliers, which have been widely reported and accepted as authentic, including by U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry, who denounced them as "grotesque."

Also, Julia Ioffe, who covers Russia for The New Republic, wrote: "The Donetsk Jewish community dismissed as 'a provocation,' which it clearly is. 'It's an obvious provocation designed to get this exact response, going all the way up to Kerry,' says Fyodr Lukyanov, editor of Russia in Global Affairs. 'I have no doubt that there is a sizeable community of anti-Semites on both sides of the barricades, but for one of them to do something this stupid — this is done to compromise the pro-Russian groups in the east.'"

http://www.haaretz.com/news/world/.premium-1.586174

karynnj

(59,474 posts)
90. Kerry's comments in context
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 05:23 PM
Apr 2014

However, here is what Kerry actually said as given in the FULL TEXT of the remarks:


The parties agreed today that all sides must refrain from the use of violence, intimidation, or provocative actions. And we strongly condemned and rejected all expressions of extremism, racism, and religious intolerance, including anti-Semitism.

Let me say a quick word about that. Just in the last couple of days, notices were sent to Jews in one city indicating that they had to identify themselves as Jews. And obviously, the accompanying threat implied is – or threatened – or suffer the consequences, one way or the other.

In the year 2014, after all of the miles traveled and all of the journey of history, this is not just intolerable; it’s grotesque. It is beyond unacceptable. And any of the people who engage in these kinds of activities, from whatever party or whatever ideology or whatever place they crawl out of, there is no place for that. And unanimously, every party today joined in this condemnation of that kind of behavior.

In addition, recently, the Ukrainian – the Russian Orthodox Church members in Ukraine were threatened that the Ukrainian Orthodox Church was somehow going to attack them in the course of the next days. That kind of behavior, that kind of threat, has no place. And all parties agreed that that kind of behavior is not just grotesque and unacceptable, but it will not stand the test of the direction that Ukraine wants to move in.


http://www.state.gov/secretary/remarks/2014/04/224947.htm

Note that Kerry is condemning ALL attacks - Note that speaking of Russian Orthodox Church members being threatened that the Ukrainian church would attack them that he uses the same words "grotesque and unacceptable". In both cases, he does not state who has made the threats - just that they have been made and used to intimidate.

Don't you agree that given that BOTH sides have had a history of bad behavior towards minorities that it should be condemned? Not to mention, one of the demands of the Russians was that the rights of (at least some - ie the Russian speaking) minorities be protected. What Ukraine is agreeing to do is to enact the reforms that protect the minorities. From the reports of Lavrov's comments, he too spoke of ending these behaviors as well.

I am Jewish and my husband's maternal grandmother and grandfather immigrated from near Odessa. Years ago, in Hebrew school, my kids all learned of life in the shtetls and the pograms. That the Ukrainians have a very bad history is not questionable. The same though is true of the Russians.

At this point, especially if these steps laid out in Geneva are actually taken, it is possible - that like Germany - Ukraine may confront their past or at least begin to teach that these actions against any group - whether religious, ethnic or anything else are as Kerry said "grotesque".


There is a problem with this happening no matter who wrote or put out the fliers. Note that Kerry does not say they were sent out by the pro Russians or by anyone else. It is a problem that this is happening and happening on a regular basis.

DemocraticWing

(1,290 posts)
8. The forces inspired by Putin in both Russia and Ukraine are bigoted madmen.
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 02:44 PM
Apr 2014

The supposedly non-governmental thugs that violently oppress Russians are pretty much cut from the same cloth as the Russian tourists who just happen to be annexing Eastern Ukraine. I wouldn't put it past these people to pursue this anti-Semitic nonsense considering their evil persecution of LGBT people, which DUers and a bunch of other Americans have apparently decided isn't that big of a deal.

The apologists for Putin don't care how many people suffer and die because of him, since he took in Snowden and therefore must be the white knight of freedom and liberty.

newthinking

(3,982 posts)
12. The Hoax benefits Kiev, not the East or Putin
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 02:57 PM
Apr 2014

As long as we are discussing Russia's (definitely true) homophobia, let's not forget the current Kiev administration and many of the executive such as Svoboda members and Right Sector leaders (who mysteriously still have not been removed from their high positions in the administration)

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
15. What do you think of the Kiev Government Neo Nazi party? See my post above for
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 03:01 PM
Apr 2014

info on just who WE are supporting there?

And helping to put in power.

 

MohRokTah

(15,429 posts)
22. No hoax at all.
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 03:05 PM
Apr 2014

The attribbution as to who was responsible was a provocation, but there are real anti-semites on both sides of this conflict and JEws have historically been the scapegoats during instability.

So yeah, it's real. Jews are under threat in Ukraine regardless of which side in the current conflict they happen to be.

malaise

(267,808 posts)
28. Is that not true for most citizens in Ukraine?
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 03:15 PM
Apr 2014

Aren't they all under threat of severe economic hardship and the possibility of chaos and even civil war. I know the history but the Russians also know the history - they were victims of that fascist war.

 

MohRokTah

(15,429 posts)
30. They are not under the threat of becoming the scapegoats for everything that happens.
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 03:18 PM
Apr 2014

Historically, the Jews are always blamed for the bad things, especially in Eastern Europe.

Ever hear of pogroms? Have you read anything about the history of anti-semitism throughout Eastern Europe?

So it is different for the Jews than for all other Ukrainians.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
43. And Gays, see the current Ukraine's neo-nazi party's history on gays.
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 03:46 PM
Apr 2014

The ones the US govt is supporting. But then we supporting homophobic, anti-women dictatorships around the world.

And how about Muslims wrt to our foreign policies? They are not 'under threat' tragically many of them are no longer alive, many more maimed and tortured, with epithets approved here apparetly, spoken by our Generals, such as 'camel jockey's and ragheads etc flung around even on our MEDIA.

War threatens EVERYONE which is why it needs to STOP and for the past couple of decades the most threatening war machine to millions of innocent people in the ME and Africa and elsewhere has come straight from our own government. Therefore it is OUR responsibility to put an end to it, for the sake of innocent Muslims, Jews, Christians, see what happened to the centuries old Christian community in Iraq and now in Egypt eg.

WE need to end our brutal foreign policies, we are currently supporting the neo nazi party in Ukraine eg, giving them POWER they should absolutely not have.

War is evil, period. Poverty is also evil. Both generate all kinds of prejudices against 'others' and we have not learned a thing as right here in our own country, one side or the other continues to support 'their team' for political reasons rather than doing what is RIGHT.

And we're off to yet another conflict for whatever reason, then complain about the consequences as if we had nothing to do with them.

 

MohRokTah

(15,429 posts)
44. Yellow Stars of David and Pink Triangles
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 03:51 PM
Apr 2014

Throughout the concentration camps, both symbols were sewn into the prison clothes.

Gypsies become scapegoats, too. The Romany peoples know the experiences of the Jews.

 

mylye2222

(2,992 posts)
48. And Gypyes are still scapegoats in France.
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 03:59 PM
Apr 2014

Harrased by police. gen's accords. Their stuff destoyed. EU condemning France. Violation of ShenTheir slums razed. Families sleeping in the streets. Politician making statements like " finding a solution to the Gypsy question" It rings an obscur bell right?

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
52. Europe perhaps is seething on the brink of something
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 04:07 PM
Apr 2014

that we have not seen in seventy years.

But, I will be accused of not getting it by some.

 

mylye2222

(2,992 posts)
54. Direct and EXPECTED consequence of economic disease.
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 04:09 PM
Apr 2014

History repaeting itself..... When we would take lessens from the past!

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
55. I know, but PNAC and the IMF And World Bank
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 04:14 PM
Apr 2014

while they are part of the equation, it is not the ONLY answer... and I find it ironic that a lot of this can be traced back to German Chancellor Angella Merkel and her love of austerity. But she is not the only one involved in this mess.

There are many others... and many other international bodies... on top of IMF and World Bank... who run policies pushed by their host national governments, and have been having a fight for the last five years between the Keynes boys and the Austrian School of Economics adepts, and Chicago to add to the mix.

But McCain... there are days I just want to throw my arms up in frustration, despair and currently anger.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
75. Nadin, most of us know all this, I'm sorry you don't realize that. We KNOW that the IMF/World
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 04:58 PM
Apr 2014

Bank are merely tools, fronts for others behind the scenes.

We also know that there has been a battle going on for control of how these 'Tools' should work, and yes we know the role of the major powers in Europe, Merkel et al regarding their 'austerity' programs, disastrous programs for most of the people there. I have posted about it, AGAIN.

And many of us who didnt fall for the screaming Murdoch headlines re Strauss Kahn but looked deeper into WHAT we REALLY behind all of that re the IMF etc, KNOW why this was happening and SAID SO, but were called 'rapist lovers' etc for the effort, not that I care frankly considering the sources.

What you need to realize is that people are far, far more informed than you are giving them credit for. And that when they try to inject some facts into the rhetoric and talking points, they get attacked. You are not the only one and I would like to see you support some of those people more often as they have supported you.

This whole situation is not that difficult to figure out. And yes many of us DO know the history.

And should a war break out there, many of us have relatives and friends who would be directly affected.

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
76. Sabrina I have been called all kinds of names
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 05:01 PM
Apr 2014

so no, I will not go for a singular explanation that fits every crisis around the world, Sorry. I am no longer into that kind of conspiracy thinking

They are part of the equation, hardly the singular explanation.

But if you want to think so, go ahead, I ain't gonna stop you. I am just tired. PNAC did fit Iraq, like a glove, PNAC does not fit this at all. And that is the last on this. I think it is time for me to really walk away from this thread,

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
85. Yes, and I and others here have defended against those vicious attacks and will most likely
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 05:13 PM
Apr 2014

do so again, if we see them. I too have been called all sorts of names, it doesn't bother me that much as I said, considering the sources.

And no one here who I respect who are speaking this latest conflict we are involved in, has ever said there is 'singular explanation' that fits every crisis around the world. What there IS is a system in place now to MANIPULATE these crisis, generally not for the good of ANYONE, other than those who continue to profit from them.

See our alliances with some of the most seedy criminals in all of these crisis while hypocritically pretending to be opposed to them, all over the world wherever we think we have 'interests'. Handing over ANY country to the Austerity programs is GUARANTEED to create situations, see Greece eg, where neo nazis, homophobes, etc can thrive.

The rise of these extremists in Europe now is directly related to the poverty created by those who are pulling the strings, and we here will NOT stop trying to find out WHO THEY ARE and demanding that OUR country is not being used for purposes, as in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere that helps create MORE not LESS extremism and terror etc.

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
86. As I said, I am not going to go down that path
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 05:16 PM
Apr 2014

I don't believe in CTs.

And I will leave it at that. I really am not going to add cognitive dissonance here because confirmation bias is at work.

So it is time for me to no longer comment on anything involving foreign affairs, or at least on these threads. It is as simple as that. It is a world view issue at this point. Sorry, if I cannot believe the Bilderberger modern day version. Sorry.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
89. Who said anything about the Bildebergers? Did you mean that comment for someone else?
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 05:22 PM
Apr 2014

I don't believe in CTs either, I look at the FACTS. And if you don't want to comment, that is your choice, but I won't ever allow anyone to stop me from expressing my opinions, nor should you, nor do I take it personally if people I generally respect, disagree with me. Sometimes I value their pointing out where I might be wrong.

The American people have a right to have a say in how their government is operating. They also have a right to the TRUTH and that is what we will continue to look for.

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
101. I look at the facts too
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 05:55 PM
Apr 2014

and I am not going down the PNAC is behind every conflict ever again. It fit once. like a glove mind you. That does not mean it fits everywhere.

As to the American people having a right, fine they do. They don't want to.

As I said, seeing PNAC and the rest behind every crisis is not really conducing how this shit really works, at this point it is a distraction, While you see PNAC everywhere, you are missing new actors, and new items, or the fact that we are pretty much powerless in Eastern Europe, and will need to go total war if we decide to use military force.

That is the reality

But as to the American people, I am sorry, they don't really care. I am not dismissive, just know this reality.

But at this point all I have to offer apparently is insults, and cognitive dissonance. So why bother?

Oh and part of the facts include Putin... and his statements of intent. But if we all see is PNAC, we are going to miss that. Sorry, I like nuance and ALL the facts

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
104. Well, I agree with you. The PNAC is only one element and maybe if some of them were not blathering
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 06:07 PM
Apr 2014

about how we need to be more 'tough' on Russia eg, no one would be talking about them. But they are injecting their opinions into this, as they have in Syria and Libya. They certainly ARE a factor that we can never take our eyes off. Some of them will be running for the WH eg, Jeb Bush has been mentioned, and Cheney's daughter, the daughter of another PNACer and War Criminal, has already run for office.

So long as they continue to try to influence US Foreign Policy they will be a factor, that is a fact. Had they gone to jail for their War Crimes we wouldn't have to worry about them, but they didn't.

There are MANY 'factors' pushing this country into every conflict that surfaces, or is promoted, around the globe. And the American people DO care, they lost over 6,000 of their own soldiers in illegal wars for what? Qui Bono? Certainly not the American people.

I am not sure of your position on who is behind all the disruption in the world. Ukraine is just the latest. I am interested in your opinion, it may influence mine Nadin.

None of us knows anything in the scheme of things, we just keep seeing the same war mongering going on, we are still being lectured by the likes of Condi Rice and Cheney et al regarding our 'National Security' and 'Leadership'.

I am willing to learn but if you don't feel comfortable talking here, then I understand. I promise if anyone attacks you personally I will most definitely state my opinion on that.

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
108. I keep going back to what an instructor who once was in the arena told us many years ago
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 07:00 PM
Apr 2014

International relations is a bunch of sons of bitches advancing national interests. (He was in his late 60s back in 1983 so we can forgive him for not mentioning women) Among other things he was a CIA operator and an AF Intel officer. So given he did the dirty work, I think we can take his experience for something.

As to PNAC, I don't care how many times McCain goes to places abroad for photo ops (and one of these days he will be shot and killed if he keeps this up, leading to a huge international incident, but that is the extent of the influence). The fact that you have McCain doing these things from the outside tells you how weak the PNAC boys have become, and to a point irrelevant.

Again, I go back to my professor.

Who is involved?

NATO and the EU. Why, they want secure borders on the East and the most they would do is allow Poland and Rumania in, why? They push any further east... and they knew it. Ukraine actually applied at one point and received a stern no. And Russia has been paranoid ever since. There is more to it, but that is the main objective, security.

The EU wants Ukraine for the same reason Putin wants Ukraine, the industrial East and the Agricultural west, there is a reason they are called the bread basket of Russia. The industrial East is closer to Reagan Democrats (and I am using that analogy becuase it sort of fits, because it really does not, but will make sense to Americans), who voted for Yanukovich who ran a nationalist, resurgent Ukraine campaign. Think again, it barely fits but it is understandable from an American perspective, a morning in America campaign. Add to that his agreements with Russia to get interest free loans to stabilize the economy, and his Ethnic Russian base, and that is the proximate origin of the crisis.

The majority of the population to the West, thought Yanukovich was forcing them to the arms of Russia, which for very local historical reasons they feared. The most recent of those was the destruction of the Kulaks in the 1930s. Yes, Nuland was there, distributing cookies at the square, but that was the State Department taking advantage, we did not push that. Once it developed, we encouraged it, why? See the first line, you have plenty of sons of bitches advancing national interests, and it is not in the interests of the US, or Germany for that matter, to see a resurgent Russia. So that is not about IMF or European bankers, it is simply containment of a resurgent Russia. The Bankers and the IMF are taking advantage of it, but they are not the main reason we encouraged Maidan square, we did not cause it. Don't get me wrong, the interests of the banks are somewhere up there, but not the main reason. Truly containment is the real reason. Russia is going for try number three at Empire...and the West really does not want that. The other two were ghastly and costly.

Now look at Russia, Putin has made several statements that point straight to that resurgent Russia. The dissolution of the USSR was a mistake, Kiev is the mother of all Russian Cities, and the latest is the use of the term New Russia. The first one is more modern, and to be honest, he believes that. The other two have long roots, and mean he intends to take the whole Ukraine. That is his intent. See what I said about sons of bitches advancing national interests. It is in his national interest to have a warm water port, and an industrial zone to rearm the armed forces. Some of the cities in the East were closed during the cold war and all they produced was weapons. They also saw zero unemployment, and very healthy pensions. So a lot of the folks, especially older ones, remember that, and Putin playing on that has promised to raise pensions. He is also playing on rank nationalism and minorities still matter a lot more in Europe than in the US, because these are not multicultural nations for the most part. So ethnic hates and distrusts are just part of the witches brew.

Other forces at play are yes, your antisemitic groups and those are not just Sbvoboda, though it is frightening they were given positions in national security, they have had what four defense ministers so far and three internal security? This story from China actually illuminates the issues for the cabinet quite well


The new Prime Minister Arseny Yatsenyuk, a 39-year-old former banker and diplomat, is expected to pay special attention to Ukraine's economy and foreign policy.

Although it is widely believed that Yatsenyuk, who was one of the prominent figures in Ukraine's pro-European protests, would concentrate government efforts towards the accession to the 28- member European Union, some analysts say the new PM would most likely develop balanced foreign policy.

While in service as the country's foreign minister in 2007, Yatsenyuk has maintained good diplomatic relations with both Eastern and Western partners.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/world/2014-03/01/c_126206979.htm

And I find this particularly interesting, and I am going to Xinxua because they as of yet do not have a dog in this fight. So for the moment, they are a tad more neutral as far as a new service is concerned. I wonder where Beijing is on this one? What are their national interests? I guess seeing the West bleed itself white, with Russia would be perfectly acceptable. I mean, this is how the US became an Empire... and why we emerged in 1945 as such.

And this from the Guardian is particularly interesting


The Kremlin describes last month's uprising in next-door Ukraine as an illegitimate fascist coup. It says dark rightwing forces have taken over the government, forcing Moscow to "protect" Ukraine's ethnic Russian minority. The local government in Crimea is preparing for a referendum on Sunday which could lead to Russia annexing the region. Yanukovych, meanwhile, has fled to Russia.

Schilling, however, was an unlikely fascist. A father of two daughters, he and his wife Anna had lived in Italy. They had four grandchildren. Moreover, he was Jewish.


With Ukraine on the brink of invasion and division, most people in Kiev blame the country's troubles on the former president. "This is Yanukovych's fault," Zhenia, a pensioner, said, surveying the battleground in Institutska Street, where many were gunned down. She was crying.


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/13/ukraine-uprising-fascist-coup-grassroots-movement

Do we have fascists? Likely, but not just in the Western part of the Country. What we have though, everywhere, are hard core nationalists, who want to bring the nation back to what it was once. A few have even talked of Kievan Rus, which incidentally so does the Kremlin. But the vision of how to do that is different for each region of Ukraine.

As to the US actually going to an armed conflict. Nope, it ain't gonna happen. It is not in our national interest to do such. Why? We are tired from ten years of war, and quite frankly can't afford it. If we end up in another European war, like WW I and II, it will be kicking and screaming (though you can make more of a case for the US entering WW II on purpose)For the record, the Kremlin can do math too, and they know this.

As to Americans being played by these powerful forces? Yes and no. Some of this governments do on purpose. A lot of it, they stumble like old blind men, into situations they cannot handle. And my evidence as to why we are not going to play more than a war of words if we can avoid it... the US propaganda on all this has been pretty soft, nothing like before the war in Iraq for example. There are no claims of mushroom clouds or anything like that.

What this is doing though is releasing a lot of fears and a lot of questions as well as other things in the Far East, not just Ukraine. And Austerity is doing something else, it is releasing the poison of RW thinking all over Europe, including France. And that is not because these evil people want a war. The Austrian School of Economics, as well as the Chicago School of Economics are almost religions, and a core principle of faith is that social nets don't work.

Ironically they were both a reaction to the USSR, and garble bargle Communism, and they have evolved with the times. After all Russian has cut down their own safety nets to the bone and then some, and has also seen a rise of nationalism not seen in a while, as well as a local oligarchy.

You asked for the nuance, you got it. And this is what I have been trying to point out all along. It is not just one thing behind this, As to the blind men stumbling into situations, read the beginning of the Guns of August by Barbra Tuchman. Her description of how Europe stumbled onto WW I is precious, and quite accurate.

But there are two things to remember, all nations pursue their own national interests, aways. and yes, war is the pursuit of politics by another name. That said, do we have an Oligarchy in the US? Yes. The least thing they want is a world war. It really is bad for business, and at times it sets the ground for the little people to wake up and taken them down like cheap dolls. Americans might not remember 1917, but they do.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
110. First, thank you for this excellent post and for taking the time to respond to my comment.
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 11:41 PM
Apr 2014

Second, there is not much that you have said that I can disagree with.

I completely agree, eg, that the current administration does NOT want to get into another war, especially one in the heart of Europe, for all the reasons you mentioned. I know a lot of people fear that, and I don't blame them considering the past number of years and our ongoing wars, including those that are under the radar.

Frankly I don't think Putin wants that either, it would be a completely stupid thing to do and whatever one may think of him, he is not that stupid.

What I do think is that Russia wants to be an economic force just as we do. And yes, every country does act in their own national interests.

I agree too that this war of words is frightening to many people because people now expect the US to go to war.

As for the Austerity programs in Europe, they are a travesty imo, and I completely agree with you here and have said so many times:

And Austerity is doing something else, it is releasing the poison of RW thinking all over Europe, including France. And that is not because these evil people want a war. The Austrian School of Economics, as well as the Chicago School of Economics are almost religions, and a core principle of faith is that social nets don't work.


Last year in Ukraine, the leader of a Gay Activist Group was beaten by a mob of such people. When asked later if he was afraid now of the prejudices that have come to the surface, he replied that he blamed it on ECONOMICS, that the bad economic conditions in Europe, and especially Ukraine have led directly to the rise of these hate groups.

Let me ask you a question. I listened to some of Putin's press conference a few days ago. He was asked about Ukraine of course and the gist of what he stated as to what he would like to have happen was that 'Ukraine would remain autonomous, not split in two, but with guarantees that all those, West and East, would be guaranteed safety and protection, rights etc.

But his main proposal was that it would not be 'annexed' to either Europe or Russia, but instead become a 'Bridge between the West and the East'. IF for argument's sake, you believe this is what he wants, do you think that is possible.

It seems like a good idea to me. Remain a separate, united country but NOT under the IMF/EU, which half the country doesn't want, or under Russia, which the other half doesn't want. But with trade agreements etc between Europe and Russia, helping their economy among other things.

Other than that, I cannot see a solution. And if that were to be end result of all this, it would mean the EU and Russia coming to several agreements and it would also mean the US HAS to get out of the picture.

How do YOU feel about such a solution? I don't blame Ukrainians for NOT wanting to be under the thumb of the IMF and the EU considering what a failure their policies have been.

Interesting coverage from China. I too have been trying to see what more neutral nations are saying. Thanks for that link.

Your professor sounds like he knew what he was talking about.

You asked for the nuance, you got it. And this is what I have been trying to point out all along. It is not just one thing behind this, As to the blind men stumbling into situations, read the beginning of the Guns of August by Barbra Tuchman. Her description of how Europe stumbled onto WW I is precious, and quite accurate.


I absolutely agree that there are so many other factors and factions at work than what a few people are pushing and see nothing there that we disagree about. I am sorry for any miscommunication as it appears we mostly agree.

Thank you again for responding so thoroughly. I wish I knew how to end all these conflicts in the world.
 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
111. No I do not believe Putin
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 11:50 PM
Apr 2014
But his main proposal was that it would not be 'annexed' to either Europe or Russia, but instead become a 'Bridge between the West and the East'. IF for argument's sake, you believe this is what he wants, do you think that is possible.


And the reason why I do not believe him is the several comments he has made.

Here.

http://nadinabbottblog.wordpress.com/2014/04/09/a-tad-on-the-ukraine-crisis/

I posted that a few days ago here. But that is in a gist why I don't believe Putin.

Right now that sounds like he is looking for an offramp though. But I believe him as far as I can throw him.
 

mylye2222

(2,992 posts)
87. I really wonder personnaly if the final goal of EU austeritylovers leaders
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 05:18 PM
Apr 2014

is to create a cotinental global hateful atmosphere .....to lead us to fight ourselves in wars ( civil or intercuntries), so therefore our military industry would be healthy, and so later, during a reconstruction time, the growing would be here....

Think about it. They know history as well as us, so why otherwise would they have a reason for pushing such policies?

Yes I Know it can be seen as a "conspiracy theory", but I just watch a tragic historic reanactment.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
92. It's hard to say, although they do seem to push it and use it. I doubt they care much
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 05:27 PM
Apr 2014

what happens to ordinary people, sociopaths don't have that ability generally and I do consider many of these people to be sociopathic after observing their brutal policies for years now.

Divide and Conquer, yes, I am certain that IS being promoted because if we all every united against their wars and economic terrorism, that would certainly be a huge threat to them.

It's not a CT to recognize facts. Promoting division has always been a tactic of the corrupt. That is a fact.

 

mylye2222

(2,992 posts)
96. And another grim fact is that those EU commisional officials ar NOT elected.
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 05:42 PM
Apr 2014

So they don't have to show accountable toward EU citizens.
Thats officialy the role of EU parlement....
Wich is , on practice, a giant puppet to give a Democratic face to that....
And the final word commes always from Brussels, not Strasbourg....

Yes, Europe as designed by Monnet and Shuman was beautiful...

But that old beautiful ideal of peace was turned into dark nightmare by those very people supposed to initially protect us from hate each other....

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
72. Which goes back to the World Economic Wall St crash, after which Europe
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 04:46 PM
Apr 2014

was taken over by Oligarchs even to the point of getting them installed in EU governments. And the beginning of forcing the people to pay off their gambling debts, cutting Social Programs, imposing the disgustingly, though aptly named 'Auserity' policies creating massive unemployment, higher taxes on the PEOPLE, etc etc.

All those responsible for all of this, should be sitting in prison and ill-gotten gains, hidden in offshore accounts, accumulating while the people grow poorer and poorer each day.

It was a massive takeover by Economic warfare of the world's economies. They never needed an army, although they do use the now recognizable Robo Cops, same uniforms worldwide, to slap down any dissent before it gets 'too out of hand'.

All this poverty they are creating are breathing ground for the rise of the most extremist groups, some of whom they are actively USING to bring down governments that don't comply.

Hopefully, it isn't too late for some drastic changes, starting with the prosecutions of the 'Men Who Crashed The World' here and elsewhere, but I am afraid it IS already too late. Ukraine's govt refused to become part of this plan and were driven from office using Neo Nazis to do so.

Had Yanukovich simply accepted the EU/IMF deal he would be a hero today, regardless of how corrupt he may have been.

socialist_n_TN

(11,481 posts)
113. You forgot communists, socialists and unionists......
Sat Apr 19, 2014, 02:12 PM
Apr 2014

They're always the FIRST targets of the fascists. As they were in Ukraine. Witness the seizure of the offices of the CPU and Borotba.

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
33. Plesae do educatate yourself on the history of antisemitism
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 03:23 PM
Apr 2014

in the Pale of Settlement, please.

I expect that term to be used again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Russia

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/pale.html

And please do study up on Progroms. Serious.

 

mylye2222

(2,992 posts)
40. Ill bring everyone together.
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 03:32 PM
Apr 2014

YES That is not a hoax.

Yes antisemitism is high on Ukraine, as well as on all former USSR nations and Russia.

And yes, they are at risk....of big treat from Russia, both from racism and ecomically.

All we need is beeing firm as much as with Sloboda, nor with Putin.

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
42. The problem is that none is being
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 03:39 PM
Apr 2014

hard on both sides

Yes, the RIGHT in Kiev is a problem, a serious problem, but it is a parliamentary system. If things get much worst they will gain strength (history here). But really, what Putin is doing is trying to recreate the Empire, New Russia is a term going back to the Tsars.

The US really has no reach or options here, unless they want a nuclear war, really. And Putin, well, there are sanctions in place now.

So yes, McCain went there and shot his big mouth... (and did more damage than good), but really, he is not running US Foreign Policy, but from posts here, it seems he did become POTUS.

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
41. And the Tsar evicted people to the East and was responsible for one of the
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 03:36 PM
Apr 2014

earliest genocides in the Crimea to be exact. That does not cancel pure, sheer hatred of Jews in Eastern Europe, capice?

Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin

(107,084 posts)
112. Never said it did.
Sat Apr 19, 2014, 12:13 PM
Apr 2014

Not sure where you got that idea from my post. My intention was to illustrate how deep the tension between Russia and the Ukraine goes.

Marrah_G

(28,581 posts)
32. That's good news
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 03:20 PM
Apr 2014

There has been a rise in anti-semetic and neo-nazi movements in Europe so it was not completely unbelievable. Someone definitely wants to scare the Jewish population there.

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
35. They also called it a provocation
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 03:26 PM
Apr 2014

if you have your ears highly attuned to local conditions, tricky phrase has a particular meaning, short and sweet, they know it is not over and they are deadly worried.

They know the history of the Okhrana, and how they used to do this shit back in the 1880s.

cthulu2016

(10,960 posts)
36. "Forgery" and "Hoax" are not synonyms.
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 03:27 PM
Apr 2014

Hoax is primarily a matter of intent. A hoax seeks publicity. Deception for money is typically called fraud. There is some overlap, of course, by your use of "hoax" in this context says that that the purpose of the flyer was adverse publicity, which seems unlikely given what we know so far.

The flyer is (almost certainly) not an official document of the People's Republic of Donetks (and I don't recall hardly anyone saying it was) but there is no evidence it is a "hoax, and some evidence suggesting it is not a "hoax."

It is a forgery, but appears to be one concocted for money, not publicity.

It appears to be part of a larger protection racket that may be associated with some element of the pro-Russian breakaway movement in Donetsk (somewhat likely, given that the perpetrators have confidence of movement and action in the environment of a break-away republic), or the work of con-men with no such association, merely exploiting the fear generated by the pro-Russian breakaway movement's take-over in Donetsk.

The assumption that it is a "false flag" event done for the purpose of being publicized and thus discrediting the People's Republic of Donetks is not supported by much reality, since the protection racket began with very similar letters to businesses, seeking to extort money, and the publicity outside Donetsk is most likely not desired by the perpetrators.

Did the People's Republic of Donetks institute an extortion racket against businesses which was then copied for a false flag event about Jews? Unlikely. Were some folks seeking money by shaking down businesses first, then Jews, and who knows who else? Likely. Were the earlier letters to businesses the beginning of a slow-motion false flag campaign involving no attempt to publicize? Seems unlikely, but it's possible and if somebody really wants to believe it, they probably will.

Brickbat

(19,339 posts)
47. I find it odd that people are having such difficulties talking about this.
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 03:58 PM
Apr 2014

Antisemitism exists; no one is arguing that. It's pervasive in the region. The flier exists; we've seen it. The flier is antisemitic, no question. The assertion that it was put together by an official, recognized government seems to be the issue. Could an official entity have done this? Absolutely. Did it? Probably not.

IMO, trying to figure out who did it is a fool's game. There are any number of shadowy groups that thrive on chaos, hatred, violence and so on in the former Soviet republics. Four unemployed losers get drunk, see something on the internet, find a couple guns, and decide they're an organized militia with a cause. Today it's the People's Liberation Front of Judea, tomorrow it's the Judean Popular People's Front. Bigotry is entrenched in the culture; in addition, the Tatar yoke still weighs heavy.

This may sound like I'm minimizing it; that is not my intent. It's contemptible and disgusting. Official policy, though? Doubtful.

 

1000words

(7,051 posts)
50. A topic that solicits a reflexive emotional reaction.
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 04:02 PM
Apr 2014

Thus it's effectiveness as psyop propaganda

Catherina

(35,568 posts)
60. It's 1 of at least 3 similar hoaxes
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 04:21 PM
Apr 2014

It's even more disgusting, more sick in this case but it's not the first case of hoax leaflets recently.

April 17, 2014, 12:15 p.m. WASHINGTON, D.C.


TO: NCSJ Leadership and Interested Parties

FROM: Stephen M. Greenberg, Chairman;
Alexander Smukler, NCSJ President;
Mark B. Levin, NCSJ Executive Director

UKRAINE UPDATE #22



On the evening of April 15, official-looking documents were circulated in the eastern Ukrainian city of Donetsk, calling on Jews to register with the Nationalities Commissioner and pay $50 or lose their citizenship and face deportation. Three individuals wearing ski masks and the flag of the Russian Federation were seen distributing the flyers near the Donetsk synagogue.

The leaflets read:

“Dear citizens of Jewish nationality! Due to the fact that leaders of the Jewish Community of Ukraine support the Bandera junta in Kiev and are hostile to the Orthodox Donetsk Republic and its citizens, the main headquarters of the Donetsk Republic declares the following:

• Every citizen of Jewish nationality older than 16 years, residing in the territory of a sovereign Donetsk Republic has to go to Donetsk Regional Administrator to see the Nationalities Commissioner, Office 514, for registration. The registration fee is $50.
• Persons should have with them with cash in the amount of $50 for registration, a passport to mark their religion, and documents of family members, as well as ownership documents for their properties and vehicles.
• In case of failure to register, the perpetrators will lose their citizenship and will be deported outside the republic, with their property confiscated.”

(Photo: The Coordination Forum for Countering Antisemitism)
A leaflet distributed in Donetsk, Ukraine, calls for all Jewish people over 16 years-old to register as Jews.
(Photo: The Coordination Forum for Countering Antisemitism)

The flyers were signed in the name of Denis Pushilin, the leader of Donetsk’s pro-Russian separatists, who led the takeover of several government buildings and claimed the city as the Donetsk Republic.

NCSJ has contacted the Donetsk Jewish community leaders, who called the flyers a provocation. They said that all authorities have denied any connection to the flyers, and that Pushilin has denied authorship.

Several members of the community went to the Nationalities Commissioner, who repudiated the flyer, and said that the leaflets were distributed to cause unrest among the Jewish population.

Similar leaflets were distributed targeting international students at the local university.

In addition to the local community, NCSJ has been in regular contact with the State Department and the U.S. Embassy in Kiev on the issue of the flyers.

NCSJ will continue to monitor the situation in Donetsk and throughout Ukraine, and provide you with timely and critical updates.


About NCSJ

NCSJ: Advocates on Behalf of Jews in Russia, Ukraine, the Baltic States & Eurasia, founded in 1971, represents the organized American Jewish community in monitoring and advocating on behalf of the estimated 1.5 million Jews living in the 15 successor states of the former Soviet Union.
Website: http://WWW.NCSJ.ORG

NCSJ
email: ncsjinfo@ncsj.org
phone: 202-898-2500


NCSJ is a beneficiary of The Jewish Federations of North America and the National Federation/Agency Alliance through its network of Federations.


http://myemail.constantcontact.com/Ukraine-Update--22---Flyer-calls-for-Donetsk-Jews-to--register-.html?soid=1101481238099&aid=DbfJKyLhTfo


The letter states there was a similar flyer that was "distributed targeting international students at the local university" and earlier today I found evidence of another flyer that was targeting the business community and demanding $70 (US dollars in cash) as a protection fee.

Now I understand better why Time reported Either a Hoax or a Crude Extortion Scheme.

In the past few days, he added, similar fliers have been handed around to businessmen and foreign students in Donetsk. So all of this seems to be part of rather sloppy extortion scheme.




In a long, debunking article, Shimon Briman reports that it was not the first time such leaflets were distributed in the area in recent days. Business owners in Donetsk were purportedly approached with a warning leaflet between April 14 and 16 and asked to pay a flat fee of U.S. $70 for protection or risk being attacked. The stamp at the bottom of the two leaflets match almost exactly.



The same site also noted that the language in both documents leans heavily on a play by the Strugatsky brothers, called “Jews of the city of Peter, or Sad conversation by candlelight.” Arkady and Boris Strugatsky were a famous Russian science-fiction writing pair, and the forum daily.com post surmises that whoever created the two documents must have been very familiar with the works of the two brothers, and is most likely a well-read individual.

The piece dissects some of the play’s dialogue, showing how it parallels the language in the leaflets, and offers up this opinion: “It’s unlikely that such intellectuals are now in the headquarters of the so-called ‘Donetsk republic.’ The author of these provocative leaflets is a creative person, prone to extraordinary and theatrical gestures, who decided to re-enact the fiction of these literary brothers–not on stage, but in real life.”

Unless the hoaxer is bent on garnering some personal publicity, it’s unlikely that we’ll ever find out who did create the flyers, but what’s for sure is that in such a political tinder-box, a joke like this is all that’s required to set off a crisis.

https://www.vocativ.com/world/ukraine-world/anti-semitic-ukraine-flyer-literary-hoax/



Also, Pushilin never said it was his people who distributed the flyer. That was either a poor or a deliberate mistranslation in the US press. What he said is that "fliers were distributed under his organization's name in Donetsk but denied any connection to them, Ynet reported in Hebrew."

He also said whoever distributed them were "degenerates":

«Какие-то уроды вчера раздавали по торговым точкам калининского района… Но даже здесь плохо сработали — я себя никогда не называл народным губернатором… А Мацука, который это разместил на сайте новости дн юа — это известный донецкий грантоед...», — сказал медиа-проекту «Киев еврейский» Денис Пушилин.

"Some degenerates distributed them around Kalinin district yesterday ... But even here it barely worked - I never call myself the people's governor ... But Matsuka who distributed these photos on news sites is a well-known Donetsk politician" - Denis Pushilin told our paper "Kiev Jewish".

http://evreiskiy.kiev.ua/v-donecke-razdali-nacistskuju-13077.html


One additional detail I found out yesterday is that the stamp isn't even right, it's the stamp of the former mayor.

More information in Koko's thread: Ukraine Is Not Ordering Its Jews to Register

Bosonic

(3,746 posts)
63. Jews in east Ukraine worried after anti-Semitic tract
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 04:24 PM
Apr 2014

Last edited Fri Apr 18, 2014, 05:33 PM - Edit history (1)

Jews in east Ukraine worried after anti-Semitic tract

Donetsk (Ukraine) (AFP)
- Members of the Jewish community in the pro-Russian protest hub of Donetsk in eastern Ukraine said Friday that they were left shaken by the distribution of tracts demanding the registration of Jews.

Concerns were evident, despite scepticism from Jewish leaders in the region and a US group fighting anti-Semitism, the Anti-Defamation League, that the pamphlets handed out in front of the synagogue on Tuesday were anything more than calculated "provocation" by unknown parties.

"One of the men insisted that we read some pamphlets that they had in their hands. We refused because he wouldn't remove his hood so they glued the fliers to the synagogue and left," said Leonid Krasnopoloski, 43.

Bearing the stamp of the pro-Russian insurgency and signature of one its leaders, they contained a demand for every Jew to gather at the seized local administration building on May 3 to pay a fee of $50 (36 euros) to register or face the threat of being expelled from the region.

http://news.yahoo.com/jews-east-ukraine-worried-anti-semitic-tract-175728872.html;_ylt=AwrBJR6zhlFTwzwACpjQtDMD



progressivebydesign

(19,458 posts)
69. And yet the world media ran with it without considering its origin.
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 04:42 PM
Apr 2014

The fliers were horrible, and cruel, and meant to incite fear and anger. that is understood.. But even here on DU, where people are supposed to be a bit more skeptical, or learned, it was a full scale freak out. Just as it was plastered all over Herman Cain's FB feed, and every other right winger, and every news outlet. And it was reported as fact, that Jews were officially asked to register, NOT that the flyer was handed out (not mailed,) by guys in masks, and were not investigated before the world media reported it as a fact.

But it made for a great headline, and lots of clicks for the news outlets sites. And it made for some convenient outrage by the right, who used it to bash the President over the situation... of course. Maybe I'm too skeptical, but I didn't buy it in the first place.

malaise

(267,808 posts)
71. The media is one thing but the Secretary of State
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 04:46 PM
Apr 2014

is another.

I too am a skeptic - seemed ridiculous from day one.

 

mylye2222

(2,992 posts)
83. I seconds you!
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 05:13 PM
Apr 2014

He has acces to a lot of sources than us, surely farmore reliable than newspapers and other public news stuff.

He's a very cautious guy on international issues, and certainly I don't see him giving such a statement in total naivete.

karynnj

(59,474 posts)
103. No he is not naive and his comments were completely taken out of context
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 06:05 PM
Apr 2014

However, here is what Kerry actually said as given in the FULL TEXT of the remarks:


The parties agreed today that all sides must refrain from the use of violence, intimidation, or provocative actions. And we strongly condemned and rejected all expressions of extremism, racism, and religious intolerance, including anti-Semitism.

Let me say a quick word about that. Just in the last couple of days, notices were sent to Jews in one city indicating that they had to identify themselves as Jews. And obviously, the accompanying threat implied is – or threatened – or suffer the consequences, one way or the other.

In the year 2014, after all of the miles traveled and all of the journey of history, this is not just intolerable; it’s grotesque. It is beyond unacceptable. And any of the people who engage in these kinds of activities, from whatever party or whatever ideology or whatever place they crawl out of, there is no place for that. And unanimously, every party today joined in this condemnation of that kind of behavior.

In addition, recently, the Ukrainian – the Russian Orthodox Church members in Ukraine were threatened that the Ukrainian Orthodox Church was somehow going to attack them in the course of the next days. That kind of behavior, that kind of threat, has no place. And all parties agreed that that kind of behavior is not just grotesque and unacceptable, but it will not stand the test of the direction that Ukraine wants to move in.


http://www.state.gov/secretary/remarks/2014/04/224947.htm

Note that Kerry is condemning ALL attacks - Note that speaking of Russian Orthodox Church members being threatened that the Ukrainian church would attack them that he uses the same words "grotesque and unacceptable". In both cases, he does not state who has made the threats - just that they have been made and used to intimidate.

Don't you agree that given that BOTH sides have had a history of bad behavior towards minorities that it should be condemned? Not to mention, one of the demands of the Russians was that the rights of (at least some - ie the Russian speaking) minorities be protected. What Ukraine is agreeing to do is to enact the reforms that protect the minorities. From the reports of Lavrov's comments, he too spoke of ending these behaviors as well.

I am Jewish and my husband's maternal grandmother and grandfather immigrated from near Odessa. Years ago, in Hebrew school, my kids all learned of life in the shtetls and the pograms. That the Ukrainians have a very bad history is not questionable. The same though is true of the Russians.

At this point, especially if these steps laid out in Geneva are actually taken, it is possible - that like Germany - Ukraine may confront their past or at least begin to teach that these actions against any group - whether religious, ethnic or anything else are as Kerry said "grotesque".

karynnj

(59,474 posts)
88. Read Kerry's full remarks - they are general and they are good in context.
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 05:19 PM
Apr 2014

However, here is what Kerry actually said as given in the FULL TEXT of the remarks:


The parties agreed today that all sides must refrain from the use of violence, intimidation, or provocative actions. And we strongly condemned and rejected all expressions of extremism, racism, and religious intolerance, including anti-Semitism.

Let me say a quick word about that. Just in the last couple of days, notices were sent to Jews in one city indicating that they had to identify themselves as Jews. And obviously, the accompanying threat implied is – or threatened – or suffer the consequences, one way or the other.

In the year 2014, after all of the miles traveled and all of the journey of history, this is not just intolerable; it’s grotesque. It is beyond unacceptable. And any of the people who engage in these kinds of activities, from whatever party or whatever ideology or whatever place they crawl out of, there is no place for that. And unanimously, every party today joined in this condemnation of that kind of behavior.

In addition, recently, the Ukrainian – the Russian Orthodox Church members in Ukraine were threatened that the Ukrainian Orthodox Church was somehow going to attack them in the course of the next days. That kind of behavior, that kind of threat, has no place. And all parties agreed that that kind of behavior is not just grotesque and unacceptable, but it will not stand the test of the direction that Ukraine wants to move in.


http://www.state.gov/secretary/remarks/2014/04/224947.htm

Note that Kerry is condemning ALL attacks - Note that speaking of Russian Orthodox Church members being threatened that the Ukrainian church would attack them that he uses the same words "grotesque and unacceptable". In both cases, he does not state who has made the threats - just that they have been made and used to intimidate.

Don't you agree that given that BOTH sides have had a history of bad behavior towards minorities that it should be condemned? Not to mention, one of the demands of the Russians was that the rights of (at least some - ie the Russian speaking) minorities be protected. What Ukraine is agreeing to do is to enact the reforms that protect the minorities. From the reports of Lavrov's comments, he too spoke of ending these behaviors as well.

I am Jewish and my husband's maternal grandmother and grandfather immigrated from near Odessa. Years ago, in Hebrew school, my kids all learned of life in the shtetls and the pograms. That the Ukrainians have a very bad history is not questionable. The same though is true of the Russians.

At this point, especially if these steps laid out in Geneva are actually taken, it is possible - that like Germany - Ukraine may confront their past or at least begin to teach that these actions against any group - whether religious, ethnic or anything else are as Kerry said "grotesque".

karynnj

(59,474 posts)
94. They took a sentence or two out of context
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 05:33 PM
Apr 2014

As you can see, he made a strong, very balanced statement that I think would - in context be accepted by every person on this site. These actions are despicable - and it doesn't make them non newsworthy just because they are not really rules that a government is implementing - though that would of course be worse.

Thank you for reading the comments.

 

mylye2222

(2,992 posts)
95. Yes, putting sentences out of context! as always.
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 05:37 PM
Apr 2014

That old despicable way to try to discredit him...

F....K THAT BUNCH OF CRAP CORPORATE MEDIA AND THEIR SILLY TACTICS.

karynnj

(59,474 posts)
102. Not to mention, if and when it is disputed - they then say he misspoke
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 06:03 PM
Apr 2014

The fact is that he very very rarely misspeaks. He is extremely hard working and knowledgeable and very good at speaking off the cuff. His, this was part of prepared remarks -- so he was even less likely to have not considered the wording.

Catherina

(35,568 posts)
107. Ukraine's Chief Rabbi: "Antisemitic flyer 'by Donetsk People's Republic' in Ukraine a hoax"
Fri Apr 18, 2014, 06:50 PM
Apr 2014
Antisemitic flyer 'by Donetsk People's Republic' in Ukraine a hoax

City's chief rabbi states pamphlet is fake, claiming it is meant to discredit pro-Russian protesters or Jewish community

Alec Luhn in Donetsk
The Guardian, Friday 18 April 2014 16.18 BST


The barricades outside the Donetsk regional administration building are plastered with anti-fascist posters. Photograph: Scott Olson/Getty Images

...

US secretary of state John Kerry soon waded into the media storm over the piece of paper, describing it as "grotesque" and "beyond unacceptable". But on Friday the chairman of the Donetsk People's Republic and the city's chief rabbi both stated that the flyer was a fake meant to discredit the so-called republic or the Jewish community.

...

"I think it's someone trying to use the Jewish community in Donetsk as an instrument in this conflict. That's why we're upset," the chief rabbi, Pinchas Vishedski, told journalists on Friday.

According to Jewish community members at Donetsk's only synagogue, which was founded 110 years ago, three masked men walked up to worshippers standing on the street after a Passover service on Wednesday and tried to distribute the flyers. They wore no insignia and quickly left when asked to identify themselves.

...

When seen by the Guardian on Friday, several aspects of the document immediately called into question its legitimacy. Pushilin is officially the chairman of the temporary government and has avoided being labelled its governor or leader. Also, the Donetsk People's Republic stamp shown there is poor quality and a different size than normally used, and the order is not signed.

...

"We were alarmed but now things have calmed down," said worshipper Ari Schwartz.

...
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/18/antisemitic-donetsk-peoples-republic-ukraine-hoax
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