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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsJenny McCarthy does a major CYA...
She's scared of being held accountable for her actions, so she denies being the pusher of anti-vaccination woo she is.
Autism and the Agitator
APRIL 21, 2014
Frank Bruni
What do you call someone who sows misinformation, stokes fear, abets behavior that endangers people’s health, extracts enormous visibility from doing so and then says the equivalent of “Who? Me?”
I’m not aware of any common noun for a bad actor of this sort. But there’s a proper noun: Jenny McCarthy.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/22/opinion/bruni-autism-and-the-agitator.html?_r=0
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scheming daemons
(25,487 posts)...
lame54
(35,290 posts)that's a stretch
Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)the final say on whether or not I choose to vaccinate my children.
MicaelS
(8,747 posts)She is a lying POS. Here own words betray her.
She also appeared on CNN in 2007 and said that when concerned pregnant women asked her what to do, “I am surely not going to tell anyone to vaccinate.”
Two years later, in Time magazine, she said, “If you ask a parent of an autistic child if they want the measles or the autism, we will stand in line for the measles.” I’ve deleted the expletive she used before the second “measles.”
And on The Huffington Post a year after that, she responded to experts who insisted that vaccines didn’t cause autism and were crucial to public health with this declaration: “That’s a lie, and we’re sick of it.”
demigoddess
(6,641 posts)brain damage, blindness and deafness in the past, hasn't it. Not to mention death. Does she think those are better than autism? (rhetorical question)
MicaelS
(8,747 posts)Seriously believe herd immunity will protect them against the really major diseases. The only way they going to change is if there is an outbreak of a major disease, and bunch of THEIR un-vaccinated children die.
progressoid
(49,990 posts)Well, that makes soooo much more sense. Nice try Jenny.
SunSeeker
(51,559 posts)
Warpy
(111,261 posts)and think because she can do makeup and blather into a camera, she's intelligent and articulate.
She's done a lot of damage.
She needs to start actively trying to repair it.
But yeah, she's dumb as a stump.
Mondavi
(176 posts)NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Response to NuclearDem (Reply #6)
Post removed
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)The HPV vaccine doesn't cause autism, Congressman Bachmann.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)Kennedy, and the whole Gish Gallop. I don't think the poster wanted to leave any anti-vax routine out!
Also, multiple studies show Gardasil to be safe.
http://hpv.kegel.com/safety/
alp227
(32,025 posts)to the point you got a thread HIDDEN for doing so...http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024893695
By the way, that post with all those kooky website links has been hidden in a 5-2 jury decision.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)It wasn't me, though.
alp227
(32,025 posts)And the alerter left a VERY helpful message:
So much wrong with this post I can't even begin. Let's start with this one sentence from DU TOS: "Democratic Underground is not intended to be a platform for kooks and crackpots peddling paranoid fantasies with little or no basis in fact."
Sure, DU should discuss a wide range of views instead of knee-jerk censoring everything objectionable, but as DU TOS say, "discussions cannot stray too far into Crazyland (eg: chemtrails, black helicopters, 9/11 death rays or holograms..." Science has done enough research to the point where vaccine hysteria is in the same company as black helicopters or Bigfoot sightings; in fact Andrew Wakefield's formerly groundbreaking study that caused all the hysteria was retracted, and Wakefield was disgraced enough to lose his medical license.
I lack the time to do a totally comprehensive debunking of all info posted here, but I can guide you to understand that several sites linked here are of extremely low credibility or promote conspiracy theory, and should generally not be used as sources on DU (think TheBlaze.com or Infowars for instance).
- http://www.thelibertybeacon.com/ - publishes conspiracy theory garbage despite claiming to support "progressive" causes. For instance, "There is presently a massive conspiracy designed to separate you from your children and give the government complete control over your children." http://www.thelibertybeacon.com/2014/04/30/the-obama-youth-movement-the-seizing-of-american-children/ Also, this site seems to publish anti-Semitic POV's. http://www.thelibertybeacon.com/2014/03/11/confrontation-between-rothschild-and-vladimir-putin/
- Natural News promotes all sorts of pseudoscience whether in medicine or also in politics, including Sandy Hook denial (I'm not kidding, that website seriously argues the 2012 Sandy Hook school shooting was a HOAX.) http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/NaturalNews#Non-medical_conspiracy_theories
- Mercola is also a similarly cranky webshite. http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Mercola
- http://thecommonsenseshow.com/ seems to be a right wing libertarian site. Its site menu includes "Agenda 21" and "Martial Law" - in other words, showing the website to be a bunch of bullpucky. This website also asserts that Americans are becoming "Chinese property", another batshit & possibly racist conspiracy theory on the level of "Israel controls the US government". The website also talks about "the UN's plans to seize the Internet".
- Sherri Tenpenny, whose video is linked here, is a quack with questionable credentials: http://scientopia.org/blogs/whitecoatunderground/2009/12/30/damned-lies-and-idiots/
Now, I know some of you are gonna say, "well just put this in a reply!" and vote "LEAVE IT ALONE". But as I've taken the time to show you, a lot of these websites are so loony and off the rails that the heavy linking of those sites on DU is disruptive, rude, and over-the-top, by giving credence to paranoid fantasies with extremely limited basis in reality. We must realize that DU is not an "anything goes" forum and understand that there is a reason why DU ToS forbid certain ideas outta Crazyland.
JURY RESULTS
A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Fri May 9, 2014, 11:20 PM, and voted 5-2 to HIDE IT.
Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: This is, by far, the toughest "HIDE" I've ever meted out in a DU jury. I see a thousand reasons to HIDE it, but 999 reasons to let it stand and let members draw their own conclusions.
--Systematic Chaos
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: After attempting to find information on some of the links in the post, this came up:
Dr. Dalbergue’s story seems awfully like Dr. Harper’s. Except for the small fact that I can find no evidence that he ever worked for Merck (as opposed to Dr. Harper, who actually did, though not quite in the role she and the antivaccine world claimed). As far as I was able to uncover through sources and background checks, Dr. Dalbergue was the Directeur Medicale (Medical Director) of a drug distributor, Martin
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: My idea of liberal progressiveness has no room for irrational bullshit. That's the domain of conservative minds.
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Thank you.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Thanks for the results. 
Response to NuclearDem (Reply #307)
Name removed Message auto-removed
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)
Sid
Response to SidDithers (Reply #342)
Name removed Message auto-removed
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Or welcome back. Not sure which.
Response to NuclearDem (Reply #234)
Name removed Message auto-removed
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)greatauntoftriplets
(175,735 posts)NaturalNews
NaturalNews.com (formerly Newstarget) is an anti-science conspiracy website founded by Mike "the Health Ranger" Adams. The site promotes almost every sort of medical woo known to human history, though it specializes in vaccine denialism,[1] AIDS/HIV denial,[2] quack cancer medicine[3] and conspiracy theories about modern medicine.[4] Even other quacks think it's a quack site.[5] The site has recently broadened to include extreme environmentalism and conspiracy theorizing about Obama and gun control.
If you cite NaturalNews on any matter whatsoever, you are almost certainly wrong.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/NaturalNews
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Hekate
(90,690 posts)...Gardasil? That was a credible source 
If someone dies unexpectedly, the least the survivors can do is demand an autopsy. Are there autopsies? That's not something that is up to Big Pharma, you know -- it's a matter for the hospital and/or the County Coroner.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)
dflprincess
(28,078 posts)but it is hard to tell those two apart.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Hekate
(90,690 posts)....it's like fingernails on a chalkboard.
Both are horrid examples of humanity.
tritsofme
(17,378 posts)But anti-vaxers deserve to be shamed.
joeybee12
(56,177 posts)Mondavi
(176 posts)what Jim Carrey actually said about vaccines?
And what Dr. Bernadine Healy, former head of the National Institute of Health had to say?
The Judgment on Vaccines Is In???
We have never argued that people shouldn't be immunized for the most serious threats including measles and polio, but surely there's a limit as to how many viruses and toxins can be introduced into the body of a small child. Veterinarians found out years ago that in many cases they were over-immunizing our pets, a syndrome they call Vaccinosis. It overwhelmed the immune system of the animals, causing myriad physical and neurological disorders. Sound familiar? If you can over-immunize a dog, is it so far out to assume that you can over-immunize a child? These forward thinking vets also decided to remove thimerosal from animal vaccines in 1992, and yet this substance, which is 49% mercury, is still in human vaccines. Don't our children deserve as much consideration as our pets?
ttp://www.huffingtonpost.com/jim-carrey/the-judgment-on-vaccines_b_189777.html
Dr. Bernadine Healy, former head of the National Institute of Health:
Listen to the patients and the patients will teach...I think there is an inexcusable issue, and that's the lack of research that's been done here...A parent can legitimately question giving a one-day old baby, or a two-day old baby [the] Hepatitis B vaccine that has no risk for it [and] the mother has no risk for it. That's a heavy-duty vaccine given on day two [of life]. I think those are legitimate questions.
In all likelihood the truth about vaccines is that they are both good and bad. While ingredients like aluminum, mercury, ether, formaldehyde and anti-freeze may help preserve and enhance vaccines, they can be toxic as well. The assortment of viruses delivered by multiple immunizations may also be a hazard. I agree with the growing number of voices within the medical and scientific community who believe that vaccines, like every other drug, have risks as well as benefits and that for the sake of profit, American children are being given too many, too soon. One thing is certain. We don't know enough to announce that all vaccines are safe!
(Dr. Healy has also called for a study comparing the unvaccinated and the vaccinated which is long overdue.)
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)Mondavi
(176 posts)I'm surprised you aren't using her brain cancer as an argument
joeybee12
(56,177 posts)Jim is a crackpot about this as is his ex-main-squeeze.
Mondavi
(176 posts)You've simply continued on with personal attacks on both Carrey and McCarthy
joeybee12
(56,177 posts)to a human being, much less a dog or a cat..are you the agent for these two idiots?
Mondavi
(176 posts)shall I ask you if you are an "agent" for Big Pharma?
Thimerosol was banned in products for topical use due to cell damage a very long time ago.
Thimerosol was banned in animal vaccine products due to pressures from veterinarians long ago.
Thimerosol was eventually banned in vaccines due to pressures from the public.
Thimerosol is still in flu vaccines administered even to pregnant women.
Until fairly recently there have still been traces of Thimerosol in vaccines.
Replacing Thimerosol with Formaldehyde isn't either such a wonderful idea.
Nor is Aluminum in vaccines or the many other toxic substances.
Eli Lilly's knew by 1930's that Thimerosol was toxic
In the decades that followed, the evidence against thimerosal continued to mount. During the Second World War, when the Department of Defense used the preservative in vaccines on soldiers, it required Lilly to label it "poison." In 1967, a study in Applied Microbiology found that thimerosal killed mice when added to injected vaccines. Four years later, Lilly's own studies discerned that thimerosal was "toxic to tissue cells" in concentrations as low as one part per million — 100 times weaker than the concentration in a typical vaccine. Even so, the company continued to promote thimerosal as "nontoxic" and also incorporated it into topical disinfectants. In 1977, 10 babies at a Toronto hospital died when an antiseptic preserved with thimerosal was dabbed onto their umbilical cords.
But while public-health officials may have been well-intentioned, many of those on the CDC advisory committee who backed the additional vaccines had close ties to the industry. Dr. Sam Katz, the committee's chair, was a paid consultant for most of the major vaccine makers and shares a patent on a measles vaccine with Merck, which also manufactures the hepatitis B vaccine. Dr. Neal Halsey, another committee member, worked as a researcher for the vaccine companies and received honoraria from Abbott Labs for his research on the hepatitis B vaccine.
Indeed, in the tight circle of scientists who work on vaccines, such conflicts of interest are common. Rep. Burton says that the CDC "routinely allows scientists with blatant conflicts of interest to serve on intellectual advisory committees that make recommendations on new vaccines," even though they have "interests in the products and companies for which they are supposed to be providing unbiased oversight." The House Government Reform Committee discovered that four of the eight CDC advisors who approved guidelines for a rotavirus vaccine laced with thimerosal "had financial ties to the pharmaceutical companies that were developing different versions of the vaccine."
Still, some government officials were alarmed by the apparent conflicts of interest. In his e-mail to CDC administrators in 1999, Paul Patriarca of the FDA blasted federal regulators for failing to adequately scrutinize the danger posed by the added baby vaccines. "I'm not sure there will be an easy way out of the potential perception that the FDA, CDC and immunization-policy bodies may have been asleep at the switch re: thimerosal until now," Patriarca wrote. The close ties between regulatory officials and the pharmaceutical industry, he added, "will also raise questions about various advisory bodies regarding aggressive recommendations for use" of thimerosal in child vaccines.
http://www.icnr.com/articles/thimerosalcoverup.html
joeybee12
(56,177 posts)think logically, FFS.
Mondavi
(176 posts)Your logic unfortunately didn't stop you from suggesting that I'm an "agent" for Carrey or McCarthy, did it?
Thimerosol kills living cells. That's always been known.
Try to move away from the attacks and deal with the issue.
Liberal Veteran
(22,239 posts)It would hardly be useful as an antiseptic ingredient if it didn't kill things that cause INFECTION.
Mondavi
(176 posts)in a Canadian hospital, I believe, after being applied to the umbibical cords.
And it was banned from over the counter drugs.
Liberal Veteran
(22,239 posts)You would think that since the thimerosal was ubiquitous in medicine cabinets and hospitals for decades as an antiseptic prior to 1977 someone would have noticed something much sooner. I'm sure babies and kids with cuts and scrapes were dropping dead by the millions between 1931 and 1998 after mom put some merthiolate on the cut, right?
But why bring logic and reason into this discussion?
Mondavi
(176 posts)Everyone knew sooner, but Eli Lilly continued to lie about Thimerosol being "non-toxic."
They knew since the 1930's that Thimerosol was harmful
And I believe that was the incident which caused the over the counter products to be banned.
Do your own google search.
Liberal Veteran
(22,239 posts)I even searched for footnotes.
But you still haven't addressed how something so ubiquitous and so toxic wasn't causing kids and infants to drop dead by the millions in the decades it was used.
Mondavi
(176 posts)secured by Congress. That's what they "circle back to."
And to the Verstratten Report which was presented at the Simpsonwood Retreat in GA.
Robert Kennedy is REPORTING the info contained in the FOIA documents.
I think I'll leave YOU to address why the over the counter products with Thimerosol were banned by government. Though, it would seem clear that application to an umbibical cord could have caused the Thimerosol to directly enter the bloodstream.
Again, there were many reports over decades of the problems with Thimerosol and those problems and the studies are reviewed in articles on Eli Lilly. Eli Lilly worked to hide the information so that Thimerosol would continue to be used especially in vaccines which was profitable for them.
Liberal Veteran
(22,239 posts)The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) removed it from the "generally recognized as safe" and into the 'untested' classification to effectively halt its distribution in the United States in 1998 over fears of potential mercury poisoning.
What one might call an overabundance of caution.
This despite the fact that most of us of a certain age still remember the unpleasant sting of having merthiolate applied to every cut and scrape without falling over dead.
Hekate
(90,690 posts)All four of us survived and showed no signs of brain damage -- or death.
Archae
(46,328 posts)A whole page devoted to testimonials, and any true medical professional will tell you testimonials are worthless.
http://www.icnr.com/testimonials.html
wercal
(1,370 posts)...and likely I will wait a long time.
Here's the skinny on vaccinations (which everybody already knows):
Yes, there is a small danger to the patient every single time a vaccine is given.
But the statistics of the matter point to a larger good, for the entire group (herd), when the maximum number of people possible are vaccinated.
It really shouldn't be that controversial.
Mondavi
(176 posts)a chicken pox vaccine which there was no medical need or demand for
which is creating an epidemic of shingles cases.
According to the CDC 1 in 3 people will now get shingles
Shingles is a much more serious condition than chicken pox.
Suddenly we are to believe everything that corporations say about vaccines despite the many questions around the issue. On every other issue from Genetic manipulation of food by Monsanto with FDA advocating for Monsanto we understand the perils. And there are many issues where corporations are dictating to our government agencies rather than the other way around because the wealth of these corporations buys influence over our government.
Liberal Veteran
(22,239 posts)It is reactivation of the varicella-zoster after getting chicken pox years earlier.
How on earth does preventing chicken pox result in MORE cases of shingles?
Mondavi
(176 posts)that natural chicken pox immunity is boosted by exposure to children who have active natural chicken pox?
When the vaccine is used, this boosting no longer occurs in those with natural immunity.
It is this boosting of the immunity which keeps shingles at bay.
Shingles used to be rare and certainly didn't occur in young people.
That's no longer the case.
Liberal Veteran
(22,239 posts)If you don't get the virus that causes chicken pox, you don't get shingles.
Mondavi
(176 posts)that for those who have had natural cases of chicken pox, the immunity is boosted when adults are exposed to children with active natural cases of chicken pox.
You may not like that information, but it is fact.
Adults are no longer being exposed to children with active cases of chicken pox.
That immunity kept shingles at bay.
Liberal Veteran
(22,239 posts)As the population of people who NEVER had chicken pox increases, the cases of shingles will drop to almost non-existent.
No more chicken pox eventually means no more shingles.
Funny how that works, isn't it?
Mondavi
(176 posts)If you're suggesting that the boosting of natural immunity in chicken pox doesn't occur by adult exposure to children with active cases of chicken pox, I'd like to see that info.
Thank you.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Your suggested course of action means shingles stays around FOREVER.
Mondavi
(176 posts)ANY course of action.
(And perhaps you did when you asked me if I wanted you to get chicken pox so you could increase the boosting effect of adult immunity? In that case you have greatly misunderstood.)
It is the CDC which is telling you that we now have an epidemic of Shingles and that 1 in 3 people will get Shingles and that it will continue on for 50 years.
It's is nature which has decided these facts, not I.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)At least, not at high enough rates.
Yes, we are 'removing' a protective effect for them, by eliminating childhood chickenpox. That's not a problem, if you take appropriate measures for the people already exposed.
You seem to be arguing that there is some sort of duty to get chickenpox as a kid to confer protective boost to older people who also had it as a child. If that isn't your position, ok, but that's sure what it sounds like. You have essentially cast eliminating childhood chickenpox in a negative light, because of the lack of boost for elderly post-chickenpox carriers of shingles.
Mondavi
(176 posts)First, chicken pox wasn't a problem which required a vaccine
Second, The vaccine has now caused a need for yet another vaccine for Shingles
Third, people who get natural chicken pox have lifetime immunity vs 6 or fewer years with the vaccine and those who take the vaccine are now going to be required to take a second booster dose because the chicken pox vaccine isn't as effective in actual use as it was said to be.
The fact that chicken pox isn't a problem for children but that Shingles is a problem at every age doesn't seem a worthwhile trade off, especially that we are now facing an epidemic of Shingles which can be quite serious.
I'm not arguing that anyone has a "duty" to get chicken pox. That's ridiculous.
It is NATURE's system that I am describing to you and it is a system which kept Shingles at bay.
The chicken pox vaccine is certainly be viewed in a negative light as the disease wasn't a problem in children and because it has now created an epidemic of a more serious disease.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)The vaccine hasn't 'caused' that, the lack of people catching chicken pox caused it. You are mis-casting the issue.
I'm ok with booster doses. I go in for diphtheria/tetanus often enough anyway. No biggie.
"I'm not arguing that anyone has a "duty" to get chicken pox. That's ridiculous."
YET, you are calling out a lack of childhood chicken pox in a negative light. That sounds like doublethink.
Nature's 'system' is humans dying, mostly of their teeth, in caves at about age 30, so color me unimpressed.
Mondavi
(176 posts)The vaccine has caused an epidemic of shingles in people of all ages.
It isn't only the elderly who are getting shingles; now shingles is being seen among the young, adults, and older adults.
But this is the conclusion from your link:
We agree with the conclusion of Rawson et al that, although deaths in adults from chickenpox have increased in number and proportion, this does not justify mass immunisation with varicella vaccine.2-1
Additionally, one final try on your upside down view of what nature intended which I am relating to you. When you disturb nature's systems there can be unintended consequences, such as shingles.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Long-term the vaccine is a SOLUTION to both shingles and chickenpox.
Done and done.
Your anti-vax bullshit doesn't scare me at all.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
octoberlib
(14,971 posts)Here are some hard facts for the autism debate laid out in a simple-to-hear format. If you want the truth about vaccines and autism, you should hear everything this guy says. Because the facts are important if we ever hope to solve the mystery of what causes this disorder.
http://www.upworthy.com/autism-has-increased-like-373-in-14-years-so-here-are-some-things-you-need-to-know-about-vaccines?c=slt1
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Also, a 'problem' with a separate vaccine for people who were exposed, and carry risk for shingles.
giftedgirl77
(4,713 posts)provide nothing to back this statement up. Do you have any proof or did Jenny tell you this?
Mondavi
(176 posts)Those who have gained natural lifetime immunity from chicken pox have their immunity boosted with exposure to children with active (natural) cases of chicken pox. This process keeps shingles at bay.
Shingles is a far more serious condition than chicken pox
Since the chicken pox vaccine
the rate of shingles infection has increased as adults are less exposed to infected children (which would otherwise help protect against shingles).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varicella_vaccine
And since the chicken pox vaccine we have an epidemic of shingles
www.cdc.gov/.../shi...?
United States Centers for Disease Control and Preve...
Dec 13, 2013 - Almost 1 out of 3 people in America will develop shingles during their lifetime. Your risk increases as you get older. People 60 years of age or ...
The vaccine is providing a questionable temporary immunity of 6 years but due to failure rates it is now being recommended that the original chicken pox vaccine dose be increased to a booster of a second dose.
giftedgirl77
(4,713 posts)One can't get shingles from a person with chicken pox & there is a vaccine for shingles as well.
http://www.m.webmd.com/skin-problems-and-treatments/tc/shingles-topic-overview
Mondavi
(176 posts)and how the natural immunity is boosted in those who have had natural chicken pox.
It is that lifetime immunity and its "boosting" which keeps shingles at bay.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)their post-chicken pox immunity to prevent an occurrence of shingles?
Sorry, I'm not your petri dish. I am perfectly happy never having, nor shall I have, ever contracted chicken pox in the first place.
Mondavi
(176 posts)At the latest 10 years old?
Because chicken pox in older people can be a problem.
The reality is that children no longer have active cases of natural chicken pox which works to boost the immunity of adults who have had chicken pox. Thereby increasing the number of people who will have cases of Shingles which are much more serious than chicken pox.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)And I will apparently never catch it.
Which means, I do not have shingles inhabiting my nerve sheaths. And I have no interest in ever having such.
Mondavi
(176 posts)and hope that "I will apparently never catch it" will work out for you.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Why not.
Mondavi
(176 posts)but it would seem odd that you never had chicken pox; perhaps a very mild case?
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)has a natural immunity to some or perhaps all types of herpes simplex viruses. I am similarly immune to cold sores, etc.
Blood bank loves me; I'm not just pathogen free-low risk, I'm also O-Negative.
HockeyMom
(14,337 posts)I must RUN OUT right now and get my Shingles Vac or I will be in HORRIBLE pain and die. My husband nearly DIED from Shingles last year. NOT.
You can rant all you want about "the children" but you can do NOTHING about an adult. Herd/SHEEP mentality.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Shingles sounds pretty miserable, at least in some cases, but yes, not much of a threat.
When I hit 60 I might start taking the vaccine for it. Earlier if my doctor credibly recommends it.
Liberal Veteran
(22,239 posts)This person on the other hand might have a different opinion.
HockeyMom
(14,337 posts)looked anything like that. My parents never got shingles.
Liberal Veteran
(22,239 posts)Where it presents, when it presents, how much pain and discomfort it causes, if it even presents, how long it lasts, if your nerves get damaged in the process.
Very unpredictable. Most folks say it wasn't at all pleasant for them. I'm about at the age I should start talking to my doctor about it (I had chicken pox as a child and I have HIV disease and heart disease). I'd rather not find out what flavor of shingles presents for me, so if the vaccine is safe for me, I'll take it.
Dorian Gray
(13,496 posts)is an interesting technique.
I tested negative for chicken pox antibodies despite having a very mild case when I was five. I'm presuming I have little chance to get shingles, too. But I will talk to my medical doctors to see what they recommend.
I'm not going to mock people who do choose to get vaccines and who are careful.
demigoddess
(6,641 posts)way back in the 50s and 60s about people who died of shingles. So perhaps this really is not something new due to the chicken pox vaccine.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)The anti-vaccine movement invents a new attack, such as this one almost daily.
Hekate
(90,690 posts)
mzmolly
(50,992 posts)Shush! You'll rattle the cult.
monmouth3
(3,871 posts)
pnwmom
(108,978 posts)And mercury is out of most vaccines now, at least partly because of concerns expressed by people like her.
There was never a critical need for mercury and it is a known toxin. Also, they acknowledged that because of receiving multiple vaccines on a single day, many children were receiving more than the intended maximum dose. That doesn't happen any longer.
monmouth3
(3,871 posts)Archae
(46,328 posts)Would you handle or eat sodium or chlorine?
Obviously no.
But the compound is common salt.
It is the same way with mercury compounds like thimerosal. (sp?)
It's hysterics like Jenny McCarthy and Andrew Wakefield who still push this "vaccines cause autism" woo, and now McCarthy is furiously backpedaling from her stupid claims, since she is responsible for convincing parents not to get their kids vaccinated.
And that will hurt her in the wallet.
I know a family, personally.
Two parents, both born in the 1930's.
They had 5 kids.
The kids have had 7 grandchildren.
The grandchildren have had 7 great-grandchildren.
Every member of the family, starting with the parents in the 1940's got vaccinated.
There are *NO* autistic kids in the entire family. None.
How do I know all this?
It's my family.
pnwmom
(108,978 posts)and they all got the DPT vaccine. Every one.
Only one died, my baby sister at the age of 6 months. Within hours after her 3rd DPT, she went into convulsions, was taken to the hospital, and died.
Years later, my mother found out that her own cousin had died after a DPT vaccine and another cousin was permanently paralyzed. They were told they'd gotten a "bad batch" of the vaccine.
When your family has been touched by a vaccine injury, it doesn't help to hear how rare the vaccine reactions are. You just want to make sure no one else has a needless reaction. Fortunately, thanks to parents who campaigned for a safer vaccine, the current DPT vaccine is a safer one -- a split cell instead of a whole cell vaccine.
And fortunately, because of other parents, the unnecessary mercury has been taken out of most childhood vaccines.
Archae
(46,328 posts)Not one had that reaction.
None.
So it does sound genetic, in the *VERY* *RARE* cases of really bad reactions like the ones in your family.
pnwmom
(108,978 posts)with rare but serious or fatal reactions to know that the reactions are very rare. In a way, it makes it seem even worse -- for them.
And yes, it does sound genetic, which is exactly what some people were worried about with autism -- that some children, like Hannah Poling (whose autism symptoms the Vaccine Court decided was brought on by multiple vaccines) are genetically susceptible to a reaction -- and that we don't know who those children will be till it's too late to help them.
One of the things we should be doing is researching which, if any, subgroups may be particularly susceptible to damage from a vaccine, rather than insisting that the rare reactions don't matter because they're rare. They matter a hell of a lot to the families involved.
Dorian Gray
(13,496 posts)and I am very sorry for the tragic losses your family suffered.
HockeyMom
(14,337 posts)They were not vaccinated against Measles, Mumps, Rubella, or Chicken Pox because these vacs were not invented in the 1940s. In all likelyhood they HAD all the diseases as children. Do you think all adults should be vaccinated for them anyway too?
Archae
(46,328 posts)Whether it was in the 40's, 50's or 60's.
My Mom told me stories about polio outbreaks, she dreaded summer because of those.
HockeyMom
(14,337 posts)you will get a mutated strain of measles. That is even worse. Look that up. Again, you think everyone even those who had the diseases need to be vaccinated against them? Seriously?
Edit: I started school in 1954. I remember a nurse coming into the classroom and asking those who had meales to raise their hands. Almost everyone had them. She then said we would NOT be given the measles vaccine if we had already had measles.
Oh, no, EVERYBODY must be vaccinated for "herd immunity". You will not only kill the children, you will kill poor GRANNY too. lol Well, this Granny says "suck any egg".
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)It is in this: the principle of the defining element. The three things you are describing are not related but are completely different. Mercury is far more toxic than chlorine and sodium. (After all you would let your child swim in a pool where the pool water contains chlorine, but health authorities would not let people swim in a body of wter where there is worrisome levels of mercury.
Mercury was known and shown by a new group of scientists throughout the thirties and forties as having NO SAFE amount. Period. (This group of scientists was attempting to let the older group understand that the use of mercury as a "remedy for an illness" was a terrible idea.)
It was considered by these scientists as an outrage to the human body's health to have mercury inflicted upon it.
Both sodium and chlorine have safe amounts. Mercury has none.
There may have been a need for mercury in earlier times, as although it was extremely toxic, it was also all the treatment that the more primitive medical establishment had against certain diseases. For instance, to treat syphilis, all that doctors had in late 1800's and early 1900's, was mercury. Without any treatment, the infected patient would die, so the risk of using that remedy was all that the med establishment could offer. Today no doctor uses mercury to treat syphilis - as antibiotics are in use that are more effective and far far less deadly.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)mzmolly
(50,992 posts)would you want it in vaccines?
Is it ever okay to question anything at all, about vaccines?
tclambert
(11,086 posts)Meanwhile, polio is making a comeback. It used to be found in the wild in only 3 countries, and it was close to eradication in one of those. Now it's in 10 countries.
pnwmom
(108,978 posts)and her son was born in 2002. So he could have been exposed.
Also, the research about thimerosal was still going on when her son was diagnosed in 2005. There was enough question about this that the CDC reported a study as late as September 2010.
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/thimerosal/thimerosal_timeline.html
2010
September 13. Results of a CDC study do not support an association between prenatal and infant exposure to vaccines and immunoglobulins that contain thimerosal and an increased risk for autism spectrum disorder (ASD).
2009
February 1. Results of an Italian study were reassuring that immunization in infancy with thimerosal-containing vaccines does not decrease neuropsychological performance later in childhood.
2007
September 27. Results of a CDC study do not support an association between early exposure to thimerosal in vaccines and neuropsychological problems in children between the ages of 7 and 10 years.
July 7. CDC issues a statement on autism and thimerosal that states in part "Some people believe increased exposure to thimerosal (from the addition of important vaccines recommended for children) explains the higher prevalence [of autism] in recent years. However, evidence from several studies examining trends in vaccine use and changes in autism frequency does not support such an association.
tclambert
(11,086 posts)You can't say she retroactively helped get it removed by complaining about it 4 years after it was removed. But she did push lots of parents to refuse vaccinations of their children. Result? Measles cases up. Autism cases . . . still up.
And the cause(s) of autism? Still unknown, but strongly suspected to be genetic and present before birth.
pnwmom
(108,978 posts)vaccines in 2002 containing thimerosal, and that that might have been connected with his autism. Scientific researchers were still studying the possibility when he was diagnosed in 2005 and as late as 2010.
(See post #13.)
tclambert
(11,086 posts)pnwmom
(108,978 posts)the worried mother?
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)What she did was harmful. Ignorance is no excuse.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)Yet, this piece shows an abundance of research showing thimerosal to be safe, all published before that time.
http://www.chop.edu/service/vaccine-education-center/vaccine-safety/vaccine-ingredients/thimerosal.html
sabbat hunter
(6,829 posts)Pakistan is seeing a rise due to Islamic fundamentalists campaigning against it saying it is a western plot to control them.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)and did vaccinations while surreptitiously looking for the trail of Bin Ladin (and, in fact, finding it eventually). MSF was pissed, and was right to be.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/jul/14/cia-fake-vaccination-medecins-frontieres
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)In these vaccines where there was an attempt to remove the mercury, there is now formaldehyde.
If you know any organic chemists, ask them how far down from the "table of harm" formaldehyde is in terms of mercury's placement inside that table.
If I remember correctly, radiation is number one in terms of harm.
Benzene is two
Mercury is three
MTBE is four
and then comes formaldehyde, at spot number five on this table.
So the "vaccine experts" have removed a significantly toxic element, that is, the mercury inside the Thimerosal vaccines, yet then replaced the Thimerosal with another significantly harmful element.
But by doing this, it allowed the vaccine industry to do something they knew they needed to do: they could then set up a sham "study" that purported to show that there was never any harm to children or infants, in terms of autism, on account of the mercury.
Since most Americans wouldn't know the idea of "benefit to risk" if it came up and bit them in the butt, the vaccine industry could then make sure the Talking Heads and Main$tream media blared continuously for weeks the notion that "A new study proves once and for all that mercury in vaccines had nothing to do with huge numbers of children and infants who had the Thimerosal shots then developing autism."
But any study that has at the very heart of its design the selection of a group of human beings who have been injected with one high risk toxin, then compared to a group of human beings who have undergone being innoculated with a shot containing almost an equal amount of an equally dangerous substance, is a totally flawed study.
Liberal Veteran
(22,239 posts)So you are suggesting that researchers deliberately removed thimerosal and replaced it with a pathological equivalent in order to cover their own asses?
Really?
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)Even the scary sounding chemical, dihydrogen oxide, is toxic if the exposure levels are high enough. Calling something toxic in order to scare people is meaningless if one doesn't consider the exposure level.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)It's the thing that drives me nuts about DU.
Mondavi
(176 posts)and also think there are still traces of Thimersol in vaccines.
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)And our beloved "experts" at the CDC are insisting that pregnant women get the flu vaccine!
I remember back int he fifties, that Salk was saying that it was important that pregnant women not be innoculated with vaccines (unless when absolutely necessary, like you were pregnant and about to travel to some third world nation.)
And he made that statement back in the day, when the vaccine labs were models of hygiene and not the sewers of bacterial matter, fungal debris, and viral contamination that they are today.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)BTW, post 78 debunks all of the nonsense in that post.
"There was never a critical need for mercury" -- yes there in fact was. Although mercury is now out of the vaccine supply (mostly) in the developed world, thermisol is a vital preservative. Newer vaccines are MUCH more fragile and expensive, for no good reason.
and it is a known toxin -- again, wrong. There is no data supporting thermisol as a toxin. That's a bit like equating water and rocket fuel. They both contain hydrogen, but are not the same chemical.
pnwmom
(108,978 posts)that there was no critical need for it, at least in the US.
Just the drug company's need to save a few pennies a dose.
Mercury in the form of thimerosal is still a toxin. That has never been the question and is why the FDA had set limits of how much thimerosal could be in a vaccine. If it wasn't a known toxin, the CDC and the FDA wouldn't have funded all those studies to see if it could be implicated in autism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiomersal
Toxicology[edit]
Thiomersal is very toxic by inhalation, ingestion, and in contact with skin (EC hazard symbol T+), with a danger of cumulative effects. It is also very toxic to aquatic organisms and may cause long-term adverse effects in aquatic environments (EC hazard symbol N).[14] In the body, it is metabolized or degraded to ethylmercury (C2H5Hg+) and thiosalicylate.[6]
Cases have been reported of severe poisoning by accidental exposure or attempted suicide, with some fatalities.[15] Animal experiments suggest that thiomersal rapidly dissociates to release ethylmercury after injection; that the disposition patterns of mercury are similar to those after exposure to equivalent doses of ethylmercury chloride; and that the central nervous system and the kidneys are targets, with lack of motor coordination being a common sign. Similar signs and symptoms have been observed in accidental human poisonings. The mechanisms of toxic action are unknown. Fecal excretion accounts for most of the elimination from the body. Ethylmercury clears from blood with a half-life of about 18 days in adults. Ethylmercury is eliminated from the brain in about 14 days in infant monkeys. Risk assessment for effects on the nervous system have been made by extrapolating from dose-response relationships for methylmercury.[16] Methylmercury and ethylmercury distributes to all body tissues, crossing the blood–brain barrier and the placental barrier, and ethylmercury also moves freely throughout the body.[17] Concerns based on extrapolations from methylmercury caused thiomersal to be removed from U.S. childhood vaccines, starting in 1999. Since then, it has been found that ethylmercury is eliminated from the body and the brain significantly faster than methylmercury, so the late-1990s risk assessments turned out to be overly conservative.[16] Though inorganic mercury metabolized from ethylmercury has a much longer half-life in the brain, at least 120 days, it appears to be much less toxic than the inorganic mercury produced from mercury vapor, for reasons not yet understood.[
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)Alas, this basic scientific concept is lost on too many of our fellow humans.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)She's changing her tune. People are pointing out the ACTUAL song she was singing in the past.
Deal with it.
Mondavi
(176 posts)You're in denial.
We should be asking why the vaccine industry is so threatened by any questions about vaccines. Because many Americans are asking those questions.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)The vaccines are and probably will remain a risk for the foreseeable future. There are mechanisms, including insurance funds maintained by the vaccine producing companies to mitigate the INCREDIBLY RARE bad side effects/reactions.
There is no fucking link to autism. Thimerosal wasn't causing any problems, as we can see now that it is gone from all but the multi-dose vials.
There is a clear personal and public health benefit by our vaccination programs. FAR outweighs the currently provable risks.
pnwmom
(108,978 posts)the problems, but we did know that the maximum dose allowed by the FDA was being exceeded because children were receiving multiple vaccines on a single day. That's why the FDA had mercury taken out of most childhood vaccines.
Hindsight is always 20/20. Her concerns, as the mother of a child diagnosed then with autism syndrome, were understandable.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)There were non-vaccinating control groups that we knew about the whole time, that also had autism.
The whole 'thimerosal' thing was nothing more than a rumor. A rumor that burned up quite a lot of development time in labs, studies, etc. An issue that now is influencing vaccination rates in the negative.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. There was no evidence for the anti-vax claims, then or now, with the exception of Wakefield's 'study', which looked obviously flawed from the get-go, and turned out to be utter fraud.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)The evidence that mercury might be an issue was always minute, with the evidence against it far greater. By the time she campaigned, no legitimate scientist thought mercury was an issue.
Liberal Veteran
(22,239 posts)....but it suddenly became an issue in 1998.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)Conspiracies could suddenly play in the same place as actual science and evidence.
Mondavi
(176 posts)Liberal Veteran
(22,239 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)My mom used it on me. That can was ANCIENT too. 'mercurial ointment'
Hell, I probably ate some too.
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)Considered that particular defense of her actions, but it is a decent defense.
McCarthy is, I believe, also highly aware of the fact that formaldehyde, used as the replacement for the mercury, is not acceptable as a substitute.
Liberal Veteran
(22,239 posts)
All organic life forms – bacteria, plants, fish, animals and humans – naturally produce
formaldehyde as a consequence of the processes in cell metabolism.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Which your body then breaks down into formaldehyde in your bloodstream.
But yes, it amounts to the same thing.
You need to drink about 6 cans of diet coke to hork down enough aspartame to generate the same amount of formaldehyde your body creates from a single, delicious, organic apple.
Liberal Veteran
(22,239 posts)I was going to use a glass of orange juice as my example for the whole methanol, formaldehyde, formic acid process, but then I considered my target audience. 
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Some of us remember chemistry class, back in the day. 
Mondavi
(176 posts)Additionally, when nature puts something we might consider harmful into natural foods there is usually something also included to wipe out the effect.
This vaccine "talking point" needs more exploration as it seems a bit of woo.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)BY EATING A FUCKING PEAR.
Pears contain methanol. Your body breaks methanol down into formaldehyde.
Mondavi
(176 posts)well past the time our parents are told to introduce solid foods.
Again, this sounds like a lot of woo and needs more exploration.
And, certainly, the long list of toxic substances contained in vaccines wins out over the threat of a pear. And again the vaccines are injected into newborns.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Mondavi
(176 posts)vulgarity and maybe no one will notice that the pear woo is still woo?
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)I completely reject your nonsense about feeding schedules.
MattBaggins
(7,904 posts)All you deserve is lol
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)Mondavi
(176 posts)There are quite a very very malicious comments about JMc on this thread intended to create hatred for her. Rather, we need to examine the issue, not the messenger.
Side effects of our medicines aren't rare and they can be very damaging.
We certainly have corruption in the drug industry and in our agencies which allegedly regulate and govern them.
You might also read the comments following this article up at Common Dreams
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2014/05/05-6
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Especially in the context of her walking back her earlier claims, which may have convinced parents to make bad decisions that negatively affected the health of their children.
Sorry, one does not walk away from that sort of thing with an unscathed reputation.
Mondavi
(176 posts)it's impossible to respond to you
Are you talking about the measles vaccine? You do know that parents were opting to chose the single dose and were doing that for years when the government withdrew the single dose?
This left parents with no option but to use the multi-dose.
And you are still in denial of the many, many vicious personal comments on this thread.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Multi-dose in this case is not referring to the combination of MMR (versus monovalent (which appears to be what you meant) measles, mumps, rubella), but rather the conveyance, in this case, a multi-dose glass bottle, rather than a single dose. The multi-dose (for hopefully obvious safety reasons) has additional preservatives that the single-dose combined MMR does not have.
A single dose combined MMR is absolutely available in the US. My neighbors (Strong anti-vaxxers) just did it for their kid last week, hoping to avoid thimerosal exposure. Merck's M-M-R® II (MEASLES, MUMPS, and RUBELLA VIRUS VACCINE LIVE) is absolutely available in a single-dose vial, that is reconstituted on demand and entirely preservative free.
The 'government' didn't withdraw anything with regards to the monovalent vaccines, they made a recommendation, and the maker's have followed the recommendation.
Mondavi
(176 posts)The combination MMR was what Wakefield called attention to as a possible problem, if I recall correctly and recommended the single Measles dose. The concerns were based on introducing three diseases at one time. At the time in UK, the single Measles dose was available and remained available for a number of years and parents chose the single Measles dose. After a few years the single Measles dose though being requested by parents was discontinued by the UK government.
The preservative Thimerosol was used in vaccines to increase shelf life and profits.
Though there were other safer and slightly more costly choices.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Another is preventing sickening people by preventing the multi-dose vial from becoming contaminated.
So yes, we were referring to different things. When I said multi-dose, I meant the combined, multi-dose-per-bottle version.
There is NO peer reviewed study that shows the monovalent versions are in any way safer than the combined. (multi-dose is not the correct term)
There IS evidence that duplicate injections is NOT a problem. For instance, if you received a monovalent MMR vaccine, and NOW have to take a combined vaccine because the monovalent is no longer available, it is a proven non-problem to expose the person to a second dose of whichever of the three vaccines he or she already got.
PROVEN. Actually studied. Standard practice.
Mondavi
(176 posts)Obviously if your child came down with three different diseases at the same time it would be more serious than just one. And we don't know about "studies" actually because unless the studies are positive we have every chance of NOT finding out about them.
Let's just call MMR the combination, but the Measles single vaccine was called "the single dose."
It is up to the parents to decide what they think is safe for their children and they are doing all they can to study the issue from what I read.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)That's the 'divorced' version, measles, or mumps, or rubella by itself.
Parents don't conduct multi-decadal studies across tens of thousands of hospitals. They rely upon the studies by others.
Why is it that you seem to accept that when the parents are searching, but not when the vaccine manufacturers are selecting which product to carry, even from a variety of cost-benefit metrics?
Again, there is no study that shows the combined vaccine is a problem.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)Do you not understand any of this stuff on an actual, human, science-based level?
Mondavi
(176 posts)and certainly not done to limit any pain for the child.
It is done to increase profits for the drug industry.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)pisses you off, doesn't it?
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)Thank you.
bullying a crackpot "celebrity" on a supposedly educated political discussion forum? are you serious?
the person is dangerous and should probably be prosecuted, bullying on the interwebs is the least of her problems
Liberal Veteran
(22,239 posts)Many Americans also believe global warming is a hoax.
Many Americans also believe in astrology, chemtrails, faked moon landings, lizard people, President Obama is a Kenyan Muslim.
I could go on all day, but what the science is pretty clear on vaccines and it doesn't matter what anyone says or does, there is nothing that will convince your proverbial "many Americans" otherwise.
Example: Thimerosal causes autism! Thimerosal is removed and autism rates go up. Move goalpost. It's the timing of vaccines! Lather, rinse, repeat, ad absurdum.
Iggo
(47,553 posts)
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)except perhaps in your mind. Last time I checked Jenny Mccarthy is not a member of DU.
Arkana
(24,347 posts)
Supersedeas
(20,630 posts)Accountability amounts to an infringement on entitlement to some people
For instance, white privilege and accountability...think about it.
Mondavi
(176 posts)there are some very hateful comments on this thread about Jenny McCarthy which certainly aren't intended to encourage any real thinking on the issue but to encourage lashing out and hatred for McCarthy.
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)Mondavi
(176 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)advice (in combination with, or in parallel with bad info from OTHER unqualified talking heads just like her.).
We are seeing resurgence of diseases at rates that so far cannot be explained by any other mechanism outside the anti-vax movement.
And NOW we see her trying to distance herself from the anti-vax statements she made as if she never made them.
Poor form.
Mondavi
(176 posts)but the vaccine has created an epidemic of shingles which is a more serious condition.
Plus, if we were talking about any other corporations other than the drug industry, there would be skepticism and rightly so. Because our government is heavily involved in sponsoring and pushing vaccines, the issue gets a protective veneer. Yet, we've seen also that our government agencies have been completely corrupted by corporate influence/money and that is also true of those agencies which allegedly regulate the drug industry.
Further, there are tremendous exaggerations about these childhood diseases. Chicken pox is not the first childhood disease where there was no call for a vaccine.
Here's a link to an article up at Common Dreams now showing dire concerns about a new uprising of polio. Yet, if you follow down to the comments you will see that the public isn't necessarily buying what the government and drug companies are saying. That's true for many reasons, including the past history (as confirmed by Salk) where the very first polio injections were contaminated: (http://www.commondreams.org/view/2014/05/08-9)
we who got those first Salk injections were also KNOWINGLY contaminated with the cancerous SV40 (simian virus), Dr. Salk later admitted this on the record....
and from another poster:-
I'm always cautious of those who push vaccines. Gates comes to mind.
http://nsnbc.me/2013/05/08/bil...
http://www.nvic.org/vaccines-a...
http://www.nvic.org/nvic-vacci...
http://childhealthsafety.wordp...
http://www.mamaeve.com/caring-...
http://www.naturalnews.com/031...
http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/p...
Generally, the cause of disease is poor living conditions, sanitation, health care.
When government works to improve those conditions we see less illness.
Additionally, the polio epidemic in the US was preceded by heavy use of DDT spraying.
What's working on this thread is simply more effort to push emotion over thought.
Dr. Wakefield recommended that there not be three vaccines administered at one time (MMR)
but rather that the measles vaccine be given singly. At that time in the UK the government had a single vaccine for measles. Parents chose the single vaccine, but after a few years the government discontinued the single vaccine and that is when parents in the UK began to reject the MMR vaccine.
You might also recall this:
Published on Friday, May 9, 2014 by Common Dreams
Pakistan: CIA's Fake Vaccination Ploy to Hunt Bin Laden Sparked Polio Epidemic
Foreign Ministry spokesperson says CIA's 2011 plot has sparked hostility to vaccination drives and hampered efforts to stem outbreak of highly infectious disease
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2014/05/09-5
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)So, we're done here, because you can't be honest about this issue.
Mondavi
(176 posts)I've looked at your link and again chicken pox is not a serious condition for children who experience the natural disease at ages usually from 6 to 10 years. It is children who are already ill who are threatened by the disease. But again, there was no call for a chicken pox vaccine.
If there is dishonesty it is your failure to acknowledge those facts.
However, I'm just as pleased to move on from responding to your posts.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)So, yeah, we are done here. Peddle your bullshit elsewhere.
Mondavi
(176 posts)Yep, that's pretty "long term"
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Heaven fucking forfend we actually cure some diseases.
GTFO
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)They destroy anyone in their way, and so often people accept their lies until their own child is paralyzed, becomes autistic or dies.
Then and only then do they understand what friggin' liars the Big Pharma people are.
I include myself in the category of being brainwashed by BigPahrma, even having to admit that although I suffered Guillaume Barre Syndrome (GBS) from the swine flu vaccine in the 1970's, I still believed without any doubts in the vaccines.
Then after being placed in a position wherein some of the world's top researchers were continually available to me, and I found out how often the people who have concerns about vaccines while working or Big Pharma, they get blacklisted and their careers are destroyed, then and only then did I change my mind.
And no one I know personally is saying "Never vaccinate a child for anything." Instead it is about benefit to risk. When, as is the case of the hep vaccine for newborns, the risks to the baby far outweigh any benefit, why have the vaccine? Why risk an infants life, and possibly cause them to have migraines, narcolepsy, paralysis, colitis, and even death for a vaccine that has no benefit for 99% of all infants.
Arkana
(24,347 posts)who kicked off a decade-long anti-science struggle because she listened to some quack doctor and got scared.
Mondavi
(176 posts)Rather it is parents who have investigated this issue for themselves who are reflecting their concerns and that's why Thimerosol was removed from vaccines.
Hekate
(90,690 posts)Response to Hekate (Reply #268)
Post removed
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)Ignoring the answers is rude and disrespectful.
alp227
(32,025 posts)albeit with several jurors who think DU is an "anything goes" board:
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: crazy talk
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: You should have put this in a post aimed at who you alerted on,not in an alert.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: what is this i dont even
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The user is entitled to his or her opinion no matter how wrong it might be and you are free to disagree with it but don't waste DU's time trying to censor something as petty as this.
This post does not violate any rules.
Juror 3 referring to alerter comments:
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Jenny_McCarthy
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/04/02/jenny-mccarthy-counts-for-something/
Jenny is looking for "the truth" in the same way as Glenn Beck or Alex Jones. Defending Jenny & those who think like her defends what terms of service call "paranoid fantasies with little or no basis in fact." This user has been pushing anti vaccine apologetics all week now here. This post could jump the shark.
piratefish08
(3,133 posts)Iggo
(47,553 posts)Mondavi
(176 posts)Iggo
(47,553 posts)Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)Mondavi
(176 posts)whether someone is present or not
and they are intended to create hatred for that person, while distracting attention from the issue.
Liberal Veteran
(22,239 posts)Am I also not allowed to say that Randall Terry has blood on his hands by spreading his anti-abortion extremism?
People have to own the ideas and bullshit they spread.
Mondavi
(176 posts)but I am trying to get you to rethink what is happening on this thread with some very, very vicious personal comments which, imo, are intended to prevent discussion of the vaccine issue.
And I think Randall Terry is also someone not to be compared with Jenny McCarthy.
Even if I felt that Randall Terry encouraged the killing of doctors at women's clinics (and I do think that)I wouldn't want to see "hate filled" comments about him encourage anyone else to do harm to him. If he comes to justice, I would prefer it be by legal means.
The subject of bullying I guess is still new to all of us but it does have consequences.
Liberal Veteran
(22,239 posts)Caustic criticism and dismissal of a third party spreading nonsense doesn't enter into the definition I use.
Mondavi
(176 posts)I've read on this thread?
And, imo, these very hateful comments are made in order to shut down discussion and certainly any possible explanations or response by the targets.
tblue37
(65,359 posts)Arkana
(24,347 posts)as a pusher of pseudo-scientific crap to sow fear and discord among gullible parents.
really?
longship
(40,416 posts)Of course, then there's the claim -- before she discovered the vaccine scam she peddles -- that her son is a crystal child and that she is an Indigo Mom.
She was apparently not satisfied with that utter lunacy so she moved on to anti-vaccination lunacy, which unfortunately has a very real body count.
cthulu2016
(10,960 posts)She was famous before she was (known to be) crazy
longship
(40,416 posts)But sometimes a little ad hominem attack feels good, especially when it hits a target so deserving of it.
Best regards.
heaven05
(18,124 posts)are like the christians who take every pronouncement of the preacher as gospel without studying the holy book themselves.
DesertDiamond
(1,616 posts)we are told they are. I know people who claim they've read everything about it, but I think that's baloney, because if they did they'd at least have questions, as I do.
Archae
(46,328 posts)There's "Dr" Andrew Wakefield.
Google "anti-vaccination loons" and you'll find many more.
longship
(40,416 posts)And those who say otherwise are people like Jenny McCarthy, Meryl Dorey, or the corrupt, quack former physician, Andrew Wakefield who helped inflame the fires of anti-vaccination by publishing an utterly fraudulent paper. He was stricken off the roles in the UK, so he came to the USA to practice quackery.
The anti-vaxxers have no credible position.
Vaccines are both safe and effective.
3catwoman3
(23,993 posts)...were on that Wakefield study have retracted their support because they have decided they were wrong.
longship
(40,416 posts)And Wakefield lost his license to practice medicine in the UK so he came to the USA to practice quackery.
Despicible person.
perdita9
(1,144 posts)longship
(40,416 posts)I could not recall whether it was the BMJ or the Lancet. I stand corrected.
The important issue is that the paper was withdrawn as fraudulent and Wakefield was stricken off the roles.
Mondavi
(176 posts)with no complaints against it until a journalist working for Murdock attacked it.
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)And one researcher who had been under attack has seen the attacks lifted.
Wakefield never ever even said that people should not vaccinate their kids.
But the industry over in England needed to create a scapegoat and a pariah, as in the mid-Nineties, so many people had backed away from vaccinating their children. ]
The reason for the public backing away? Why, the Main$tram media had run a series of stories on how a vaccine that was released as a childhood vaccine was flawed, and its administration caused serious complications in young children there and in Canada.
Mondavi
(176 posts)But while public-health officials may have been well-intentioned, many of those on the CDC advisory committee who backed the additional vaccines had close ties to the industry. Dr. Sam Katz, the committee's chair, was a paid consultant for most of the major vaccine makers and shares a patent on a measles vaccine with Merck, which also manufactures the hepatitis B vaccine. Dr. Neal Halsey, another committee member, worked as a researcher for the vaccine companies and received honoraria from Abbott Labs for his research on the hepatitis B vaccine.
Indeed, in the tight circle of scientists who work on vaccines, such conflicts of interest are common. Rep. Burton says that the CDC "routinely allows scientists with blatant conflicts of interest to serve on intellectual advisory committees that make recommendations on new vaccines," even though they have "interests in the products and companies for which they are supposed to be providing unbiased oversight." The House Government Reform Committee discovered that four of the eight CDC advisors who approved guidelines for a rotavirus vaccine laced with thimerosal "had financial ties to the pharmaceutical companies that were developing different versions of the vaccine."
Still, some government officials were alarmed by the apparent conflicts of interest. In his e-mail to CDC administrators in 1999, Paul Patriarca of the FDA blasted federal regulators for failing to adequately scrutinize the danger posed by the added baby vaccines. "I'm not sure there will be an easy way out of the potential perception that the FDA, CDC and immunization-policy bodies may have been asleep at the switch re: thimerosal until now," Patriarca wrote. The close ties between regulatory officials and the pharmaceutical industry, he added, "will also raise questions about various advisory bodies regarding aggressive recommendations for use" of thimerosal in child vaccines.
http://www.icnr.com/articles/thimerosalcoverup.html
longship
(40,416 posts)That would be a straw man.
BTW, you ought to add to your list the former physician Andrew Wakefield, the owner of a patent of a measles vaccine who faked a paper -- published in and later retracted by the Lancet -- connecting the MMR vaccine to autism. He was notably struck off the roles in the UK for his lack of ethics in this research and other issues. He came to the USA to market anti-vaccine autism quackery.
But nobody is saying science, or medicine is without problems, and any time large corporations get involved with science there may be problems. Fortunately, corporations do not set the standard of care for physicians. That is established by physicians who do research, much of which is done within academia by salaried physicians.
The bright thing within medicine is the recent emergence of Science Based Medicine, which is recommending changes to the research and publishing regimes to make medicine more accountable to the underlying science. This may be the next step, and it is a very good one. It will answer a lot of the complaints that people have about medicine and will certainly address the type of complaints you have cited.
Science Based Medicine Blog
Society for Science Based Medicine
Where medicine has problems, it can be fixed.
Mondavi
(176 posts)represent corruption, not imperfection.
This is the same revolving door between corporations and government which has corrupted so much of our government and its agencies.
And Dr. Sam Katz (Committee Chair) actually was a paid consultant for most of the major vaccine makers and shares a patent on a measles vaccine with Merck.
* * *
But while public-health officials may have been well-intentioned, many of those on the CDC advisory committee who backed the additional vaccines had close ties to the industry. Dr. Sam Katz, the committee's chair, was a paid consultant for most of the major vaccine makers and shares a patent on a measles vaccine with Merck, which also manufactures the hepatitis B vaccine. Dr. Neal Halsey, another committee member, worked as a researcher for the vaccine companies and received honoraria from Abbott Labs for his research on the hepatitis B vaccine.
Indeed, in the tight circle of scientists who work on vaccines, such conflicts of interest are common. Rep. Burton says that the CDC "routinely allows scientists with blatant conflicts of interest to serve on intellectual advisory committees that make recommendations on new vaccines," even though they have "interests in the products and companies for which they are supposed to be providing unbiased oversight." The House Government Reform Committee discovered that four of the eight CDC advisors who approved guidelines for a rotavirus vaccine laced with thimerosal "had financial ties to the pharmaceutical companies that were developing different versions of the vaccine."
Still, some government officials were alarmed by the apparent conflicts of interest. In his e-mail to CDC administrators in 1999, Paul Patriarca of the FDA blasted federal regulators for failing to adequately scrutinize the danger posed by the added baby vaccines. "I'm not sure there will be an easy way out of the potential perception that the FDA, CDC and immunization-policy bodies may have been asleep at the switch re: thimerosal until now," Patriarca wrote. The close ties between regulatory officials and the pharmaceutical industry, he added, "will also raise questions about various advisory bodies regarding aggressive recommendations for use" of thimerosal in child vaccines.
http://www.icnr.com/articles/thimerosalcoverup.html
longship
(40,416 posts)They are one of the four best things humans ever invented/discovered for health.
1. Potable water.
2. Indoor plumbing.
3. Germ theory of disease.
4. Vaccines.
the vaccine industry and their paid researchers who move into government have told you that.
Rather, it is improving living conditions, sanitation, health care, clean up water which improves health and eliminates disease.
longship
(40,416 posts)Thanks for trying.
I will stick to the science.
Bye.
Mondavi
(176 posts)Try actually reading something
This is the same revolving door between corporations and government which has corrupted so much of our government and its agencies.
And Dr. Sam Katz (Committee Chair) actually was a paid consultant for most of the major vaccine makers and shares a patent on a measles vaccine with Merck.
Or perhaps you want to refute what Rep. Burton said of the industry and its influence over government agencies?
Rep. Burton says that the CDC "routinely allows scientists with blatant conflicts of interest to serve on intellectual advisory committees that make recommendations on new vaccines," even though they have "interests in the products and companies for which they are supposed to be providing unbiased oversight." The House Government Reform Committee discovered that four of the eight CDC advisors who approved guidelines for a rotavirus vaccine laced with thimerosal "had financial ties to the pharmaceutical companies that were developing different versions of the vaccine."
Or what Patriarca of the FDA had to say about "conflicts of interest":
Still, some government officials were alarmed by the apparent conflicts of interest. In his e-mail to CDC administrators in 1999, Paul Patriarca of the FDA blasted federal regulators for failing to adequately scrutinize the danger posed by the added baby vaccines. "I'm not sure there will be an easy way out of the potential perception that the FDA, CDC and immunization-policy bodies may have been asleep at the switch re: thimerosal until now," Patriarca wrote. The close ties between regulatory officials and the pharmaceutical industry, he added, "will also raise questions about various advisory bodies regarding aggressive recommendations for use" of thimerosal in child vaccines.
* * *
But while public-health officials may have been well-intentioned, many of those on the CDC advisory committee who backed the additional vaccines had close ties to the industry. Dr. Sam Katz, the committee's chair, was a paid consultant for most of the major vaccine makers and shares a patent on a measles vaccine with Merck, which also manufactures the hepatitis B vaccine. Dr. Neal Halsey, another committee member, worked as a researcher for the vaccine companies and received honoraria from Abbott Labs for his research on the hepatitis B vaccine.
Indeed, in the tight circle of scientists who work on vaccines, such conflicts of interest are common. Rep. Burton says that the CDC "routinely allows scientists with blatant conflicts of interest to serve on intellectual advisory committees that make recommendations on new vaccines," even though they have "interests in the products and companies for which they are supposed to be providing unbiased oversight." The House Government Reform Committee discovered that four of the eight CDC advisors who approved guidelines for a rotavirus vaccine laced with thimerosal "had financial ties to the pharmaceutical companies that were developing different versions of the vaccine."
Still, some government officials were alarmed by the apparent conflicts of interest. In his e-mail to CDC administrators in 1999, Paul Patriarca of the FDA blasted federal regulators for failing to adequately scrutinize the danger posed by the added baby vaccines. "I'm not sure there will be an easy way out of the potential perception that the FDA, CDC and immunization-policy bodies may have been asleep at the switch re: thimerosal until now," Patriarca wrote. The close ties between regulatory officials and the pharmaceutical industry, he added, "will also raise questions about various advisory bodies regarding aggressive recommendations for use" of thimerosal in child vaccines.
http://www.icnr.com/articles/thimerosalcoverup.html
longship
(40,416 posts)First, there is no connection between thimerosal and any cognitive disorders. None!
Second, thimerosal was removed from most childhood vaccines in 2002! Virtually all of the anti-vaxxers and the mercury militia were predicting a decrease in autism rates. The results? No change.
The research on thimerosal and autism is damned robust. There is no fucking connection. Period!
You can read about it here: http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/the-final-nail-in-the-mercury-autism-hypothesis/
Vaccines are very safe. And the lack of vaccinations has now brought polio back, very near these shores, when I didn't think I would ever again see it when I was first vaccinated as a kid in the fifties. Up until that time kids at school would occasionally just disappear, victims of polio. Others walked the halls -- with much difficultu -- with their leg braces. It has been almost 60 years. The children who may suffer from a polio outbreak here... Or suffer and die from measles, or pertussis, or other diseases curable with a simple inoculation. They are all on the conscience of the anti-vaccination idiots. Idiots!
I have said my peace here. Anti-vaccination has no leg to stand on. None.
Response to longship (Reply #298)
Post removed
longship
(40,416 posts)And the anti-vaccine rubbish you are peddling does not change that.
I am done with this.
Mondavi
(176 posts)and then for government agencies regulating and recommending these vaccines cannot be ignored. Especially those like Dr. Katz and other members of the Committee.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)SidDithers
(44,228 posts)
Sid
DesertDiamond
(1,616 posts)help and even harms people. In my view, that's pretty much anything the pharmaceutical industry wants to sell you. Try buying a Physician's Desk Reference and looking at the long list of serious and deadly side effects for each and every pharmaceutical. Now try to find anyone who got well from any of those medications. For most of them, you will find people who "maintain" on them, but they are not designed to get anyone well.
longship
(40,416 posts)Where the contents, efficacy, and drug interactions are not tested.
But it's natural!!! And so are arsenic, staph, rattlesnakes, and a whole lot of other horrible stuff. Natural means nothing; it is nothing but a marketing term.
Meanwhile there are people prescribing utter quackery like homeopathy for deadly diseases like malaria. These are the type of things that so-called alternative medicine bring us.
There is no alternative medicine. There is just medicine, based on science where people do not get to make shit up.
Here's the story: http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/tag/dietary-supplement-health-and-education-act-of-1994/
3catwoman3
(23,993 posts)...carbon dioxide. She'll set us straight.
Liberal Veteran
(22,239 posts)At least by any means we have at our disposal.
Epilepsy, asthma, arthritis, many heart conditions, crohns, Alzheimer's, epilepsy, osteoporosis, diabetes, many mental disorders...and the list is pretty darn large.
The goal of medical intervention in cases where there is no cure is managing symptoms and preventing further deterioration.
And keep in mind, the PDR will show you any symptom or side-effect reported during clinical trials that could not be ruled out as being caused by a medication. If two people out of 1000 say they had more headaches or diarrhea while taking a trial medication, it will be listed as a possible side effect.
Mondavi
(176 posts)for checking drugs and their side effects, especially that these are real patients relating their actual experiences in taking the drug. Most drugs are covered. I think too many people think that "side effects" are based in what drug companies find from their own research. Rather they are side effects suffered by real people. And the drug industry doesn't have to report all of the side effects. Many of the more serious ones are experienced after longer periods of using these drugs and they don't necessarily get included on the side effects list.
http://www.askapatient.com
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)Just whose studies were involved in saying hat vaccines are safe?
Why it is the Big Pharma's studies that are saying that the vaccines are safe.
If a scientists or researcher comes out and says, "Wait a minute, this needs to be done differently" WHAM, that poor person is blacklisted and made to be a pariah.
Hundreds of decent researchers have been blacklisted by industry, simply for wanting one of their findings to be taken seriously and to have things made right.
When an industry blunder is made public, the result is to try and make a pariah out of the reporters who uncover a needed truth:
Article in the UK "Mail"
on 15th August 2009
A warning that the new swine flu jab is linked to a deadly nerve disease has been sent by the (British) Government
to senior neurologists in a confidential letter. The letter from the Health Protection Agency, the official body that oversees public health, has been leaked to The Mail on Sunday, leading to demands to know why the information has not been given to the public before the vaccination of millions of people, including children, begins.
It tells the neurologists that they must be alert for an increase in a brain disorder called Guillain-Barre Syndrome (GBS), which could be triggered by the vaccine. GBS attacks the lining of the nerves, causing paralysis and inability to breathe, and can be fatal.
The letter, sent to about 600 neurologists on July 29, is the first sign that there is concern at the highest levels that the vaccine itself could cause serious complications. It refers to the use of a similar swine flu vaccine in the United States in 1976 when: More people died from the vaccination than from swine flu. 500 cases of GBS were detected.
The vaccine may have increased the risk of contracting GBS by eight times. The vaccine was withdrawn after just ten weeks when the link with Guillaume Barre Syndrom became clear... The US Government was forced to pay out millions of dollars to those affected. Concerns have already been raised that the new vaccine has not been sufficiently tested and that the effects, especially on children, are unknown.
#####
The only publication I know of that was able to publish some troublesome findings about the vaccine industry and left unpunished was the San Francisco Chronicle, which in 1999 or 2000, sent its reporters out to examine the conditions at US vaccine labs.
The SF Chronicle did this in an effort to show the public how trustworthy the entire process happens to be.
But the reporters were greeted by filthy laboratories that were in disrepair. Bacterial and viral contamination was rampant. So was mold and fungus. The reporters also uncovered a scarey truth: that the entire way that "inspections" occur is far too few, and always announced to the laboratory executives in advance.
The SF Chronicle expanded the series to let the public understand that if we are going to have vaccinations, we need to make the process safer. However, with the election of George W Bush, the entire process became even more disreputable, rather than improved.
longship
(40,416 posts)And they are. It is one of those rare side effects of certain vaccines.
Here's an article on GBS and the swine flu jab.
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/swine-flu-vaccine-fearmongering/
Vaccines are safe, but nobody says that they are perfectly safe. That would be a straw man, a common tactic of the anti-vaccine crowd.
Regards,
LS
NightWatcher
(39,343 posts)Oh yeah, EVERYONE!
The only reason anyone knows her name is because she used to take her clothes off for Playboy.
tridim
(45,358 posts)
ChairmanAgnostic
(28,017 posts)
mainstreetonce
(4,178 posts)I cannot take McCarthy. She adds nothing to any discussion. I could take Elisabeth Hasselback, but not brain dead idiot McCarthy.
What was Babara Walters thinking?
healthnut7
(249 posts)I saw a Dr. on TV awhile ago saying they hate her and her comments about vaccinations and trying to relate them to
Autism.
There is an outbreak here of Measles. Parents are now lining up to get their kids vaccinated. Stupid, stupid!!!!!
Of course you as parents have the final say and should know better but it blows my mind how many people
will follow what some person in the public eye says.
The schools are sending home students that haven't had their shots and are not to come back till they get them or the
danger is over.
Rex
(65,616 posts)
Besides, that is what she is famous for right? Selling e-cigs?
Bernardo de La Paz
(49,002 posts)
JoeyT
(6,785 posts)Lorillard. At least she isn't working for anyone that makes harmful products, like a pharmaceutical company. Lorillard only makes harmless and safe stuff like Newports.
Lorillard was also the company that sued Massachusetts when they banned tobacco companies from advertising near schools and playgrounds, because freedom of speech!!!
Edited to add: And apparently sent vans around to pass out Newports to African American children at playgrounds in the 60s. So they probably win the coveted "nastiest tobacco company out there" award. Which is some stiff competition.
http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2013/06/11/tobacco/LlCe95yZeHl4LoNHL6JLZI/story.html
longship
(40,416 posts)She rails about the toxins in vaccines, but absolutely loves Botox which is the trade name for... that's right botulism toxin. Botulism, which is one of the most toxic substances known, but Botox has neurological uses and, less advisably, cosmetic ones. Guess which one Jenny uses it for.
3catwoman3
(23,993 posts)...with her panties down around her ankles to sell the Candies brand of shoes.
Chakaconcarne
(2,453 posts)That have shown that current vaccine schedules can be ruled out as potential causes for autism? Can't seem to find anything.
perdita9
(1,144 posts)...which discount a link between autism and vaccines. The schedule that is used is tested and validated for FDA approval. No link to autism has ever presented there.
Recent studies using the brains from aborted fetuses and miscarriages show that autism is evident in the womb.
Mondavi
(176 posts)with Thimerosol in them.
When they increased the schedule of vaccines they never recalculated the increases in Thimerosol which the newborns/children would be getting. See the FOIA documents on that.
perdita9
(1,144 posts)Most thimerosol was removed years ago (and the autism rate went up). The only ones that have it now are multi-dose containers, like the ones used for flu.
longship
(40,416 posts)Go to this link at Science-based Medicine for links to many studies, plus commentary and explanations. There are quite a few of them.
Chakaconcarne
(2,453 posts)There's plenty here that support no link by vaccine, but nothing by schedule.
longship
(40,416 posts)The lack of support for vaccines and autism is all over the place in those articles, plus, the lack of support for toxins and autism.
My apologies that my link gave you something like drinking from a fire hose. You can try Google, I suppose, but that will get you to many anti-vax sites, which won't present the facts. Or, you could do a PubMed search to get the actual research.
I wish I could help you more. But all those citations at SBM should cite the research. Again, sorry about the fire hose.
Orrex
(63,212 posts)That's all it would take.
Instead, you demand the conclusive demonstration of a negative assertion.
Enjoy your stay.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)Mondavi
(176 posts)came to realize that when the schedules for vaccines was increased those recommending the increases never recalculated the increased amounts of Thimerosol that the babies/children would be getting.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)Prove your claim with legitimate links. Do you have any shame at all?
Mondavi
(176 posts)the FOIA documents secured by Congress were the source of information for Deadly Immunity?
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)Of course, I already knew your claim was baseless, but...
Anti-vaccine nonsense is pro-diseases. Stop trying to hurt people.
Response to HuckleB (Reply #294)
Post removed
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., vaccines, the EPA, and the interface with science-based medicine and public policy
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/trouble-in-the-library/
Salon retracts "Deadly Immunity," RFK Jr. keep it on his site…as does Dr. Jay
http://blogs.plos.org/thepanicvirus/2011/01/17/salon-retracts-deadly-immunity-rfk-jr-keep-it-on-his-site-as-does-dr-jay/
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)DesertDiamond
(1,616 posts)developed within 24-72 hours after vaccinations. So if I see any "studies" saying it's been disproven, I'd have to say I don't believe them.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)link between autism and vaccinations?
Archae
(46,328 posts)DesertDiamond
(1,616 posts)become autistic. Once that happened in enough cases it showed a pattern. If not for that, nobody would be saying there was a link.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)Where is the causal link? How do you even know that what you are asserting is true? What pattern exists?
Mondavi
(176 posts)I think it's time to calm down this name-calling and insults being tossed at those who have a different opinion on the drug industry and vaccines than those who wholly embrace every word they utter.
IOM, for one, realized that when the increased schedules were recommended they never recalculated the increased Thimerosol the babies/children would be receiving.
Humanist_Activist
(7,670 posts)its like talking with a flat earther.
Do I need to educate you on remedial biology and chemistry?
Response to Humanist_Activist (Reply #303)
Post removed
Common Sense Party
(14,139 posts)You are saying the child was perfectly "normal", and then within 3 days the child suddenly had full-blown autism?
You do realize that decades of autism research pretty much negates what you're saying.
wercal
(1,370 posts)But how do you "see cases" of autism after 24 hours? Isn't a diagnosis of autism based on observing behavior over a period of time? Isn't is especially difficult to identify in a baby or small child?
kills living cells
Also, pregnant women are still being told to get flu shots by health office.
These flu shots still contain Thimerosol.
Feral Child
(2,086 posts)In what capacity?
Where were you schooled, and what's your degree?
DesertDiamond
(1,616 posts)That wasn't the only thing I learned. The medical industry's goal is not to get you well. The goal is to "maintain" you sick for the rest of your life. The only medical reports I ever transcribed wheree someone got well were the rare ones where the doctor admitted that a patient had come back and shown they were healed by "alternative" medicine - what I called holistic. That would leave the doctor saying, "Um, well, it seems like that worked."
Another interesting one was where a doctor, seeming hesitant about prescribing chemotherapy, almost muttered to herself that studies had shown that chemotherapy can cause cancer. Then she went on and prescribed the chemotherapy anyway.
Archae
(46,328 posts)"Goal is to maintain you sick..."
"Healed by alternative medicine..."
"Chemotherapy caused cancer..."
Those are pure bullshit.
Let me know next time you find new articles at the whale.to website.
3catwoman3
(23,993 posts)...for nearly 40 years, I can state unequivocally that we certainly DO NOT aim to maintain a state of illness. That is pure BS.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts) HuckleB
(35,773 posts)What a load of quack fictions. WOW!
Feral Child
(2,086 posts)I just don't believe your assessment. You don't have the education or skills to lend any credence to your pronouncements.
Your opinions, expressed as if you had some actual expertise, are based solely on your emotions.
chrisa
(4,524 posts)Kids "suddenly" developing autism?
Chemotherapy is necessary to treat cancer. There is no "holistic" cure to cancer that "they don't want you to know about," unless if dying counts. That's a bunch of woo.
Mondavi
(176 posts)also showed their concerns about the connections between vaccines and Autism, but you'll find that many are also willing to reject their experience and observations of children in our schools over decades and noting the sudden changes which they strongly suggested were do to the vaccines.
NickB79
(19,243 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Show me one documented case of autism developing in a child in a 1-3 day period. Just one.
Mondavi
(176 posts)Officials in government agencies have reflected these concerns as made clear in FOIA documents which Congress secured. For one, IOM came to realize that those in government who were recommending the increased schedule of vaccines for newborns/children did not recalculate the increased amounts of Thiemrosol they would be receiving.
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)Your sweet bippy that the Vaccine Industry itself is behind their funding.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)... who use the legitimate studies that show vaccines to be safe and effective. Anti-vaccine conspiracy groups don't change reality.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)It's also called the Galileo fallacy.
Mondavi
(176 posts)http://www.icnr.com/articles/thimerosalcoverup.html
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)The editorial that Salon ended up having to pull because the factual errors and misleading information just kept compounding?
Mondavi
(176 posts)and investigations. Those were his conclusions.
However, Congress also secured FOIA documents which are what Deadly Immunity is based on.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)Congress Promotes Dangerous Anti-vaccine Quackery
http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2012/12/04/congress_hearing_on_vaccines_is_a_farce_of_dangerous_antivax_nonsense.html
Rep. Dan Burton's Legacy: Lots of Sick Kids
http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2012/01/rep-dan-burton-goodbye-and-good-riddance
PopSixSquish
(2,533 posts)in his own backyard to prove that Vince Foster was murdered and expect to be taken seriously?
This isn't a rhetorical question by the way.
Mondavi
(176 posts)This is the same revolving door between corporations and government which has corrupted so much of our government and its agencies.
And Dr. Sam Katz (Committee Chair) actually was a paid consultant for most of the major vaccine makers and shares a patent on a measles vaccine with Merck. Dr. Halsey worked as a researcher for the vaccine companies.
This is the same revolving door between corporations and government which has corrupted so much of our government and its agencies.
And Dr. Sam Katz (Committee Chair) actually was a paid consultant for most of the major vaccine makers and shares a patent on a measles vaccine with Merck.
Rep. Burton says that the CDC "routinely allows scientists with blatant conflicts of interest to serve on intellectual advisory committees that make recommendations on new vaccines," even though they have "interests in the products and companies for which they are supposed to be providing unbiased oversight."
* * *
But while public-health officials may have been well-intentioned, many of those on the CDC advisory committee who backed the additional vaccines had close ties to the industry. Dr. Sam Katz, the committee's chair, was a paid consultant for most of the major vaccine makers and shares a patent on a measles vaccine with Merck, which also manufactures the hepatitis B vaccine. Dr. Neal Halsey, another committee member, worked as a researcher for the vaccine companies and received honoraria from Abbott Labs for his research on the hepatitis B vaccine.
Indeed, in the tight circle of scientists who work on vaccines, such conflicts of interest are common. Rep. Burton says that the CDC "routinely allows scientists with blatant conflicts of interest to serve on intellectual advisory committees that make recommendations on new vaccines," even though they have "interests in the products and companies for which they are supposed to be providing unbiased oversight." The House Government Reform Committee discovered that four of the eight CDC advisors who approved guidelines for a rotavirus vaccine laced with thimerosal "had financial ties to the pharmaceutical companies that were developing different versions of the vaccine."
Still, some government officials were alarmed by the apparent conflicts of interest. In his e-mail to CDC administrators in 1999, Paul Patriarca of the FDA blasted federal regulators for failing to adequately scrutinize the danger posed by the added baby vaccines. "I'm not sure there will be an easy way out of the potential perception that the FDA, CDC and immunization-policy bodies may have been asleep at the switch re: thimerosal until now," Patriarca wrote. The close ties between regulatory officials and the pharmaceutical industry, he added, "will also raise questions about various advisory bodies regarding aggressive recommendations for use" of thimerosal in child vaccines.
http://www.icnr.com/articles/thimerosalcoverup.html
MattBaggins
(7,904 posts)It doesn't work that way
Gothmog
(145,264 posts)Vaxxers are really stupid people and McCarthy gave these idiots cover for their stupidity
rudolph the red
(666 posts)for their ignorance.
perdita9
(1,144 posts)...and erotica to the Playboy bunnies
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)revisionist, after-the-fact whitewashing of her earlier statements...
There are more than a few parents who ended up killing their children over treatable illnesses because they swallowed the hyped-up bullshit she was spewing nonstop...
Frank Cannon
(7,570 posts)I suspect, as do many, that it is environmental.
And when that day comes, the only thing that will make it more glorious is to see that stupid twit sued into total poverty.
tclambert
(11,086 posts)The problem is, autism isn't just one thing. The medical experts talk about ASD, Autism Spectrum Disorder(s). Some cases are milder, some are worse. Some versions, like Asperger Syndrome, are considered high-functioning autism--ya know, Rain Man. And some people "grow out" of autism, learning to deal with social situations more normally. And it often runs in families.
3catwoman3
(23,993 posts)...as varied and complex as Autism Spectrum Disorder.
underpants
(182,807 posts)Not that I mind but that was her only talent early in her career. ...... still is
sakabatou
(42,152 posts)HuckleB
(35,773 posts)
Ilsa
(61,695 posts)An actor vs medical doctors is too stupid to be parenting.
HockeyMom
(14,337 posts)actors NOR doctors.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)It's not that there aren't any bad ones, but the vast majority are awesome, intelligent and know their stuff.
Orrex
(63,212 posts)Dr. Strange
(25,921 posts)It has memories. You'd know this if you had been an Indigo child.
Orrex
(63,212 posts)And it rhymes with mower rather than flower, dammit.
Erose999
(5,624 posts)
DemocraticWing
(1,290 posts)SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Yep.
We toss anti-AGW 'concern' trolls. Why not anti-vax trolls?
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)While anti-vax, anti-GMO etc... are give a free ride. It does not seem consistent.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)and too many Hosts completely ignore the "no conspiracy theories" part of the GD SOP.
It's been like that for a long, long time.
Sid
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)Administration doesn't seem willing to make rules that are coherent in this regard.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)and would prefer to let the Hosts sort it out amongst themselves.
Consequently, we get threads about UFOs and threads using the worst of the worst CT sites left in GD.
Sid
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)Thanks. Ugh.
wyldwolf
(43,867 posts)
Anti-vaccination is NOT sexy.
YOHABLO
(7,358 posts)schizophrenia .. I'm no expert on schizophrenia but I have had a long experience of being around others who suffer from the mental illness. I have witnessed the behavior and side effects of the many medications they've had my sister on over the past 40 years. She's stable and can relatively function, much better than in her earlier days of the disease. We have so many environmental hazards today: chemicals,in our food, insecticides, cleaning products, gasoline, and just the air we breath on a daily basis. So how does one break it down? I read recently that Polio is rearing is ugly head in the middle east and Asian countries. I could go on but I'm not sure if I'm making sense. But McCarthy is a bit of a hypocrite.
HockeyMom
(14,337 posts)Some families had multiple children with autism. Was being vaccinated the common factor among them? No. Some had vaccines and others didn't. While I am anti-vaccine personally, I don't think that is the factor in autism.
Arkana
(24,347 posts)Primary among them is the fact that those countries are getting shredded by civil strife constantly, and it is harder to vaccinate children when you can't find them and their parents don't take them to a doctor. It has nothing to do with the anti-vax crowd, crazy as they are.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Warning:
"Use of vaccines without proper birth control can lead to explosive population growth causing severe environmental degradation, mass death from famine and heightened incidents of armed conflict due to limited resources"
"Do not take vaccines if you've chosen to die from the mumps"
Sid
Archae
(46,328 posts)
3catwoman3
(23,993 posts)... it is poignantly common to see family plots with half a dozen or more little headstones, listing the ages of death as 3 months, 6 months, 18 months. If we stepped into a time tunnel and went back 100-150 years, 16% of children died before the age of 5. From diseases we can now protect against. I don't want parents to have to go back to expecting their children to die.
HockeyMom
(14,337 posts)She was the only child to survive out of 6 children. None lived past their 5th birthdays. You are getting into a philosphical realm. Why did only she survive? I am here today because she DID. Obviously, your ancestors also survived. Think about all the diseases, inlcluding the flu pandemic of 1916, our ancestors survived. WHY did they survive without vaccines/medicine and so many others didn't?
Edit: As a genealogist, I have walked through many cemetaries. And seen all those pictures of little children. Sad, but all life means dying. BTW, my Grandma had 4 children, born 1905 to 1919, and all of them survived. Was that because of all the vaccines that had been invented by then, or maybe it was due to something else?
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)Do NOT die from measles, or chicken pox.
Many of the kids who died before the age of five during American frontier days died of cholera, or "milk sickness." (Abe Lincoln's mom died from that scourge, (if memory serves, although I am not quite that old.)
The whole way that the vaccine industry gets the statistics on how dreadfully dangerous measles or chicken pox are, they get those stats by visiting the barrios of inner cities in Central America, where malnourished kids with chronic diarrhea do indeed die from childhood diseases.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)
150,000 people with respiratory and other complications, including 450 dead in the US is not something to ignore.
http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/189/Supplement_1/S1.long
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)Note the statistics about measles deaths inside the USA in the period circa 1954 to 1964. Huge decrease in measles-related deaths, as compared to time period of 1900 to 1923.
Huge.
And we Baby Boomers did not have the measles vaccine - my entire school had repeated measles cases and most all of us had measles the natural way. (Some of us never came down with the measles.)
Meanwhile the igE that is inside the vaccines that are foisted on youngsters right now - that is causing the asthma increase that is taking out so many children. Many kids today cannot go anywhere without their inhalers, and they are dying from their asthma.
Here is a study
www.vaclib.org/docs/alum/aluminum-allergystudies.html
(The study, like much of the good medical research out there is from the veterinarian world - don't forget - it was vets who first realized how ulcers were caused by bacteria and that antibiotics could help ulcers, while medical "doctors for people" dragged their feet on that insight for close to 100 years.)
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)It shows that there were still 45O deaths a year just before the vaccine. It shows that there were still 150,000 cases with severe complication. You really don't understand this stuff, do you.
And anti-vaccine propaganda is not a study. Try again. You have been debunked, and you are so full of it that you pretend otherwise. WOW!
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)Born between 1945 and 1964, so 450 kids dying of measles each year is a drop in the bucket. Yes a tragedy for the individual parents and siblings, but a drop in the bucket.
Looking at stats for calender year 2007, 185 kids died of asthma, which many see as being vaccine related. (Which is why I took the time to put up the excellent study about how the IgA in vaccines becomes IgE which then can serve as a trigger for lifetime bouts of asthma,some of which end up being deadly.)
When you add in the concerns that real researchers (that is researchers who are not tied into producing the results the Big Pharma firms make the other scientists adopt) you have to note that there is a sharp increase in cancer rates, an increase in autism, an increase in MS later on, and you see that we certainly have not improved things - we have substituted an entire nation of kids being chronically plagued with everything from learning deficits and ADHD, migraines, narcolepsy, paralysis, cancer and many other ailments to avoid the 300 deaths a year we might see from the measles.
As far as being debunked, I see a lot of ad hominem attacks but no one here who has the logic to refute me.
HuckleB
(35,773 posts)Last edited Fri May 9, 2014, 07:35 PM - Edit history (1)
The fact that you don't care about death and disease is your problem.
Measles Outbreaks Are Concerning, Even to the Vaccinated
http://shotofprevention.com/2014/03/11/measles-outbreaks-are-concerning-even-to-the-vaccinated/
“Vaccines didn’t save us” (a.k.a. “vaccines don’t work”): Intellectual dishonesty at its most naked
http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/vaccines-didnt-save-us-intellectual-dishonesty-at-its-most-naked/
Response to truedelphi (Reply #243)
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HuckleB
(35,773 posts)Get a clue.
alp227
(32,025 posts)And did you seriously say the trade-off to fewer deaths from measles is, "an entire nation of kids being chronically plagued with everything from learning deficits and ADHD, migraines, narcolepsy, paralysis, cancer and many other ailments"?
Are you seriously blaming ADHD on vaccines?
Response to truedelphi (Reply #240)
Post removed
alp227
(32,025 posts)And that facebook page is full of kooks. keep in mind that right wing groups like the American Association of Physicians and Surgeons was one of the most outspoken anti-Gardasil groups. Do you really wanna be in company with THEM?
see also:
http://conwebwatch.tripod.com/blog/index.blog/2233327/wnd-tries-to-fearmonger-about-hpv-vaccine/
http://conwebwatch.tripod.com/stories/2011/wndgardasil.html
Mondavi
(176 posts)who moved Gardasil along for Merck suggests caution and recommends yearly pap smears.
There have been deaths with Gardasil which are acknowledged by Merck. Pap smears don't kill people.
3catwoman3
(23,993 posts)...of encephalitis caused by measles or chicken pox?
Avalux
(35,015 posts)Seriously - do you not understand how bacteria and viruses WORK?
alp227
(32,025 posts)Understanding how diseases work takes a hell of a lot more than dividing the world into "1st world = healthy, 3rd world = risky". Second, there are kids whose immune systems are so fucked up, they have no choice but to rely on herd immunity if they live in a "first world nation" with hygiene & nutrition and all that.
And suuuuuure...Big Pharma did indeed use flawed studies to justify vaccinating us all.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)to see some posters here sound so irrational about vaccines that they make McCarthy seem tame by comparison.
TeacherB87
(249 posts)Is it her career or the respect of the public? Because I'm pretty sure she never had much of either one to begin with.
Archae
(46,328 posts)Her anti-vaxx advocacy Is causing her to lose money.
PopSixSquish
(2,533 posts)probably had something to do with it as well.
dem in texas
(2,674 posts)this shows how much the media can sway people, especially when the subject is blond and good looking, even things that should be addressed from a scientific viewpoint fall by the way side. Look out America, we will be having our first case of polio any day now.
Response to Archae (Original post)
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Agschmid
(28,749 posts)Bombtrack
(9,523 posts)Singled Out 4eva
