What is our stated interest in the Ukraine?

[DisgustipatedinCA]

There's no doubt that Putin wants eastern Ukraine under his control, and that most of the separatists are aligned with Russia. But why has the US set itself up as the foil to Putin in the Ukraine? I clearly understand that Poland is a NATO member, and that this confers protection to them. But what about the next door neighbors? Why are we meddling in the Ukraine? What is our stated purpose? It would be logical to conclude that we want to keep Putin's ambitions in check, and that we want Western companies to profit from Ukraine's resources, but those aren't defensible reasons, even if they're the actual reasons. So what is our stated goal in the Ukraine, and how is it justified?

[el_bryanto]

1. From the State Department Press Release on April 28

The United States has taken further action today in response to Russia’s continued illegal intervention in Ukraine and provocative acts that undermine Ukraine’s democracy and threaten its peace, security, stability, sovereignty, and territorial integrity. At the contact group meeting in Geneva on April 17, 2014, Russia, Ukraine, the United States, and the European Union decided on a number of steps to deescalate the situation in eastern Ukraine, including refraining from further violence or provocative acts. Since April 17, Russia has done nothing to meet its Geneva commitments and in fact has further escalated the crisis. Russia’s involvement in the recent violence in eastern Ukraine is indisputable.

Here's the link.

While I agree that if we are doing it for the money, that's pretty bad, I'm not as sure about checking Putin's ambitions. Sometimes nations should have their ambitions checked (although it's always problematic when we do it, given our track record).

Bryant

[DisgustipatedinCA]

3. Thanks, el_bryanto

Before we go much further down this rathole, I wanted to learn more about what our stated goal was. If and when we end up with troops on the ground, I wanted to be able to refer back to something, so again, thanks for the link. I believe they're using a weak justification for actions that are being undertaken for reasons other than those stated, but as you say, we have an established track record. None of it is surprising.

[DJ13]

2. The US is still pissed about Snowden?

[Tommy_Carcetti]

4. It's actually just "Ukraine." "The Ukraine" is considered non-standard.

To answer your question, though, in the 1990s, the US and Russia along with Ukraine were signatories to treaties whereby Ukraine agreed to cede its Soviet nuclear arsenal, and in exchange, the US and Russia (the key nuclear powers of the world) would respect the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine within its present borders. On its face, Russia appears to have violated those treaties by its annexation of Crimea, and any further annexation of Ukrainian land by Russia would be considered further violation of those treaties.

[CJCRANE]

7. "The Ukraine" was standard until the early 90s.

It changed when it became an independent country after the fall of the Soviet Union.

[Jenoch]

10. It was never "the standard". Just because people got it wrong all the time does not mean it was

ever correct. Even when it was part of the Soviet Union, Ukraine was considered, supposedly, somewhat autonomous. At least, that is what the Soviets alleged, even though it was a lie. That's why Ukraine had their own representative to the U.N. during the Soviet days.

[jberryhill]

26. The Beatles specifically refer to "The Ukraine girls really knock me out"

That's authoritative for me.

[oldhippie]

14. Is it the same with "the Netherlands?"

It always seemed to me that it just sounded right to say "the" Netherlands. It feels sort of the same with "the" Ukraine. It may not be official, but it seems to sound right.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

17. I found a good explanation of it here:

http://writerzim.com/2013/12/24/list-of-countries-with-the-in-their-names/

The official name is "Kingdom of the Netherlands" but the press usually uses just "Netherlands" in its reporting. (And then there's the whole "Holland" thing).

Regarding "the Ukraine", it sounds right because it was pretty much accepted as right up until the Soviet breakup. But it's been a sore spot for Ukrainians long before that. Think of it like how we think of the "Democrat Party."

[DisgustipatedinCA]

18. Thank you for (the) answer to my question

After reading your reply, I took a 5-minute tour of this treaty, which isn't a treaty, but a memorandum of understanding. The bottom line, with respect to enforcement, seems to be that when the terms of the document are violated, a country may act, but is under no obligation to do so. This does go a long way toward answering the question I had. I'm not sure we're not subordinating Ukraine's economic interests to our own, as specified in the memorandum, and the current crisis doesn't appear to have anything to do with nuclear weapons, which was the basis of this Budapest agreement, but I can at least see that a case can be made for sanctions.

[Scootaloo]

28. They're answers, but thye're not particularly compelling answers.

When does the US care about treaty violations? it seems a little slapdash. Also , why are illegal annexations and occupations by some nations totally in the clear for some nations but not others?

This isn't any sort of defense of Russia - if they're in violation then they're in violation, you can't really say like "that's okay because XYZ."

What I'm curious about is why the US very suddenly gives a shit this time.

[Yavin4]

5. To give a bunch old men who were too chicken shit to fight in Vietnam...

another chance to show how tough they with other people's kids.

[Demo_Chris]

8. Spot on. In any case, on the politican end we want the Ukraine...

For the same reason Russia must secure it. It is vital to Russian security.

[dixiegrrrrl]

9. Perfect.

clap: :

[warrprayer]

12. ^^^^^ this

[TBF]

25. No, he asked for "stated goals" -

you gave us the real reason.

Well, one of them.

1) Ukraine must join EU in order to further goals of whichever multi-national corporations are after their resources
and
2) War is "good for the economy". You need 120,000 more jobs - why not make bullets? It is the American way!

[Scootaloo]

29. I'm not sure it's THAT far

We're not going to fight Russia. Period. Shit we were stumbling around against Afghan and Iraqi militia, fighting the Russians is the LAST thing anyone in the pentagon wants to do.

But there ARE a lot of old farts in there, whose careers are built on the cold war, who are probably feeling relevant again and loving it.

[nationalize the fed]

6. Read between the lines

(Note: Posted in full- it's a press release)

White House FACT SHEET: U.S. Crisis Support Package for Ukraine

President Obama and Vice President Biden have made U.S. support for Ukraine an urgent priority as the Ukrainian government works to establish security and stability, pursue democratic elections and constitutional reform, revive its economy, and ensure government institutions are transparent and accountable to the Ukrainian people. Ukraine embarks on this reform path in the face of severe challenges to its sovereignty and territorial integrity, which we are working to address together with Ukraine and our partners in the international community.

The United States is committed to ensuring that Ukrainians alone are able to determine their country’s future without intimidation or coercion from outside forces. To support Ukraine, we are today announcing a new package of assistance totaling $50 million to help Ukraine pursue political and economic reform and strengthen the partnership between the United States and Ukraine.

Elections and Constitutional Reform: Constitutional reform and free and fair elections are keys to Ukraine’s democratic development. Assistance in this area is a down payment on the country’s democratic development. We stand ready to provide further assistance to the new government after elections.

The United States is contributing an $11.4 million package to support the integrity of the May 25 elections. These funds are being used to advance democratic processes – not to support a particular candidate or electoral outcome. These efforts include voter education programs, transparent election administration, effective oversight of the election process, election security and a redress of infractions, and a diverse, balanced and policy-focused media environment.

The United States is contributing support and monitors to the OSCE’s election observation mission and other monitoring groups. U.S. funded programs will provide at least 250 long-term observers and over 1,700 short-term observers.

We are also sending additional experts to provide advice on issues such as constitutional checks and balances, local governance, public participation, and the establishment of an independent, transparent judicial system.

Economic Assistance: The United States has already signed a $1 billion loan guarantee to help Ukraine meet its financial obligations and protect vulnerable citizens from the impact of economic adjustments. We have also supported Ukraine’s work with the IMF to secure a loan program worth $14-$18 billion.

As these U.S., IMF, and European funds begin to flow, we will have technical experts from the U.S. Treasury Department on the ground to help the Ukrainian government allocate them effectively to stabilize the economy and ensure all the regions benefit. Currently, there are three banking advisors in Kyiv and we will be deploying public debt management and macroeconomic advisors in the coming week. We are also committed to providing additional technical assistance in the areas of budget and tax administration.

Energy Security: Over the coming weeks, expert teams from several U.S. government agencies will travel to the region to help Ukraine meet immediate and longer term energy needs.

Today, a U.S. interagency expert team arrived in Kyiv to help Ukraine secure reverse flows of natural gas from its European neighbors. The team will continue on to Poland, Hungary, and Slovakia in the coming days to work on the details of these arrangements. Reverse flows of natural gas will provide Ukraine with additional immediate sources of energy.

U.S. technical experts will join with the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development and others in May to help Ukraine develop a public-private investment initiative to increase conventional gas production from existing fields to boost domestic energy supply. A technical team will also engage the government on measures that will help the Ukrainian government ensure swift and environmentally sustainable implementation of contracts signed in 2013 for shale gas development.

Department of Energy and USAID specialists will travel to Ukraine next month to provide advice on how to maximize energy efficiency, which could deliver potentially huge cost savings to Ukraine and rationalize energy consumption.

Rule of Law and Anti-Corruption: The United States is committed to helping Ukraine break the cycle of corruption that acts as a tax on business, an impediment to economic growth, and a drain on public trust in government. Technical advisors from the Departments of State and Justice have already been advising the government on anti-corruption measures. Today we are expanding this assistance program with additional commitments.

Attorney General Holder will co-host an international conference in London April 29-30 to help identify, trace, and recover proceeds of corruption stolen by the former regime. This is part of an ongoing effort, including work by an FBI investigative team on the ground in Kyiv to help the government of Ukraine recover assets stolen from the Ukrainian people.

The United States will provide advice and assistance to help modernize Ukraine’s government procurement in accordance with international standards, including the creation of a vetted anti-corruption unit. We will offer technical assistance to that vetted unit to help build a sustainable anti-corruption regime within Ukraine, as we have done with substantial results in other parts of the world.

Specialized teams of prosecutors and investigators will help the Ukrainian government with other forms of technical assistance to put in place the proper legal and regulatory framework to fight corruption. The teams will also serve as a resource to ensure follow-through and effective implementation.

People-to-People Ties: To further strengthen ties between the people of Ukraine and the United States, we are announcing our intent to establish a new bilateral visa regime that will extend the standard validity of visas for businesspeople and tourists from 5 years to 10 years on a negotiated reciprocal basis.

Security Assistance: In addition to the $50 million package, today we are announcing the provision of $8 million of non-lethal military assistance to allow the Ukrainian armed forces and State Border Guard Service to fulfill their core security missions. The additional supplies include:

Explosive Ordnance Disposal equipment and handheld radios for Ukraine’s Armed Forces.

Engineering equipment, communications equipment, vehicles, and non-lethal individual tactical gear for Ukraine’s Border Guard Service.

This is in addition to the $3 million of Meals Ready to Eat and nearly $7 million of health and welfare assistance the United States is already providing to Ukraine. The United States will continue to actively review requests for additional support as Ukraine’s government further modernizes its armed forces and deals with evolving threats.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/04/21/fact-sheet-us-crisis-support-package-ukraine

[DisgustipatedinCA]

20. Thanks, Nadin.

I think you're getting at the actual reason we're involved, which, by the way, seems to break the memorandum of understanding I just read about, specifically, the part that reads:
"The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the Final Act of the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe, to refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by Ukraine of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and thus to secure advantages of any kind."

Then again, Russia is also clearly not honoring the terms of this memorandum of understanding.

My current working thesis: with this Budapest memorandum, we've given ourselves enough wiggle room to establish sanctions against Russia, even though this dispute has nothing to do with nuclear weapons. And while Russia is certainly breaking their end of that bargain, and Putin wants to play some geopolitical games, so do we.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

11. Pissing contest.

[pampango]

13. Teritorial integrity would be a big one, I think. Once it is acceptable to redraw boundaries

based on who has the best military there will be the potential for a lot of border-related controversy in many parts of the world.

[Comrade Grumpy]

32. Kosovo. n/t

[Cali_Democrat]

15. We installed a neo-Nazi regime in Ukraine so we can take their resources....

... and frack to our heart's' content. I read it here on DU.

Victoria Nuland!!11!

[Tommy_Carcetti]

16. Cookies!!!!!!!!!!!1111!!!!!! nt

[DisgustipatedinCA]

22. I believe you've misunderstood my question.

I was asking about our stated interest, our rationale for involvement in ___ Ukraine, not the actual stuff that's going on with Victoria Nuland and PNAC pals.

[TBF]

19. "Stated interest" - you mean as opposed to what

is really going on? I think the press has been pretty effective at stating their case ...

What is really going on invariably involves natural resources the capitalists would like to get their hands on. We've seen this movie before ...

[DisgustipatedinCA]

21. Right--which is why I was drawing a distinction between stated interests and actual ones.

It sounds like we're on the same page on this one.

[jakeXT]

23. Could be multi-faceted

Key Sections of Pentagon Document on Post-Cold-War Strategy



Initial Draft (Feb. 18, 1992)



1) Our first objective is to prevent the re-emergence of a new rival, either

on the territory of the former Soviet Union or elsewhere, that poses a threat on

the order of that posed formerly by the Soviet Union. This is a dominant

consideration underlying the new regional defense strategy and requires that we

endeavor to prevent any hostile power from dominating a region whose resources

would, under consolidated control, be sufficient to general global power.



2) The U.S. must show the leadership necessary to establish and protect a

new order that holds the promise of convincing potential competitors that they

need not aspire to a greater role or pursue a more aggressive posture to protect

their legitimate interests. In non-defense areas, we must account sufficiently

for the interests of the advanced industrial nations to discourage them from

challenging our leadership or seeking to overturn the established political and

economic order. We must maintain the mechanism for deterring potential

competitors from even aspiring to a larger regional or global role.

http://www.yale.edu/strattech/92dpg.html

“However, if Moscow regains control over Ukraine, with its 52 million people and major resources as well as access to the Black Sea, Russia automatically again regains the wherewithal to become a powerful imperial state, spanning Europe and Asia.”

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article37954.htm

[TBF]

24. I can summarize in just a few words -

"We must protect our capitalist ventures around the world."

[Nye Bevan]

27. Attempting to keep Putin's rapacious ambitions in check? (nt)

[DisgustipatedinCA]

30. I'd agree with that being one of the actual reasons for our stance.

But it's not the rationale we're using.

[GeorgeGist]

31. Freedumb™