More classified-information-leaking traitors/thieves

[Otelo]

The secret whistleblowers, revisited

The new documentary 1971, which premiered on Friday, reveals how a group of activists exposed the secrets of J. Edgar Hoover’s FBI - See more at: http://www.cjr.org/reality_check/the_secret_whistleblowers_revi.php#sthash.BPpM1yL6.dpuf

"In March 1971, eight burglars broke into a Federal Bureau of Investigation office in Media, PA, and stole hundreds of documents. They sorted through the files—which revealed a massive, illegal campaign by the FBI to crush political dissent—and sent some of them to the press. The documents were sent anonymously and, despite a lengthy FBI investigation, the burglars were never found.

This story was retold recently in Betty Medsger’s book, The Burglary. Medsger introduced director Johanna Hamilton to the story, and 1971 is in many ways the book’s companion piece. While Medsger builds as detailed a profile of the FBI under Hoover as she does of the individual burglars, Hamilton spends more time on the burglars’ personal stories and how their decision to steal the documents changed their lives.

The burglars, who called themselves the Citizens Commission to Investigate the FBI, were all anti-war activists and ordinary people: Bob Williamson was a social worker; John and Bonnie Raines were a couple with young children; Keith Forsyth drove a cab. Alarmed by rumors that the FBI was spying on anti-war protesters and civil rights activists, they decided to get proof, no matter the considerable risk to themselves or their families. “When you realize that something is very wrong,” Forsyth says in the film, “there’s no choice. You have to do something.” -

See more at: http://www.cjr.org/reality_check/the_secret_whistleblowers_revi.php#sthash.BPpM1yL6.dpuf

Most of us (including me) would have called them heroes if DU had existed back then.

[Luminous Animal]

1. And some of us (not me) would have called them thieves and cowards and demanded that they

turn themselves in to "face the music."

[randome]

2. But these guys exposed illegality.

Snowden, OTOH, decided he just didn't like the NSA. Big difference. A legal warrant that Snowden didn't like versus illegal spying.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]A 90% chance of rain means the same as a 10% chance:
It might rain and it might not.[/center][/font][hr]

[Luminous Animal]

3. Keep banging that drum. Its got a beat that frightened old folks and Republicans love.

[randome]

4. You don't need to agree with me.

But do you see my point? And can you concede that others legitimately see this differently than you?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Aspire to inspire.[/center][/font][hr]

[Android3.14]

12. Your point is ridiculous

It is without merit, incorrect, and the opposite of anything resembling common sense. That you stick by this so-called "point" speaks more to a level of stubbornness than it does to anything related to the NSA illegally spying on innocent people.

[randome]

13. Where am I incorrect?

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Don't ever underestimate the long-term effects of a good night's sleep.[/center][/font][hr]

[Android3.14]

14. First line, for example

"Snowden, OTOH, decided he just didn't like the NSA."
1. You cannot know his motivations.
2. One doesn't risk a lifetime in prison because you don't like your employer.
But please, let me add that I am happy you had no further objections to my post.

[randome]

15. So it's my opinion and as such is not incorrect.

Just somebody's opinion on an anonymous message board.

And yes, isolated cast-offs who never finish anything in their lives without difficulty (in Snowden's case, high school, college, Army training, CIA) often do react in an equally illogical manner. Still, that's just my opinion.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]I'm always right. When I'm wrong I admit it.
So then I'm right about being wrong.[/center][/font][hr]

[LanternWaste]

28. As such, I'm confident it will be allowed all the credibility it indeed, warrants.

"Still, that's just my opinion..."

As such, I'm confident it will be allowed all the credibility it indeed, warrants.

[zeemike]

5. It was the same illegality the Snowden exposed.

they were spying on Americans and breaking the law.
It is not different because then it was on paper and now it is in bytes.

[GoneFishin]

6. Yeah. But that was THEN. And this is NOW. We know the government used to do

bad things back then. But ever since Hope & Change we know that stuff doesn't happen anymore.

[cantbeserious]

8. Your Opinion - Others Would Disagree

eom

[Romulox]

9. As if some technicality is the basis for your full-throated endorsement of the surveillance state.

Someone could've woken from a multi-year coma and still predicted with perfect accuracy that our "centrists" would come down in favor of domestic spying.

Like the Red Queen--it's first the verdict, then the trial with you lot.

[randome]

10. 'Full-throated endorsement'? Wow.

So reasonable minds can't agree to disagree on this topic, huh?

No one is disputing my point, however. That there is a legal warrant for storing copies of metadata records and that makes it very different from the situation in the OP. Since a warrant isn't even needed to get copies of third-party business records, it seems as if the NSA is very aware of their responsibilities.

Snowden decided he didn't like that so he stole whatever he could and ran. That's how it looks to me.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]You should never stop having childhood dreams.[/center][/font][hr]

[uponit7771]

17. That's how it is in reality, he stole it and didn't do anything technical to do so... didn't hack or

... crack anything he was assigned to copy the docs to Hawaii and started opening them...

Then stole them after he found the juice.

[randome]

20. And the 'juice' turned out to be: 1. A legal warrant for phone metadata records.

2. An erroneous assumption that PRISM was a system for downloading the Internet daily.
3. 'Revelations' that our country spies on other countries.

I honestly can't see why anyone would want to hitch their horses to such a poor representative as Snowden.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font][hr]

[uponit7771]

22. +1

[Bandit]

24. If it is all so legal, why is everyone so upset?

People don't usually get upset with our government following the law and when our government follows the law they don't hide it. FISA court was not even brought into the issue when Bush* first started the spying. There was no warrant. The current warrant you say they have is not as extensive as many of the files released by Snowden suggest. The Government violated the US constitution and is embarrassed that snowden let everyone know about it.

[randome]

25. Well, I'm not upset.

The NSA could be disbanded tomorrow and it would mean nothing to me.

I can see why the NSA is upset, though. (And forget about what pontificating politicians like Steve King says.) Snowden went beyond 'revealing' the metadata storage. He told other countries how we spy on them. He told China which computers we are hacking into (and these were the computers they were using to hack into our systems.)

I would agree these aren't exactly terrible things to talk about publicly but he and Greenwald are also trying to subvert the President. For the first few months, every time Obama traveled somewhere, they would release a story about our spying on that specific country.

For a while, it seemed like the only real interest those two had was in embarrassing Obama, which sort of ties in with their Libertarian leanings.

I didn't think Chelsea Manning should have received a harsh sentence since she clearly had gender identity problems. And I don't think Snowden should have the book thrown at him, either. But you can't just say, in a societal sense, that it's okay to steal national security documents.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

[uponit7771]

16. ... then put others lives in danger for it. People think that's ok

[Otelo]

19. Is it constitutional?

Al Gore, ACLU, etc., disagree with randome from DU.

[randome]

21. Private citizens and private groups don't make that determination.

I really do understand the point that the metadata storage should go away. I don't necessarily agree with that but I can see the point. And it wouldn't bother me one iota if that happened today.

But stealing classified documents, running away, then distributing them to the world is not the way to go about having a conversation on this subject.

There was nothing in Snowden's claims that screamed 'Emergency!' to me. Especially when we already knew about the metadata storage since 2006.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Birds are territorial creatures.
The lyrics to the songbird's melodious trill go something like this:
"Stay out of my territory or I'll PECK YOUR GODDAMNED EYES OUT!"[/center][/font][hr]

[riderinthestorm]

26. Then it follows you believe the folks involved in the FBI theft were wrong.

Should go to jail etc etc.

Because gawd forbid any "private citizen" or "private group" expose Hoover and the FBI's criminal activities right?

Got it.

[randome]

27. Oh, come on, they exposed illegal activities.

Nothing Snowden has been talking about is illegal. Apparently the NSA goes the 'extra mile' since they don't even need a warrant for the metadata storage.

If Snowden had clearly shown evidence of illegality, I would be inclined to support him whether he did so in a perfect manner or not. In other words, I'd give him the benefit of the doubt.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[uponit7771]

23. That's their opinion... Come on, lets deal with rule of law. We're not Bundy-iets (sp)

[L0oniX]

7. Our government does wrong ...and exposing it is a crime. Fuck that!

[riderinthestorm]

11. Cowards!1!!! They should go to jail and face the music!11!!11

They stole HUNDREDS of documents and they couldn't possibly have read everything during the theft which means they should be CRUCIFIED because they probably stole useless stuff too!!11!!

Worse still! They SHARED the documents with REPORTERS!!11!! And I'm sure they were narcissistic reporters too!

Besides, Hoover was using that information to catch terrorists and stuff!!11!

The FBI is necessary and protects us!!111


(did I miss anything?)


Welcome to DU!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

18. It's like the "traitors/cowrds" draft resistors back then should have faced the music.

And, gone off to Vietnam to kill people they didn't know so LBJ and Nixon could prove their Strong Leader creds.

[MADem]

29. Well...uhhhh...they DID "face the music." Many went to jail (ALI, e.g.), or they went into exile.

Many went to Canada, or Sweden. Samples:

http://www.cbc.ca/archives/categories/war-conflict/vietnam-war/seeking-sanctuary-draft-dodgers/all-american-son-one-family-in-two-countries.html

http://www.cbc.ca/archives/categories/war-conflict/vietnam-war/seeking-sanctuary-draft-dodgers/american-doves-fly-north.html

It was only the sheer numbers that made it difficult for the government to come down on each and every individual with the full weight of their disapprobation.

Some numbers:

Of the 27 million men of draft age during the war, nearly nine million enlisted. Only 2.2 million of the remaining 18 million were drafted. Approximately 700,000 refused induction or deserted once they were in the service. According to government figures, which are generally conservative, more than half a million men and women were classified as deserters. Others never registered for the draft at all; estimates of the number of non-registrants range from 250,000 to two million, about half of whom were African-American.
On the civilian side, the Justice Department identified 570,000 men who violated the draft laws. Of 206,775 names referred to U.S. Attorneys for prosecution, 25,000 were indicted, more than 9,000 were convicted, and 3,250 were imprisoned for their resistance. Some 172,000 men received legal conscientious objector status. While every war in the history of our country has faced some moral resistance, this was a decidedly different phenomenon.

I continue to remain astounded at how many people don't seem to know 20th Century history at all.

It makes me feel very ... old.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

30. Most of them didn't turn themselves in to "face the music" like some think Snowden should do.

And, bravo to them and Snowden.

[MADem]

31. Many did, though. And many resigned themselves to a life exiled from their native land. nt

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

32. Heroes. Whether they turned themselves in or not. Just like Snowden.

[MADem]

33. They understood that their actions had consequences. nt