NJ man shoots 11-year-old nephew dead while demonstrating laser sight on his forehead

[CreekDog]

Guns don't make us safer when folks like this have them.

By David Edwards
Monday, May 5, 2014 12:51 EDT

An 11-year-old New Jersey boy was shot dead over the weekend when his uncle was showing off a number of guns that he thought were unloaded, and pointed one with a laser sight at the child’s forehead.

...

Olm told police that he opened his security safe and began showing his weapons to the nephew, and his son, who was also present. He insisted that he did not keep the guns loaded.

After letting the boys handle three handguns — a .357 Magnum revolver, a .22 revolver and a 9 mm — he then pulled out a Glock 27 .40-caliber handgun that was equipped with a laser sight.

Olm stated that he did not check to see if there was a round in the chamber, but said that the handgun did not have a magazine in it. Olm said that he pointed the laser at the walls and ceiling. And then he pointed it at his nephew.

“Look, you have a red dot on your forehead,” Olm recalled one of the boys saying.

Olm said that when the nephew reached out for the gun, he pulled the trigger. A single bullet struck the child above the eye, causing him to start bleeding and fall over.



http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/05/05/nj-man-shoots-11-year-old-nephew-dead-while-demonstrating-laser-sight-on-his-forehead/

[Archae]

1. Rule #1 of responsible gun owners...

"All guns are loaded."

I worked the bolt on a rifle my cousin told me he had unloaded, and a round popped out.
My cousin looked like he had been caught looking at child porn.

[Coventina]

4. It's such a simple rule.

But I've seen it broken by "responsible" gun owners so many times that sometimes I wonder if there are any out there.

Not trying to start any trouble, but I was taught the "four rules" the one time a friend took me shooting.

I broke #1 myself that day, even though I was trying so hard to be aware and careful of what I was doing.

[NutmegYankee]

18. It requires discipline and double checking.

If you are a member of a rod and gun club like myself, you'll notice that everytime a gun is handed to a person they check the action to ensure it is unloaded. EVERYTIME. The problem is we have a lot of yahoos who collect guns they find cool but don't get the proper upbringing or culture to be safe. Factor in the anti-gun yahoos who push ignorance and fear of guns like fundies push abstinance only education and we have a lot of people who know jack squat about proper firearm handling.

The second rule enforced so strictly that one instance gets you booted is never aim a gun at a person. Simple adherence to that rule would have prevented this tragedy.

[Coventina]

19. No kidding. I can't even IMAGINE what that man was thinking that it was OK

to point a laser sight at that kid.

I mean, isn't just the laser itself dangerous to the eyes if it crossed them?

Monumental stupidity and negligence.

I hope they throw the book at him.

on edit: grammar

[NutmegYankee]

21. He deserves a lot of jailtime.

Absolutely reckless and negligent behavior.

[Nevernose]

36. "Anti-gun yahoos" are responsible for gun owners accidentally killing kids?

You don't see that as just a wee bit of a stretch?

[liberalhistorian]

39. If I'm gonna be called a "yahoo", then I guess

an "anti-gun" yahoo is preferable to any other kind. And that is, indeed, a tremendous stretch. Notice how he or she doesn't even mention the gun fanatics who want everyone and anyone to have a gun at any time anywhere and how that contributes to this kind of craziness.

[Vattel]

40. He would prefer to call it a bold claim.

[NutmegYankee]

49. There are a few who want people to know nothing about guns.

They want to keep others sheltered from any knowledge of them in the hope that it will just go away. Just like with youth and sex, some people who have never been exposed to education on gun handling will handle one, or be around someone who handles one incorrectly and "mistakes" will happen. I'm a liberal, and I oppose "ignorance only education" in all forms.

[Nevernose]

55. I'm sure the guy who had enough guns to be considered a "collection"

...was careless because some people who oppose guns prevented a guy who owned many of them and kept them in a safe from knowing that pointing guns at people is a bad idea?

Olm told police that he opened his security safe and began showing his weapons to the nephew, and his son, who was also present. He insisted that he did not keep the guns loaded.

You were stretching to begin with and should probably quit now, because your argument is ridiculous on its face. There is one person directly responsible, the owner, and if anyone is indirectly responsible it's the gun nuts at the NRA (and even a few in our own gungeon) who keep insisting that guns are safe. The people who are opposed to guns are literally the LAST people on earth responsible for an accidental shooting.

[NutmegYankee]

90. If you go back and actually read my post

You'll note that I also go after the yahoos who own guns because they think they are cool as well. FUNNY how you totally pretend that isn't there...

You want to nitpick one portion of my commentary on current society and the ignorance that abounds from both sides. If everyone in the room knows you check the firearm every time to see if it is loaded, and they speak up and object when they are not followed, these types of accidents would be prevented - even from blithering idiots like this guy. It's an important fact in a culture of safety. Everyone needs to know. It's like working on a job site - everyone needs to know the rules and speak up when they are violated.

[Nevernose]

123. No, you were absolutely right that this guy is a blithering idiot

I ignored it because it was kind of obvious that the man got an A in Dipshit 101 from Dumbass University. (Also a good example of why people against guns have a valid point to their claim that guns are dangerous, but that's a whole other thread).

I nitpicked on the portion of your commentary that was incorrect. I'm fairly certain that someone, somewhere told this guy to treat all guns as if they were loaded. All the gun safety in the world does no good when human beings are involved, though, because some human beings make mistakes, or get careless, or are just plain morans.

I have never known an anti-gun yahoo who believed that people shouldn't be taught basic safety. If you could find maybe just one single, solitary example on DU? Not someone who says that gun safety is useless, which is at least a debatable point, but what you said: an actual person who is opposed to teaching simple safety lessons.

[NutmegYankee]

130. I know such a person IRL.

And it is that individual who I base that comment on. They are also mega God squad, but that's another discussion.

As for human beings, I agree that we make mistakes and have brain facts, etc. You can train people, but humans are prone to complacency and start to cut corners after a period of time without accidents. What I propose is similar to industrial job site training where everyone knows the rules and anyone can object or identify a hazard. When I was a child I was taught that every gun should be proven to be unloaded being handling it (slide locked back for instance). And of course I knew that no gun should ever be pointed at me. If someone else speaks up and says "wait a sec, that's not how you handle a gun", it can mitigate outright stupidity and maintain safety.

When I hand my pistol to people who are not familiar with these rules, I take special precautions to demonstrate that the firearm is unloaded. For instance, I placed a shish kebab wooden stick down the barrel into the action to demonstrate how no round could be present. And then I taught them how to check that it was unloaded once they received it.

[oneshooter]

173. All of my rifles are chamber flagged, my handguns are cleared and handed over

with the cylinder out , slide open or loading gate open.

[Jenoch]

38. Yesterday, my recently retired police officer brother showed

a couple of semi-auto handguns to myself and my father. He went to his gun safe to retrieve them and brought them out and started to show them to us. One of them was issued to him by the U.S. Marshal's Office where he will be a member of the security team of a federal courthouse. Anyway, I said "shouldn't we be pulling the slide back to check if they are safe to handle?" He said he did it in the other room but should have also done it in front of us. Anyway, the guy in this story is why I would not mind mandatory gun safety training for anyone who purchases a firearm. Or for that matter, mandatory gun safety training in our public schools.

[NutmegYankee]

52. That was the point I was making.

If all parties know the rules, it's easier to enforce compliance.

[Crunchy Frog]

48. Oh, so the "anti-gun yahoos" made him do it. n/t

[safeinOhio]

77. Proper training?

A few years back I was talking to an older man, in his 70s. I asked him about the cast on his left hand and he told me his gun went off while he was cleaning it. He then confessed that he had been an NRA safety instructor for 36 years.

It does not matter how much training you have.

[Jenoch]

128. I almost never believe the "the gun went off

when I was cleaning it" B.S. That's the explanation hanyackers give when they don't wish to admit the 'effed up.

[safeinOhio]

141. He admitted he failed to clear the chamber.

Shows that someone that knows gun safety rules and has even taught them for over 30 years can screw up. It's time to admit that firearms are very dangerous, even in the hands of trained experts.

[hollowdweller]

180. Safety Instructor?

Here in WV my friend went to take the gun safety class so she could get her concealed carry permit.

She said at the end of the class the instructor pointed the gun at the floor and clicked it and shot thru the floor. Nobody below was hit but I thought WTF??

[liberalhistorian]

37. I have known, and know, responsible gun owners

(yes, they do exist, NRA crazy fanaticism notwithstanding and none want anything to do with the NRA), and they are zealous on this rule and can't understand why any others wouldn't be careful enough to follow it. I don't own any guns and never plan to do so, but it seems to me to be such a simple, basic thing that it makes no sense not to follow it.

[deutsey]

6. Really...

I don't own guns, haven't shot a gun in decades...but the lesson that was drilled into my head when I learned to shoot a rifle long ago was always assume the gun is loaded and treat it accordingly.

What the fuck is wrong with people?

[3catwoman3]

14. Good damn question.

Is not one of the other basic rules of handling firearms - DO NOT POINT IT AT SOMEONE YOU DO NOT PLAN TO KILL?

(Yes, I know I am shouting - it seems justified in the face of such egregious stupidity.)

[freshwest]

17. Agreed. Not even 'symbolically.' The words not being said, are 'I can kill you.' n/t

[moriah]

30. Da Rulez:

1) All guns are always loaded.
2) Never point a gun at something you don't want to destroy (or kill).
3) Keep your finger off the trigger until your sites are on the target.
4) Be sure of your target and what is behind it.

[Aerows]

64. Amen!

Why aren't people taught this anymore?

[Jenoch]

131. In Minnesota roughly 25,000 people, mostly youth

are taught gun safety through a Minnesota DNR program. That 25,000 is an annual figure. I wish all students went through this training in the public schools.

My older brother has taught the course for 26 years. I went through course with my best friend's dad who taught the course for 48 years.

[sendero]

164. Everyone..

... is taught this. Some people just cannot learn. Having a "unloaded" gun that was actually loaded is bad enough, actually pointing it at someone is stupid squared.

This idiot should go to prison where he cannot handle weaponry that is smarter than he is.

[Damansarajaya]

72. Very good start.

I would also add the following--

5) If the gun has a safety, make sure it is ON until ready to fire.

This .40 cal had a safety, which the killer had left off while the gun was stored. Dude, why do you think the safety is installed on every semi-auto pistol, for show?

I even flip my safety on while I'm waiting for others to fire at clay targets. Yes, sometimes I swing up the shotgun and miss the shot because the safety is on and I forgot to flip it off, but on the other hand, I've never shot my own foot either.

[calimary]

80. Welcome to DU, Damansarajaya!

Glad you're here. Those are all good starts. But how many times did they fail? I'm sorry, but I just don't buy the whole "good guys with guns" thing. Too much can go too wrong. Too FATALLY wrong. Too casually or momentarily thoughtlessly. And too damn quickly.

[safeinOhio]

81. Glocks do not have a safety. n/t

[Damansarajaya]

135. Seriously?!

I know most revolvers don't have a safety, but I though EVERY semi-auto had one (except for maybe a Mauser from 1910 or something).

Hell, I bought an antique Romanian TT-30 (Tokarov) and danged if they didn't have this ugly retro-fitted safety added to it.

*****

On edit: okay, I just googled this, and you are indeed correct. Glock has a so-called trigger-safety, but that obviously wouldn't have helped in this shituation.

I already refuse to buy plastic guns, but this makes me dislike Glocks (the king of the plastic gun) even more.

[calimary]

76. No way to shout that LOUD ENOUGH, 3catwoman3!!!

There's no way to shout that LOUD ENOUGH!!!!! You go ahead and shout. I'll be next to you, shouting too!

[liberalhistorian]

43. The same thing that was wrong with that fucking idiot who

took his eight-year-old son to a gun show and, along with an "instructor", allowed him to handle and shoot a machine gun, which then ricocheted, hit him in the head and killed him instantly. Complete and utter thoughtlessness, carelessness, stupidity, and gun zealotry.

[AtheistCrusader]

75. Not a ricochet.

The kid gripped the gun tighter and tighter trying to hang onto it, due to the recoil. The gun had nowhere to go, but up, until it pumped a round through his head. A little bit like a mechanical runaway, but instead of the firearm malfunctioning, and firing until it is dry, his finger held the trigger down in panic, and the gun functioned as intended.

He was not ready for a full-auto weapon, and the instructor was, IIRC found negligent. As was the venue.

[deutsey]

174. God, I remember that.

It's so damn easy to prevent these tragedies...so damn easy.

[dionysus]

7. you have to be especially careless to remove the magazine and not check the chamber, or even to pick

up an empty weapon with ut double-checking the chamber...

criminal negligence

[Blue_Tires]

8. Maybe the new Rule #1 needs to be

"Guns are NOT toys..." I'm seeing too many people treating them as such...

[hollowdweller]

181. The #1 Rule when I was a kid was

You never click a gun. Meaning you never pull the trigger unless you are shooting it.

If you pull the hammer back then you point the gun at the ground and let the hammer down with your finger but you don't click it.

If you obey this rule that you never click a gun but you let the hammer down then you greatly reduce your chances of shooting someone or yourself accidentally.

I'm not sure how these new semi autos w/o a hammer work all mine are old, but on most semi autos w/o a hammer I am aware of you can pull the slide partly back and then let the internal hammer down without firing the gun.

[CBGLuthier]

9. The corresponding adage for non gun owners is rule number one

There are No Responsible Gun Owners. By making this assumption I reduce my risk of mistaking some asshat for a responsible gun owner who will then swear to fucking god that it was not loaded and he is one safe swell fella.

[Blue_Tires]

25. +1

[erronis]

51. +1

Even responsible gun owners have brain farts, or worse pull a Pistorius.

[Paladin]

73. +1. (nt)

[calimary]

82. + another 1

million.

[safeinOhio]

85. see post #77

[hack89]

93. Good rule in general not just guns - especially on the highway

while I don't assume that every driver or gun owner is an immediate threat to my life, I also do not automatically assume that they will always do the right thing at the right time.

[CreekDog]

102. then of course you'd support the licensing, testing and registration requirements of driving

for guns and shooting.

thank you.

[friendly_iconoclast]

105. As you no doubt support the mandatory issuance of gun permits...

...for those who meet the legal requirements, without the imprimatur of law enforcement.
After all, the DMV didn't ask my local cop shop if I was allowed to have a drivers license

[CreekDog]

106. only for the legal uses or ownership of the jurisdiction

much like driver's licenses.

[friendly_iconoclast]

108. Yet all states allow residents of other states to drive there

You know, I'm starting to like your idea...

[oneofthe99]

113. ha ha

[friendly_iconoclast]

116. I suspect a certain clever meme wasn't thought all the way through...

[Ikonoklast]

185. And revoke those permits when the holder proves incompetent, dangerous, or unsafe to others?

Just like a driver's license?

OK.

[friendly_iconoclast]

187. *Now* we're getting somewhere...

[hack89]

110. You really do not want guns to be regulated like cars (but the NRA definitely would)

Last edited Mon May 5, 2014, 06:08 PM - Edit history (1)

think about it:

1. Simple test that 95% of the population can pass
2. No criminal background check to get a license
3. No wait to get a license
4. License is good in every state
5. You can get a license at 16 and a half years old.

Now of course, you don't need a license or registration to keep a car on private property, only to drive on public roads. So just like cars, we should make gun owners take a test and get a license to carry a gun in public - we can even give them a cool name like Carrying a Concealed Weapons (or CCW) permit. Good idea or what?



Btw - I do not actually want to regulate guns like cars.

[friendly_iconoclast]

120. That lot lose their enthusiasm for the idea when these are pointed out...

[billh58]

103. +100

I will not enter a house with guns, nor will any of my family (and most of my friends).

[DanTex]

139. +1. Thread winner.

[CANDO]

148. My cousin has shot shell BB's still embedded in his skin...

from being mistook for a Turkey. I shit you not...the other hunter was a good friend who absolutely insisted he was shooting at a Turkey approaching him through the heavy brush in the woods. My cousin was close enough to him to see him raise his gun and aim..giving him just enough time to turn away quickly and take the shotgun blast to his upper back and neck area. Needles to say, the friendship was over at that moment and they've never spoken to each other since.

[uponit7771]

167. +1

[pnwmom]

10. Every owner is responsible . . . till the day he isn't. nt

[oneshooter]

176. Every driver is responsible.....till the day he/she isn't. also n/t

[pnwmom]

177. And yet we never go around talking about "responsible car owners"

as if there is a category of people who will never make a mistake with a car.

[1StrongBlackMan]

29. The #1 Rule I learned was ...

do not ever point a gun at someone you are not intending to kill ... whether you know/think it is loaded, or not.

[Ed Suspicious]

57. That's different slightly from what my dad taught me. Mine was simpler, maybe more effective. It

was; "Never point a gun at anyone." . . . And there was also "Always treat a gun as if it were loaded."

[1StrongBlackMan]

63. My Dad (R.I.P.) ...

was a cop ... and so, he did not believe (and taught me not to believe) that one should never point a gun at someone ... there are times when doing so is completely appropriate; but only if one intends to kill that person.

[Aerows]

68. We don't agree on much, 1StrongBlackMan, but we agree on this.

My father taught me the same thing. Never point a gun at someone you aren't prepared to kill, treat all guns as loaded, and if you can't do either of those two things, don't carry one.

[1StrongBlackMan]

74. I agree ...

We do not agree on much. But, I find the "treat all guns as loaded" part redundant ... as I see no purpose in carrying an unloaded gun.

[Aerows]

95. Agreed

And I know the lawyer in you is struggling for a way to disagree with me upon principle, but we DO agree .

[mikeysnot]

41. Don't forget to include "Law Abiding"

in your description! That always puts us all at ease...

[Aerows]

60. I can't believe how many people violate this rule

A gun is loaded. Always.

Adherence to that one simple rule can prevent so much heartache. A gun is ALWAYS loaded until you check.

[Jackpine Radical]

65. Corollary 1 of Rule 1:

Never point a gun at anybody or anything you don't intend to shoot.

[Aerows]

71. Precisely n/t

[AtheistCrusader]

89. Usually stated

"anything you do not wish to destroy", but yes.

Doesn't matter if it's empty. Doesn't matter if its on 'safe'. There are no mitigating conditions to that rule.
Violate that rule at someone ELSE's peril.

[Blue_Tires]

91. Corollary 2:

Always keep your finger on the trigger guard until you are ready to fire...

Corollary 3:
Always know what you're shooting at, and what is behind what you're shooting at...

I've only been shooting once in my life, and even I remember all these things

[jmowreader]

191. That's Rule #2

Rule #1 is, "never point a gun at anything you are not willing to destroy." Because that's what guns are for.

[Coventina]

2. What an horrific story!

Words fail!

That family is destroyed.

[Submariner]

16. That family is destroyed

I am glad I am not in a family of a shooting victim. It must be almost nightmarish for each family individual who, I'm guessing, have this thought of the shooting pass through their mind EVERY single day for the rest of their lives. For the brother, sister, parents, grandparents, just awful, especially with a relative doing the killing.

[CTyankee]

47. It happened in my family. My brother was never the same after his daughter was

killed in a domestic incident (her stepgrandfather was angry and drunk and grabbed his pistol and started shooting). It changed the course of my brother's life and he died of a stroke. His other daughter went into the ministry and I will always believe it was because of what happened to her sister, feeling guilt for not being there to protect her.

[calimary]

66. I'm not either, but a friend of ours died that way. She was very close friends with my son.

He regarded her as a mentor. Wonderful woman. Gifted. HUGELY empathetic and loving. Kind as could be. A great and supportive friend. Always there for you if you needed it. And one fine day she shot her nephew dead, point-blank, and then turned the gun on herself. We never fully understood why. SOMETHING made her snap. She'd lived on a ranch out in the sticks for years, did all the heavy lifting shoulder-to-shoulder with her family. Was very capable and trained with firearms and shotguns. They went hunting and it was something common throughout that rural area. Lived around it all her life, from when she was a child. She knew how to handle it. She was highly experienced and schooled and took all such weapons very seriously. Until one fine day something made her snap. YES, IT CAN HAPPEN even to the so-called "good guys with guns." She was absolutely, certifiably a good-guy type from the get-go. And yet something made her snap. She was the last person on earth I'd ever imagine that happening to, AND IT HAPPENED.

I don't care HOW experienced people may be with guns, how much they profess to be experts, how vociferously they insist that they're cautious, how they declare without any doubt that they know what they're doing and know how to handle guns and how to store them safely and all that. And all that. And all that. I don't care!!! I don't care WHO HERE will argue with me about how people have a right to own as many guns as they want and they pose no threat and it's some vaporous imaginary bad guy over there who's the problem and home security and blah blah blah. IT HAPPENS. And my son is forever marred by that. As am I. Don't give ME any of that 2nd-Amendment-is-sacred crap! Just don't even start with me. You won't get anywhere, and you absolutely will not change my mind.

[NightWatcher]

3. Lock that man in a cell surrounded by pics of that kid for the rest of his life

[Ed Suspicious]

59. We're really good at cooking up harsh punishment, just not so good at preventing the problem in the

first place.

[Nevernose]

62. Yep. It's not like it's a complicated problem.

Difficult to find the political will, but not a difficult problem to identify.

[Journeyman]

5. Thankfully, the murderer was arrested and is awaiting arraignment. . .

Police arrested Olm on charges of criminal homicide, recklessly endangering another person and endangering the welfare of children. He was being held at Pike County Correctional Facility in lieu of bail.

May he spend a good portion of the rest of his life behind bars. It's the only way the rest of us can be assured of any safety from the criminal behavior of this incompetent fool.

[CreekDog]

23. and yet that won't do anything to bring the kid back

[Blue_Tires]

26. Well, there have been so many of these stories in recent years

to the point where "I'm sorry! It was an accident and won't ever happen again" doesn't hold water anymore...

[CreekDog]

27. agreed

[Jefferson23]

11. :(

Horrific, RIP young one.

[Hoyt]

12. What a tragedy. Gun nuts ought to have guns confiscated if they are into laser sights, special loads

shooting targets that resemble humans, etc.

Just shows they really aren't interested in the type of situations where self-defense might actually be needed (although with even minimal reflection they should realize the odds of needing a gun are actually so small as to be nearly non-existent).

Those who are into this type stuff are either (1) overly paranoid, or (2) are just people who are callous, bigoted, like to intimidate folks, and/or need a gun to compensate. In either case, they should not own guns or be allowed near children.

Finally, this idea that we can't do anything to gun nuts until they are convicted of shooting/killing someone is even crazier.

[SQUEE]

67. you really have a way about you

T o jump from a criminaly negligent homocide, to laser sights and special loads... I love you man.

no really, I want you to live forever'

[AtheistCrusader]

78. Heaven forfend a firearm owner/user actually hit their target.

Ooga booga, laser sights.


This guy was an irresponsible shithead. Let's not blow it out of proportion. Hell, I have radioactive night sights on my carry pistol, but my kid has never even so much as SEEN it, and it spends 99% of its time in a safe.

Laser sights is in no way a 'negative' on the assessment of a gun owner's intent. If someone ever has to use a firearm, you kinda WANT them to hit the target, yanno?

[Hoyt]

87. Not needed for self-defense. If you have time to use sights, it's not likely a

self-defense situation. Can't imagine many cases where one would need to shoot someone at a distance, or when you have more than a split second, unless you are police or are shooting them in the back as they flee. I stick by what I said.

[AtheistCrusader]

94. In a way, I sort of agree, the utility is debateable.

There are some extreme situations, maybe a pit bull gnawing on someone's leg, you might want the added clarity of the laser to help aim through the fog of adrenaline, but for the most part, I think they are a silly, crutch/gimmick of little utility.

I don't think they imply nefarious intent though.

[The Second Stone]

13. If that little boy had wanted to live, he should have armed himself

because only a good kid with a gun can protect you from Drunk Uncle with a gun.

[Tim4319]

15. I wish there was a way to make the NRA.....

....pay for the funerals for all deaths such as these! This is senseless, and the NRA gets off without a tarnish! I had a nephew who was shot and killed while riding in a friends car. I also had a former high school classmate of mine shot and killed while he was sitting in his car! In all three cases, these people were minding their business, not causing harm to anyone! Yet their lives were snatched because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. That should not mean a death sentence!!

And, to take it a step further, for survivors of senseless gun violence, like the one that happened at the Kennesaw, GA FedEx plant. A co-worker of my wife's family member was the security guard that was shot, he had multiple surgeries, and his hospital bills should be taken care of by the NRA.

But, I understand, that will never happen!!!!!!!!!!!

[marions ghost]

31. Totally agree

...keep saying it. People need to hear it.

[LakeVermilion]

50. NRA is a front for the gun manufacturers!

There is no organization that so closely aligns to an industry. Do you see citizens lining up for coal, oil, pharmaceuticals or tobacco? The NRA has pulled the one of the greatest cons in American history. The Koch brothers wish they could get that kind of support.

[calimary]

99. Welcome to DU, LakeVermilion!

Good to have you with us. The NRA... aw shit. Don't get me started.

[Crunchy Frog]

53. Or all gun owners should carry insurance on those guns

that will cover the costs of any mayhem committed with them.

Would never happen though. "Responsible" gun owners don't want that kind of responsibility.

[SQUEE]

193. Actually, I do

I am in support of a reasonable, non punitive insurance requirement, with tiered pricing and rebates/ discounts for training and storage provisions.

[pipoman]

126. While I despise the NRAs politics

There isn't another organization on the planet that has taught more people firearms safety, advocated firearms safety, from beginners and children to professionals and law enforcement. They are about the single source for firearms safety materials in the country.

I have long wondered why those like gun control organizations don't provide more safety materials, including sponsoring free private sale nics checks at gun shows.

[sarisataka]

147. Sadly it's true

for any firearms training, the NRA is the go to source.

A couple months back a school asked me to teach a" don't touch" type course on guns to the kids. I contacted every major GC group, I think 15 different ones, about kids and safety. MAIG was the only one to reply; they said to ask my local PD.

For lack of other resource, I used the NRA Eddie Eagle; we even received the materials free through a grant program . Likely some will accuse me of promoting the NRA, even though they were never mentioned to the kids. Still I will always choose knowledge over ignorance.

[Liberal_in_LA]

20. omg

[otohara]

22. At Least He Was Arrested & Charged

I expected to read it was yet another accidental shooting and he walked

He may still if the mom says it was an accident, like the mother who's 3 year old was shot by some nut shooting squirrels and trash
in his back yard, the bullet shot a girl visiting neighbors.

[adieu]

45. Walking away from an accidental shooting only works

when the shooter is white and the victim is black.

[warrior1]

24. Are this gun owners going to kill all of their children

just showing them their guns?

What a waste of life ruin again. Thanks NRA, this child's death is on you hands again.

[mikeysnot]

42. They don't care, the means justifies the end...

to busy counting the $$$$$$.

[stone space]

28. Looks like the Laser Sight works, and the gun did what it is designed and engineered to do. (nt)

[calimary]

107. Welcome to DU, stone space!

Great to have you join us. But on a thread like this - AY-YI-YI... I'm so angry and outraged - I personally want to lock that asshole up and melt the key! After personally taking away ALL his fun little toys. And making sure all he sees are photographs of that kid - whom he killed in his own reckless arrogance and stupidity. Someone upthread posted a comment along the lines of - "but it (arrest, jail, penalties) won't bring that kid back." Okay then, what's the answer? So then we do nothing?

[yesphan]

32. "A single bullet struck the child above the eye, causing him to start bleeding and fall over. "

A rather anemic description of what most likely occurred.

[Schema Thing]

34. wouldn't "killing him" instead of "causing him to..." have been a more accurate description?

[lpbk2713]

33. "Here, hold my beer while I impress everyone with my laser sight."

Big dumbass.


I'd love to see what bumper stickers this mouth breather has on his pickup.

[calimary]

35. Dear God! You do NOT point ANY gun at ANY person! EVER!!!

Shit - I've been to shooting ranges myself, and I have heard that MANY times there. I hope they throw the book at this asshole! And line his prison cell with photos of the innocent boy he killed!

[etherealtruth]

44. Absolutely horrible

Senseless death by gun. My heart breaks for the child and those that loved him.

[Crunchy Frog]

46. Tree of liberty watered once again.

No guns have been injured.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

54. That is a violation of gun safety 101

I don't own guns, never have and most likely never will. I did spend time in the Marine Corps and guess what the second primary rule of gun safety is? ALWAYS CHECK FOR A CHAMBERED ROUND! Merely seeing it has no magazine does not promise safety.
The first rule? NEVER POINT A GUN (RIFLE, WEAPON ETC) AT ANYONE UNLESS YOU INTEND TO KILL THEM.
This guys needs to go to jail.............

[BeyondGeography]

56. Insane and nauseating...time to make people pay for these incidents

These "accidents" need to be criminalized. There is simply too much carelessness out there. Stiff sentencing will help save lives.

[Make7]

58. Failed to make sure gun was unloaded. Pointed gun at a person. Had finger on gun's trigger.

What are the odds this man thought himself a responsible gun owner?

[arcane1]

61. "He insisted that he did not keep the guns loaded"

As someone said upthread, one must always assume that every gun-owner is NOT a responsible one, until proven to be so. It doesn't get any more preventable than this

[passiveporcupine]

69. Guns are just tools

except for some reason, in this country, they are fetishized like a fancy sports car...something you need to show off to prove how manly you are (or womanly...I am sure some women show off their guns too). I don't understand it. I have lots of "manly" tools, but I don't feel the need to show them off to anyone. I will never understand this country's gun culture.

[AnneD]

70. Stories like this just make me cringe....

I grew up in a hunting family. If you ever, ever, pointed the gun in any other direction than the target, dad would have skinned you alive. Guns were broken down and unloaded when carrying them around.

In fact before a gun was ever placed in your hands, you had to know your safety. You didn't even handle a rifle your first time out. You were a spotter and camp gopher.

I am sorry this kid had a stupid uncle and hope his Uncle can deal with the implications of this.

[Damansarajaya]

79. Heh, that reminds me.

My dad used to make us carry around an UNLOADED gun for the first hunting season. If you spotted game, he'd run over and let you put a shell in . . .

[AnneD]

88. THAT....

was the 2nd season for us.

[AtheistCrusader]

144. Interesting.

I was thinking I would take a camera with me the first hunting season with my son. No guns.

This method might be good too.

[AtheistCrusader]

83. There is a safety feature that could have prevented this.

Last edited Mon May 5, 2014, 06:56 PM - Edit history (1)

Aside from 'uncle' using the wet shit between his ears, of course. It's called a magazine disconnect. It would have prevented it from firing with the mag out, even with a round in the chamber.

Still, this guy violated ALL the rules of handing a firearm.


You don't point a gun at anything you do not wish to DESTROY. Loaded or unloaded. No one has ever qualified that rule 'don't point a gun at anything you do not wish to destroy unless you are mildly of the opinion it is unloaded'.


I threw a relative out of my house once for behavior like that, EVEN THOUGH I knew for certain the gun was unloaded myself. Doesn't matter. You point that shit at any part of another human in my presence in anything less than a fight for survival, you're done. Get the fuck out of my house, get the fuck out of my life, before you fuck up and take some poor innocent bystander's life.

[marions ghost]

86. You may be smart

but many aren't.

[AtheistCrusader]

92. I agree.

Still, accidental shootings still trend down over the last 50 years, so, people DO get the message for the most part.

Sad though. If people can't obey the first damn rule of firearms, they should at least do everyone the courtesy of aiming it at themselves when they 'prove' it is unloaded.

[marions ghost]

96. Nah

people don't get the message. What we need to do is prosecute people like this, put them in jail for murder.
Stop defining this as accidental. It is not. And you know it is not.

Stiff penalties are about the only thing that makes idiots wake up. This guy is responsible--negligent homicide.

This is how to teach people that guns really do kill.

Would it be just an accident if the man said, "let me show you what happens if I swing a baseball bat at your head..." and hit his nephew with a bat, killing him? Would people say "what a terrible accident?"

It's the same thing.

[AtheistCrusader]

100. Oh, absolutely. I agree it's not an accident.

It's often classified as such, but I agree, it's criminal negligence, or involuntary manslaughter, or some similar charge. It needs to be. Every time.

Wholly concur.

[marions ghost]

112. Then people like you

who support guns for all --you need to be more vocal in advocating for change in the legal view of these so-called accidents. You can speak in ways that somebody might hear. There needs to be a strong and organized opposition to the NRA views and talking points among gun owners.

[AtheistCrusader]

122. We do, but

I have no voice with the NRA because I am not a member due to its political activism. You have to pay to play, and I won't have my money going to tear down democratic candidates, because there aren't enough voices like mine to shift the NRA's political position.

I'm sorry, but we don't have the leverage.

But range day, training, you bet. The rules that prevent this sort of tragedy, are the mantra, all day every day.
It saddens me that this child has died. Cannot be brought back.

[marions ghost]

184. Find a way to have some leverage

it's the missing voice in this debate.

[Blue_Tires]

151. You can't "out-think" morons...

Gun safes, trigger locks, trigger guards, safety catches, extra classroom instruction, etc...

Pretty much every kind of preventative measure imaginable is easily defeated by the stupid and careless...Even if the so-called "smart gun" ever becomes a reality...

[geomon666]

84. Another successful gun story.

[friendly_iconoclast]

97. Never trust *anyone* who does not handle firearms safely...

...and I do mean anyone:

[CreekDog]

98. why not some requirements before they are allowed to?

training, testing, registration, licensing, etc.

[friendly_iconoclast]

101. You can't eliminate stupidity- DiFi had a concealed weapons permit

[CreekDog]

104. you're dodging the question, if you're afraid to answer it, at least say so

what you're trying to conceal is saying that you oppose any mandatory licensing, registration and regular testing of gun safety, knowledge and laws to be able to own or shoot a firearm.

one wonders how proud you are of such positions when you'll go to such lengths to not reveal them.

[oneofthe99]

109. What type of mandatory testing would you propose?

[CreekDog]

118. what's your favorite Al Sharpton quote?

would you consider him a hero, or just a wise and honorable man that you'd like to emulate?

[oneofthe99]

121. Can't answer the question

It was a simple question , you said you want a mandatory safety test


Answer my question...........

[CreekDog]

129. my question about Al Sharpton was asked a long time ago

not just by me, but by others.

you agree with him on white privilege. wow.

[CreekDog]

150. answer mine, what is your favorite quote by Al Sharpton

why are you evasive on Al Sharpton?

you choose him as your avatar and the last thing you want to tell us is what specific thing he said and position he took that you like.

[oneofthe99]

124. Is it maybe you can't answer because you haven't a clue about what you're talking about?

[friendly_iconoclast]

133. Sound FX:<ding, ding, ding> We have a winner!

Gun control advocacy is one of the few areas at DU in which willful ignorance
is not only accepted but celebrated, in no wise different from young-earth creationists.

[oneofthe99]

137. Yeah' I'm beginning to notice that

[CreekDog]

152. is there any test and registration that you would support?

ANY, provided it's mandatory?

[CreekDog]

160. didn't think you'd answer the question of whether you'd support a test or registration

that's the thing that impresses me the least about the gun advocates around here.

most of them when confronted with their position, won't admit what they actually are against or for.

you had the chance to say, "I oppose any mandatory testing and/or registration," but when asked, you ran. you ran like the question was chasing you.

the gun advocates around here aren't taking courageous positions because when actually confronted about what their positions are, they run rather than state them.

i'm not impressed.

and the worst thing is that instead of stating your own position, all you want to do is try to get me to give every last detail of an idea for testing and registration so you can pick each one apart and everyone can get lost in the details, while you're saved from having to state outright that there's not a single form of mandatory testing and registration that you'll support.

it's game you're playing and it's the opposite of courage or conviction.

we're not in the same party. we don't have a single thing in common politically.

[friendly_iconoclast]

166. You forget that no one owes you an explanation

We all see a tragedy caused by criminal negligence (and it is without a doubt criminal
negligence, not an accident) , and the first thing you want is
more restrictions- but you are unwilling and/or unable to explain what restrictions you want.

I'd say that people here have been more than fair with you.
I owe no explanation to someone who embraces ignorance and wants to exploit tragedy for political points

It's quite telling that when others refuse to hew the line you want, at least two of you
have resorted to declaring who is or isn't a Democrat or what is or isn't the "Democratic" viewpoint...

[CreekDog]

171. well you're quizzing me on the same topic

but you don't want to say what you think of ANY mandatory registration, testing or licensing. you won't even say that you absolutely oppose it or that you might support it under some conditions.

you're playing a game with everyone here. you can play it with me, that's fine.

if you're going to act all put upon that someone asks you whether or not you support gun control measures in a thread where people are talking about gun control (where you are as well) then there's something up where you you feel out of place politically at DU that you can't even say what you believe.

and that's not my problem.

[friendly_iconoclast]

115. Hard to dodge a question that hadn't been asked

And yes, I do oppose registration as it has been used in at least two states
(California and New York) to seize firearms that were previously legal (and reamin so
in other states).

Why are you lot so reluctant to concede that small detail?

[friendly_iconoclast]

132. What type of "mandatory licensing, registration and ...testing" would you propose?

[Hoyt]

119. If gun lovers didn't protest everytime restrictions are proposed, maybe child would be alive.

Last edited Mon May 5, 2014, 06:48 PM - Edit history (1)

But, gungeoneers even use such tragedies to criticize Democrats.

I guess she should have stood there like the well trained militia types with her finger along the receiver as if in a war zone.

[friendly_iconoclast]

125. Why shouldn't unsafe gun handlers be criticized? You do it regularly

I guess it's just *those* people who you're willing to call on it...

[Hoyt]

140. This is a Democratic forum. You ought to be criticizing your fellow gun abusers.

[AtheistCrusader]

146. I see nothing but criticism in this thread.

But the criticism is mostly on-target, rather than extrapolating some sort of 'intent' from laser sights, etc.

The guy was criminally negligent. The cautionary tale is getting around. He is quite likely to pay for it in court, and a lot of people are going to hear about it, so while that doesn't bring THIS kid back, it might save others in the future.

The guy shot a kid in the head. No one here is defending that.

[friendly_iconoclast]

163. DiFi was a gun abuser, and the picture illustrates that

ANYONE who acts negligently with a gun, like the guy in the OP, should be called
on it- regardless of party affiliation, occupation, and/or station in life...

[Hoyt]

169. You just don't like her speaking ill of guns and those who need them

[friendly_iconoclast]

170. She had a difficult-to-obtain CCW permit and is a hypocrite

[CreekDog]

172. be that as it may

now why are you hiding your own opinions on gun control in a thread where you are openly questioning people about theirs?

why are you threatened that people would actually ask what you think of gun control measures when you're asking them what they think?

why are you threatened? do you just not fit in with us politically? is that why you're getting into fights here with people on this topic? how far out are your opinions?

they must be extreme since you won't state them. extreme beyond what even imagined they were.

and that's something.

[friendly_iconoclast]

175. You seem to have missed reply #115. Also, you're not a telepsychologist...

(no one is, no matter how often they claim to know others' thoughts) and your imagination is quite active

BTW, you're far from the first self-appointed witchfinder/zampolit I've tussled with.
Most of them no longer post here.

[oneshooter]

178. What restrictions and/or training would you support, Hoyt?

[Hoyt]

195. If a gun fancier can't go a year without a gun, they are too ill to own them. That's Test #1.

Could you pass?

[SQUEE]

194. Did you use proper safety protocols

When threatening to kill people for money Hoyt?

[Hoyt]

196. I'd like to see that threat, SQuee. Of course, as usual, you are probably reading out of context

from posts made long before you were here, at least under Squee.

[SQUEE]

198. read my join date,

and answer my question, or did you not claim to being an armed robber?

[Hoyt]

200. No SQUEE, I did not. Read the post in context and, if need be, get someone with sense to explain it

to you. Also, show me where SQUEE was involved in the thread; thus, having first hand knowledge of the context.

[SQUEE]

201. run, run!.. back peddle my boy

.. and then .. dance with me Hoyt. dance with me into oblivion...

I can read a thread and not comment, I do it ALLLL the time, not as much as you have to, but that's another story.


Were you safe about your robberies Hoyt? Did you follow all the 4 rules, answer the question. release all that guilt you carry.

[dembotoz]

111. damn it works!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[deathrind]

114. Horrible.

[kelliekat44]

117. I am so tired of hearing stories like this. One day, maybe, people will wake up. nt

[randys1]

127. no gun, no dead nephew

Gun ownership by anyone other than mountain men who live off of what they hunt or fish, is unnecessary...other than for maybe

protection, so the adult thing to do in a society, i.e. get rid of all guns, would have to be done over time so that the bad guys arent the only ones with guns, but it can be done if a mature adult society wants to survive.

[AScott]

136. Do you actually think getting rid of all guns is a feasible goal

in the United States?

[Hoyt]

142. Australia did it in 1996. They won't disappear overnight, but you gotta start somewhere.

Every decade we sit on our rears, gun fanciers cause another 100 million of the dang things to be manufactured, majority falling into hands of neo-bigots/nazis/militias. That's nuts, but then look who is buying the dang things.

[randys1]

149. may have to wait for evolution to do away with all the children walking around in adult bodies first

[pipoman]

138. I have a problem with Glocks...I know, there are diehard glock

People around who refuse to acknowledge the function of Glocks is flawed resulting in likely more negligent discharges than any other hand gun. Not only does it not have a true safety, it doesn't have a magazine disconnect requiring a magazine in the gun before the gun can fire. It can't have a magazine disconnect because you must remove the magazine, then 'dry fire' the gun to disassemble the gun. It is ridiculously prone to negligent discharge.

[Hoyt]

143. Do you really think most gun fanciers care?

[SQUEE]

197. I agree

I try my hardest to talk people away from Glocks, but media exposure and even common parlance have people convinced it is some kind of Tier 1 wonder gun....

[madinmaryland]

145. Another "RESPONSIBLE" gun owner until he wasn't...

FUCK THE NRA.

[Egnever]

153. Why the hell would you ever pull the trigger.

Ever?

I just dont understand why these idiots pull the trigger over and over. Even if you think it is not loaded what is the point in pulling the trigger?

[npk]

154. According to the article, the man's son accidental pulled the trigger

Gun pointed at the head of the grown man's nephew and the other little kid in the room takes the gun out of the hand of the man and apparently pulls the trigger. My question is why this man and other adults in general have this fascination with showing their kids or other small children's guns in the first place. What good come from this?

[Egnever]

155. Hmm so another misleading headline then.

The man didnt actualy shoot the kid another kid did.

Still a fucked up situation that could have easily been avoided.


I grow weary of lying headlines though.

[npk]

156. OK maybe I am wrong...

When I read the story the first time I read this quote, "Olm said that when the nephew reached out for the gun, he pulled the trigger. A single bullet struck the child above the eye, causing him to start bleeding and fall over. "

I took the quote to mean the nephew reached out for the gun and pulled the trigger, but the nephew was the boy killed, so I guess I read that wrong. Still either way the man should not have been pointing the gun anywhere near the boy, nor should he have been showing the boys the guns in the first place.

[Egnever]

161. Then I am back to

WTF with pulling the trigger when you are pointing a gun at someone. Just the most stupid thing you can possibly do loaded or not.

[npk]

165. Yep. Totally agree

How anyone, especially an adult, could point a gun at another person, even if they knew with complete certainty that the gun was knot loaded, is an idiot. I see so many "responsible" gun owners who actually do this quite often. It just proves that they are not mentally competent enough to own firearms.

[brentspeak]

179. Headline did get the man's state of residence wrong

Uncle is from Pennsylvania and the nephew he killed was from NJ. Incident took place at the uncle's residence in PA.

[ileus]

157. Rule #1...

Never...

No Not Ever...

Let your muzzle cover anything you're not willing to destroy.

[barbtries]

158. killings like this need to stop being called accidents.

this death was preventable. omigawd.

[Egnever]

162. Agreed

pulling that trigger was no accident. It should be against the law to pull a trigger when a weapon is pointed at someone. Loaded or not.

[WinkyDink]

159. Another law-abiding good citizen kills a person.

[uponit7771]

168. WTF is this being called an "accident"!?!?

[flvegan]

182. I remember when DU was better than this.

The guy with the gun is a moron, got it. A kid is dead, killed by a family member. Here on DU, we commence with the Dance of the Idiots.

[aikoaiko]

183. Simple rules to avoid such tragic heart break.

All guns are always loaded.
Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.
Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.
—Jeff Cooper

ALWAYS keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.
ALWAYS keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot.
ALWAYS keep the gun unloaded until ready to use.
—The National Rifle Association, The fundamental NRA rules for safe gun handling

[grahamhgreen]

186. Way to stand your ground, I guess.

[PubsFU]

188. Tragic Story but it is/was a predictable and preventable murder

but gun owwers would rather try and beat the proven stats of 40%+ of them are going to murder another family memebr with the gun or do themselves in with the gun in the house.

I guess gun control via attrition will work too.

[friendly_iconoclast]

190. "40%+ of them are going to murder..." I don't think so

There are ca. 80 million gun owners in this country. I think even the dullest among us
would have noticed 32 million dead bodies by now...

[PubsFU]

192. Get back to me after you put a bullet in your kids head by accident of course

[friendly_iconoclast]

202. Your opinion of me is as accurate as your crime statistics...

[hack89]

199. Pulling "facts" out of your ass don't help your cause.

40%? Care to share a link?

[Kaleva]

189. This happened in a gated community.

But apparently the man still thought he needed a collection of guns.

"It happened in the Wild Acres Development, Delaware Township, Pike County.

"It's a tragedy," Sally McFadden, who lives in Wild Acres Development, said. "No child should die by gunshot."

McFadden told Eyewitness News she believes what happened in the private gated community could have been prevented."

http://www.pahomepage.com/story/d/story/police-man-shoots-kills-11-year-old-nephew/30679/hEp0lKkY4kmDYjoE6Ngh3w

[johnlucas]

203. There's a destructive impulse within every human being

Guns are NOT Defense.
Never were.

SHIELDS are Defense.
Force Fields are Defense.
Magical Barriers are Defense.

Guns are OFFENSE.
Always were.

And when people talk about protecting themselves & immediately looking toward the gun to do that, there's dishonesty going on.
Guns are LOUSY for protecting a person ESPECIALLY when the person is not military-ready & on guard at all times.
When you walk to your car from your house there are many moments in your movements that make you vulnerable to an attack.
When you are turning your back to lock your door with your keys...
When you are ducking down as you enter the car to sit on the seat...
When you put your key into the ignition & crank it up...

So many moments where your attention & your stance are blind to attack.
You will NOT be ready to draw that weapon in a rational sober-minded manner in those instances.
And without a rational sober mind, you probably won't shoot straight if you manage to get the gun ready to shoot.
You will be surprised & snuck up on by anyone who saw an opening to victimize you.
And if you're surprised & snuck up on that defeats the entire purpose of having that gun to begin with.
You're supposed to be ready for an attack at ANY time.
The sneaker may draw a gun on you before you're able to reach your weapon.
He/she could shoot you & take your weapon along with any other valuables in his/her getaway.

Thinking "GUNS FIRST" is a sign of a pathetic defense strategy.
Awareness of your surroundings protects you more than any gun would.
You would have foresight & see things coming from afar.
To protect your home, an elaborate system of cameras & sensors would work better than a gun at your nightstand.
A strategy to scare the intruders out of the home before they get to you would work better than a gun.
Even a recording of gunshots blared loudly would do the trick.

When you're sleeping, you are the MOST vulnerable to attack.
And if you're startled awake by a break-in, do you REALLY believe you can think & see clearly enough to shoot that gun properly from the sleeping stupor???
If you're "safety-minded" & lock your gun in a safe or a gun cabinet, do you think you can enter the safe's combination or get the key to unlock the cabinet without fumbling around bleary-eyed???

AT BEST a gun is just one 'last resort' component of a comprehensive defense strategy.
AT BEST.
It is NEVER the go-to solution for defense.
By definition it is offense.
It's only use in a defense strategy is counter-offense.
The parry in swordfighting, the counter punch in boxing.

Most people don't have military training.
Most people don't walk in ways like a ninja who sees every surrounding from every stance.
Even in the military, guns cause havoc. That's why something like Friendly Fire exists.
Even the BEST trained people with firearms make mistakes. SERIOUS mistakes.
So if they F up, what makes you think you won't?
Sure the pressure of your neighborhood environment is different for you than a soldier's warzone but that doesn't mean you would operate better.
In a warzone a soldier gets more hands-on practice & experience shooting at an enemy—since the enemy is shooting at the soldier.
In your neighborhood, you're dealing with the rare attack in a life where you mostly see no attacks.
You're more likely to be lulled into a false sense of security & your skills & instincts with firearms may be dulled because of the lack of attacks.

You don't even walk like someone ready for an attack.
You don't move with your back towards the wall & peer over corners before walking out.
You're not looking a mile in front you anticipating who could be friend & who could be foe.
You're not making frequent 360° turns to scan the area in your blind spots.
You haven't practiced making a clean draw with arm fully extended & gun perfectly targeted.
How good are your reflexes & how fast can you make that draw?
You haven't practiced how to aim that gun in all direction & thus move your body to be ready to shoot no matter where the attack could come from.
It might even be from above!
You ain't gonna learn this shooting targets at a gun range or shooting cans in your backyard.

You definitely haven't even thought about the legal & ethical considerations of shooting a firearm.
Whether the shot actually needed to be made to protect yourself.
Whether your gun may have escalated a resolvable conflict.
Whether you may cause an unintended crossfire by bringing your gun into the situation.
Maybe you're perfectly trained but somebody else is not.
Maybe they will try to shoot the attacker TOO & MISS.

How are you gonna be ready for whatever scenario an attack may present with your piddling handgun?

In the military there's no such thing as a solo guy with a gun ANYWAY.
There is a whole team of people watching a particular zone & an elaborate offense strategy if an enemy walks into the territory.
Sniper towers, ground-level/mid-level guards, turrets, all that.
Can't adequately guard an area with just one man unless that man is the Terminator or Robocop.
So guns make a HORRIBLE choice for protecting your home or your own self.
And we know how it gets even worse if there's kids involved because kids are not disciplined enough to follow a defense strategy.
Guns at home cause lots of problems which is well documented.
But guns in travel can cause just as much.
Going to the supermarket with a gaggle of kids GUARANTEES you will NOT be ready to draw in an attack.
The kid may out of curiosity pull on your holster.
The kid may sneak into mama's purse.
Most likely as we see too often the first people that gun will kill is your own family members.

**********************************************************************

So I write all of this for what exactly.

What I'm talking about is seeing that guns are REALLY lousy for self-defense...
...why do so many people still look to guns to protect them in the first place?

My theory is that guns feed into that destructive impulse within each & every human being.
It gets as deep-rooted as sexual impulses.
Human beings want to tear shit up.
They want to destroy things deep down.
Guns being so destructive give people a sense of power.
Even if they are not outwardly aggressive there's a piece of them that wants you to bow down knowing they could end your life anytime they get ready.
To know that you hold life & death itself in your own hands.
Whether you use that to protect others or attack others, the end result is the same.
"I CAN KILL YOU! SO RESPECT ME & MY POWER!"
It's a sample of God-power.

The same emotional attachments & ego-identification that the club, the spear, the knife, the sword carry, the gun carries as well.

Talking about an elaborate system of cameras, alarms, & sensors which would actually work sounds so wimpy.
It's not sexy no matter how effective it is. It's too passive.
No, holding this weapon of mass destruction makes me feel in charge of my own destiny & the destinies of others.
I may be kind with it. I may be cruel with it. But either way I'm powerful & you better know it.

That asshole Byron Smith who killed his 2 teenage burglars in the basement was an Eagle Scout & a member of the Department of Homeland Security. An engineer even.
You would think a guy like this would be more resourceful than to resort to a Ruger Mini-14 & .22 caliber revolver to protect his house.
He left the front door open for goodness sake!
No reinforced windows? No elaborate snares to trap the intruders? No firecrackers to shock the kids & scare them out of the house?
Not even a simple guard dog?
That's because he was not about protecting his house.
He wanted to show his power & get revenge on his intruders.
Getting robbed/burgled sucks I know. I was a recent victim myself.
You fantasize on what you wanna do to the people who victimized you. It's understandable.
But then you return to reality & come up with smarter ways to protect your house & your valuables.

Guns are made for one purpose & one purpose only: TO KILL.
To kill for food as in hunting. To kill an enemy force as in war. To kill an attacker as in crime prevention.
But nothing else but to kill.
A knife can kill. A hammer can kill. A rock can kill.
But a knife also cuts rope. A knife also spreads butter on toast. A knife also cuts brownies.
A hammer also strikes nails in boards for homebuilding & craftmaking.
A rock also builds roads. A rock also becomes part of a zen garden.
Guns do nothing but kill.

Something is wrong when we got pink guns on the market.
It's becoming a toy. Now we got guns for girls in pink.
A weapon of mass destruction treated as frivolously as the latest electronic gadget or fashion fad.

The 2nd Amendment has NOTHING to do with personal gun ownership.
That thing is talking about MILITIAS to defend the country.
But there's already militias.
Big organized ones called the U.S. Army. The U.S. Navy.
The U.S. Marines. The U.S. Air Force. The U.S. National Guard.
Militias have already been covered centuries ago.

Any personal gun ownership HAS to be highly regulated & monitored because of how deadly guns can be.
If they make allowances for people to use guns for hunting & crime prevention, the people wanting those guns better go through the gauntlet before getting access to one.
And as for the black market, that's easy to stop.
Trace the line from manufacturers/distributors to black market suppliers & crack down.
Put the damage on the CEO of the gunmaker to show how serious you are.
When he/she doesn't have immunity by position, that CEO will damn sure make sure that guns from his factory are handled responsibly.
Enough of that & those black market guns won't filter into the populace so easily.

This is a public safety issue because guns are too married to human ego for people to see them straight.
Take the stance that there are NO responsible gun owners & work your way backwards.
I'm not for banning them for hunting & even "self-defense".
But I want so much obstacle in front of getting that gun that the truism of "People Are Lazy" will take effect & discourage people from wanting to bother with it.
Sure you can kill with knives but you can't kill as many & you can't kill as fast.

John Lucas