From Elliot Rodger's memoir: "I truly had no advantage at all. The Universe was not kind to me"

[cali]

Well, except for being born to two educated, well off people who loved him.

He makes no accusations of abuse. If he's to be believed, his parents loved him and listened to him. He was fortunate enough to travel widely. Nothing about his writing jumps out and screams psychotic. He doesn't remind me of any of the people I've worked with who had Asperger's Syndrome.

His emotional instability seems to have been pretty marked from young childhood. I'm puzzled as to why his parents didn't seek help for him long before they did.

He was the worst kind of raging snob who felt the world owed him whatever he wished and he clearly felt that way by the time he was 5. He had friends as a kid. There is little in his memoir to indicate that he was bullied significantly.

Yes, the NRA sucks. Yes, our culture puts out fantasies that many believe is their due. But this kid just seems to have been a little sociopath or psychopath. No conscience and no recognition that other people have feelings. Zero empathy.

[cali]

1. his facebook page

tons of pictures- almost all of them of... himself.

[Cali_Democrat]

4. He certainly was in love with himself

Kudos to the smart women who wouldn't touch him with a ten foot pole...

[Renew Deal]

29. That's what's on most peoples facebook pages

[joshcryer]

54. Link to his manifesto, a pitful, pathetic human being:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/225960813/Elliot-Rodger-Santa-Barbara-mass-shooting-suspect-My-Twisted-World-manifesto

I thought about making a thread about this pathetic POS, but meh. Getting into this dudes head has been exhausting, he's just, an utter shell of a human being in this writing. A truly lost entity. The worst part is that it seems there were so many instances someone could've got to him. You call him a sociopath/psychopath, sure, I can't disagree. There just seems that there were times his family could've helped him stem his loneliness. Toward the end it seems to me as if his own family didn't want to see the signs.

I suspect by morning we will hear his friends, Phillip and Addison, were among the dead he stabbed. It only makes sense as I suspect Addison suspected he was a murderer to be. If only Addison spoke up to someone after the trip to the beach.

Anyway, sorry for hijacking the top comment, thought it best be posted here. Really aggravating, demoralizing, depressing read. You see literally a human become unhinged. And for what...

[DonCoquixote]

2. If there is an afterlife

The just thing would be to make this soul listen to people that would have killed and died for the money he had.

[cali]

3. It wasn't just he money. He had many advantages.

I think anyone who reads that drivel will come to the same conclusion I did: total psychopath/sociopath.

[bettyellen]

5. he was jealous and angry of others having anything he didn't from his first memory at three.

reminded me of the Demon Seed. Very creepy, but almost nothing upstairs except for envy and hatred.

[Logical]

6. Mental health issues for sure. nt

[phil89]

102. Do we know if he was diagnosed with Mental Illness

or is it just the tired scapegoating?

[SoCalNative]

105. He makes mention in his "manifesto"

of being prescribed a medication by his psychiatrist that, after he did his own "research" on the drug decided it wasn't the correct medication for him so he never took it. The medication was risperidone, which is normally prescribed for schizophrenic tendencies and bi-polar disorder.

[Logical]

109. I know you are ready to execute him already! n-t

[wheniwasincongress]

7. In his "manifesto"

he says the woo book The Secret filled him with hope (The Secret maintains if you want something enough and visualize having it enough, you will get it.) He set his sights on winning the lottery

[roguevalley]

22. I have come to really dislike the word woo to describe

something. It sounds just too junior high to me. Just saying.

[wheniwasincongress]

27. How about "bullshit"

[whathehell]

103. I agree, and you know what?

There was a woman in my state who actually PRACTICED that

"visualize on what you want" and it will come true thing and she DID win the lottery!

God's honest truth.

[Mojo Electro]

81. I caught a blurb of that as well...

I guess his dad gave him a copy of the secret in an effort to help him. (?)

So rather than "put in the effort to get what you want out of life" the mesasge was "if you imagine what you want it will magically appear to you"... I think that might explain all the lottery tickets.

[standingtall]

8. What he really wanted was

Empowerment and worship. He was an entitled little prick. Thought anything in the world no matter what is was or who it was should belong to him if he desired it.

[cali]

14. sociopath. he didn't grasp or care that other people existed in their own right.

[Tom Ripley]

43. ^^^THIS^^^

[PasadenaTrudy]

28. He would have made

a great Wall St. banker...

[hatrack]

62. Yes, so sad he wasn't better at advanced mathematics

I'm sure a bright career in finance would have been his otherwise.

[m-lekktor]

9. you aren't kidding about the raging snob thing, holy crap!

i glanced through the manifesto and read parts but will read it from begin to end probably tomorrow when i have more time.

[Fred Sanders]

13. Reading it is a disservice to 14 grieving parents.

[cali]

15. no it's not. and it's not disrespectful either. And I'm quite certain that you have no right to

speak for them. that IS disrespectful and flat out wrong.

[Fred Sanders]

85. It is my opinion. Nothing to do with the parents. I bet they would agree, let the experts read it.

[Ash_F]

51. It might be a useful study on these types of people.

I am sure a lot of mental health professionals will want to look at that thing. Law enforcement too.

[Fred Sanders]

84. Of course. You, I and the media, we will misuse it, no expertise at all.

[Inkfreak]

87. You speak for no one but yourself.

I will not sit and wait for "experts" to tell me what to think. Sounds like a way to avoid critical thinking.

[Fred Sanders]

88. More a way to avoid empty speculation, preferred method of the media and too many viewers.

And Ash_F can speak for himself.

[Ash_F]

89. That's fair.

I admit I have already read parts of it. It is so extreme I can hardly believe it is not a parody.

[Lee-Lee]

10. As for why the parents didn't seek help sooner, or the proper help

It is all too common that parents either refuse to see their children for what they are, or think they are helping them by refusing to seek proper treatment for fear they will be "labeled".

I have seen cases where mentally ill children attacked multiple family members, I am talking things like went after mom with a kitchen knife, molested siblings, harmed animals, etc and parents refused to involve police for fear of "labeling" their child.

It never ends well.

[bhikkhu]

16. I wouldn't jump to conclusions and blame the parents too much

Having lived a good while, I've known plenty of good people with bad kids, who had all good intentions but who were ultimately helpless. Who doesn't know parents who are at their wits end about how to keep their kids out of trouble and put them on the right track?

We tend to overestimate the power parents have over their kids, and we overestimate our abilities to change people.

[cali]

17. this kid needed intensive intervention by the time he was 4. have you read his memoir/manifesto?

[demigoddess]

100. you're pretty right

I have close relatives with virtually no empathy and they had siblings with empathy. It was like they were just born without it. Like a birth defect maybe. Someone else with the same life experience who is the kindest person n the world. I don't think it is the parents fault, or the rearing wasn't done right. I have seen it up close, and it had nothing to do with rearing as far as I could see.

[SomethingFishy]

108. Well then these parents aren't common as they called the police on their son

and told them he was a danger to himself and others. The cops came, interviewed the kid and decided there was nothing to worry about.


"Shifman said the family called police several weeks ago after being alarmed by YouTube videos "regarding suicide and the killing of people."

Police interviewed Elliot Rodger and found him to be a "perfectly polite, kind and wonderful human," he added. Police did not find a history of guns, but did say Rodger "didn't have a lot of friends," had trouble making friends and didn't have any girlfriends."

http://www.oregonlive.com/today/index.ssf/2014/05/california_shooters_family_cal.html

[Lee-Lee]

111. "A few weeks ago"

This guy needed professional help long ago. The parents didn't do anything, then still not enough, until things reached the worst- too little, too late.

[SomethingFishy]

113. Armchair bullshit...

You have no idea what has been going on there. In your first post you claim they did nothing, that was wrong, now you claim they didn't do enough soon enough, maybe you should quit while you are ahead.

[hobbit709]

11. Life Lesson #1 The Universe as a whole could care less about you.

[cali]

12. "I kept searching for a job, but I still wasn't able to find one

I refused all of the jobs that Tony suggested to me. The problem was that most of the jobs that were available to me at the time were jobs I considered beneath me. My mother wanted me to get a simple retail job, and the thought of myself doing that was mortifying It would be completely against my character. I would never perform a low class service job. I am an intellectual who is destined for greatness."

http://www.scribd.com/embeds/225960813/content?start_page=1&view_mode=scroll&access_key=key-nKS6L3JwbdsgY3zycFSp&show_recommendations=true

[CSStrowbridge]

18. He reminds me of...

He reminds me of your average follower of Ayn Rand fans and MRA losers. That is a truly dangerous combination.

[Gravitycollapse]

24. The difference, however, is that the vast majority of them don't go on a killing spree.

[lunasun]

30. He was a subscriber to a multitude of pick-up artist and "men's rights" accounts !!!

{police already know he was a subscriber to a multitude of pick-up artist and "men's rights" accounts, a likely perpetuator of Rodger's misogynistic worldview.

you are spot on !!

[roguevalley]

31. I skimmed through this and sort of came to the

conclusion that this kid was superficial and self centered driven to feeling superior by the opportunities he was given. he says his father impegnated his mother. What kind of person says that? His contempt for woman is early on and grows.

He's selfish, self obsessed and hung up on superficialities. Everything in his life is great and grand, everyone awesome and he spends a lot of time talking about the superior level of his conditions. I don't see him as someone who had a clue about himself or his obligation to others.

His parents raised a primadonna who was crushed by divorce. His dad got a girlfriend right away and he thought this is what men did. That he never could get one with his crappy attitude blew his mind. His dad did. Why couldn't he? He was also short and it bugged him. He was talking about being thwarted by girls from seven years old. This is a listing of his awesomeness year by year. I couldn't do that. He is so self obsessed he can.

'Jealousy and envy-those two feelings would dominate my entire life.' he talks about how at nine what he felt about others not liking to play with him would be nothing like when 'puberty would hit' and girls would choose others over him. He dreaded and hated his stepmother and loved his mom's house best because she didn't use 'harsh' discipline. He wanted to be cool, to fit in, to be special.

This kid's sense of grievance is amazing. He remembers the names of kids from first grade. It goes on and on. I think its important to study this stuff to find these kids early onward. Consider it intel. Without it, we will be endangering ourselves enormously. This is one sick kid.

[Cali_Democrat]

41. ....ya I skimmed it to and every paragraph I skimmed was jaw dropping

he dropped out of college and decided to bank his entire life on the lottery.

...it's almost like a parody.....

[ellisonz]

48. ...

[Blue_Tires]

56. megalomania, delusions of grandeur, etc...

when the reality of the world starts creeping in and the delusion of being a special snowflake starts cracking and the person with this mindset discovers that he isn't ruling the world Lex Luthor-style when he grows up; the backlash can manifest itself in some horrifically ugly ways...I can personally attest to this, having a childhood with at least a few similarities to his...

I know it's too easy and simplistic to blame the parents, but holy damn there was no end to their enabling...The fact that he lived to 22 without a proper "reality check" is beyond the pale...(I'd had mine much, much earlier in life)...

[valerief]

80. Even the lottery was against him. I found it most amazing that kept expecting to win

Mega Millions. That's just plain stupid. I guess delusional and stupidity are closer than I thought.

[betsuni]

19. The tone of the memoir was familiar

First I saw one of his videos and thought: "It rubs the lotion on its skin." The tone of the memoir seems so familiar, a primitive, artless attempt at "Crime and Punishment"? Then I remembered. The psycho narrator in John Lanchester's novel "The Debt to Pleasure." Excellent book.

[AngryAmish]

72. Does it resemble the Unibomber Monifesto?

Superior, narcissistic etc?

[JHB]

98. It exudes a sense of superioity and narcisissm, but bears no resembence to the Unibomber Manifesto

It's not a political tract, unless it turns that way at the very end -- by which time I'd stopped reading sections. It's a childish, year by year litany of of every slight he's imagined, of everything he felt had been done wrong against him.

He makes Kazynski sound like the soul of humility.

[valerief]

20. He's an affluenza assoholic waste of oxygen. nt

[cali]

21. No. He was a sociopath/psychopath. That he had an affluent background may have enhanced that

but affluence was not the cause of his murderous rampage.

[Gravitycollapse]

32. He seems too preoccupied with the acceptance of others to be a psychopath.

Based on the 25% or so of his manifesto that I've read, he seems to be pathologically narcissistic. Basically his manifesto is a story of an average child which is on occasion interjected with one or two statements of deep hatred for those who have perceived success and beauty to which he deeply aspires. He doesn't hate beauty or success. He hates that all of the beauty and success is not revolving around him.

Events that seem inconsiderable or singular are defining moments in his life. He used one example of a girl who was a bully to justify the kick starting of his general hatred of women.

Is this actually how his childhood went? I don't think we'll ever know. It would be impossible to decipher the real story from his revisionism. But it is at least an insight into his mind later in life.

[cali]

58. he didn't want to be accepted. he wanted to dominate because of his self-perceived superiority.

that's clear from the memoir thing.

[H2O Man]

67. Right.

That's very important.

It's not that he "wanted" to be "accepted" ......it was that he was furious that he wasn't elevated to the high level he was convinced he was destined -- and ENTITLED -- to.

[cali]

69. hi, H20 Man, how are things in northern NY?

I hope you have the splendid day that we're enjoying here in Northern Vt. Now to go transplant some unhappy little guys.

[H2O Man]

77. The weather is beautiful!

Perfect day to play some Beatles music while working in the gardens. And, of course, soon I'll hobble out to the pond, to feed the fish and birds, and probably cook out.

Right now, I'm the only one here .....but soon enough, my children and their friends will be arriving.

I hope that you have a great weekend, too!

[Mojo Electro]

82. He's not a psychopath.

Psychopaths tend to be good with women, especially ones with money. They have the uncanny ability to appear charming and sincere.

He was just an angry, entitled little asshole who went off the deep end because he couldn't get laid, and then murdered 7 people.

[H2O Man]

86. Some are

"good" with other people, male and female. Others are not.

It is important to examine an individual's relationship with others -- including, in this case, the opposite sex. But his failure to charm does not, in and of itself, exclude him from being a sociopath.

[Mojo Electro]

92. True.

I think a lot of his rhetoric, though, about "wanting to be loved" and such, seems uncharacteristic of a psychopath.

[okojo]

99. I don't know what personality disorder that Elliot Rodgers had, but it could be sociopath

Those with an anti social personality disorder, can feel no empathy for others. They can't feel emotions, and can only mimic emotions. They may not even be good in manipulating people. Much like many murderers will try to show grief to hide their crimes, (like killing a spouse, or a family member, but they can only mimic grief, which is a very difficult emotion to emulate, and it is more than crying)

I am more in the camp that Elliot Rodgers had a schizoid personality disorder or a schizotypal personality disorder. He appeared to have problems in relating to people, and his thought process seemed to be warped and not understanding social cues, and having a difficult time in picking up other people's emotions, or why he was getting the reaction he was from people.

In his last video, He seemed to be mimicking laughter, more to get his point across, and the persona he wanted to be. It looks like he practice this last video a bit before putting it up on his youtube channel. His sense of entitlement and his rage are probably the only true things he felt, while the laughter, some of his mannerisms, are more mimics because he can't feel them, like many with an anti social personality disorder...

[ellisonz]

46. +1

[billhicks76]

23. I Don't have Empathy Either

But none of us should pretend we know him. The money, cars or parental love didn't mean anything to him as he gavr them all up. He is obviously super disturbed and I wouldn't be making affluenza connections just yet. It's definitely not his looks if he was unsuccessful with girls. He does look like a very small, frail kid and from what I've seen of bullying those are the kids that are picked on and other weak kids always jump in and join the bullying the strong kids do so they feel stronger when they are not and it snowballs. There will be no easy answers. I should read his manifesto and maybe that will help. Seems like a perfect storm of sociopath, spoiled snobbery, helplessness, bullying and lack of friends and most probably brain wiring gone awry.

[billhicks76]

25. Stabbed?

And he stabbed 3 or 4 roommates? He must've really tricked them because he is tiny.

[valerief]

83. Or doped them somehow to subdue them. nt

[maced666]

26. Narcissism run amok.

So much in this country. Eventual mass killers wrap themselves in a narcissist towel early in life.
When they grow older it becomes impossible to bear and impossible to shed as life's realities expose the truth. That they are not the end all be all.
So they snap.

[ellennelle]

33. asperger's

cali, not sure what your experience with psychological profiles, but my phd is in cognitive and clinical psychology; i do neuropsychological and psychological evaluations, and have done hundreds of these for schools, parents, and legal cases.

first let me say the current diagnostic 'categories' as laid out in the dsm are unhelpful, to put it kindly. well, they're helpful for the insurance companies, but that's about it. and maybe for the drug companies when they do their studies.

that said, second, i watched a couple of his videos, and read a bit of his manifesto (screed; whatever), and while there are many aspects of narcissism and sociopathy in his presentation, the strongest quality of his presentation is asperger's. indeed, the hallmark of asperger's is lack of empathy. they also have little conscience or sense of consequence for their actions or attitudes, because they lack a capacity to grasp the bigger picture, one that would include others, hence the lack of empathy.

yes, he's a snob. yes, he's entitled. but these follow logically and naturally within the frame of asperger's. that is not to say that all individuals with an asperger's profile will look like this; there is so much variability, and the professional community has not figured out how to conceptualize the pattern as yet. (i'm actually working on a book that hopefully captures it - and other psych diagnoses - better.)

it's also important to recognize that the development of this pattern is tricky to catch. it's only become a bona fide diagnosis in recent years; few diagnosticians know how to really spot it in youngsters, and therefore few know how to treat it. actually, i'd say no one knows how to treat it because no one knows what it is. in any case, faulting his parents for missing it is not entirely fair. what's kind of off-putting about the profile is how well these kids perform and function in so many areas of modern life, often getting good grades, and learning the rules of behavior (tho missing the nuance and spontaneity and natural aspects, where their failures grab attention and often creep folks out, they can seem so automaton).

please make no mistake, i am by no measure excusing his actions. but at the same time, i caution against casting blame prematurely and without understanding. just as an exercise, compare this kid's presentation with adam lanza's; exceedingly different, yet so many overlaps in their symptoms. this is sadly the nature of asperger's and our understanding of those who suffer from it.

so, imho, it seems steady watchfulness is in order now while we get more info, and avoid the understandable impulse to cast blame. in fact, i have to say mr. martinez expressed my sentiments - and i think the appropriate ones at this stage - that the culprits are the NRA and cowardly politicians.

just my 2 cents worth.

[Live and Learn]

39. +1 nt

[gvstn]

40. I look at this video from 2010 so he was 17/18y.o.

This is some type of party where he is recording his friends and the party. My quick glance around that table and the friends that he is presumably closest with, says there is some social awkwardness going on there (the guy giving the finger doesn't quite "play it off" like your usual 18 year old). If this were a middle school lunch table it would seem very normal but for a group of 18 year olds it seems a bit unusual.

I think there is something more to this kid's emotional state then just a spoiled brat. I grant he is unlikeable but not that he is simply entitled and a jerk but that he just doesn't get some social signals and is frustrated about it. Cali, I think of sociopaths as not caring and using that to their advantage, I see this kid as not caring and not understanding how to fix it or why to fix it. I see him spiraling into mental illness not starting out with it and using it to his advantage.

[seaglass]

42. His last psychiatrist prescribed risperidone which he refused to take. He had Xanax but didn't

mention anything other drugs.

[defacto7]

44. This is the nail hit squarely on the head.

Thanks ellennelle. Also I find your user name artistic. Not the mirrored effect but in an x/y graph sort of way, binary with a demarcation for balance. Nice.

[yuiyoshida]

49. +1 nt

[DonCoquixote]

55. ok you

"indeed, the hallmark of asperger's is lack of empathy. they also have little conscience or sense of consequence for their actions or attitudes, because they lack a capacity to grasp the bigger picture, one that would include others, hence the lack of empathy. "


This aspie has plenty of empathy, ther problem is, we are very sensitive, and people will try to abuse that by yelling at you, or tryign some way to make you react like they think you should. Just because w do nto understand social cues does nto mean we do not emapthize with people, instead, we are often confused, and frustrated, especially when people assume you are a robot because you do not giggle like they do. The whole "aspies have no empathy" is a slur, right up there with racial and sexist ones. Just because we do not respond to YOUR cues does not mean we ignore you, indeed, we are often much more conscious of you and normal behavior than you will EVER be.

Keep the slurs to yourself.

[dawg]

61. +1000

Many aspies/autistics are very empathetic. Once they can be made to understand how others are feeling, they care very much. They just suck at reading the cues that would help them to realize that someone feels sad or hurt. But once they figure it out, they can be very caring and empathetic.

[freeplessinseattle]

66. +100!! that post you responded to was very offensive

full of ignorance, and lacking in empathy for many fellow duers

[defacto7]

95. She is speaking to a non-aspie audience

That's the way they hear what she says. Within that context she makes very reasonable remarks. We may not like it but it's another script we write to understand non-aspies. Does she need to change her presentation? Sure, if we low level autistics are her only audience.

Slurs are relative.

What is really unacceptable are those who are connecting low level autism to criminal behavior and adjust their attitudes toward low level autism as a racist would toward a different race. In one venue they fight for equality and justice and human rights, but under these circumstances they act in a highly prejudicial manner. It's that hypocrisy that shows who really has the empathy, who is just angry, or who is just acting in sympathy.

[DonCoquixote]

97. ok, but

the reason why I wrote my response was to point out that she is doing just that, using the same tropes that were used to demonize people. I mean, how many times have you seen the racist say "Blacks/Jews/Arabs/inster race here have NO EMPATHY." Go look at the Racist sites and you will hear that note played more often then a top 40 single. Yes, she may be speaking to non aspies, but she at the very least should have put in the disclaimer that "no aspies are not bad people."

Unless she belives they are, in which case, she gets the slings and arrows of this aspie.

[defacto7]

104. Understood.

We can just look up or down thread and see the misconceptions and blatant prejudicial brush splattering like thanking someone for info that tells them what the condition is that is responsible for the tragedy. That's the same logic as saying... thanks for telling us what race is responsible for the Holocaust.

I will back off though to say that most people who say such things really don't know what they are saying. It's a habit like lacking political correctness. Habits have to be unlearned as a part of the process of learning empathy, which goes back to the point of who really is lacking empathy here.

"blatant prejudicial brush splattering" That's a good tongue twister.

[Jamastiene]

112. +100000

I am sickened that people are lumping Aspies into the same category as mass shooters too. Having Asperger's does not mean someone cannot feel empathy. That is sickening that someone would claim that. It is categorically false.

So far, I have seen all mentally ill lumped in with these mass murdering fuckheads, like we are all just plotting stuff like this all the time, all of us, too. They have tried to say the guy was gay too, even though he hated men and wanted to have sex with women. And now, they are trying to push this off on Aspies too. In all cases they are using misinformation and even outright disinformation to do so too. I'm sickened by all of it. The guy was a mass murdering fuckhead with a gun. That fact is what people need to face instead of trying to stigmatize entire groups of people for what the mass murdering fuckhead with the gun did.

[LittleBlue]

76. You should post more

I haven't followed this story too closely, but the few snippets I've read mention Asperger's without explaining it well.

Thank you.

[flamingdem]

90. +1 for good information

and it behooves society to learn about the condition/s that caused this tragedy.

[defacto7]

96. The condition did not cause this tragedy.

His condition caused this tragedy and his condition has much to do with the condition of society.

[DonCoquixote]

94. conscience

" they also have little conscience or sense of consequence for their actions or attitudes, because they lack a capacity to grasp the bigger picture, one that would include others, hence the lack of empathy. "

Like some people that will use words that demonize agroup of people and not realize that they are doing harm, or do not care.

We do have consciences, again, just because we have trouble readign cues, and YOU have trouble reading ours, does not make us the little robots without conscience you paint us as. Indeed, my conscience is speaking because while I know I have been abe to get therapy and support, many other aspies, and those who love them, will not, and they will be harmed as some charlatan peddler of falsehood sells them a remedy. I am speaking because I know myths like yours make them suffer.

[McCamy Taylor]

34. Hard to diagnosis the dead.

I watched the video, I read the diary. He was definitely depressed and definitely addicted to gambling and probably alcohol. His affect in the video is all wrong, but he reminds me more of schizophrenics I have known than autistics. Not sure an autistic would have so much emotion. The diary is full of fear and rage. If he was schizo-affective, he might have been ok until the last year or so of his life.

Guns and mental illness do not mix, that is certain.

[cali]

59. He doesn't remind me remotely of any schizophrenic I've known or worked with.

and he was clearly not OK from a very early age. If you read the memoir, he makes that clear- going back to when he was no more than 4 or 5.

[adirondacker]

35. The dude probably had a promising career on Wall St. given his personality trait.

I'm not one to usually play internet psychiatrist, but I think you're probably pretty close on the diagnosis cali.

[woolldog]

38. No way.

Just looking at his vids the guy ooozed creepiness. He would never get past the interview stage. I-bankers are socio paths. But they're charming, likable, normal seeming sociopaths at least.

[Blue_Tires]

52. It's possible

If he stayed on his meds and was halfway competent in an office setting I'm sure his dad could have pulled some strings and gotten him hired somewhere...He wouldn't have been on any promotion fast-track, though and if there were any young+attractive female co-workers the dude would be an automatic sexual harassment complaint...

[woolldog]

57. Maybe.

But have you seem these videos? Anyone interviewing him would've known there's something off about him. Just the way he pronounces his words is weird...like a super villain in a movie. That laugh is weird. Movie like. Was he on his meds when he made those videos? That's why he couldn't get a woman. He was a weirdo. If u can't get a girlfriend you're not going to get a job at Goldman Sachs. The type of guys hired on Wall Street are the exact opposite of this guy. In fact, they're the type of guy he's complaining about in his manifesto.

[ellennelle]

36. definitely NOT schizophrenic, nor schizo-affective

there is nothing psychotic about his presentation, i agree with cali there. he describes no delusions except grandeur, and that seems secondary, almost as an excuse to do what he plans to do.

this quibbling over the proper diagnosis, tho, exposes part of the problem of the mental health profession. namely, the whole conceptualization has broken down. the medical model does not and CANnot apply to almost all mental processes. the only ones that are straightforward are dementias, delirium, and schizophrenia. the rest are breakdowns in mental processes. and no one has a clue how those work, much less how they translate in the brain. and finding bright spots on an mri only tell you what mental process might be happening there (sorta), not how.

and again, there is nothing about his presentation that is schizophrenic. the tell is that his language - tho chilling - is way too logical and measured. nothing of the word salad you see with florid, unmedicated schizophrenia.

anyway, i find it interesting that martinez, the grieving father, is calling for the head of politicians and the NRA. rodger's father is blaming the mental health profession.

not an either/or here.

[defacto7]

47. Isn't there some kind of tell

in that his father has it ass backward? I think you sited it correctly in your last post, "the culprits are the NRA and cowardly politicians" That could not be more true. Blaming the mental health profession is like blaming the universe for treating you unfairly.

[H2O Man]

68. Well said;

well-reasoned. Right on target.

[woolldog]

37. I'm reading his manifesto now...

and the thing that strikes me the most is how much he moved around as a kid. From one country to the next, one school to the next, then his parents divorced, then constantly changing houses and apartments and schools. The kid had no stability in his life. And it seems like his parents treated him like he was a piece of luggage. I wonder if things wouldve been different if he had had more stability.

[pnwmom]

45. How do we know what his parents tried to do?

[defacto7]

50. It's pretty well defined and documented

that this person was mentally unstable and off the path of civility, maybe some lower than normal connectivity between the hippocampus and prefrontal cortex or some wild oligodendrocytes early in development, we don't know. But reading through the comments still makes me wonder what the definition of normal really is. There are seemingly normal people doing heinous things and seemingly unusual people doing heinous things and accusations vented toward personality traits that seem... out of the ordinary.

I hope we aren't trying to find the odd-man-out for the purpose of protecting society or ourselves because we will never find anyone more odd or even than ourselves and human nature is not a democracy.

If we had known this person before he committed these murders using our vast info bank of his past life as reference, how would we have treated him? the same way as others in these videos? Differently? Would that choice be considered normal?

This person was ill in one way or another, mental, psychological, environmental, brain injured, or a genetic roll of the dice. There is something to being careful, considering dangerous people do exist. But the only tool we really have in our personal armory is our own responsibility for ourselves and how we react to others. There is no predicting others acts based on our perceptions of normal or odd.

[DontTreadOnMe]

53. I think the bigger topic should be the "murder spree"

It seems we now have a generation, when unhappy and all seems hopeless.. the way out is a gun spraying murder spree.

It's a way of saying "look at me".

There are plenty of people who get severe depression... and then there is the common thread that they go get a gun and start shooting people... do they think the shooting of people solves their anger for attention.. or is it the media attention they want to "get" after the act of killing.

The problem I see is this is a growing trend.. and each murder spree will have to "top" the previous. They will need to get more violent, more people killed.. to make the headlines. IF the last guy killed 25... you need to kill 50 mentality.

This mass murder trend is something we need to address now.

[valerief]

64. I wonder how successful these murder sprees would be if our culture wasn't

bombarded with gun lust. If guns weren't worshipped and so easy to get, if violence wasn't so glorified and romanticized by our media, his anger may have been channeled into something less than fatal.

[GreenEyedLefty]

60. I have no background in psychology, but there isn't a scintilla of doubt in my mind

That "killing" was somehow embedded in this kid's DNA. He was all but destined to be a killer of some kind... serial, rampage, whatever.

I don't think there is any explanation, even his own, that will suffice for "why" he did what he did.

His writing has that same emotional disconnect that reminded me of Eric Harris's pre-Columbine ramblings. His memories were factual but lacked any feeling. I don't think he could fake emotions, or charm, or any sense of social normalcy even if he wanted to. Simply put, he was dead from the neck up. No amount of therapy or drugs or gun control could fix that.

[Abq_Sarah]

106. Some things can't be fixed

After reading his "manifesto" I got the impression that there were plenty of warning signs that were ignored by just about everyone but his stepmother and grandmother. Even if he hadn't gone on a killing spree and killed himself, he was never going to have a normal life.

[boston bean]

63. He got his twisted thinking from MRA sites.

This stuff is nothing new to people who actually read these sites and are appalled at the absolute sense of entitlement they feel to women and the misogyny dripping off their tongues.

[cali]

70. his thinking was twisted by the time he was a very young child. that is crystal clear in his 141

page memoir/manifesto. Not saying that didn't contribute, but imo, not a huge factor. And I am very familiar with the MRA crap.

[boston bean]

74. I think his view of his childhood written when he was older

was molded by the MRA"s he was hanging out with on line. Everything wrong in his life turned out to be because of women.

He used their twisted ideology to justify his actions. I disagree and think it is a huge factor. He sounded just like them. That don't come from not hanging with them. They most definitely molded his feelings.

[malaise]

65. Do you wonder why they sent him off to an all-male English

boarding school? Maybe they didn't want him around or they didn't want to deal with obvious problems. Maybe they wanted their very own little Lord Fauntleroy.
Who do you think bought him that high end car? Maybe he was given every material trinket in the book with a view to demonstrating 'status', to give him his 'fix' or to make him happy (or because they could afford the trinkets). And we wonder why he turned out to be a self-centered, entitled, narcissistic psychopath.

Read the manifesto - he thought he would succeed with girls if he 'dressed in the right clothes'. It was all about things for this sicko. Apparently they or he managed to buy everything except love and affection.

My reading of him is that he bought the entire TV illusion of life and never faced reality for a single day. When life didn't live up to his fantasies, he blamed everyone but himself.

[cali]

71. I read every word of the manifesto. sociopath/psychopath- and I've worked with both

under the PAIMI program. I worked with people who were psychotic when they murdered and I much prefer them to the sociopath/psychopaths. Much.

[malaise]

79. He was one sick human being

Everything was memememememememememememememememememe and his obsession with 'cool'.

[Abq_Sarah]

107. His manifesto

Strongly suggests sociopath. Serious delusions of grandeur. He didn't believe he had to work to make friends or get a girlfriend, people were supposed to fall at his feet and worship his greatness.

[WinkyDink]

73. He wanted the sexiest dames and didn't realize he was a weirdo to them.

[boston bean]

75. He wasn't just looking to get laid. He deserved the ones

society tells him is hot. And if he couldn't have them, it wasn't because of him, it was because of them.

It fits perfectly well with MRA ideology.

[WinkyDink]

110. Exactly. And to think: He was a "gentleman," not one of those lucky "brutes"!

[TBF]

91. Here we go again -

determined to blame it on "individual is a madman" rather than the society around him that contributed to the psychosis.

So typical.

[defacto7]

93. Agreed

But I think it is both a mental and societal. There is no doubt society is like the launchpad for uncivilized behavior. If someone has mental or social issues their societal environment can "make or break" that person.

[TBF]

101. That's a good way to put it -

I agree with your analysis.